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DocLRRP
09-22-2006, 10:37 AM
Pavel, one of the founders of Kettle Ball Training (Dragon) is a firm believer in hard workouts without a warmup. His rationale is that if you are attacked, you cannot warm up nor will your assailant give you the time to do so.
Because I deal in Rehabilitation, my clients absolutely need to warm up before the workout gets difficult. But, their seems to be some validity to what he is saying. Having been in combat, I can relate somewhat to what he is saying. But, because it was so long ago,41 years, the muscle memory is their but my cognitive memory just can't recall the exact feelings.
What are your thoughts?

LMGBeliever
09-22-2006, 11:20 AM
I think this falls in the same category as hitting without gloves on, as in, do it once and a while so that you understand that feeling, but don't risk injury with it. No reason to tear or pull a muscle, but not a reason why you couldn't arrive at the gym and immediately box (with gear), fight with padded sticks ect... In your mind you will always know what's coming but it will help overcome the "sudden rush"

Guantes
09-22-2006, 12:14 PM
If you use a little common sense, I don't see a problem. Cops frequently go from sitting in a car to a full on fight and the injury rate is (or at least use to be) relatively small from it. I was always more worried about some over enthusiastic cop popping me with a sap then pulling a muscle.

Cold War Scout
09-22-2006, 12:16 PM
If you use a little common sense, I don't see a problem. Cops frequently go from sitting in a car to a full on fight and the injury rate is (or at least use to be) relatively small from it. I was always more worried about some over enthusiastic cop popping me with a sap then pulling a muscle.

I took every opportunity to stretch that I could out there on the street. Even the occasional jumping jacks.

Al Lipscomb
09-22-2006, 12:30 PM
Does the bodies "fight or flight" system provide some of the effects of warming up?

Cold War Scout
09-22-2006, 01:11 PM
Does the bodies "fight or flight" system provide some of the effects of warming up?

From my experience, I have been in situations and altercations in which significant and sudden physical activity was involved, but I felt no semblance of fight or flight come on. The chemical cocktail was not released.

Al Lipscomb
09-22-2006, 01:25 PM
What I was getting at is the danger of pulling something reduced because of the "fight or flight" reactions. Contrast that to normal exercise where it would be more imporatant to warm up as the body is still in "low gear".

ISRAELI EXTREMIST
09-22-2006, 02:39 PM
I never warm up before downhill skiing or cycling I just start easy and I never had a problem with any pulled muscles or injuries relating to this exercises.

Also when I used to Wrestle and Judo in Israel when I was young we did not even know that we had to warm up first but here before starting a sesion of KENPO we used to start easy and then get faster and faster and of course by the time that we started sparring we were really warmed up.

Cold War Scout
09-22-2006, 02:49 PM
I never warm up before downhill skiing or cycling I just start easy and I never had a problem with any pulled muscles or injuries relating to this exercises.

Also when I used to Wrestle and Judo in Israel when I was young we did not even know that we had to warm up first but here before starting a sesion of KENPO we used to start easy and then get faster and faster and of course by the time that we started sparring we were really warmed up.

The operative words....

Cold War Scout
09-22-2006, 02:52 PM
What I was getting at is the danger of pulling something reduced because of the "fight or flight" reactions. Contrast that to normal exercise where it would be more imporatant to warm up as the body is still in "low gear".

If I am not mistaken the chemical cocktail induced by true fight or flight (not just stress but real fight or flight) masks pain and injury. I seem to recall hearing that the women who have picked up cars to save their children also ripped numerous muscles/tendons/ligaments in their bodies and had to be hospitalized as a consequence. Injury still occurs. The chemicals help mask it so that you can survive but afterwards there may be physical hell to pay.

Firecop71
09-22-2006, 03:03 PM
I am a huge fan of Pavel and generally consider him as expert as anyone in the field but not warming up is an invite to injuries. Now of course, it is all relative to the type of workout you are doing ie heavy weights will require a longer ramp up than lighter weights or body weight training but in general, it is like not wearing protective gear when sparring full contact. You could argue that that is not how it will be in real life but you wont be able to train often due to the injuries. I am to the point after learning the hard way/injuries and age that my typical warm up lasts longer than my actual workout. Another way to "warm up", is to do your GPP type work as a prelude to your harder work. JMHO

DocLRRP
09-22-2006, 03:20 PM
If I am not mistaken the chemical cocktail induced by true fight or flight (not just stress but real fight or flight) masks pain and injury. I seem to recall hearing that the women who have picked up cars to save their children also ripped numerous muscles/tendons/ligaments in their bodies and had to be hospitalized as a consequence. Injury still occurs. The chemicals help mask it so that you can survive but afterwards there may be physical hell to pay.

THE FOLLOWING IS NOT A CHALLENGE TO WHAT YOU WROTE:
The adrenaline rush will definetly mask pain from injury as will the epinephrine respose. But, in the case of the people who lift immense weights, i.e. cars, boulders, or any weight that is abnormally heavy in comparison to their weight, the injuries truly will be "Hell to Pay". But, let us say that someone like you who trains hard for combat on avery regular basis is forced into an immediate energy expenditure where hard, sustained movement is involved. You may be stiff for a short time or, the adrenaline effect may actually excite the indogenous endorphines (the body's own narcotic system) into a residual pain relief. But, it would seem, that all of your points have validity.

georgel
09-22-2006, 03:29 PM
This is an interesting discussion and I'd like to learn more about this. For me, all I can remember is when I was on the fencing team at school and I was late so I failed to warm up properly. I pulled a hamstring that day that bothered me for a couple of months afterwards.:(

This also seems focus based. If you're looking to improve your strength and endurance you're making different demands on your muscles than when you're trying to develop explosive power and speed.

Cold War Scout
09-22-2006, 03:32 PM
I have heard much ado recently about not needing to stretch before working out. Warm up, yes. Stretching, no. Well that flies in the face of my lifelong working out experience. New scientific evidence aside, I think I will stick with the tried and true.

Deaf Smith
09-22-2006, 03:38 PM
Just do this guys. Make the first part of your workout a bit light so you DO warm up while working out. Just do the weight sets light at first then pile it on.

As for streaching, I usually do a bit of weights to get the blood flowing, then do light streaching, then more workouts, then streaching, them more streaching... I do my kicks and punchs during the weight lifting (but not the bag, just shaddowboxing.) The idea of sitting there for a minute to rest inbetween sets just bores the dickens out of me. Rather do spinning heal kicks, then a set of weights, then back kicks, etc...

Only when I do the legs on the lifts do I stop kicking.

DocLRRP
09-22-2006, 06:36 PM
This is an interesting discussion and I'd like to learn more about this. For me, all I can remember is when I was on the fencing team at school and I was late so I failed to warm up properly. I pulled a hamstring that day that bothered me for a couple of months afterwards.:(

This also seems focus based. If you're looking to improve your strength and endurance you're making different demands on your muscles than when you're trying to develop explosive power and speed.

You have hit the nail on the perverbial head!! There is red (fast twitch) and grey (slow twitch ) muscle fiber. This is why a marathon runner trains differently than a sprinter. Different work types have different muscular demands.
My wife was a marathon runner before she hired me as her trainer to do her first body building show in 1999. The challenge was to increase fast twitch fiber and decrease slow twitch so that her workouts could be taiored to do the type of work necessary to cause hypertrophy (larger muscles). Over the five years that she did shows, there was a complete, NATURAL, change in her physical make up and her endurance levels.
She can lift heavy for hours, spend tons of time on the eliptical, but could not run a marathon anywhere near her old times.
At 131 pounds, she can squat 215 pounds and bench press her body weight for reps, but has an incredible level of flexibility and range of motion. She is tireless at work but needs to get her eight hours of sleep and watches her diet even though she has retired from competition over two years ago.The metamorphosis is amazing.

DocLRRP
09-22-2006, 06:45 PM
All of the previous discussions on this thread brings up the question which we are moving to:
"What is more important in a combat situation, Strength or Endurance?" If you could only pick one, which would it be??
This does not imply an ALL OR NOTHING SCENARIO. Just which is more important in combat.
Once you have decided for yourself, then, and only then can you properly set your goals and design your long term workout program.
(I am not trying to sell any services here)

3corners
10-21-2006, 11:22 PM
As a personal view I would have to say not strength OR endurance is more important in a combat situation but STRENGTH ENDURANCE!

If you have tried all out KO/Submission sparring with no time limit you will get what I mean.

Stay Safe
Jim

KravJeff
10-21-2006, 11:50 PM
As a personal view I would have to say not strength OR endurance is more important in a combat situation but STRENGTH ENDURANCE!

If you have tried all out KO/Submission sparring with no time limit you will get what I mean.

Stay Safe
Jim

Agreed - However, while for self defense purposes both (or a combination) can be important, I think that technique, and dealing with the stress response are more important than either. In SD we want to end a "confrontation" as quicly as possible, either by neutralizing the threat, or doing enough damage to escape (neither of which necessarily requires strength or endurance). That being said, I think endurance is more important for those trained in SD, for the fact that technique should overcome strength, and who knows, one may end up in a knock down drag out with multiple attackers that lasts several minutes ...

$0.02

3corners
10-22-2006, 02:31 AM
Hmmmm I would have to disagree with you that "technique" is more important!!
Very relevant to the original theme of this thread is the ability to go from 0 - 100 as quickly as possible for as long as necessary, call it aggression, state access, or whatever this I believe is far more important than technique. I would suggest that the hierachy of combat skills look something like this;
1. Mindset - willingness to do violence
2. Aggression / State access - trigger the violence
3. Strength Endurance - Do damage and Keep doing damage
4. Technique - improve ability to do damage
As one of the leading UK combatives instructors Mick Coup explains if you had 10secs to teach someone how to fight what would you do, basically tell them to Go Like F**k !!

Stay safe

Jim

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
10-22-2006, 03:21 AM
Several interesting posts here.

I think amongst them that CWS's point distinguishing stretching and warming up is one where many people commonly lack mental clarity.

I forget his name (Thomas Kurz? a Polish fellow who used to have pictures of himself doing full splits suspended between two chairs) but he said that PNF stretching enabled one to perform without warming up first (e.g. in an emergency) but that warming up first was a good idea.

He suggested doing his routine (light ballistic stretching, then the PNF) first thing in the morning and claimed that one was then "good-to-go" for the rest of the day-- interesting concept, especially for those of us who may have to perform unexpectedly.

3corners
10-22-2006, 04:15 AM
Marc could you explain what PNF stretching is?

thanks and regards

Jim

Cold War Scout
10-22-2006, 05:05 AM
All of the previous discussions on this thread brings up the question which we are moving to:
"What is more important in a combat situation, Strength or Endurance?" If you could only pick one, which would it be??
This does not imply an ALL OR NOTHING SCENARIO. Just which is more important in combat.
Once you have decided for yourself, then, and only then can you properly set your goals and design your long term workout program.
(I am not trying to sell any services here)


It's all situational. And you may have little control over the situation.

Locked in an elevator with a 250 lb. thug determined to kick your ass and take your wallet? That endurance may not matter one bit whereas strength might. About to get jumped by a dozen MS-13 gang bangers? That strength will not be sufficient to beat 12 guys. Some speed might be handy right about then.

Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
10-22-2006, 05:29 AM
PNF: Pro-Neuro_Facilitation (or something like that-- someone help me out please!)

The gist of it is taking an extended position, then isometrically tensing the muscle you seek to stretch for several breaths. Release the iso-contraction. You should now be able to extend your position further. Repeat until the effect of being able to extend your position further is no longer experienced.

I suggest reading a bit on this from sources which, unlike me, are properly informed about this method.

3corners
10-22-2006, 05:45 AM
Aha thanks Marc :D I'll look it up but sounds similar to some of the taijutsu stretching I used to do.

Cheers

Jim

DonGlock26
10-22-2006, 02:26 PM
If you use a little common sense, I don't see a problem. Cops frequently go from sitting in a car to a full on fight and the injury rate is (or at least use to be) relatively small from it. I was always more worried about some over enthusiastic cop popping me with a sap then pulling a muscle.


Cops die from that. Fitness level and age have a lot to do with what you can get away with. When I was running 2 miles everyday, a tussel on the street was easy(I'm a LEO). I really noticed the cardio conditioning. I had a tank full of gas and the other guy didn't.

Guantes
10-22-2006, 02:32 PM
"Fitness level and age have a lot to do with what what you can get away with."

I would submit that the foregoing is true whether utilizing a warmup or not.

DonGlock26
10-22-2006, 02:35 PM
"Fitness level and age have a lot to do with what what you can get away with."

I would submit that the foregoing is true whether utilizing a warmup or not.



Going from 0-60 isn't healthy for the unconditioned. That's all I'm saying.

Guantes
10-22-2006, 02:39 PM
No argument there.

Cold War Scout
10-22-2006, 03:02 PM
Going from 0-60 isn't healthy for the unconditioned. That's all I'm saying.

It can be less that ideal even for the conditioned. Especially as you get up in years and your flexibnility diminishes. A cop should stretch when he can, and even do a few Jumping Jacks here and there if he can get away with it.

I will add the below from a prior TREXPO thread (http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=16116&highlight=TREXPO):

1) You must be hydrated and have carbs (e.g. glucose) in your body in order to fight. Your body requires these in ample quantities in order for it to do its job. He was specifically making sure that cops who drink coffee all shift (and not water) and those who do not eat a meal before going on duty, know the total downside to this.

2) Have you ever trained on a range where you had to run some before shooting to simulate stress? He essentially said (what I had already long intuitively felt) that this does not even remotely resemble the physiological dynamics of combat stress because this type of range training "stress" does not result in the release of the powerful chemicals that really occur in combat when life and death is on the line.

3) When true life and death survival mechanics kick in, you have 22 seconds time before ATP depletion happens. Your performance after that degrades incredibly rapidly. After 30 seconds of fighting for your life, you will have only be able to perform at about 55% of your intensity level. That ain't a helluva lot of time

DonGlock26
10-22-2006, 06:24 PM
It can be less that ideal even for the conditioned. Especially as you get up in years and your flexibnility diminishes. A cop should stretch when he can, and even do a few Jumping Jacks here and there if he can get away with it.

I will add the below from a prior TREXPO thread (http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=16116&highlight=TREXPO):

1) You must be hydrated and have carbs (e.g. glucose) in your body in order to fight. Your body requires these in ample quantities in order for it to do its job. He was specifically making sure that cops who drink coffee all shift (and not water) and those who do not eat a meal before going on duty, know the total downside to this.

2) Have you ever trained on a range where you had to run some before shooting to simulate stress? He essentially said (what I had already long intuitively felt) that this does not even remotely resemble the physiological dynamics of combat stress because this type of range training "stress" does not result in the release of the powerful chemicals that really occur in combat when life and death is on the line.

3) When true life and death survival mechanics kick in, you have 22 seconds time before ATP depletion happens. Your performance after that degrades incredibly rapidly. After 30 seconds of fighting for your life, you will have only be able to perform at about 55% of your intensity level. That ain't a helluva lot of time



I agree. I find that deep breathing(Karate style) on the way to a hot call calms that fight or flight reaction to a functional level.

KravJeff
10-23-2006, 09:46 AM
Hmmmm I would have to disagree with you that "technique" is more important!!
Very relevant to the original theme of this thread is the ability to go from 0 - 100 as quickly as possible for as long as necessary, call it aggression, state access, or whatever this I believe is far more important than technique. I would suggest that the hierachy of combat skills look something like this;
1. Mindset - willingness to do violence
2. Aggression / State access - trigger the violence
3. Strength Endurance - Do damage and Keep doing damage
4. Technique - improve ability to do damage
As one of the leading UK combatives instructors Mick Coup explains if you had 10secs to teach someone how to fight what would you do, basically tell them to Go Like F**k !!

Generally, I agree with the above. However, I suppose my comments were made presupposing that one was trained in some sort of fighting and in "decent" shape. I also tried to state clearly the need to end the confrontation quickly by either neutralizing the attacker or doing enough damage to escape. With that in mind, I'll qualify my agreement: For the "untrained" I totally agree with what you've listed. For the "trained" I still believe that being able to execute SD techniques, and to have some fight training, i.e., technique, (and be able to put it to use) is more important in most cases, than strength and endurance.

ADDITIONAL QUALIFIER: I'm a small(ish) guy, who happens to train regularly in fighting/SD. I wouldn't want to test my theory against a professional middle linebacker - 'less I was guarenteed I could land that first, devastating kick to the groin and follow up stomp to the face, with a good escape route! ;)

Respsects,
KJ

BladeMaster
11-12-2006, 05:35 PM
Although I can't put my hands on the article at this moment...the new scientific lit.states that warm ups are not necessary at all. No wild animal warms up before a chase or fight for life. We are animals too. With new research the scientific community is reviewing all of the "tried & true" notions of trainers/body builders and MA's to see which hold water. Some do & some don't. This one doesn't seem to.
If you hurt yourself during ex. it was probbly a long time coming from repetitive other injuries that had nothing to do with cold muscles. Probably over training,strain,multiple activities on the same muscle group over time and finally NO vacation of the muscles. What I mean by that is no massage. That friends is the only vacation your muscles get. If rest or ex. were going to repair all muscle injuries PT'S,and massage therapists would'nt have a job...and we are ALL busy.
All the best!

Cold War Scout
11-12-2006, 06:30 PM
Why then do we see cats and dogs apparently stretching when they wake up.

BladeMaster
11-13-2006, 06:44 PM
I never said that stretching wasn't ok to do. I just said that in the current literature it isn't necessary for muscle protection prior to a ballistic activity. They went on to say that it also makes you weaker as a stretched out muscle can't pull like a tighter one. I was just alerting the people on the site that there is other info out there on this subject. Everyone is free to look it up for themselves.
I am in medicine and I didn't know about it until about 2 months ago myself. I always stretched prior to ex.
Personally I love to stretch. It feels good because I(and other animals)like elongating my muscles.
I just won't take the time to do it when some BG is about to clean my or my families clock.
Stay well.

John McKean
11-14-2006, 08:43 AM
Two weekends ago I lifted in the annual international IAWA " Gold Cup Record day" ,the purpose of which is to set only a world record in our personal choice of one of our many lifts.I drove very early morning cross state and found I had to do my choice of lifts first thing (luck of the draw). I did exactly one single on the platform then banged out 3 consecutive records-the last one being an OPEN world mark (two barbell deadlift of 441#) ,despite hobbled knees and being almost 61.I was one of the lightest male competitors (176#) yet this was the heaviest lift of the day. Warmup was not a problem as I have essentially trained and competed without them for over 40 years!!

Cold War Scout
11-14-2006, 08:49 AM
I just won't take the time to do it when some BG is about to clean my or my families clock.

I don't think that was part of anybody's mindset. Maximum performance during crunch time sure is.

I know for me personally I cannot go from 0-60 with the ease I could 30 years ago when I was in the Army. Workouts in which I loosen up/warm up first are the ones in which I have the fewest problems and the most fun. I do much better by first military pressing a 44 lb kettlebell (KB) a few times before trying to mil. press the 70 lb. KB.

score456
12-07-2006, 05:14 PM
There was a drug-free powerlifter in the early 80's named Judd Biasotto (I think I spelled that right). He set several records in the 132lb class (bench 350ish squat and deadlift in the upper 5's. In his autobiography he explained that he NEVER warmed up. He would self-hypnotize, and visualize his warm-ups, then wrap his knees&pull up the straps on his "supersuit"..walk to the bar and set a record. He cited several studies that indicated that in exercises that begin with an eccentric (lowering the weight before it is lifted ala squat/bench) that the muscle is sufficiently warmed during the eccentric to avoid injury during the concentric-raising of the weight. He did suffer a severe injury, after competing at a world class level for years. I think its difficult to conclude whether the injury was caused by not warming up, or the long term effects of being a 132lb. guy that squatted and deadlifted 585-610 on a weekly basis, or that he took a heavy weight for granted and was not sufficiently tight before a lift.
Myself, I spend less time/less reps on warmups after reading Pavel.. but I am TIGHT on every rep..and am warm much sooner than I used to be when I just used enough effort to move the light warmup weights.

michael
12-07-2006, 05:34 PM
Sometimes I warm up with about 5 minutes on the elliptical before beginning a workout, but most times I just start with a lighter weight and do high reps for the first set of an exercise. That seems to work for me, and whatever stretching I do is after the workout to cool down.

Cold War Scout
12-07-2006, 05:36 PM
When crunch time comes and we have to go from 0-60 in a flash, we will have to live with our training philosophies.

Cold War Scout
12-09-2006, 09:02 AM
Perhaps the better question is "what is the down side to spending some time warming up and loosening up before working out?" I don't see any myself but I can sure see the up side (possible injury prevention).

michael
12-09-2006, 09:16 AM
Perhaps the better question is "what is the down side to spending some time warming up and loosening up before working out?" I don't see any myself but I can sure see the up side (possible injury prevention).

I don't think there is a down side other than the time required if you are pushed to workout in a short time frame.

Manwell
12-09-2006, 05:45 PM
Iím a believer in the warm-up phase of exercising. I personally stretch before I start working out and also start with light weights and progressively go heavier. Walk before ya run kind of thing... Iím no expert and donít claim to be. This has just always worked for me, as one who exercises most every day; I have yet to hurt myself. Even on my ďoff-dayĒ I still at least stretch my bodyÖ Iíve been able to surprise people by how limber I am for my size.

Manwell