Sick Dog Help

[Bob F.]

Posting here because I know there are many dog lovers following "Dogs of War" here. My 7 yr old GSD is dying of malnutrition. He's had a problem with loose stools for a couple years, chalked up to sensitive stomach by my vet. GSD's have a reputation for the same. Ruger appears to be healthy and pain free but began loosing wt some time ago. I'd been feeding him and our over weight GSD-mix rescue Beneful Healthy Weight. Lately, Ruger's wt has dropped from about 80 #'s to 65 and worsening. We've tried to keep his wt down to avoid hip problems. He'd been up to 100#'s. I've switched Ruger to regular Purina and canned Pedigree, usually Chicken & Rice Dinner.

Vet checked for parasites and did a bunch of blood work to rule out cancer, my first thought. She and her cohorts conferrenced frequently and came up with a suspicion for Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency. It's unusual in a mature dog since it's genetic, but not unheard of. $140 lab test came back low normal so pretty much a rule-out.

So now we're looking at Irritable Bowel Syndrome/Disease. High-dose prednisone therapy which doesn't seem to be helping yet. X-rays this coming Thursday to look for bowel wall thickening.

His stool is yellow water and he can't get enough to eat; stealing food off the counter given a chance. He gets 3 cups of kibble & 1/3 cup canned 2x's a day. Extra at mid-day if I'm home

Your thoughts? (and donations, just kidding)

Bob

[barnetmill]

In general most of the common generic dogs foods contain a lot of corn derived materials. Most dogs can handle that and can even be fed ground up corn which was part of the diet of most dogs in rural america at one time. But some dogs can not handle such food.
I am not a dog nutritionist, but I do some have some observations and general recommendations.
Do not feed your sick dog corn products and pay a little more for rice based dog food. Feed your dog cheaper meat products. Some people favor the $5 ten lbs bags of chicken thighs-legs ect. Mine eat those raw including skin and bones. At some dollar type stores canned mackerel is a $1/15 oz can. Get it done in water only AND NOT IN OIL. The fish Omega-3s are good for dogs. I also feed raw pork trimmings. Feed it all raw. If you can get beef trimmings even better. Let the dogs out in a forest and field like environment and they will seek out weeds and other things to eat. Mine like to eat oak mast. They also like to eat poop. They will kill for chicken poop and they love spoiled cat food.
I can not say any of this will help your dog, just saying how some feed their dogs. Since mine can eat most anything I went back to the pedigree high protein because it is only $30 for a 50 lb bag. I use to feed them the authority pet smart band that is supposed to be rice based. Mine can eat most anything. One of them is the best garbage disposal and I just gave her some spoiled cottage cheese that had a pinch of bacon in it.
You might ask around for second vet opinions. It really sounds like you are going to loose that dog if you can not find a cure for it.

Picture of two healthy dogs. All white mother and her male pup, each is about 90lbs. The male pup will likely get much heavier.

58707

[georgeib]

Presumably parasite and amoeba tests have come back negative, right?

Other than that, the only thing I can think of is that you're feeding him very low quality food. Purina, Beneful, etc is crap. You will, at the very MINIMUM, need to go to one of the lower protein and fat Taste of The Wild formulas. Or something of similar or better quality. Nothing with corn, or grains in general if possible.

In the meantime, the standard protocol around here if a dog has very loose stool, is white rice cooked in some LOW SODIUM broth until things firm up. You should also supplement with extra broth to replenish his electrolytes.

Also, I would try a different vet immediately. Not saying that's the problem, but you never know what another set of eyes on the problem might see.

[jmoore]

Went through something very similar with one of my bulldogs. MRI showed masses throughout the abdomen that were presumed to be lymphomas. Transabdominal biopsies blew us all away when we found out it was a rare intra-abdominal (as opposed to the typical cutaneous variant) form of mast cell tumors everywhere. He is now on chemo. It won’t cure him or put him into remission, but it is giving him some quality time with us and his fur brothers & sisters. Life is good for now.
Good luck with your diagnosis. Maybe some imagery might help?

geezer john

[Papa]

The prednisone may need a little time to work.

We've been feeding our GSDs Royal Canin GSD kibble because of a suspected UTI. It worked and we're maintaining on it.

Keep us posted.

[Bill Bond]

Have you gone to a specialist, rather than your regular vet ?

Both my sister and myself have had dogs that nobody could figure out what the problem was.
We both took our dogs to the same internal medicine specialist,
and she figured out each one of them in a week after the test results came back.

[Tyler]

I hope your dog gets better! I know I like my dog better than 95% of people that I know.

[apamburn]

Nothing to add except that dogdoc is a vet I believe and might have some expert insight.

[P.D.]

Two questions cross my mind. The first is, has poisoning been ruled out? The second, has occult blood in the stool been ruled out?

[Mr. Anthony]

Sucks, man. Neighbors GSD just had to get put down because she kept losing weight and couldn't keep any food in her. She was only like 3 years old. I know her owner spent A LOT of money (she probably couldn't afford) and vet time trying to figure it out, but they never could.

Good luck.

[diving dave]

My English bulldog had allergies to just about every dogfood there was.... Got to the point she was getting scabby and losing hair in spots. We switched her to Blue Buffalo duck blend, and in a month huge difference.

[alistar]

I am not a vet. At least in humans, even when stool fat is not elevated but is borderline, I have sometimes found a trial of digestive enzymes helpful. There is no other treatment that I know of. Endocrine pancreas issues such as diabetes would show up in bloodwork, I would think.

[Patrick K]

Commercial dog food is shit...have you considered raw diet? Do a google search on Prey Model Diet and B.A.R.F. diet. Any questions, hit me on a pm. I have a Malinois.

[P.D.]

Commercial dog food is shit...have you considered raw diet? Do a google search on Prey Model Diet and B.A.R.F. diet. Any questions, hit me on a pm. I have a Malinois.
I'll second that. Dog food in most cases is made from the worst scraps and condemned meat from industrial butchers -- and that's before they add the crap "fillers".

[Bob F.]

Damn! Posted last last night but its disappeared,probably didn't hit post. Anyway, no blood in stool, several blood tests with nothing abnormal, nothing in labs to hint at cancer (my first suspicion w/ the wt loss). Blood test for pancreatic insufficiency was low -normal ruling that out. X-ray scheduled for this Thursday. Ruger is 7 years old so the exocrine pancreatic insufficiency was unlikely but not unheard of. It usually shows up in pups since its genetic. GSD's are the breed most likely to have it.

Vet is now suspecting irritable bowel syndrome. GSD's are known for sensitive stomachs. Everyones comments about diet make sense, Stopped coming home tonight and bought some Pedigree kibble, chicken broth, and a Freshpet chicken and veggie roll. Mixed some of that and some canned pumpkin for his meal tonight, Cooked up some rice and will feed a good portion of that with some of the other stuff in the morning. Just ordered a bag of Royal Canin GSD food, Any experience with that?

Ruger and Shadow ,the rescue, both share a 100' x100' enclosure so pretty much ruled out poisoning since Shadow should have gotten it too.

Thanks for all the input guys, really appreciate it.

Bob

[Bob F.]

Patrick, I check on those diets, kind of what barnetmill's white English dogs eat. Thanks!

[Papa]

The Royal Canin GSD stuff cleared up my big fella's UTI. All three mutts are eating it now. The black lab doesn't seem to mind.

[P.D.]

Damn! Posted last last night but its disappeared,probably didn't hit post. Anyway, no blood in stool, several blood tests with nothing abnormal, nothing in labs to hint at cancer (my first suspicion w/ the wt loss). Blood test for pancreatic insufficiency was low -normal ruling that out. X-ray scheduled for this Thursday. Ruger is 7 years old so the exocrine pancreatic insufficiency was unlikely but not unheard of. It usually shows up in pups since its genetic. GSD's are the breed most likely to have it.

Vet is now suspecting irritable bowel syndrome. GSD's are known for sensitive stomachs. Everyones comments about diet make sense, Stopped coming home tonight and bought some Pedigree kibble, chicken broth, and a Freshpet chicken and veggie roll. Mixed some of that and some canned pumpkin for his meal tonight, Cooked up some rice and will feed a good portion of that with some of the other stuff in the morning. Just ordered a bag of Royal Canin GSD food, Any experience with that?

Ruger and Shadow ,the rescue, both share a 100' x100' enclosure so pretty much ruled out poisoning since Shadow should have gotten it too.

Thanks for all the input guys, really appreciate it.

Bob

I won't be surprised if you find out your dog has been baited with broken glass, hence the bloody stool.

[georgeib]

Pedigree is absolute crap. Get some quality dog food for him. It doesn't even cost much more.

[Gunstore Commando]

I had a Dutch Shepherd with various digestive issues. For a time, at the vet's suggestion, I was feeding her boiled hamburger and rice. That worked okay. Doc ended up putting her on some kind of antibiotic (sorry, don't remember which one and Doc is retired now). That pretty much took care of the problem (pred did not help much, if I remember correctly).

Ended up having a lot of good years. She was like 15 when she had to be put to sleep, over something unrelated. Praying that you enjoy your pup for a long time too.

[barnetmill]

Pedigree is absolute crap. Get some quality dog food for him. It doesn't even cost much more.
It is not a quality food and not for dogs that can not handle it. My worry with it is the high amount of omega 6's in it that in humans and likely in dogs favor inflammation and heart problems. The omega 3's are the opposite.
Mine can handle it, but as they get older I will have to find them a reasonably priced source of omega 3s. It is produced naturally by some algae that eventually via the food chain end up in fish, krill, and other organisms.

I also supplement their dry dog food with eggs. Eggs are a cheap source of quality lipids and proteins. I give mine about a one jumbo egg daily, sometimes more.


One of the most asked questions here at DNM is, ” Can dogs eat eggs?” And there are a lot of myths and misconceptions about raw feeding and eggs!
It seems the poor egg is often dragged through the mud as a dangerous food for dogs. But is it?
Some say that eggs are too high in cholesterol … or they worry that they pose a risk of salmonella and will cause a biotin deficiency.
To that, I say nonsense!
Eggs are a cheap and safe source of raw food for your dog. And they’re one of the most complete and nutritious meals you can choose! https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/feeding-your-dog-raw-eggs-good-or-bad/

[Patrick K]

I would look into chicken leg quarters. The calcium to meat ratio is almost perfect. I recommend anybody starting out with any kind of a raw diet beginning on a cycle of that. You can't beat the price, and the nutrition content is far superior to any commercial dog food.

[Bob F.]

Again,THANKS!

What's a good,reasonably priced dry food? Royal Canin was $66 for a 30lb bag. I'm also gonna order some enzymes from Chewy. Eggs and leg quarters are on the menu.
There's no blood in his stool.

[barnetmill]

Again,THANKS!

What's a good,reasonably priced dry food? Royal Canin was $66 for a 30lb bag. I'm also gonna order some enzymes from Chewy. Eggs and leg quarters are on the menu.
There's no blood in his stool.
You may want to try cooking some of the chicken and put it into small slices. When I looked at the expensive dog foods, I decided at those prices I get could feed the dogs actual fish, meat, chicken, and eggs at that price and they would be better off. With my dogs if I give one of them meat than the others will want it too.
Walmarts and also other stores do have the rear leg quarters. These are not organic and free run chickens. The natural oils in mackerel prepared in brine will help the dog's also. One of the dollar stores gives the best price for it.

[jesmith]

Yep. If your pup truly has IBS, I would skip dry dog food altogether. It will irritate the lining of the bowels. Stick with raw meat, cooked or canned vegetables, and cooked rice. Lots of protein and fat.

[Greg Nichols]

I don't own a dog anymore, if I did the only thing I'd feed it is raw chicken and eggs (cooked or not), then supplement with vitamins. Store-bought food is garbage.

[Bob F.]

Xray tomorrow.Barring earth shattering news, here's the plan: This am Ruger got some of the Pedigree kibble, twice as much cooked rice, 1/2 cup of Swanson chicken broth, 1/4 cup of pure canned pumpkin. Royal Canin GSD food came today so he got a cup of rice, a cup of Royal Canin, a raw egg and some broth. Starting to taper the prednisone. Picked up a can of mackerel this pm. Will feed some of it tomorrow. Oh yeah, both got some ground beef, too.
Shadow will get some of the same but a lot of canned green beans to get his wt down. I'll have to slowly taper the amount of food for both. Ruger stole the little bag (maybe 2# left) of RC off the counter that some dummy left as I went out to work,
Will probably go to a raw diet, especially if Ruger improves. It's too early to tell but I'm hopeful.
Yeah, I like my dogs better than most people.

[Patrick K]

How did the x-ray go? I wouldn't cook any food, just give your dog the raw meat and bones....will cure what ails him. I supplement with coconut oil and CBD oil, other than that, all raw meat, bones, eggs, and vegetables.........imagine if your dog was wild, feed what he would find in nature.

[georgeib]

Guys, raw diet is not the way to go, for a slew of reasons. Especially for a dog that hasn't grown up with it. Royal Canin is okay... but there are better foods that are less expensive. I suggested Taste of The Wild earlier, and it is what all three of my GSDs eat.

With large breed dogs, like GSDs, a lower protein and fat formula is the way to go. With Taste of The Wild, go with either the Sierra Mountain or the Pacific Stream formulas. About $49 per 28 lb bag.

[Bob F.]

Darn George, missed your earlier post. Want to go back and read 'em all anyway. IBS and EPI are treatable, sort of. X-ray not good. Ruger has a very dilated colon (and large intestine). Probably a progressive problem over several months. As I said earlier we have a 100' x 100' enclosure, just open the door and let 'em out. Mid-summer I was on the porch and noticed Ruger had diarrhea.I assumed he'd gotten something maybe the cat dragged in, ground squirrel or the like. Nervous stomach?

But then started noticing the weight loss, progressively worse. Yesterday vet said "I'm at a loss, I've seen a case or two, but not this bad. Frankly don't know what to do." We,ve increased the prednisone and have referral to Virginia Tech Vet Internal Medicine. We see them 11/13 but not holding out much hope.

In the meantime feeding him well with the above suggestions. I'll keep y'all posted.

[Papa]

Bob, I'm sorry.

Praying for you, your family and Ruger.

[alistar]

"Toxic megacolon" (a very large and dilated colon is seen on imaging) happens in people with inflammatory bowel syndromes. I don't know if it happens in dogs. Prednisone, other immune suppressing drugs and perhaps antibiotics are used in large doses. It's very serious but time is of the essence and it can be reversed in people with aggressive therapy.
Danger if the colon perforates. Good luck.

[Bob F.]

"Other than the weight loss, and whatever's causing it, you have a very healthy dog." Dr Drury, DVM @Virginia-Maryland College of Veterinary Medicine

An update, sort of: Dr. Drury repeated much of what was done by my local vet, adding a complete fecal parasite check (for the odd stuff). Also an ultrasound of the abdomen which showed a mottled liver. So they did a needle biopsy of the liver which was negative, mottling probably due to prednisone therapy. Everything was negative except the "Texas panel" which is the test for EPI (See earlier post) and a couple other things, I really think Dr. Drury is leaning toward the EPI, but probably won't have the results from Texas A&M until Tuesday.

Keeping our fingers crossed but I'm a lot more optimistic than I was last Tuesday,

[Patrick K]

What do you base raw diet comment on? I know taste of the wild has been recalled before.

[Bob F.]

Patrick, don't think your question re: raw diet was directed to me, Due to time constraints, I'll probably continue to feed a kibble but lots of eggs, canned mackerel, and some raw chicken. Fat boy (Shadow, the rescue) is getting lots of green beans! I think his wt gain is due to him cleaning the yard up after Ruger (eating poop).

[Papa]

"Recycling. It's easy to do."

[BillyOblivion]

...lower protein and fat Taste of The Wild formulas. Or something of similar or better quality. Nothing with corn, or grains in general if possible.


We our mutt Taste of the Wild, getting a different flavor just about every time. And table scraps (meat mostly).

Good luck with your dog.

[SARGeek]

Have you checked for EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency)? There is a Panel from Texas A&M that is available to vets. We were fighting similar issues, no giardia, no other parasites, etc. but loose stool and she lost 20lbs in 4 months. The regular blood work didn't find anything but the A&M panel found it right away.

70% of cases in doss are GSD's, 20% are Rough Collies. So it's pretty specific to them. It is treatable, but it's a lifelong treatment plan. Basically, the pancreas isn't producing the enzymes needed to break food down to be properly digested.

PM me if you want more info. We have found some good sources and info from GSD owners groups.

EDIT: Sorry, missed the previous EPI posts.

[Bob F.]

SARGeek: you've pulled one of my tricks, not reading previous posts. LOL!! VA Tech called this afternoon with results from Texas A&M. EPI test came back low normal. as did local send out. Dr. Drury is convinced that is the problem. They also found his B-12 level is low and folate is high. Enzymes have been ordered, B-12 shot on Thursday at local vet and both docs feel folate will be ok after digestion and B-12. Dr. Bays (local) said that EPI is seen mostly in GSD, but usually in pups although is does pop up in adults rarely.

They also think the dilated colon will resolve with the above treatment. Time will tell.

FYI B-12 is in fish, animal products, milk, eggs, etc. Per y'all's advice Ruger has been getting eggs, canned mackerel, raw chicken, etc. Good call guys!

[barnetmill]

SARGeek: you've pulled one of my tricks, not reading previous posts. LOL!! VA Tech called this afternoon with results from Texas A&M. EPI test came back low normal. as did local send out. Dr. Drury is convinced that is the problem. They also found his B-12 level is low and folate is high. Enzymes have been ordered, B-12 shot on Thursday at local vet and both docs feel folate will be ok after digestion and B-12. Dr. Bays (local) said that EPI is seen mostly in GSD, but usually in pups although is does pop up in adults rarely.

They also think the dilated colon will resolve with the above treatment. Time will tell.

FYI B-12 is in fish, animal products, milk, eggs, etc. Per y'all's advice Ruger has been getting eggs, canned mackerel, raw chicken, etc. Good call guys!

The lack of enzymes for sure no matter what you feed will result in non-digestion of ingested food. Hopefully this does it and Ruger does well and appreciates what you are doing for him.

[Patrick K]

Glad to hear things are better

[Bob F.]

Damn,you guys are amazing. Y'all pretty much had it figured out early on. Went to local vet today ordered enzymes and "skinny" got his first B-12 shot. Dr. Bays expects pretty quick weight gain as soon a we start the meds, hopefully Monday.

[Papa]

Look at the bright side. Nobody takes a fat GSD seriously.

And seriously, good news.

[babue]

Great news. Always good news when the road to recovery is started.