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View Full Version : FIVE REASONS WHY THE SHOTGUN FELL OUT OF FAVOR



Gabriel Suarez
09-17-2019, 09:44 AM
58429

I think the shotgun fell out of favor for a number of reasons

1). The competition-centric focus on scores on a target. It is easier for a range officer to score a rifle target than a shotgun pattern.

2). The increase of frail people in the public and private sectors tasked with using weapons. A 5'0" 110 pound kid can be shown marksmanship with an AR, but a 12 ga may be too much. It is not an all-inclusive, egalitarian weapon.

3). Did I mention that people seem to be weaker and softer these days?

4). The unwarranted fear of needing to account for every single projectile. Even with an SMG or Pistol, that is impossible and I submit that due to its nature, there will be fewer misses with a shotgun.

5). There are no Daniel Defense or Noveskes in the shotgun world to market them, and few full-sleeved, neckbeards on Youtube champion them...and as we know with the new generations...loking cool is almost more important than being effective.

Greg Nichols
09-17-2019, 10:03 AM
I agree with 2 and 3 whole heartedly. When I began competing with a shotgun I was in 4th or 5th grade and used a full sized 870 12ga Wingmaster that had the stock cut down to properly fit me. It was the first major purchase I had ever made and I loved it. I would shoot, in excess of 75 rounds in an evening meet and never had a problem, but then again I was a wrestler and farm kid and strong for my age and size. The majority of todays kids that I see, wouldn't be able to handle pointing a full length shotgun, much less manage the recoil of one, and they aren't much better when they reach adulthood.

Papa
09-17-2019, 10:33 AM
2-4 absolutely. Bold and italics for #4.

I don't know when I last competed in an actual match, and as for #5--we've got you, and we don't give a big rat's ass about looking cool.

Waton18
09-17-2019, 10:59 AM
SAS seems to be using shotguns very effectively.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7465523/amp/SAS-hero-shotgun-kills-five-ISIS-fighters-just-seven-seconds.html

IANative
09-17-2019, 11:24 AM
I agree with 2 and 3 whole heartedly. When I began competing with a shotgun I was in 4th or 5th grade and used a full sized 870 12ga Wingmaster that had the stock cut down to properly fit me. It was the first major purchase I had ever made and I loved it. I would shoot, in excess of 75 rounds in an evening meet and never had a problem, but then again I was a wrestler and farm kid and strong for my age and size. The majority of todays kids that I see, wouldn't be able to handle pointing a full length shotgun, much less manage the recoil of one, and they aren't much better when they reach adulthood.

Conversely, I was a skinny bean pole with zero muscle mass and my old Stevens 20ga Single Gun used to leave me bruised and sore after a morning squirrel hunt. When I went to boot camp at age 20 I was 6'1" and 135 lbs (Uncle Sam requested a weight waiver because I was "underweight") and was still very recoil sensitive to 12 ga loads. 50 pounds of (mostly) extra muscle took care of that.

I will say that fit and form have a lot to do with felt recoil from shotties, especially when talking hunting/sporting shotguns and heavy loads, but there's no substitute for having some muscle to brace that shotgun against.

Badger
09-17-2019, 03:22 PM
I also recall the impact the end of the AWB had on everything gun related back in 2004. That, combined with the GWOT, had a largely negative impact on pretty much anything long gun related that wasn’t an AR or similar.

Dpswift
09-17-2019, 03:48 PM
And .... 6) Shotguns don't accept Glock magazines.

Johnny C!
09-17-2019, 04:35 PM
I was hot on 870's and the proficiency thereof back
in the 90's. SI renewed my interest in the platform
along with the advent of the Tac-14's. I rank them
right up there with my red dot Glocks. Both are
beasts that I cannot get enough of.

John

coastalcop
09-17-2019, 06:00 PM
I’ve got a .gov shorty 870 that I have a fair amount or real trigger time with and it has worked well. However I started looking at trying a semi . Checked SI website... out of tac-13. Damn. But I started collecting parts to make a fixed brace adjustable tac-13. SI puts together several good kits for this in addition to their custom work.

I’m going to build one out as I get parts and wring it out against my go to standby in my .gov 870. Can/will it do it better. I’ve said before my go to for unknowns is my .300 sbr, but door kicking, known cqb, etc. my 870 is where it’s at.

On a proactive role I pick the package that fits best as always. But understand that the shotgun in last few years has been largely downplayed in the mainstream ( discounting a former VP ;). And is an amazingly capable tool.

psalms23dad
09-17-2019, 07:05 PM
As a student that only found SI a few years ago, I agree 100% with Gabe's post even though I'm guilty of not owning a dedicated fighting shot gun.
Social media has become a social disease, with no exception to the firearms training industry.

Sam Spade
09-17-2019, 11:30 PM
Locally, the concern over pellet placement is what did the shotgun in. Before it essentially disappeared, the liability managers mandated single-projectile loads for patrol carry. It was a fantastic load in terms of damage on target, but it obviously took away any type of speed advantage.

paranoid
09-18-2019, 02:48 AM
I would add low capacity to the list. Also taking thousand round rifle class is more appealing too many than a thousand round shotgun class.
I recently picked up a new 1301 that I think has a lot of potential.

John_Frederick
09-18-2019, 03:09 AM
I recently picked up a new 1301 that I think has a lot of potential.

I just finished this one up myself...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190918/e7bcdf7a44be39ba2c80adef5034d9e2.jpg

apamburn
09-18-2019, 05:36 AM
Locally, the concern over pellet placement is what did the shotgun in. Before it essentially disappeared, the liability managers mandated single-projectile loads for patrol carry. It was a fantastic load in terms of damage on target, but it obviously took away any type of speed advantage.

"We're worried that some .32 cal shot pellets MIGHT go around the target, so let's require patrol to use slugs which WILL go through their target"

Makes total sense

paranoid
09-18-2019, 05:54 AM
I just finished this one up myself...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190918/e7bcdf7a44be39ba2c80adef5034d9e2.jpg
Aridus Industries has some good upgrades for the 1301 platform. I do wish they made a plus one only extension though.

Gabriel Suarez
09-18-2019, 07:51 AM
I would add low capacity to the list. Also taking thousand round rifle class is more appealing too many than a thousand round shotgun class.
I recently picked up a new 1301 that I think has a lot of potential.

So on Capacity - most 12 ga I ever used in one fight was three rounds. And yes, they all hit.

Other than an LE in a tactical event, anyone able to give me a case of a Private Person using more rounds than is commonly held in a standard 12 ga? Because we can theorize until we are near death...but reality will not change. Anyone?

Greg Nichols
09-18-2019, 08:17 AM
I find a lot of times that it's a case of "If a little does a lot, then a lot should do wonders". Early on in my previous life it was common for troops to carry at least 8 spare mags + the one in the rifle or more. After some experience you see that rapidly drop to 3-4 mags + the one in the rifle as they realized they weren't using that many magazines in a firefight.

With the shotgun, at most even when breaching you'll use 2-4 rounds to blow down the door, which is the most ammo intensive use you'll see without the opportunity to top off the gun.

Papa
09-18-2019, 08:45 AM
I guarantee that no one would voluntarily carry a 20-30 round 12 gauge for any significant time or distance.

Gabriel Suarez
09-18-2019, 08:49 AM
I guarantee that no one would voluntarily carry a 20-30 round 12 gauge for any significant time or distance.

I dunno...Bubba Belly might carry it from the trunk of his used car to the bench if he can park close enough...

Papa
09-18-2019, 08:56 AM
And if he had help.

Shotgun as crew-served weapon.

Dorkface
09-18-2019, 09:02 AM
If people would understand that shotguns and rifles are different and that they are run differently they might have a light bulb moment.

The world isn't made up of mag dumps and speed reloads.

Jeff22
09-18-2019, 11:05 PM
"had the stock cut down to properly fit me"

Fit of the gun to the shooter is critical. It doesn't matter if it's a revolver or an auto pistol or a shotgun or a rifle. The regular stocks on an M870 shotgun were too long for shorter operators with shorter arms. They couldn't mount the gun properly and so the recoil beat the hell out of them.

I'm 6 ft 4 and 240 so a regular stock fit me okay but the stock on my personal M870 is a little shorter than standard. I also have express sights on my gun. I personally always shot better with express sights or rifle sights or aperture sights than I did with just a bead sight. I have very little experience with an RDS on a shotgun.

I tried without success to get my PD to shorten the stocks on the M870 and get rifle sights. Then in 2002 we got AR pattern rifles and never looked back.

Jollyroger0331
09-19-2019, 11:26 AM
I'd add on that people who know nothing about shotguns tried to train others and tried to make the shotgun a rifle. If your entire idea about a shotgun is that it should handle like a rifle then you'll of course think an actual rifle is a better choice.

Destro
10-18-2019, 07:50 PM
The GCA 1968-mandated disconnect makes the pump shotgun more complex than it needs to be. Fortunately, Adler is importing a lever action .12 gauge, too. Hopefully it will be an excellent weapon, too.

HeavySmoke
10-19-2019, 12:47 PM
I think what initially caused a stray is lack of a good way to carry spare ammo. I still carry a shotgun, and a dump pouch on my duty belt. If I bail out with the shotgun I usually dump the 5 shot box of buckshot in there if I remember to. The shotgun and the rifle are very different animals. The decline in popularity has to do with the lack of understanding the differences. I carry a sig 716 as a patrol rifle and as a mostly rural department it works. If we are dealing with something in town or in a more close quarter environment I always go to the shotgun. Way out in the boonies I prefer the 716. I am literally the only one on my shift that still packs a shotgun, but I'm also the only one on my shift that slings a .308 I guess I'm just different.

Gabriel Suarez
10-19-2019, 05:19 PM
The spare ammo carry is not such a big deal. A leather or nylon pouch on the belt worked fine. It is a mistake to think the shotgun are sustained fire weapons. They aren't they are deployed...destroy their target and reloaded if necessary to destroy another. Think of a pistol fight...then given prior warning. You take a SHOTGUN with you because in that envelope of use it does things better than a drawn pistol and defeats the rifle in speed of deployment and destructive power with minimal number of shots fired

jlwilliams
10-20-2019, 01:20 PM
A lot has changed in the last several decades, but some things have not. My opinion, as an outsider looking in, is that the shift away from shotguns in law enforcement is in part based on "out with the old, in with the new" thinking. The fast and flat shooting 5.56 carbine is in relative terms new. The 12ga shotty is grandpa's gun. Just my free opinion, but I think the shotgun suffers from a gray whiskers image.

Papa
10-20-2019, 03:47 PM
The 12ga shotty is grandpa's gun. Just my free opinion, but I think the shotgun suffers from a gray whiskers image.

58615

Well, got gray whiskers, and I am a grandpa. So yep, this is grandpa's gun.

choirboy
10-21-2019, 08:27 PM
I can keep anything that I want next to my bed -- that includes belt fed - I keep a 7 shot 870 for bumps that might be in the house or are close outside. AND an AK-47. The AK goes bang every time. The longest unobstructed shot from my house is a little over 200 yards and I am more than minute of a man at that distance. The AK will kill vehicles with reasonable certainty -- not as good as my M1-A, but close.

I still love the sound of the 870 getting racked. I do not care if it scares bad guys -- it gives me a wake-up adrenaline rush.

Choirboy