Carnivore Diet

[stankasz1]

Anybody doing true carnivore? If so, what resources did you use to learn how to implement? ie how much protein each day? What fats etc? Thanks

[DogDoc]

I’m not familiar with “true carnivore” per se

But be aware that true carnivores eat a lot of vegetable matter in the GI tracts of their prey.
The average wildebeast for example has a rumen that holds 20-30 gallons of fermenting plant material and the lions eat every bit of it when they make a kill. Meat is great but don’t kid yourself that the predators aren’t eating their veggies too.

[callmebubba]

I’m not familiar with “true carnivore” per se

But be aware that true carnivores eat a lot of vegetable matter in the GI tracts of their prey.
The average wildebeast for example has a rumen that holds 20-30 gallons of fermenting plant material and the lions eat every bit of it when they make a kill. Meat is great but don’t kid yourself that the predators aren’t eating their veggies too.

Understanding that you’re 1000x the expert I am on such things; there’s a lot of anecdotal evidence (particularly in people with autoimmune diseases) that show a carnivore diet alleviating a lot of health issues in humans.

[DogDoc]

Understanding that you’re 1000x the expert I am on such things; there’s a lot of anecdotal evidence (particularly in people with autoimmune diseases) that show a carnivore diet alleviating a lot of health issues in humans.

You're right. It can. Autoimmune disease is often secondary to food allergies from leaky gut. As one decreases the variety of allergens the immune system sees via the gut, one will have much less inflammation. I often do elimination diets and leaky gut protocols on my clients with autoimmune issues in my naturopath practice (when I'm not being a veterinarian, I'm a naturopath and clinical herbalist). I wrote an article about it a while ago.

Leaky Gut, Food Sensitivity & Autoimmune Disease (https://www.homegrownherbalist.net/blogs/news/leaky-gut-food-sensitivity-autoimmune-disease)
The elimination diet I put folks on in those cases are high in meat and real vegetables and eliminate simple carbs, processed foods, dairy etc... Probably a good idea for all of us even if we don't have autoimmune disease.

Doc

[Gabriel Suarez]

I will let you guys know that I have a hereditary thyroid disease - Hashimotos. I have fairly healed it (or beat it into submission more likely) with my diet. And those who have seen the pics of me shirtless will notice that at 60 I an muscular and lean as well.

I went through the AI Paleo Diet last year and found several types of food affected me poorly. It wasn't going to kill me to have a piece of bread, but a diet high in bread would have eventually.

I am not pure carnivore because I do believe that the body needs other food sources than meat, but it is the bulk of my diet. I have eliminated the following completely -

Any and all gluten and wheat products. The guys that scoff at gluten free diets should pull their heads out of their own asses and look at their big beer-fed wheat bellies as evidence. Along with that are other grains that are cross-sensitive to gluten such as quinoa, oats, etc. Even rice for me. Any and all dairy products. Anything with Soy. Soy is a poison and it is insidious (sorry soy farmers...your crops kill more Americans than meth). I have eliminated Nightshades (tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, eggplant, etc.). Can't live w/o your fries? Too bad. And I eat nothing packaged or with added sugar. I may have a drink here and there...but it is a wheat free spirit like Vodka or Tequila.

My diet consists of meat. I eat a couple of pounds of it daily. Free range chicken, grass fed beef, organic bacon or wild caught fish. I eat eggs as well and was concerned about those early on. All my carbs are from vegetables or fruits.

While I hope for the squad of ISIS tangoes and the pile of spent brass in my eighties, this shit is what will probably kill me in the end. Ludlum wrote in the Bourne books - "sleep is a weapon". He was right...but diet is also a weapon, and luikely the most potent one we wield.

[DogDoc]

I will let you guys know that I have a hereditary thyroid disease - Hashimotos. I have fairly healed it (or beat it into submission more likely) with my diet. And those who have seen the pics of me shirtless will notice that at 60 I an muscular and lean as well.

I went through the AI Paleo Diet last year and found several types of food affected me poorly. It wasn't going to kill me to have a piece of bread, but a diet high in bread would have eventually.

I am not pure carnivore because I do believe that the body needs other food sources than meat, but it is the bulk of my diet. I have eliminated the following completely -

Any and all gluten and wheat products. The guys that scoff at gluten free diets should pull their heads out of their own asses and look at their big beer-fed wheat bellies as evidence. Along with that are other grains that are cross-sensitive to gluten such as quinoa, oats, etc. Even rice for me. Any and all dairy products. Anything with Soy. Soy is a poison and it is insidious (sorry soy farmers...your crops kill more Americans than meth). I have eliminated Nightshades (tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, eggplant, etc.). Can't live w/o your fries? Too bad. And I eat nothing packaged or with added sugar. I may have a drink here and there...but it is a wheat free spirit like Vodka or Tequila.

My diet consists of meat. I eat a couple of pounds of it daily. Free range chicken, grass fed beef, organic bacon or wild caught fish. I eat eggs as well and was concerned about those early on. All my carbs are from vegetables or fruits.

While I hope for the squad of ISIS tangoes and the pile of spent brass in my eighties, this shit is what will probably kill me in the end. Ludlum wrote in the Bourne books - "sleep is a weapon". He was right...but diet is also a weapon, and luikely the most potent one we wield.

Good work Gabe. That diet and a little herbal help patching up the gut have worked well for me addressing Hashimoto’s and other autoimmune cases over the years.

The modern American diet is mostly toxic garbage.
If we give the body the resources it needs and stop poisoning it, it’s pretty adept at fixing itself.

[Dorkface]

Gabe I have almost mirrored what you have done except for nightshades. What is the thought process behind it and what benefits have you seen or anticipate?

[DogDoc]

Gabe I have almost mirrored what you have done except for nightshades. What is the thought process behind it and what benefits have you seen or anticipate?

Not speaking for Gabe, but Nightshades are pretty inflammatory even if you aren’t allergic to them...for some folks REALLY inflammatory.

[Greg Nichols]

Not speaking for Gabe, but Nightshades are pretty inflammatory even if you aren’t allergic to them...for some folks REALLY inflammatory.

Right, there are a lot of acids that don't react well with the digestive system. Ya they hold some vitamins that you need but are hazardous on the digestive. I supplement a lot, protein shakes during the day and really the only real food I get is meat and eggs. Now due to my high protein diet I have to add more fat so I didn't get the shits, a tblsp of peanut butter after each shake works and I switched from breast chicken to thighs because they have more fats. I also add bacon to my other meat nearly daily.

[Gabriel Suarez]

Gabe I have almost mirrored what you have done except for nightshades. What is the thought process behind it and what benefits have you seen or anticipate?


I stayed on the Auto Immune Paleo Diet for 60 days and then added things in one at a time.

Nightshades was one of the food groups that affects the thyroid so I eliminated all of them early on and then added one in at a time to see if they affected me. If I felt the bad symptoms I relegated that food to the "delete" list. I didn't try every single Nightshade, but potatoes and tomatoes didn't suit me. Since I won't go out of my way to eat peppers and onions and eggplants, etc., I simply deleted that entire food group. If I really liked any of them I would have made special effort to decide which were less offensive but I didn't bother.

Once I had a workable list of "Delete" foods and foods that I could eat (and source anywhere) I was good to go. I can tell within 30 minutes of eating one of the "bad for me" foods. Also...while I tend to cook my own chow 80% of the time, when I am out I will always order off menu. I make sure to tell them they will get a good tip and don't mind being an asshole if they bring me the wrong food.

Example...was at a Mardi Gras event this last weekend and bar food was plentiful. I flirted with the waitress a bit (which is fun regardless) and asked her for two plain burger patties on a bed of lettuce. She smiled and said something about my "gains". I winked at her and while the rest of the table was eating wings and fries and washing it down with beer, I had my food and a club soda.

You cannot live by accident and for me now, I cannot eat by accident either.

[Gabriel Suarez]

Research food sensitivities to

Dairy
Gluten and all Grains
Soy of all forms
Sugar
Nightshades
Goitrogens (another group of plants)
Legumes (peanuts, beans, stuff like that)



And don't listen to anyone that rolls their eyes about food allergies. They are idiots.

[DogDoc]

I stayed on the Auto Immune Paleo Diet for 60 days and then added things in one at a time.

Nightshades was one of the food groups that affects the thyroid so I eliminated all of them early on and then added one in at a time to see if they affected me. If I felt the bad symptoms I relegated that food to the "delete" list. I didn't try every single Nightshade, but potatoes and tomatoes didn't suit me. Since I won't go out of my way to eat peppers and onions and eggplants, etc., I simply deleted that entire food group. If I really liked any of them I would have made special effort to decide which were less offensive but I didn't bother.


Onions aren't related to nightshades. If they bother you particularly, carry on but there's no reason to snub them because of any family connections to potatoes, tomatoes etc...

[Gabriel Suarez]

Onions aren't related to nightshades. If they bother you particularly, carry on but there's no reason to snub them because of any family connections to potatoes, tomatoes etc...

Interesting. I don't particularly care for onions and didn't really test them for that reason. I do recall reading at least one book where they grouped them in that category.

[jlwilliams]

There are food sensitivity blood tests available. I've been looking into them. Not all test companies are equal and I've not yet narrowed down who is worth spending on. I will keep the tribe informed.

[Dorkface]

I stayed on the Auto Immune Paleo Diet for 60 days and then added things in one at a time.

Nightshades was one of the food groups that affects the thyroid so I eliminated all of them early on and then added one in at a time to see if they affected me. If I felt the bad symptoms I relegated that food to the "delete" list. I didn't try every single Nightshade, but potatoes and tomatoes didn't suit me. Since I won't go out of my way to eat peppers and onions and eggplants, etc., I simply deleted that entire food group. If I really liked any of them I would have made special effort to decide which were less offensive but I didn't bother.

Once I had a workable list of "Delete" foods and foods that I could eat (and source anywhere) I was good to go. I can tell within 30 minutes of eating one of the "bad for me" foods. Also...while I tend to cook my own chow 80% of the time, when I am out I will always order off menu. I make sure to tell them they will get a good tip and don't mind being an asshole if they bring me the wrong food.

Example...was at a Mardi Gras event this last weekend and bar food was plentiful. I flirted with the waitress a bit (which is fun regardless) and asked her for two plain burger patties on a bed of lettuce. She smiled and said something about my "gains". I winked at her and while the rest of the table was eating wings and fries and washing it down with beer, I had my food and a club soda.

You cannot live by accident and for me now, I cannot eat by accident either.

Understandable. Thanks for the explanation.

[stankasz1]

This is really helpful, thanks.

[Oscar01]

Adding to the comments about sensitivities and allergies:


After being on AI Paleo or something similar, take note of how your body responds to increased inflammation for future reference.


For example some forms of dairy really inflame my sinuses (whole milk) but not others (cheese, cream). Go figure but useful notes.


Sensitivities to vegetables can sometimes be reduced by cooking allowing you to keep some nutrients and flavors too, if so desired.

[flyfisher]

Fermentation also seems to reduce inflammation of veggies

[Papa]

I stayed on the Auto Immune Paleo Diet for 60 days and then added things in one at a time.

Nightshades was one of the food groups that affects the thyroid so I eliminated all of them early on and then added one in at a time to see if they affected me. If I felt the bad symptoms I relegated that food to the "delete" list. I didn't try every single Nightshade, but potatoes and tomatoes didn't suit me. Since I won't go out of my way to eat peppers and onions and eggplants, etc., I simply deleted that entire food group. If I really liked any of them I would have made special effort to decide which were less offensive but I didn't bother.

Once I had a workable list of "Delete" foods and foods that I could eat (and source anywhere) I was good to go. I can tell within 30 minutes of eating one of the "bad for me" foods. Also...while I tend to cook my own chow 80% of the time, when I am out I will always order off menu. I make sure to tell them they will get a good tip and don't mind being an asshole if they bring me the wrong food.

Example...was at a Mardi Gras event this last weekend and bar food was plentiful. I flirted with the waitress a bit (which is fun regardless) and asked her for two plain burger patties on a bed of lettuce. She smiled and said something about my "gains". I winked at her and while the rest of the table was eating wings and fries and washing it down with beer, I had my food and a club soda.

You cannot live by accident and for me now, I cannot eat by accident either.

It's actually liberating. You need make no excuses for what you order--or what you don't. And if you transgress, you do so with eyes open, aware of the consequences and ready to bear them.

I stopped drinking in 2006. But certain temptations remain. Get thee behind me, strawberry rhubarb pie...

[Faramir2]

Research food sensitivities to

Dairy
Gluten and all Grains
Soy of all forms
Sugar
Nightshades
Goitrogens (another group of plants)
Legumes (peanuts, beans, stuff like that)



And don't listen to anyone that rolls their eyes about food allergies. They are idiots.

Can't emphasize this and the other important diet advice in this thread more. My sister has had some pretty severe food issues over the last several years that have required some dramatic dietary changes at times, as her body got itself reset from primarily leaky gut issues. Between dealing with her leaky gut and genetic issue where she doesn't produce an enzyme necessary to digest sucrose, my family has learned an extraordinary amount about good diet.

I have let myself go this semester of law school, for various reasons that ultimately come down to poor discipline, and I feel the difference in my gut and along the belly. Back to following almost exactly what Gabe and others here do (though not as much meat because it's so dang expensive), because it works really dang well.

[Gabriel Suarez]

Breakfast today - Piece of Wild Caught Salmon - defrosted night before and cooked in a pan with coconut oil. Added some plantains and bacon. Washed down with a double espresso with coconut cream.

Lunch today - 1/2 pound of grass fed hamburger, rest of the plantains, and a serving of organic saurkraut. Iced tea to wash it down.

Dinner - likely a steak with a salad.

[mike135]

I've been following the carnivore movement for a while. I ignore the fanatics who say nobody should ever eat vegetables, but I find it fascinating because they are questioning a lot of conventional wisdom about what it means to eat "healthy" (e.g. healthy=lots of vegetables). Shawn Baker and Paul Saladino are a couple doctors who have books out now that dig into the science--I plan to read them at some point, but I get the impression from listening to them discuss it that (as I would have expected) there really is a lot less solid evidence for the idea that "more vegetables = better" than most people would think based on what all the "experts" say.

From reading a lot of anecdotal stories, it seems obvious that going carnivore (or something close to that) is a great way to experiment with personal health. It's the ultimate elimination diet, and it appears to offer a lot of potential for self-healing. My current hypothesis is that it's basically giving your digestive system a break (especially when combined with intermittent fasting), which frees up your body to work on repairing and rejuvenating itself. Digestion is hard work and puts a lot of demands on your body, especially if you force it to deal with stuff that's difficult to digest. It's going to try its best, but it may compromise long-term health during the process (like taking stuff out of your teeth and bones!). Meat is probably the easiest thing to digest, hence why so many people have amazing reactions when they cut out everything else.

Obviously everybody can conduct their own experiments with adding stuff back in and observing the effects, and I'm sure that there are plenty of vegetables that don't cause problems for many people, but it just makes sense to start with a clean slate instead of trying to work backwards (trying to figure out what's causing the problem before eliminating it).

[Greg Nichols]

you're missing a couple of key elements. 1). the gut is full of bacteria that is directly in line with what you feed it. If it's used to carbs and sugars then when you change your diet, you will get rid of that bacteria in replacement for what's more in line with your diet which is one of those reasons you will get the squirts when you change significantly. 2) meat may be easier to digest (I haven't seen that data) but protein is harder to process. It requires more water and takes longer to utilize. 3). with any strict diet you need to supplement, there are vitamins you require that aren't found in meat so you need to get those from somewhere.

[mike135]

you're missing a couple of key elements. 1). the gut is full of bacteria that is directly in line with what you feed it. If it's used to carbs and sugars then when you change your diet, you will get rid of that bacteria in replacement for what's more in line with your diet which is one of those reasons you will get the squirts when you change significantly. 2) meat may be easier to digest (I haven't seen that data) but protein is harder to process. It requires more water and takes longer to utilize. 3). with any strict diet you need to supplement, there are vitamins you require that aren't found in meat so you need to get those from somewhere.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I have spent some time listening to those who do. Right now it's more about asking questions and challenging conventional wisdom than claiming hard conclusions. But I think there may be some merit to the argument that what you need (vitamins, minerals, etc.) is not as static as most people think. For example, one of the common reactions to the idea of strict carnivore is "you're going to get scurvy because you aren't getting vitamin C!". But there are people who have been doing it for a long time and never had any issues. There are A LOT of people who have been doing it for 6 months or longer as the movement has taken off with no issues. So then people ask "what if there's more to the story?". The argument I've heard is that the more carbs you eat the more vitamin C you need. But if you don't eat carbs you actually don't need much vitamin C. Supposedly the official guidelines were generated based on the "normal" diet which had plenty of carbs and the science behind what we're told on every food label is actually not very solid.

We've all been told that sailors used to get scurvy because they weren't eating fresh fruit, but this makes me ask if the real reason sailors used to get scurvy is not so much because they weren't eating fruit as that they were eating a lot of carbs on their long journeys.

I don't conclude from that that nobody needs to supplement. But I am very intrigued when somebody digs into the details and asks "what's the basis for the standard recommendations about X?" and finds out that it's actually not very solid. Then when there are a bunch of anecdotes that completely defy what conventional wisdom would have predicted, I get more intrigued. I'm always attracted to something that questions conventional orthodoxy. :smile:

To be clear, I'm not an advocate of hard-core carnivore eating, but I am very much an advocate of the science-related exploration and questioning that it is stimulating.

Here's a taste--Shawn Baker is a doctor (I think he's an orthopedic surgeon) so he understands the way medical research works. He's also a world-champion athlete (I think his focus is rowing, but he does hard-core strength workouts as well). This is a presentation he made last year:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g38-oGgQPrY

Here's a playlist of all the presentations from the event:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPCvkvY4xYYO_cW0-If6aesfpGmudTPnR

The other doctor I've seen who is really digging into the science of all this stuff is Paul Saladino:

https://carnivoremd.com/

He has a blog, podcast, lots of interviews on YouTube, and just released his book. He gets into the science details more than Baker does.

[chad newton]

Lunch- Double western cheeseburger(no fries). Already had two lattes...

dinner- maybe a porterhouse and green beans, idk yet, still kinda early...

[Gunstore Commando]

The elimination diet I put folks on in those cases are high in meat and real vegetables

Doc, what kind of veggies would be indicated to start with on an elimination diet? (I'm guessing nightshade veggies are out?)

How about spices? Good, no good?