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GlockFan
04-05-2004, 03:14 PM
Hello.

As I was browsing ammolab, I came across the 147 grain SXT.

At first I was interested in the 147 grain Ranger T round, but after seeing those results I dont think it would be a great round for self defense.

Then, someone told me that the SXT and Ranger T were different, and that the Ranger T performs better than the SXT.

My question is was the 147 grain load the SXT or RA9T, and will the 147 grain RA9T perform well out of a Glock 19?

Thank you for your time!

Steve Camp
04-05-2004, 05:53 PM
My question is was the 147 grain load the SXT or RA9T, and will the 147 grain RA9T perform well out of a Glock 19?


I defer to the educated opinion of Mr. DiFabio, and await his reply. I think he will say the RA9T will perform well out of a Glock 19 and that, generally speaking, any Winchester Ranger T round (NOT SXT) performs well.

As I understand it, SXT bullets can be recognized by their eight "petals", where as Ranger T rounds only have six "petals". If I am mistaken, I trust someone here will correct me.

The general opinion I have read on this board is that Ranger T <anything> is generally pretty good, but don't waste your time with Ranger SXT, there are better rounds than the SXT (Remington Golden Sabre springs to mind).

As to whether the 9mm 147gr rounds tested at ammolab and shown at 9mm Test Results Section 1 (http://www.ammolab.com/9mm_section1.htm) are SXT or Ranger T, I don't know.

Al Lipscomb
04-05-2004, 07:13 PM
The SXT is not as good of a bullet as the Ranger series. In general there are several bullets that work better, this would include the Gold Dot and Golden Saber line as well as the Ranger "T" series.

To quote Dr. Gary Roberts from another forum:

"In our experience, there is a significant difference in terminal performance between the Ranger Talon and civilian SXT's. Unlike the civilian SXT's, Ranger Talons offer more consistent performance, more robust expansion against heavy clothing, better performance against glass, and are unlikely to exhibit core-jacket separation. I personally would carry Gold Dots (9mm 124 gr +P, .40 S&W 180 gr, or .45 ACP 230 gr) before I would use the civilian SXT's."

bill clancy
04-06-2004, 03:50 PM
Hmmm...I have a box or two of Law enforcement Ranger SXTs in 9mm with six petals. where do these fall in the spectrum? They were given to me during a Sheriff sponsered CCW refresher class ateended while volunteering for the county search & rescue group.

westdesrat
04-06-2004, 05:19 PM
Guys, there are actually three different types of Winchester 9mm JHP ammo on the market out there (not including the USA JHP).

1. "Civilian" Winchester Supreme SXT, 147 grain, nickled casing, copper bullet. This bullet is the one that doesn't perform very well, and supposedly uses the same type of reverse taper jacket as the LE ammo, minus the talons. IIRC the primer on these rounds is silver/nickle in color. 20 round boxes.

2. "old" Ranger SXT loads, 127gr +P+ and 147gr, brass cases, black coated bullets. Often mistakenly called "Black Talon", but is a later generation of the original black talon bullet-- IIRC. These have the "talons" and are better than Supreme SXT. Part numbers on the boxes include "SXT". 50 round boxes.

3. "New" Ranger T loads, 127gr +P+ and 147gr, copper bullets, nickled casings. Primers are brass colored, unlike #1 above. Has the "talons" like the Ranger SXT, but has been "tweaked" (hows that for a technical term?) to preform better in certain aspects of the FBI tests (the heavy clothing and barrier tests, IIRC) part numbers are for the 127gr +P+ RA9TA and the 147gr RA9T. 50 round boxes

If I'm totally off base here, David will correct me, but I think this sums it up. I'd say either #2 or #3 would be better than #1... #3 being the "latest and greatest"

I have carried both #2 and #3 in my XD-9 Subcompact...and they do expand quite well in my un-scientific wet newsprint and water tests. I think they would work fine in a G19.

tktm
04-07-2004, 01:09 PM
, but has been "tweaked" (hows that for a technical term?) to preform better in certain aspects of the FBI tests (the heavy clothing and barrier tests, IIRC) .

I wonder about the differences between the RA9sxt and RA9TA, both are 127 grain +p+ "talon" bullets. The RA9SXT has the black coated bullet and a brass case, the RA9TA has a nickel case and no black coating (those are the obvious differences). But in tests I have read the RA9TA is prone to losing its jacket. The older RA9SXT was known for NOT losing its jacket. It makes me wonder what changes they have made, other than the obvious stuff.

Also lately the RA9TA is appearing much more frequently on the market as available to "civilians", I wager winchester is cleaning inventory to make way for an another version. This time I wager it has a nickel case and a black bullet :-)

tktm
04-07-2004, 03:11 PM
See my post above for performance differences, .

above you gave the product code for the 147 grain, but I see you meant the 127 grain ie RA9t (147) or RA9TA (127). In any case it would be nice to see some side by side comparisons of the older 127 grain (ra9sxt) vs the newer 127 grain (ra9ta). It would be interesting to see the perfromance differences the "tweaking" did.

Edit:

hell, wouldn't you know I did almost the same darn mistake
Everywhere I put, RA9SXT it SHOULD read RA9SXTP

ColoradoPacker
04-07-2004, 10:23 PM
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2468014#post2468014

On winchester.com they have a new round, the 124gr.+p ranger t ammo. Here are the test results from "winchester.com"

-penetration(in.)
-expansion(in.)
-retained weight%
-retained weight

1) Baregelatin
2) 4plydenim
3) heavycloth
4) wallboard
5) plywood
6) steel
7) autoglass


124gr.(1180fps)
1) 12.2- 0.70- 94%- 116
2) 13.9- 0.67- 95%- 118
3) 13.3- 0.68- 95%- 118
4) 14.0- 0.66- 97%- 120
5) 13.1- 0.65- 95%- 118
6) 18.9- 0.40- 100%-124
7) 10.6- 0.48- 57%- 71

127gr.(1250fps)
1) 12.3- 0.64- 93%- 118
2) 12.5- 0.68- 97%- 123
3) 12.2- 0.68- 97%- 123
4) 12.1- 0.66- 96%- 122
5) 12.0- 0.68- 95%- 121
6) 20.5- 0.40- 100%-127
7) 9.40- 0.48- 58%- 74


147gr.(990fps)
1) 13.9- 0.65- 96%- 141
2) 14.5- 0.66- 98%- 144
3) 14.0- 0.66- 97%- 143
4) 15.0- 0.67- 98%- 144
5) 14.8- 0.62- 100%-147
6) 17.0- 0.45- 100%-147
7) 10.8- 0.52- 72%- 106

*Test used on 4in. barrels

tktm
04-09-2004, 04:32 AM
No, actually I was discussing all 147gr products and the load mentioned in the AmmoLab.com link the RA9SXT is indeed a 147gr product as is the S9 and the RA9T.

The correct pre-2000 Ranger product code for the 127gr loading known now as the RA9TA is the RA9SXTP.

Ok, I follow now. So just to clarify, is there any difference between the pre 2000 127 grain +p+ and the post 2000 127 grain +p+ ?

tktm
04-09-2004, 10:17 AM
Yes, the post 2k bullet is designed to offer more rapid expansion and more robust denim barrier performance and the jacket is scored using a modified die to a deeper depth. This is the primary reason that core/jacket seperations are often seen with the RA9TA

thanks, thats what i was wondering about.

GlockFan
04-09-2004, 04:16 PM
Thanks for all your help.

BTW I never saw the RA9TA separate through bare gelatin. The only times it did were through hard barriers such as plywood and autoglass.

tktm
04-09-2004, 05:04 PM
Thanks for all your help.

BTW I never saw the RA9TA separate through bare gelatin. The only times it did were through hard barriers such as plywood and autoglass.

here are the links to the tests showing jacket seperation, take note of the firearm type, a few involve mp5's. Also note this is data from a competitor. The last one is probably the best one.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/Pierce%20County%20Workshop.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/San.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/PortlandWoundBallisticReport1.pdf

GlockFan
04-09-2004, 06:16 PM
here are the links to the tests showing jacket seperation, take note of the firearm type, a few involve mp5's. Also note this is data from a competitor. The last one is probably the best one.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/Pierce%20County%20Workshop.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/San.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/PortlandWoundBallisticReport1.pdf

Those were also from a G17. Im not 100 percent sure about this, but I doubt the G19 will get a high enough velocity to experience a separation (from what I heard, 1300 FPS is when the separations start to occur in bare gelatin).