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View Full Version : W.Va. black bear vs .45acp



dsapp
02-23-2004, 11:26 AM
don't you just love all the "bear" posts?

well, hear's another one, dumb or not... I have taken my Ruger P90 camping for almost a week in W.Va... and may take it again... my primary concern for it's capability is against a surprised or curious black bear...

my question is... what type of ammo would you carry in this situation?

DaveJames
02-23-2004, 09:12 PM
If its strickly for bear, then go with the 230 grain ball load, stay away from JHP's, even on them little bears in West by god VA, you still need penatration,

Another way to go would be to contact, the people doing the 45 super conversions and find out if the Ruger is one that can handle it

GOTWA
02-24-2004, 07:06 AM
don't you just love all the "bear" posts?

well, hear's another one, dumb or not... I have taken my Ruger P90 camping for almost a week in W.Va... and may take it again... my primary concern for it's capability is against a surprised or curious black bear...

my question is... what type of ammo would you carry in this situation?

I'd stick to the .357 you mentioned in your other post. .45ACP was designed specifically to kill people. It does an awesome job of obtaining it's design goal. Bears are not people.

K. Foster
02-24-2004, 07:33 AM
my question is... what type of ammo would you carry in this situation?

12g. slugs.

dsapp
02-24-2004, 10:12 AM
I was just thinking I'd have 10+1 rounds with my .45, as opposed to only 5 rounds with a .357 snub

Destro
12-23-2007, 11:59 AM
Relax, if you use ball or jsp rounds and a ten-round-capacity magazine; .45 in P90 will take down any big game animal on the N.A. Continent. Just fire until the threat stops.

The Bad Guy
12-23-2007, 12:22 PM
There was a big talk about this on the XD forum. The Cliff-Note from that dicussion, (not my opinion as I don't know enough about this subject) is that the 45 ACP is not a gun for a black-bear, but if it is the only gun you have, then load with Cor-Bon DPX. One officer did dispatch two problematic black bears with hornady rounds with a 45 ACP, with a rifle as a backup.

badLT
12-23-2007, 12:47 PM
12g. slugs.

I agree with this. By all means, bring your 45 loaded with the hotest ball or JSP ammo you can find. But also bring something bigger if at all possible (shotgun loaded with slugs or a rifle).

Wyatt Earp
12-23-2007, 01:25 PM
This where a 4" 44 Magnum revolver comes in very handy.

Crucible
12-23-2007, 03:39 PM
If I had to:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=156&osCsid=8767ec95503c28b6d5f2fdfbbfdc8a46

230G FMJ Flat Point @ 1010fps and 521 lbs-not a bad loading at all.

C-

armed_flyfisher
12-23-2007, 04:24 PM
What is it I'm missing? I've spent a lot of time in black bear country, and I just don't hear stories of serious problems with these guys. They have no interest in you and just want a chance to get away and eat more berries and carrion and whatever else they can scrounge. If you're leaving garbage or other tasty stuff outside your house in bear country you might have problems, and you deserve them. But I can't see why anybody would worry about being "loaded for (black) bear."

Obviously, their bigger brown/griz brothers are a different topic entirely.

The Bad Guy
12-23-2007, 04:44 PM
I took out 8 books from the local library on bear attacks and read most of them. The authors of these books were not keen on defending with guns due to the political aspects of guns, not their value in defense. The books recommended "conflict resolution" such as yelling, "Bad Bear" and to use bear repellent spray, wind direction permitting.

One book did talk about firearms though. It said bears will bluff-charge sometimes coming within 5 feet from you. As someone with a firearm you need to set up a comfort-zone in which you feel you need to fire and when the bear comes within, you fire then and don't freeze. Again, this is what the book said, not what I am saying. I am still learning.

Black bears can be predatory occasionally. If I remember right, when predatory their ears will be down not up. At this point, the bear is stalking you. I have not heard but it could happen that while hiking on a trail you get between a bear and her cubs. That is a bad place to be.

I have personally seen a black bear in a neighborhood in Colorado Springs while walking my dog. I also saw another one run in front of us in Waterton Canyon, a 500+ biker/day recreational area outside of Denver.

I bought an XD-45 knowing that there are better guns specically for bears, but the black bears here are smaller. We also have mountain lions, which have been dispatched by the police in my town, and coyotes, any of which could be rabid. I also wanted a gun for the house and conceal carry.

Once I get my CCL I will hike armed. I would say 99% or more of hikers in the front range of Colorado are not armed. A few years ago a woman was skiiing and was killed by a mountain lion, so this stuff does happen here.

Here are some links on the lions

Residents warned after mountain lion lunges at window
http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=76716 (http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=76716)
One year later, family recalls mountain lion attack, fighting back
http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=70286 (http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=70286)
Mountain lion stalking local family (http://search.9news.com/sp?eId=139&gcId=16180256&rNum=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.9news.com%2Fnews%2Farticle.as px%3Fstoryid%3D41971&siteIdType=2)

http://www.9news.com/genthumb.ashx?e=3&w=193&h=129&i=/assetpool/images/070904074634_09-04-07-mtn-lion-warning.jpg

Section1_Operations
12-23-2007, 04:53 PM
Don't know why this thread popped back up but the SEARCH function can be one's friend.;)

Bear load for Glock 21 .45 ACP... (http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=23834&highlight=bear+ammo)

barnetmill
12-23-2007, 05:37 PM
What is it I'm missing? I've spent a lot of time in black bear country, and I just don't hear stories of serious problems with these guys. They have no interest in you and just want a chance to get away and eat more berries and carrion and whatever else they can scrounge. If you're leaving garbage or other tasty stuff outside your house in bear country you might have problems, and you deserve them. But I can't see why anybody would worry about being "loaded for (black) bear."

Obviously, their bigger brown/griz brothers are a different topic entirely.

It was my understanding that human do get attacked by black bears and deaths have occured. For animals 250 lbs or less at close range a .45 would be better than a snub .357. Easier to aim, shoots more rapidly, and hold more bullets. For a much bigger bear with either .45 or .357 you better shoot for the brain. In west VA I would be more concerned about wild canines, boars, and meth makers than I would be for bears.

BB82
12-23-2007, 05:58 PM
As part of my job and as a hunter, I'm in the woods several times a week at all times of the year. There is absolutely no reason anyone who spends time in the woods shouldn't be carrying more than enough gun to handle anything that comes their way.
I always have a Glock 20 (10mm w/DoubleTap hot loads) or a S&W .44 magnum with 6" barrel on my hip, in addition to whatever rifle/shotgun/bow that I might be carrying.
There is NO excuse to not be carrying enough gun to handle what may come your way.
I've seen animals do things that they weren't supposed to do.
One month ago I had a bobcat come stalking me, and he wouldn't leave me alone. He started trying to come up the tree I was in, despite the fact that I was yelling at him. Conventional wisdom says that bobcats don't want any interaction with humans, and will go the other way when they meet one in the woods. Well, that's not always the case. See the pic of the bobcats face in my gloved hand after the shot.
I also have a fellow ranger that ran into a black bear this past summer that was intent on harming him and wouldn't wave off.
Like I said, carry enough gun, or be willing to be some animals lunch.

MacEntyre
12-23-2007, 06:05 PM
When I hunt, I carry my tough old Argentine Colt 1911 with a special handload for bear: 250 grain Speer LSWC & 6 grains Unique.

The Bad Guy
12-23-2007, 06:37 PM
There is absolutely no reason anyone who spends time in the woods shouldn't be carrying more than enough gun to handle anything that comes their way.
Like I said, carry enough gun, or be willing to be some animals lunch.
Several posters on the XD forum believe the same as you. One said, "if you don't know what kind of gun you need for the woods you don't belong in the woods." I am not disagreeing with this but it is just disappointing that it has taken me this long to hear this argument in order for me to agree.

armed_flyfisher
12-23-2007, 06:39 PM
Let me clarify that I always carry my EDC (XD 9) when I'm in the woods, even when I'm carrying a rifle. I just don't carry a bigger gun because there are black bears. If I were in griz country I'd definitely want more firepower.

Wyatt Earp
12-23-2007, 08:58 PM
I took out 8 books from the local library on bear attacks and read most of them. The authors of these books were not keen on defending with guns due to the political aspects of guns, not their value in defense. The books recommended "conflict resolution" such as yelling, "Bad Bear" and to use bear repellent spray, wind direction permitting.
Good grief................:dope:

armed_flyfisher
12-23-2007, 09:12 PM
Good grief................:dope:

No, really, yelling, "Bad Bear!" will trigger barely-suppressed emotions having to do with its relationship with its mother, likely causing it to trudge off to its room to play its favorite music by way of comforting itself and reasserting its identity.

(Get it? "Barely"-suppressed? :D )

steve b
12-24-2007, 07:11 AM
As someone above has shown, this subject has been done here. "they have no interest in you.." Like the "random violence" thing, if your the one, the stats., are meaningless. Have had 2-3 bears take an interest in me, and a few others that just sniffed around. This site is all about preparedness, so go prepared. Especially if your taking loved ones. As an additional note, females at that time of the month seem to attract bears to some small additional degree. Keep an eye on your down wind side. steve

michael
12-24-2007, 07:13 AM
We have had a few malled a one killed in a "random" black bear attack locally. It does happen, and more frequently than is usually thought. They are not as predatory as a Grizzly or Polar bear, but they can and do attack humans.

enoch
12-24-2007, 07:50 AM
Nosler 260 or 300 gr. Partition is the way to go.

SpamOnRye
01-02-2008, 08:59 PM
Shotguns and firecrackers.

barnetmill
01-03-2008, 07:17 AM
When I hunt, I carry my tough old Argentine Colt 1911 with a special handload for bear: 250 grain Speer LSWC & 6 grains Unique.

Years ago I used a similar load with the traditional 255 lead bullet and it was hard on my gun. My 1911 at the time had a soft frame that dated from 1916 and was never intended for that kind of recoil and battering. Never clocked that load, but I bet it was going well above 900 fps. The .45 ACP has limited case capacity and the slug I was using did compress the powder charge more than did the 230 grain military slug.

Eric
01-03-2008, 12:49 PM
I've personally carried 230gr. "flying ashcans" +P in a Glock 30. problem with ball ammo is that it goes out much the same size as it goes in.

Penetration on bear hide is an issue, but to "old timers" used to use .45 long colt soft points and they worked just fine. So +P should make up for the penetraiton issue, IMHO.

Just make sure you go for flank shots; pistol ammo is notorious for ricochet-ing off the face. bear have VERY thick skulls, even blackies.

Also, practice firing off the 'X' as you're not gonna want to stand there when a 300lb Blackie is charging :eek: . get off the 'X' and go for a heart shot. Right through the lung.

yttrium
01-03-2008, 01:28 PM
I have worked in remote areas of AK and the Northern Rockies for decades and been charged by both blacks and griz on numerous occasions. Some of the bears did not survive. All the highly aggressive encounters with black bears that I have had were in AK. Despite that, generalizing about bears and their behavior is usually inappropriate since their dispositions, conditioning and the circumstances vary widely. I'd urge anyone who might have to deal with them read up and watch videos of agitated bears to get a feeling for posturing and body language. Having limited verbal skills, that is how they communicate.

I don't really consider the .45 ACP a field caliber, but if I had to pack one, in most of the lower 48 where griz are not a concern, I'd use this ammo in FMJFN or one of the .45 Super loads with that bullet

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#45acp

While it is only partially effective, in the right circumstances spray has a role though assertions that you're better off with spray than a firearm are political and don't consider a trained user of the firearm. I also find it curious that so few writers on the subject recognize the utility of muzzle blast. In my experience it has been more effective for hazing at close range than spray and still avoids having to deal with a dead or wounded bear.