Generators

[Papa]

Without getting into the why of it, I want to upgrade my home generator from a 7000W Champion to something that will run more quietly and efficiently and get as close to 20KW as possible without breaking the bank. I'm thinking gas/propane.
My breaker is already set up for manual plugin and switching. This will not be a permanent on demand install. That will probably be a diesel and will be builtin with auxiliary tanks. There are no natural gas lines out here and I'm reluctant to install a propane tank, but keeping that option open.

Suggestions?

[chad newton]

Without getting into the why of it, I want to upgrade my home generator from a 7000W Champion to something that will run more quietly and efficiently and get as close to 20KW as possible without breaking the bank. I'm thinking gas/propane.
My breaker is already set up for manual plugin and switching. This will not be a permanent on demand install. That will probably be a diesel and will be builtin with auxiliary tanks. There are no natural gas lines out here and I'm reluctant to install a propane tank, but keeping that option open.

Suggestions?
Put in a tank, just build a block enclosure around it.... it’s the way to go, or stick to diesel. Put some stabil in it and diesel should be good for 5 years. Look into running a vehicle on the propane too, if you have it you might as well use it...

[OB-1]

A gasoline or propane powered generator will be cheaper than a diesel generator. Gasoline goes bad and can be dangerous to store and expensive to fill a decent sized tank. Propane lasts nearly forever, is easy to store, and can be economically delivered to your home. Use propane. Yes, you need a large tank, but that's lots of runtime.

Diesel generators cost more upfront but they will run for tens of thousands of hours between rebuilds. Today's diesel fuel sucks and doesn't last. It will require maintenance, treatments, and can be expensive to get delivered.

Generac generators use a lot of proprietary parts. They sell on price. They actually work well for awhile and then they need expensive proprietary parts.

[Papa]

Generac generators use a lot of proprietary parts. They sell on price. They actually work well for awhile and then they need expensive proprietary parts.

Good to know. The advertising and package are appealing. Caveat emptor.

[IANative]

Not sure about your AO, Papa, but propane tanks can be buried, too.

[Papa]

Not sure about your AO, Papa, but propane tanks can be buried, too.

That's not a problem. Frost line here is approx 12-20 inches, and digging is something I do well.

[45Smashemflat]

2nd the propane suggestion.

Topping off a gas burner can lead to a fire. Don’t ask how I know....

Propane can be remoted from the generator.

Consider a gas burner with a conversion to LP. That gives you options.

[jhoward]

A 20kW Kohler costs $4228.00 MSRP...maybe less if you hook up with an authorized dealer. Per DOT regulations, you can transport up to a 114 gallon tank without a permit. These can be connected together (manifolding) to increase usable fuel. If less than 25 feet from generator, you can use a 3/4" line. Distance and elbows dictate larger pipe sizes. Fuel consumption is: 2.08 gallons per hour 50% load, 3.45 gallons per hour 100% load. They weigh 436 lbs, and come from the factory full of engine oil and ready to run. Size 51 batteries are $130.00, but any 12 volt automotive battery will suffice. I put these in for a living, and have been VERY busy of late. 99.9% of my customers are rural, on propane, and prefer an automatic transfer switch to operate it. Manual is possible, with a little more work. Most important to OPEN the main breaker, to avoid back-feeding into the grid. Transfer switches are sold by size...100 amp, 200 amp, 400 amp, etc. Depends on the size of your main breaker. They start at $431.00 for a basic 100 amp, and go up from there. Generacs are plentiful, and they DO have an accomplished sales force...however the ones I have been involved with tend to fail upon transfer. Proprietary parts, many from offshore, contribute to this. PM me if you need more info (if I haven't been long winded enough)

[Papa]

Pure gold. Thanks.

[mattmann]

Pure gold. Thanks.

My propane tank is buried. I would do it a million times over.


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[Jsavik]

Do a 1000g underground and get the summer fill-up or pre-buy price for the best deal. I drive propane truck in winter and i see a lot of newcomers with generacs. Those who’ve been here awhile, or have smart builders, have kohlers.

[COG]

Consider Onan/Cummins... They are 1st tier and the industry standard for stationary, commercial and RV applications. They do tend to cost more. They have a full line of home stationary units too.

Available in gas, propane and diesel.

Also, if you want to go really hard core and DIY, check into mil surplus gensets. Earlier this year, my dad found a stationary 20kw diesel unit in very good condition at a govt auction for cheap money. This would not be for the mechanically illiterate, but these things are commercial quality and way overbuilt. Maybe a little noisy for the suburbs, but great in a more rural area. Even so, I remember many days in the field being lulled to sleep by the droning sounds of gensets.

[barnetmill]

A 20kW Kohler costs $4228.00 MSRP...maybe less if you hook up with an authorized dealer. Per DOT regulations, you can transport up to a 114 gallon tank without a permit. These can be connected together (manifolding) to increase usable fuel. If less than 25 feet from generator, you can use a 3/4" line. Distance and elbows dictate larger pipe sizes. Fuel consumption is: 2.08 gallons per hour 50% load, 3.45 gallons per hour 100% load. They weigh 436 lbs, and come from the factory full of engine oil and ready to run. Size 51 batteries are $130.00, but any 12 volt automotive battery will suffice. I put these in for a living, and have been VERY busy of late. 99.9% of my customers are rural, on propane, and prefer an automatic transfer switch to operate it. Manual is possible, with a little more work. Most important to OPEN the main breaker, to avoid back-feeding into the grid. Transfer switches are sold by size...100 amp, 200 amp, 400 amp, etc. Depends on the size of your main breaker. They start at $431.00 for a basic 100 amp, and go up from there. Generacs are plentiful, and they DO have an accomplished sales force...however the ones I have been involved with tend to fail upon transfer. Proprietary parts, many from offshore, contribute to this. PM me if you need more info (if I haven't been long winded enough)
On the manual transfer switches, do they come in any smaller sizes? I assume that they do. I wired my house and likely could put one in myself. I will check in the electrical departments of Home Depot, Lowes, etc to see what they have.
But the extension cords have become a pain and is what I now must use. Just one connecting to the house hold wiring is the way to go.

I only need a generator normally for a wk or so in a worst case scenario. Depends if the power lines get broken/ripped off the pole or not. After hurricane Sally since no lines except for by Uverse cable down, I was out of power for only 48 hours. My power was last knocked out by a storm in 2005. Last time my power out for any reason was a few months ago for 6 hours from a direct lighting strike on pole that took out the transformer.
I just to do not see the need for more than the 6500 watts that I have. I need enough power for the fridges, small window unit air conditioner, a few lights, and computer, charge phones.
Plus a portable generator can be used at other sites and they are cheap and easy to maintain.

For long-term I am thinking of some sort of solar backup.
The most essential is heat and it is smart to have a wood burning stove for when the power is out as could happen during an ice storm or sabotage.

[steve_k]

22kW’s here with 3 dedicated tanks (~300 gallons) for about 5 days of continuous power @ 1/2 load. It can run the whole house except for the auxiliary heating coils of the furnace, so there is a sense line for the furnace to not run them and it will stay with the heat pump.

Check out Switch Electric, they did ours and several of thr neighbors. It’s a bit of a time consuming process to buy, order, coordinate gas delivery, permit, and inspections.

60309

60310

[Papa]

Great! Looks like they're pushing Generac, but also install other brands and solar.

[RJW]

Generac all the way. Have a 36 KW propane. It test runs it's self every week. Pretty quiet. Has save our butts during ice storms and other weather related issues.

Aslo have these on three other farm locations for grain dryers.

[jhoward]

On the manual transfer switches, do they come in any smaller sizes? I assume that they do. I wired my house and likely could put one in myself. I will check in the electrical departments of Home Depot, Lowes, etc to see what they have.
But the extension cords have become a pain and is what I now must use. Just one connecting to the house hold wiring is the way to go.

I only need a generator normally for a wk or so in a worst case scenario. Depends if the power lines get broken/ripped off the pole or not. After hurricane Sally since no lines except for by Uverse cable down, I was out of power for only 48 hours. My power was last knocked out by a storm in 2005. Last time my power out for any reason was a few months ago for 6 hours from a direct lighting strike on pole that took out the transformer.
I just to do not see the need for more than the 6500 watts that I have. I need enough power for the fridges, small window unit air conditioner, a few lights, and computer, charge phones.
Plus a portable generator can be used at other sites and they are cheap and easy to maintain.

For long-term I am thinking of some sort of solar backup.
The most essential is heat and it is smart to have a wood burning stove for when the power is out as could happen during an ice storm or sabotage.
Reliance Electric make manual transfer switches in smaller sizes...consists of Two circuit breakers mechanically connected mounted 'nose to nose' and requires only moving from 'Normal' to 'generator. Most I've seen are indoor panels (NEMA 1), but they may be available in outdoor enclosures (NEMA 3).

[Crusader8207]

I have this same generator with natural gas. We moved into our house in September of last year and it has run a few times. Neighbors have come over to use our power so they could work during a power outage. So glad that we have it. I have natural gas but also have a 500 gallon propane tank on the property to heat the pool, so if I ever had to I could switch over to propane.


22kW’s here with 3 dedicated tanks (~300 gallons) for about 5 days of continuous power @ 1/2 load. It can run the whole house except for the auxiliary heating coils of the furnace, so there is a sense line for the furnace to not run them and it will stay with the heat pump.

Check out Switch Electric, they did ours and several of thr neighbors. It’s a bit of a time consuming process to buy, order, coordinate gas delivery, permit, and inspections.

60309

60310

[Papa]

Keep it up, guys. I am becoming enlightened, and a plan is beginning to form in my walnut-sized brain.

Based on COG's reply, considering as well a diesel .mil genset as a interim measure. What should I be looking for, and looking out for?

[jhoward]

.mil units are built to serve active duty units...which includes multiple voltages and frequencies. Though some units are put up for auction with low hours, the complexity and parts availability may dissuade a home owner from taking on a project like them. As COG said, they can be a strong source for a DIYer, with a host of options to use. Regardless of Kilowatt rating, these all will be Heavy.

[douginamherst]

+1 on the Generac. My parents have a 20kW unit on their farm for at least 10 years. They run it off the natural gas from their wells. Big enough to pump water from the well and run heat and AC.

Saved them more than once when the REA power failed.

Has never caused them any problems. I think they had to replace the battery last year.

[Eldora]

I was an electrical contractor for many years and installed several of different brands/setups. The automatics are really nice and I couldn't recommend one brand over the other. I wouldn't buy anything Chinese, though. The Reliant manual transfer switches are very good, IMHO, and easily installed. I'd like to have an automatic someday but really don't need one. We currently have a portable, commercial grade Generac gas 8000 watt w/12000w surge that connects to the house via a 4-wire cord. It will keep the freezers, fridge, well pump, lights and microwave going. We use a propane range for cooking anyway and a wood stove in the basement if things really go south. Our next water heater will likely be propane, too.
Inside I have an "Inter-Lock-It" brand manual lockout device that makes it impossible to backfeed the line. No one has mentioned this setup is the reason I responded. You can order directly from Inter-Lock-It to fit your specific breaker panel. Your panel should be labeled clearly anyway. I've placed a red dot on each breaker that should be turned off when using the generator. I've also taped an instruction sheet to the door for my wife if I happen not to be there when she needs it.
We've had this rig for several years now and have never needed it. That's why I haven't invested in a nicer setup. Of course, your needs may differ. I always get it out to run and service it each year. (Always drain the carb!) This year it needed a battery. I normally keep about 25-30 gallons of non-ethanol gasoline on hand with Seafoam or Stabil because of mowers, motorcycles etc. that keeps it used up and refreshed.

[McGyver]

I ordered a standby automatic switchover 22kw propane generator earlier this summer from the local generator dealer. It is scheduled to be installed next month, but he was unsure if the generator would actually come in prior to the install date. I went with 2 smaller propane tanks, due to larger tanks having to be further away from everything and I have buried downspout drain pipes as well as the well line and an outside wood boiler in the same area as where the generator is going. The propane, tanks and install is estimated to be $1,800 to $2,000, on top of the $8,000 for the generator, install, and replacement of the service entrance (deteriorating and needed replaced - not necessary for the generator). I'm probably going to be in for around $10,000 when its all said and done. I went with Generac - it was what the local dealer carried. I went with propane as I don't have natural gas where I live - I would have went with natural gas as it is rarely disrupted and never needs a refill.

[Eldora]

I ordered a standby automatic switchover 22kw propane generator earlier this summer from the local generator dealer. It is scheduled to be installed next month, but he was unsure if the generator would actually come in prior to the install date. I went with 2 smaller propane tanks, due to larger tanks having to be further away from everything and I have buried downspout drain pipes as well as the well line and an outside wood boiler in the same area as where the generator is going. The propane, tanks and install is estimated to be $1,800 to $2,000, on top of the $8,000 for the generator, install, and replacement of the service entrance (deteriorating and needed replaced - not necessary for the generator). I'm probably going to be in for around $10,000 when its all said and done. I went with Generac - it was what the local dealer carried. I went with propane as I don't have natural gas where I live - I would have went with natural gas as it is rarely disrupted and never needs a refill.
That sounds about right. I'll bet you're going to be happy with that setup. Keep it serviced and it will last for a very long time.

[OB-1]

Be cautious when selecting natural gas for generator fuel. Local authorities have ordered service curtailments. In Katrina, the mayor of New Orleans ordered natural gas service curtailed. Additionally, some areas have hd system failures.

[Papa]

It would have to be propane if I don't go with diesel. No natural gas out here in the rain forest.

[jhoward]

Propane has an almost indefinite shelf/storage life, does not lose octane or promote microbial growth, and in my AO, has delivery trucks out and about continuously. Even during the fires we get around here, the trucks are going up the mountains(s) to fill the communication stations.