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View Full Version : ATF letter on shotguns with braces - Black Aces Tactical Pro Series 5, and Pro Series



TwoBodyOneHead
08-19-2019, 08:01 PM
Interesting to discuss if this applies to the brace innovations here.


In the letter, ATF states that based on the A&D Records of Black Aces Tactical, the recipient of the letter may “have received one or more Black Aces Tactical Pro Series 5 or Pro Series 9 firearms.” It goes on to state that certain configurations of those firearms may have brought them into the purview of the NFA.

ATF’s inquiry involves Black Aces Tactical Pro Series 5, and Pro Series 9, firearms incorporating folding stabilizing braces and smoothbore barrels of less than eighteen (18) inches. These firearms are either designed and assembled to be fired from the shoulder by the inclusion of extenders and spacers and thus constitute a shotgun with a barrel length of less than eighteen (18) inches in length, or are assembled such that they were not designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder, and when the brace is folded, are less than 26 inches and thus capable of being concealed on a person.

In other words, the firearms in question are either Short Barrel Shotguns (if they were designed and assembled to be fired from the shoulder) or Any Other Weapons) if they were not but have an OAL of less than 26 inches with the stabilizing brace folded.

https://www.recoilweb.com/have-a-black-aces-tactical-pro-series-5-or-9-you-just-may-have-an-unregistered-aow-152400.html

Sam Spade
08-20-2019, 01:18 AM
I've never understood why people invite the Eye of Mordor to gaze in their direction.

Greg Nichols
08-20-2019, 07:16 AM
STOP ASKING PERMISSION

Gabriel Suarez
08-20-2019, 07:31 AM
Well...too late now Greg. The Mother May I Crowd strikes again. To fix the concern, guys can use this - https://suarezinternational.com/suarez-tac-14-pointman-brace-system-12ga/

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-ve6rdd5n1f/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/3039/14553/Suarez-Fixed-Brace_4__78837.1565284228.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on&imbypass=on

ShopMonkey
08-20-2019, 08:11 AM
well since assholes keep poking the bear, the folding brace is not designed in a manner that once installed, lends itself to being fired in a folded position as it impedes the use of the action bars therefore limiting function of the firearm.

Brent Yamamoto
08-20-2019, 08:37 AM
Thanks a lot, permission seekers. Great job.

Gabriel Suarez
08-20-2019, 08:55 AM
THE GUN COMMUNITY

https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/15/57/318432/3/920x920.jpg

Dorkface
08-20-2019, 09:32 AM
These are the kind of people that would call and ask their parents if they can have sex...

Gabriel Suarez
08-20-2019, 10:07 AM
These are the kind of people that would call and ask their parents if they can have sex...

At this point the gun community deserves whatever it gets....and it has brought it all on itself.

Papa
08-20-2019, 10:30 AM
I've never understood why people invite the Eye of Mordor to gaze in their direction.

58312

"I leave it to you. Do men of our profession worry about things like that? It may even be sacreligious!"

TwoBodyOneHead
08-20-2019, 10:55 AM
In this case nobody wrote to the ATF. It looks like the ATF has obtained a list of FFLs who have been supplied the gun from the manufacturer. The ATF is now asking the FFLs where the guns are.

Gabriel Suarez
08-20-2019, 01:01 PM
I doubt it began that way.

This is what happens when people act like Boy Scouts. Only options are to put the shockwave PG on again, add a longer barrel, or change to the non-folding unit we sell. There may be an option to modify the folder to remain open with a drill and a welding rod, but I am not sure.

As a side note...every single AK built by Fuller and Century and others with a folding stock is 25 1/2" long with the stock folded.

DogDoc
08-20-2019, 02:30 PM
So why is it that the ATF can retroactively criminalize legally-purchased property?
Weren’t guns bought before the assault weapons ban still legal to own during the ban for example?

Gabriel Suarez
08-20-2019, 02:36 PM
So why is it that the ATF can retroactively criminalize legally-purchased property?
Weren’t guns bought before the assault weapons ban still legal to own during the ban for example?

Because gun people in the USA are some of the most timid on the planet and want to ask about every single motherf**** thing .
Check your Fuller AKs kiddos...unless anyone wants to send a letter asking about them.

Faramir2
08-20-2019, 02:41 PM
Because gun people in the USA are some of the most timid on the planet and want to ask about every single motherf**** thing .
Check your Fuller AKs kiddos...unless anyone wants to send a letter asking about them.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THIS APOCALYPSE

(not you, Gabe, just any other complete idiot who can't control his pen.)

DogDoc
08-20-2019, 03:22 PM
So is that any AK with a folder or is there something special about the Fullers?

Gabriel Suarez
08-20-2019, 03:27 PM
I dunno...fold an measure. I have no more AKs but every single Fuller build I had was 25.75" with the AK-100 stock folded.

Dorkface
08-20-2019, 04:09 PM
From what I can tell the problem stems from people adding the spacers and what not in order to change the "length of pull" for lack of a better term and in doing so showing intent to change it into a shoulder weapon. Bunch of morons. I am not exactly small and I like the SB3 brace on my AR pistol just fine. Then again I don't have a sunken chest and have a grasp of every thing at play.

The folded length doesn't matter as a gun is measured with the stock extended.

Gabriel Suarez
08-20-2019, 04:36 PM
From what I can tell the problem stems from people adding the spacers and what not in order to change the "length of pull" for lack of a better term and in doing so showing intent to change it into a shoulder weapon. Bunch of morons. I am not exactly small and I like the SB3 brace on my AR pistol just fine. Then again I don't have a sunken chest and have a grasp of every thing at play.

The folded length doesn't matter as a gun is measured with the stock extended.

Try telling that to Elmer Fudd "mother may I" internet types.

DogDoc
08-20-2019, 05:00 PM
In re-reading the letter excerpt, it seems that it was the spacer (Which indicated that it was intended to make it a shoulder weapon) not the folding mechanism that was the issue. I wonder if the SI Pointman folder is OK then...

And no, I'm not going to write a letter and ask them.

Where's LawDog?

Dorkface
08-20-2019, 05:06 PM
In re-reading the letter excerpt, it seems that it was the spacer (Which indicated that it was intended to make it a shoulder weapon) not the folding mechanism that was the issue. I wonder if the SI Pointman folder is OK then...

And no, I'm not going to write a letter and ask them.

Where's LawDog?

The folder is intended to make it easier to store. What is so hard?

DogDoc
08-20-2019, 05:11 PM
The folder is intended to make it easier to store. What is so hard?

Yeah I don't see the issue for the folder as long as it wasn't intended to be a shoulder stock by adding shite to extend the length of pull by some moron manufacturer. But then I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on the interweb.

Dorkface
08-20-2019, 05:17 PM
Yeah I don't see the issue for the folder as long as it wasn't intended to be a shoulder stock by adding shite to extend the length of pull by some moron manufacturer. But then I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on the interweb.

So you literally want to ask for permission in a thread who's over arching theme is STOP ASKING FOR PERMISSION?

This is why we can't have nice things...

Gabriel Suarez
08-20-2019, 05:19 PM
So you literally want to ask for permission in a thread who's over arching theme is STOP ASKING FOR PERMISSION?

This is why we can't have nice things...

This

Hasher
08-20-2019, 05:47 PM
A very long time ago Gabe coined a term for a certain type of student. It was OG and stood for Original Grasshopper.

Gabe can tell that whole story but let’s just say he and his cabal got banned.

Maybe we need a nrw new term for those who wish to ask the nanny state for permission for everything.

ON = Original Nanny


I am sure the tribe can come up with a few ideas.

Hasher
08-20-2019, 05:48 PM
OF = Original Fudd

DogDoc
08-20-2019, 06:24 PM
So you literally want to ask for permission in a thread who's over arching theme is STOP ASKING FOR PERMISSION?

This is why we can't have nice things...


I don’t recall asking anyone’s permission for anything.
If you read what I posted, you’ll see that I was agreeing with you that this thread is likely much ado about nothing for us based on the wording of the letter.

I did mention being interested in LawDog’s opinion but mostly because I thought his take on the letter would be more interesting than the posts of legally-illiterate folks bashing sheeple-brained Fudds and getting into a froth about something that apparently has nothing to do with the SI folding brace or with sheeple-brained Funds contacting the ATF.

Mushinto
08-20-2019, 08:14 PM
I doubt it began that way.

This is what happens when people act like Boy Scouts. Only options are to put the shockwave PG on again, add a longer barrel, or change to the non-folding unit we sell. There may be an option to modify the folder to remain open with a drill and a welding rod, but I am not sure.

As a side note...every single AK built by Fuller and Century and others with a folding stock is 25 1/2" long with the stock folded.

I think the difference is that those AKs are pistols and the overall length does not matter.

The shotguns, or shotguns that are called firearms, are different in that they can never be pistols.

But then again, in ATF's Disneyland any thing is possible.

--ML

barnetmill
08-20-2019, 09:16 PM
I think the difference is that those AKs are pistols and the overall length does not matter.

The shotguns, or shotguns that are called firearms, are different in that they can never be pistols.

But then again, in ATF's Disneyland any thing is possible.

--ML
No, these are standard AK carbines that people are talking about. It depends on the tang and also if the flash hider is welded on or not. I know my MAK90 is very close to 26 inches without the flash hider on it. But it could be a quarter inch short. underfolders with the tang cut off and folded will be shorter. Weld on the flash hider and mine should be longer than 26 inches.

MesserMan
08-20-2019, 11:48 PM
So, you’re still shipping your Tac-14 folding brace systems, right?

Dorkface
08-21-2019, 05:40 AM
I don’t recall asking anyone’s permission for anything.
If you read what I posted, you’ll see that I was agreeing with you that this thread is likely much ado about nothing for us based on the wording of the letter.

I did mention being interested in LawDog’s opinion but mostly because I thought his take on the letter would be more interesting than the posts of legally-illiterate folks bashing sheeple-brained Fudds and getting into a froth about something that apparently has nothing to do with the SI folding brace or with sheeple-brained Funds contacting the ATF.

You are though. You think you are being clever in seeking validation from another source but aren't considering secondary or tertiary effects. What if you asked a lawyer for permission and they don't grasp the anything but subtle sublelty of the situation and decide to write the BATF for permission for you? Things could end up in the exact same place.

If anyone reading this doesn't understand the nuance of the situation please do the rest of us a favor; sell all your guns and spend the rest of your days watching the price is right. You are part of the problem.

barnetmill
08-21-2019, 06:52 AM
I see a bit of chicken little thinking going on.

This is field of big boys rules. These rules are not consistent and in fact are arbitrary often according to political hysteria.
I as a civilian that is not in the business will never be calling or writing the ATF for an opinion. I will look at their website if I feel it might have an answer, but I will not correspond with them.
There is little concern for well established items relative to ATF approval like the shockwave and Tac-14 that come off the production lines of major firearms companies.
The armbrace thing is not so secure. I would not buy from someone that turns them out in his garage. I would feel better when purchasing such to see a letter of ATF approval. If there is not one since I am buying it in good faith via legal channels of commerce the worst case scenario that I foresee is a recall/confiscation by the feds and such would not be the end of the world for me. I would turn it or destroy it.
I have other guns.
The world has never been a safe place and there is an old saying is that you are damned if you do and damned if you do not. Use the best information that you have and then decide.

Gabriel Suarez
08-21-2019, 06:53 AM
I think the difference is that those AKs are pistols and the overall length does not matter.

The shotguns, or shotguns that are called firearms, are different in that they can never be pistols.

But then again, in ATF's Disneyland any thing is possible.

--ML

https://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/4153/990466904/wm_6723565.jpg

RIFLE NOT PISTOL
FOLDED LENGTH 25 3/4"

DogDoc
08-21-2019, 07:06 AM
You are though. You think you are being clever in seeking validation from another source but aren't considering secondary or tertiary effects. What if you asked a lawyer for permission and they don't grasp the anything but subtle sublelty of the situation and decide to write the BATF for permission for you? Things could end up in the exact same place.


Yeah...I could definitely see LawDog doing that. ROFLMAO


The letter specifically says it relates to smooth bore weapons.
AKs aren’t smooth bore. Why are we talking about them?

The letter specifically mentions spacers intended to make the weapon a shoulder weapon.
The SI folder has no such spacers. Why are we talking about it?

Dorkface, I wasn’t inviting LawDog’s input so I could have permission to keep my stuff. I was interested in it because I thought it would agree with my interpretation of the letter (and I assumed yours as well) that it had no bearing on the SI product.

Reflexively getting off the X and point shooting is a great tactic in a fight, but in a discussion it’s more useful to figure out what the other guy is saying before you go at him. You may actually find you’re both saying the same thing.

Gabriel Suarez
08-21-2019, 07:11 AM
The letter specifically says it relates to smooth bore weapons.
AKs aren’t smooth bore. Why are we talking about them?

The one written for the AR Pistol relates specifically to these as well bro.

The letter specifically mentions spacers intended to make the weapon a shoulder weapon.
The SI folder has no such spacers. Why are we talking about it?

I know...but if I said that nobody would believe me. It also states VFG and Two handed use and all that Jazz... Just a matter of time before some Cub Scout two finger salutes a letter about it to the ATF.

Dorkface, I wasn’t inviting LawDog’s input so I could have permission to keep my stuff. I was interested in it because I thought it would agree with my interpretation of the letter (and I assumed yours as well) that it had no bearing on the SI product.

Reflexively getting off the X and point shooting is a great tactic in a fight, but in a discussion it’s more useful to figure out what the other guy is saying before you go at him. You may actually find you’re both saying the same thing.

Yep


https://www.tundras.com/media/morgan-freeman-meme-04.11001/full?d=1538275450

Gabriel Suarez
08-21-2019, 07:24 AM
58319

58320

Papa
08-21-2019, 09:53 AM
Dust settled yet? Where are we?

Mushinto
08-21-2019, 12:30 PM
RIFLE NOT PISTOL
FOLDED LENGTH 25 3/4"

Sorry for my assumption, and thanks for the clarification.

However, that brings up an interesting point that I once debated with ATF.

Federal law defines a short barreled rifle as, "a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;" It defines a short barreled shotgun as, "a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;."

I had a Marble Game Getter, which is an over / under shotgun, with 18" barrels and a top folding stock. The overall length was about 24". I took it to sell at a gun show, circa 1980. The resident ATF agent told me that it was "illegal" because the OL was less than 26". I told him that the weapon was manufactured in that configuration (in 1912), so it did not fall under the 26" rule. He did not agree. I agreed to take it back to my car and I guess I was lucky in that. I later called the NFA branch and they said I was right. Later, just for the hell of it, I called my local ATF office and they said that they thought I was wrong, but was not 100% sure.

So, I would say based on my internet law degree and the plain reading of the law, that if those rifles were "manufactured" with an OL under 26" it would be OK. But if they were "modified" that way, it would not be OK.

I am really tired of ATF's shit. Even my ex-wife was more consistent, and gave better ****.

-- ML

Faramir2
08-21-2019, 01:17 PM
Sorry for my assumption, and thanks for the clarification.

However, that brings up an interesting point that I once debated with ATF.

Federal law defines a short barreled rifle as, "a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;" It defines a short barreled shotgun as, "a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;."

I had a Marble Game Getter, which is an over / under shotgun, with 18" barrels and a top folding stock. The overall length was about 24". I took it to sell at a gun show, circa 1980. The resident ATF agent told me that it was "illegal" because the OL was less than 26". I told him that the weapon was manufactured in that configuration (in 1912), so it did not fall under the 26" rule. He did not agree. I agreed to take it back to my car and I guess I was lucky in that. I later called the NFA branch and they said I was right. Later, just for the hell of it, I called my local ATF office and they said that they thought I was wrong, but was not 100% sure.

So, I would say based on my internet law degree and the plain reading of the law, that if those rifles were "manufactured" with an OL under 26" it would be OK. But if they were "modified" that way, it would not be OK.

I am really tired of ATF's shit. Even my ex-wife was more consistent, and gave better ****.

-- ML

Gotta love an agency tasked with promulgating rules and regulations that cannot seem to figure out how to do so consistently. But then again, welcome to human lawmaking institutions.

I'm exactly halfway through my first week of law school classes, and boy has that come out in spades already...

Mushinto
08-21-2019, 04:31 PM
58319

58320

That is awesome.

--ML

Gabriel Suarez
08-22-2019, 07:53 AM
UPDATE FROM OUR FRIENDS AT BLACK ACES

Hi Gabe, Eric from Black Aces Tactical here. Just a quick note about the ATF letter. No one went to the ATF and asked permission about the folders. It was only recently that the ATF has decided to change their view on folding braces for firearm/other weapons and August 2018 we were approached. Through our attorneys, Black Aces Tactical has been working with the ATF to formulate an acceptable solution over the 12 months, and the end result is the letter stating that the customers are to configure their weapons to the 2014 approval letter.

Additionally, this is and will affect a multitude of weapons. The assistant director of the ATF has stated that all in the industry will receive equal treatment.

So there it is. Options are to

1). Add a 16" length barrel or add a breacher of 2" to your barrel - we will see about the breacher and the service at the store.
2). Permanently secure the brace into an open position - gotta see your gunsmith or machinist for that...out of our wheel house.
3). Change the brace to a fixed brace such as what we have for the Tac-series from SB Tactical and configured by us in the Pointman series.

And if you have ANY weapon with a folding stock, make sure it fits within the characteristics.

Papa
08-22-2019, 08:54 AM
M1A1 carbine: 25.75".

Gabriel Suarez
08-22-2019, 09:08 AM
M1A1 carbine: 25.75".

Oh well. :dunno::dunno::dunno:

barnetmill
08-22-2019, 10:09 AM
http://www.warriortalk.com/images/SeamusLight/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Papa http://www.warriortalk.com/images/SeamusLight/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?p=1943206#post1943206)
M1A1 carbine: 25.75".



Oh well. :dunno::dunno::dunno:

I thought this was all for smooth bore weapons that normally must have 18 barrels and 26 inches or 14 inches and still have 26 inches overall length without a shoulder stock. Where are pistols and rifles fitting into this new ruling.

Gabriel Suarez
08-22-2019, 10:26 AM
http://www.warriortalk.com/images/SeamusLight/misc/quote_icon.png
I thought this was all for smooth bore weapons that normally must have 18 barrels and 26 inches or 14 inches and still have 26 inches overall length without a shoulder stock. Where are pistols and rifles fitting into this new ruling.

I do not know and I do not care. See the copy of the email I posted, feel free to extrapolate what you will.

Additionally, this is and will affect a multitude of weapons.

Brent Yamamoto
08-22-2019, 10:56 AM
Government regulators, always adding value to humanity.

Greg Nichols
08-22-2019, 01:30 PM
I just remember when tactics, equipment, and mind set threads got this much engagement and attention

MesserMan
08-23-2019, 07:11 PM
Damnit. And I just picked up a folding Tac14 brace from the gear store. Time to get a 16” bbl I guess...

BillyOblivion
08-23-2019, 09:10 PM
Try telling that to Elmer Fudd "mother may I" internet types.

Most of them already have two black eyes.

jlwilliams
08-24-2019, 08:01 AM
M1A1 carbine: 25.75".

I doubt existing guns, particularly C&R stuff like the 'Lil Carbine will be effected. I think there is at least one company making copies of that today, they might need to deal with this with new made inventory but I really doubt anyone gives a crap about the gazillions of old M1 Carbines in gun safes and at ranges. Might as well start worrying about Broomhandles and whether or not you can run a repro stock or if it has to be original (no joke, it gets debated on geezer boards.) The fact is, no one cares.

Mushinto
12-24-2019, 10:54 AM
UPDATE FROM OUR FRIENDS AT BLACK ACES

Hi Gabe, Eric from Black Aces Tactical here. Just a quick note about the ATF letter. No one went to the ATF and asked permission about the folders. It was only recently that the ATF has decided to change their view on folding braces for firearm/other weapons and August 2018 we were approached. Through our attorneys, Black Aces Tactical has been working with the ATF to formulate an acceptable solution over the 12 months, and the end result is the letter stating that the customers are to configure their weapons to the 2014 approval letter.

Additionally, this is and will affect a multitude of weapons. The assistant director of the ATF has stated that all in the industry will receive equal treatment.

So there it is. Options are to

1). Add a 16" length barrel or add a breacher of 2" to your barrel - we will see about the breacher and the service at the store.
2). Permanently secure the brace into an open position - gotta see your gunsmith or machinist for that...out of our wheel house.
3). Change the brace to a fixed brace such as what we have for the Tac-series from SB Tactical and configured by us in the Pointman series.

And if you have ANY weapon with a folding stock, make sure it fits within the characteristics.

Or, install the folding brace you already have on an AOW, which is my plan.

-- ML

Jesuvuah
12-25-2019, 02:24 PM
From my original understanding of this new made up rule, is that this new way of measuring is for firearms and pistols, not rifles. I believe atf still measures a rifle in the longest configuration., But they are now measuring the others in the folder/shortest configuration.

Sent from my moto e5 (XT1920DL) using Tapatalk

Greg Nichols
12-26-2019, 07:15 AM
In all my years of shooting, training, and teaching, I've seen the ATF actually out measuring weapons exactly zero times.

Gabriel Suarez
12-26-2019, 09:14 AM
In all my years of shooting, training, and teaching, I've seen the ATF actually out measuring weapons exactly zero times.


Maybe someone should write a letter to the ATF for clarification?

TwoBodyOneHead
12-26-2019, 10:27 AM
In all my years of shooting, training, and teaching, I've seen the ATF actually out measuring weapons exactly zero times.

How many weapons have police departments taken "for safe keeping" or "evaluation" outside of being found alongside an actual crime? How many have been charged with regulation violations are at least lost their weapons?

Fyrfytr998
12-29-2019, 07:53 PM
In all my years of shooting, training, and teaching, I've seen the ATF actually out measuring weapons exactly zero times.

It happened in my state.

There was an out of state FFL that didn't know how to handle the transfer of non NFA "others" that were being made in my state to their state. They contacted the ATF and they scooped up a number of weapons that were already sold to customers. And the ATF rule went from measuring a a weapon with a folding brace unfolded for OAL, to measuring it folded for OAL. But an adjustable non folding brace still gets measured fully extended for OAL.

I cannot wait to retire and move from this god forsaken place.

Greg Nichols
12-29-2019, 08:30 PM
It happened in my state. They contacted the ATF.
Ok so no, it didnt happen in your state. As above someone asked permission and they swooped in. They didnt randomly show up measuring people's stuff. This is just another case of "mother may I"

45Smashemflat
12-30-2019, 09:34 AM
My limited experience on this (juror a few times) is that weapons laws are add ons after an arrest. “Now that I’ve arrested you for armed robbery, let me check out these guns...”. Gee, filed the serial number off that pistol, there’s a charge for that. Hey, that’s a weird looking short shotgun, better have my ATF buddy see if we can make something stick for that.

No body is cruising around with a ruler, what would be the probable cause?

jesselp
12-30-2019, 10:28 AM
Which begs the question:

If you use a Tac-14 with a folding stock (or other grey-area weapon) in a good defensive shooting, will the local authorities make an issue of it?

Here in NY, the answer is likely yes, so I've stayed with the birdshead grip. Where you live, you may come to a different conclusion.

Greg Nichols
12-30-2019, 10:38 AM
Come on guys...….. Filter this stuff through a brain cell. Read your local laws and existing ATF regulations, then abide by them to the best of your ability. If you do something that is intentionally not kosher in your AO you deserve the result you get.

Gabriel Suarez
12-30-2019, 10:44 AM
Come on guys...….. Filter this stuff through a brain cell. Read your local laws and existing ATF regulations, then abide by them to the best of your ability. If you do something that is intentionally not kosher in your AO you deserve the result you get.


But Greg...its more fun to think the big government cock is coming for your ass and that there is nothing you can do about it. :rolleyes:

barnetmill
01-03-2020, 03:35 PM
From OP
ATF’s inquiry involves Black Aces Tactical Pro Series 5, and Pro Series 9, firearms incorporating folding stabilizing braces and smoothbore barrels of less than eighteen (18) inches. These
i am interested in obtaining a legal 18 inch barrel to experiment with tumbling 5.56 projectiles. It was my understanding that closer range accuracy for hitting was possible to maybe 100yards, but that these un-stabilized bullets would not travel very far making them safer for areas that have houses nearby.

Gabriel Suarez
01-03-2020, 06:46 PM
I am sorry Mr. Suarez, but (no pun intended) I have to issue you two demerits for profane language. I know it is your website, but (no pun intended) don't let it happen again.

Fuck it

AFSOCCRNA
01-03-2020, 07:10 PM
I am sorry Mr. Suarez, but (no pun intended) I have to issue you two demerits for profane language. I know it is your website, but (no pun intended) don't let it happen again.

Dude, WTF is up with your posts? Are you trying for humor or are you just being an ass? Either way, you are doing little to contribute here.

chad newton
01-03-2020, 07:50 PM
Fuck it
He’s all fucking butthurt... lol...

chad newton
01-03-2020, 08:00 PM
I am sorry Mr. Suarez, but (no pun intended) I have to issue you two demerits for profane language. I know it is your website, but (no pun intended) don't let it happen again.
I wonder if the “big cock” has already gotten to this guy...

barnetmill
01-03-2020, 08:17 PM
I wonder if the “big cock” has already gotten to this guy...


sorry I just could not resist, Well he is calling himself 447butthurt.

Fyrfytr998
01-03-2020, 10:11 PM
From OP
i am interested in obtaining a legal 18 inch barrel to experiment with tumbling 5.56 projectiles. It was my understanding that closer range accuracy for hitting was possible to maybe 100yards, but that these un-stabilized bullets would not travel very far making them safer for areas that have houses nearby.

Are you talking about that Franklin armory abomination?

barnetmill
01-04-2020, 06:09 AM
Are you talking about that Franklin armory abomination?

i am interested in trying the principle of a somewhat accurate tumbling bullet. I want it in legal rifle length. Be a range toy to start with. An abomination, not sure. Does it work as advertised? What is your experience with it or that of anyone you know?

Fyrfytr998
01-05-2020, 10:05 PM
To be honest, I haven't seen one shop in my state carry one, so all my opinions are based solely on the video reviews when it first came out. Also as far I have seen, only Franklin Armory is selling that type of weapon, and a 11.5" barrel is the longest it comes in, and the ATF has just recently stopped all retail sales of the weapon since it's now a new genus of classification (GCA/SBS).

So unless you know of another company selling AR style weapons with no rifling, it's a dead issue until further notice. For what they charge though, you have so many other options that won't cause you headaches.