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Gabriel Suarez
02-01-2019, 06:42 AM
I am going to make a statement. I am sure many will disagree, but whatever. Unless it is going into a Glock receiver, I have changed my mind on the validity of a carbine/smg sized weapon requiring the use of pistol magazines.

Why? Because the reliability factor is simply not there. A Glock mag in a Glock = 100% reliability.

A Glock mag in an AR-15 = I have yet to see one that is 100%. 95-99%, all day long...but that is not 100%. Unless its a range toy, for which I have no interest, a PCC/SMG should have dedicated magazines such as the Evo, UZI, or MP5...even the Colt 30 round SMG.

John_Frederick
02-01-2019, 10:13 AM
Probably mostly due to the feed angle of the Glock mags... Perfect for the Glock, not so much for an AR.

krav51
02-01-2019, 10:49 AM
How are the feed ramps of most AR Glock fed carbines configured? I only have experience with the freedom ordnance FX-9 and the feed ramp is a specific design just for this application.The round really has no place to go other than in the chamber.Im right at 3000 rounds now with zero malfunctions.I suppose it's technically not an AR though.

Gabriel Suarez
02-01-2019, 11:11 AM
Probably mostly due to the feed angle of the Glock mags... Perfect for the Glock, not so much for an AR.

My thoughts exactly...and no, I don't think those angles can be adapted. I have worked with several Glock Mag adapted weapons and none have the reliability that I would rely on. I am expecting a slew of "well...MY Glock mag whateverthehell AR carbine works fine". Good for you then...none of the various versions I have worked with are reliable.

So what is then?

Well, the bar is still set by the MP5. Few will want to spend the cash for those.
Uzi were quite reliable but they are heavy as hell compared to modern 9mm SMG.

There is the Evo of course, and we hear of an AR-like lower that accepts Mp5 magazines. Yes...MP5 mags are more costly than Glock mags. Oh well.

Brent Yamamoto
02-01-2019, 12:06 PM
I tend to agree.

SMGs and Glock PDWs shoot equally well but I've begun to think of them in somewhat different roles.

The SMG strikes me as a proactive tool. It's something for men who hunt other men, something you take with you for a specific mission. The Glock PDW shoots just as well, but for a planned assault it's good to have something more solid. It's bigger and heavier than the PDW and that additional mass is an asset in those circumstances. As such...does it really matter that the mag doesn't fit in your pistol? You go to the event with enough mags for both. Rifles use different mags from our pistols, so how are SMGs any different? Just because it's the same round as your pistol isn't that compelling to me. Sure, the same mag would be nice but only if it works with the same reliability.


The Glock PDW on the other hand is more for the unplanned event. It's smaller, lighter, fits in smaller places whether that's a drawer or a bag. More easily transported between home and place of work. Easily carried in a vehicle...the pistol that gives you just a little more capability. It's not a reactive tool, that's a job for your EDC. But the PDW isn't the thing you take to an expected fight, it's the thing you happent to have with you should an event come to you. An event that gives you the luxury of reaching for more than your EDC. Because it's an unplanned event, you don't carry so many mags with you. Mag compatibility is a potentially important factor.

Of course both the SMG and PDW can be used for home defense. And while mag compatibility is nice to have, it's just not that big a deal IMO.

Gabriel Suarez
02-01-2019, 12:27 PM
This is far more interesting to me, and desirable than any "Takes Glock Mags" AR.

57329

EDELWEISS
02-01-2019, 03:36 PM
For me the real virtue of Glock mags is that they a new, not thirty years old as in UZI and MP5 mags. What I don't like about the Glock "SMGs" is the angle they are required to be inserted into the magwell. Maybe that's me being me again; but Ive got too much time on real SMGs to ever fully embrace the Glock mag ARs et'al, that being said it didn't stop me from putting together a few based PCCs, and yes when I did my part they ran/run fine.

As for reliable Glock mag guns, Im told the Kriss Vectors are pretty good; but never having run them, Ill defer to the experiences of others.

STILL if theres a ready supply of milspec NEW mags for the MP5 or UZI or Sterling, or Vz61, Hell even Thompson or PPSh, then yes I prefer those--always have. It was the necessity of using 50 year old PPs43 mags that kept me from embracing a 762x25 AR. So before I rush to buy a QC10 AR lower that uses MP5 mags, I want a source for NEW MP5 mags.

Gabriel Suarez
02-01-2019, 03:44 PM
No shits to give on my end what you buy or do not buy...since I don't sell DIY things you can assemble in your spare time, nor Circle 10 ARs. Simply making an observation on Glock Mag ARs and their lack of reliability in my experience.

DutchV
02-01-2019, 04:06 PM
For me the real virtue of Glock mags is that they a new, not thirty years old as in UZI and MP5 mags. What I don't like about the Glock "SMGs" is the angle they are required to be inserted into the magwell. Maybe that's me being me again; but Ive got too much time on real SMGs to ever fully embrace the Glock mag ARs et'al, that being said it didn't stop me from putting together a few based PCCs, and yes when I did my part they ran/run fine.

As for reliable Glock mag guns, Im told the Kriss Vectors are pretty good; but never having run them, Ill defer to the experiences of others.

STILL if theres a ready supply of milspec NEW mags for the MP5 or UZI or Sterling, or Vz61, Hell even Thompson or PPSh, then yes I prefer those--always have. It was the necessity of using 50 year old PPs43 mags that kept me from embracing a 762x25 AR. So before I rush to buy a QC10 AR lower that uses MP5 mags, I want a source for NEW MP5 mags.

Colt-pattern mags are available new. How about a modernized DOE build?

DogDoc
02-01-2019, 04:47 PM
Iím pretty jazzed about the Magpul mags for the Evo. Thatíll likely push me over the edge toward that platform.

CZ Man
02-01-2019, 11:23 PM
Anyone have any experience or thoughts on Ruger's new 9mm Carbine that has the Glock magazine adaptor? Does it have the same issues as Glock Mag AR's ?

C.J. Singleton
02-02-2019, 04:22 AM
Anyone have any experience or thoughts on Ruger's new 9mm Carbine that has the Glock magazine adaptor? Does it have the same issues as Glock Mag AR's ?From what I've seen so far they run well just remember it's a ruger.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

C.J. Singleton
02-02-2019, 04:26 AM
Colt-pattern mags are available new. How about a modernized DOE build?I tried a build using colt mags (with a kac industries adapter block) and I could not get it to run I ended up using a dedicated glock mag lower and after switching to a springco red spring it ended up running really well I was going to keep it but I needed money for glass for my PRS rifle when I got a good offer on the PCC I let it go.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

EDELWEISS
02-02-2019, 07:19 AM
Colt-pattern mags are available new. How about a modernized DOE build?

I have a DOE and a "full size" Colt build. Both are on full size AR lowers and use magwell inserts. I used to argue here about the angled entry of Glock mags in a SMG feeling weird but everyone liked the dual use capability. I gave in because of the availability issue.

Gabriel Suarez
02-02-2019, 08:00 AM
Anyone have any experience or thoughts on Ruger's new 9mm Carbine that has the Glock magazine adaptor? Does it have the same issues as Glock Mag AR's ?

LOL...its a Ruger...what more

EDELWEISS
02-02-2019, 08:12 AM
LOL...its a Ruger...what more

EXACTLY If Ruger had released it 10 years ago, it might have been a real force in the PCC world. Today Ruger would have been better to make it in 10mm; but typical of Ruger they missed the idea completely.

Yes its nice that it breaks down and still retains the PC look for those that think that matters. It will put the tombstone on the already dead Keltec; but in the end ….its a Ruger and Hell they even managed to F UP their ARs

Gabriel Suarez
02-02-2019, 08:20 AM
The only thing Ruger makes well, and would consider owning, and do is the 10-22 series. My opinion.

Badger
02-02-2019, 02:35 PM
The only thing Ruger makes well, and would consider owning, and do is the 10-22 series. My opinion.

I’ve also had pretty good luck with their .22 pistols such as the MKIV I shoot suppressed. I don’t care much for anything else they make.

EDELWEISS
02-02-2019, 03:42 PM
Can we get back to the Glock magazine issue.... For instance who has had trouble with Glock mags in another system? Were they original GLOCK mags? What were the specific problems? Was it one particular mag or every mag tested every time? How did the mag fail? How did you determine it was the mag/weapon feed angle?

Ive had problems with dry ARs. Ive had trouble with Korean and Scherer mags. Just wondering what other problems that are being seen.

Badger
02-02-2019, 04:42 PM
Can we get back to the Glock magazine issue.... For instance who has had trouble with Glock mags in another system? Were they original GLOCK mags? What were the specific problems? Was it one particular mag or every mag tested every time? How did the mag fail? How did you determine it was the mag/weapon feed angle?

Ive had problems with dry ARs. Ive had trouble with Korean and Scherer mags. Just wondering what other problems that are being seen.

I guess I don’t get it. Why buy something cobblefucked up around a magazine meant for someone else’s pistol? You literally have 4652 different weapons and a whole barn full of support gear and you are worried about some esoteric bullshit about grip angles and what not. (Lol) The next time I’m back east, we are hanging out and YOU are buying the food, booze and ammo.

EDELWEISS
02-02-2019, 05:08 PM
I guess I don’t get it. Why buy something cobblefucked up around a magazine meant for someone else’s pistol? You literally have 4652 different weapons and a whole barn full of support gear and you are worried about some esoteric bullshit about grip angles and what not. (Lol) The next time I’m back east, we are hanging out and YOU are buying the food, booze and ammo.

Grip angles translate to mag change speed. On a SMG or rifle for that matter a "straight in" mag is faster, at least for me. I can (have) overcome the "odd" angle of the Glock mag; but its still odd. Im sure Gabe has a reason for his pronouncement of Glock mags in other than Glocks. Hes very good about such things, and as for me well Ive pointed out my problems with non original mags and of course guns with improper maintenance.

We can talk about who's buying after the range....

Badger
02-02-2019, 05:33 PM
I think people focus too much on how fast they can change a magazine. The fraction of a second canít make that much of a difference...and, if people think it does, they should probably work on becoming better shots.

Also, why ďovercomeĒ the made up problem at all? Buy a better system.

Dorkface
02-02-2019, 05:45 PM
DOES IT TAKE GLOCK MAGS?!?!?

Its become a gun community meme in recent years. Glock mags are great so people think they should be great in everything even though its not always true. It might also appeal to those whom already have a bunch and don't want to buy more of another. With Magpul starting to make accessories for some of the SMGs it will be interesting to see if they start making mags for them too.

Greg Nichols
02-02-2019, 05:49 PM
Ya, the grip angle and angled mag issue is solving a training issue you're trying to fix with equipment..... again.. and as addressed so many times I can hardly stand it if you're making a speed reload, especially with a long gun your tactics suck.

Gabriel Suarez
02-02-2019, 07:11 PM
GRIP ANGLES? :tired:

MAG CHANGE SPEED? :tired::tired:

I guess its true...most people don't read a god damn thing I write do they...or they do and think I am totally full of shit. :tired::tired::tired:

Gabriel Suarez
02-02-2019, 07:12 PM
if you're making a speed reload, especially with a long gun

....you have no clue about CQB or gunfighting and are playing gun games....

There finished it.

Gabriel Suarez
02-02-2019, 07:15 PM
I guess I donít get it. .

Neither do I...but apparently I am so out-of-touch and out-of-date that I must have missed how important grip angles and mag change speed is.

John_Frederick
02-02-2019, 07:27 PM
Neither do I...but apparently I am so out-of-touch and out-of-date that I must have missed how important grip angles and mag change speed is.Please don't forget "Drop Free Mags"... It's a f#*king obsession with so many people I bet you could retire just by selling 16oz lead mag bases.

sfc
02-03-2019, 01:37 AM
I find this pretty interesting...

57337

Gabriel Suarez
02-03-2019, 06:59 AM
YUP...B&T. Uses SMG and not Glock Mags. I would take that over a Glock-Magged-AR, and I hope the mags DON"T drop free.


I find this pretty interesting...

57337

EDELWEISS
02-03-2019, 07:01 AM
Guys I don't think youre full of shit. Its not an all or nothing for me and yes I have read what you say. As for the angle issue it is or was real for me and I suspect for others who had as much time on SMGs as I do. Yes training overcame the issue; but it was still an issue.

Although I am a bit amused how I brought up the mag angle issue to agree with your assessment of Glock ARs.

Gabriel Suarez
02-03-2019, 07:40 AM
Edelweiss...you wouldn't buy one from me anyway.

I am fast getting to the point where I don't care. I think ARs designed to use Glock mags are stupid, and as one gent mentioned, a cobblefucked mess of a compromise for cheap f*cks that think they are John Wick and object to the price of legit SMG magazines.

That you disagree doesn't change my opinion.

Gabriel Suarez
02-03-2019, 07:42 AM
One more before my ZF buton is pressed.

Anyone who thinks speed loading an SMG is a good tactic does not know a damn thing about CQB or the application of these weapons.

Papa
02-03-2019, 07:46 AM
DOES IT TAKE GLOCK MAGS?!?!?

Its become a gun community meme in recent years. Glock mags are great so people think they should be great in everything even though its not always true. It might also appeal to those whom already have a bunch and don't want to buy more of another. With Magpul starting to make accessories for some of the SMGs it will be interesting to see if they start making mags for them too.

Here's the real issue. We want mags that are a universal fit in everything we own. Personally I think Glock mags are a PITA, but they don't rust and they work.
In Glocks.
The Holy Grail is a 100 % reliable magazine compatible in striker, TDA and PCC. OK, SMG, too.

We can come close with minimal mods to, say, the 92 and 226 mags, that can be made to work in a number of platforms.

But not all.

So take a deep breath, pull out the billfold, and lay down the plastic for the guns and mags that fit your needs.

Now clean up the rec room. Papa wants to take a nap.

seeker_two
02-03-2019, 08:24 AM
The only thing Ruger makes well, and would consider owning, and do is the 10-22 series. My opinion.Isn't the PCC an upsized 10-22? What makes it less robust and reliable?

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Gabriel Suarez
02-03-2019, 08:26 AM
Isn't the PCC an upsized 10-22? What makes it less robust and reliable?

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Nothing at all man...its a great rifle, fully the equal of a Heckler & Kock MP5. You should get one right away.
Even better if it can be modified to take drop-free Glock mags.

45Smashemflat
02-03-2019, 03:35 PM
I'll stick with my Uzi.

Papa
02-03-2019, 03:58 PM
57342

Not looking to derail, but I handled one of these today (not this gun), used, asking $899. with what looks like a Magpul fore end and two polymer (junk) mags. Lower is Colt, restricted LE marking and it looks like a true 9mm, not a conversion, or at least it's firmly fitted to the lower. Upper has the A1 rear sight.

I know nothing of Colt 9mm ARs. If I'm insane for considering this, please intervene. If not, tell me what to look for, what to avoid, and whether the juice is worth the squeeze. (I already have a G17 PDW.)

Mods, kick me into another thread as appropriate.

seeker_two
02-03-2019, 05:31 PM
Nothing at all man...its a great rifle, fully the equal of a Heckler & Kock MP5. You should get one right away.
Even better if it can be modified to take drop-free Glock mags.I'd like to find one that takes P95 mags, but I guess I'll make do.....besides, I'm not too keen on a rifle that's already broken in half by the factory.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

John_Frederick
02-03-2019, 05:35 PM
Somebody school this dummy...
If an PCC/SMG is being designed from the ground up, why not have the mags insert through the grip?
Then it could use Glock mags without issue. And have a smaller footprint.
Uzi did it, but most other SMG's put the magwell in front of the trigger, even with a clean slate design. What obvious reason am I missing here?

EDELWEISS
02-03-2019, 06:06 PM
Somebody school this dummy...
If an PCC/SMG is being designed from the ground up, why not have the mags insert through the grip?
Then it could use Glock mags without issue. And have a smaller footprint.
Uzi did it, but most other SMG's put the magwell in front of the trigger, even with a clean slate design. What obvious reason am I missing here?

The "Mag in the Grip" started with Cz and was adopted by Uzi and maybe a few others (Ingram M10, etc); but there is, or rather was an understanding that SMGs were full size fighting weapons and compactness wasn't the only mission requirement. Remember the Thompson weighed 10+ pounds and the Uzi isn't much lighter. The HK MP5 and the Sterling were perhaps the best of the Cold War SMGs, and they have pretty much faded as first choice combat guns. As missions changed in the post Cold War, Assault rifles replaced Battle rifles, and the role of SMGs diminished; its still there but much less so especially with the advent of short and shorter barreled Assault rifles. PDWs blurred the roles even more. The HK MP7 has a mag in the grip and the FN P90 has it on the top, those are the most prevalent PDWs (the only if we stick with the strict definition of specialized ammo capable of defeating body armor).

So can a SMG be designed from the ground up with the mag in the grip, sure. Why Glock hasn't done it is a question for Glock; but I suspect its purely economics--because theres never been a call for it. Glock is less interested in civilian sales, the real money is in government sales, (neither is/was HK for that matter) so don't expect a Glock Carbine anytime soon.

The use of Glock mags by other manufactures in new guns may also be because the Glock magazine is a proven and yes popular mag; not having to design a magazine is one step closer to making it to the market. One of the (many) reasons the Bren 10 failed was because of magazine production issues.

Greg Nichols
02-03-2019, 06:55 PM
57342

Not looking to derail, but I handled one of these today (not this gun), used, asking $899. with what looks like a Magpul fore end and two polymer (junk) mags. Lower is Colt, restricted LE marking and it looks like a true 9mm, not a conversion, or at least it's firmly fitted to the lower. Upper has the A1 rear sight.

I know nothing of Colt 9mm ARs. If I'm insane for considering this, please intervene. If not, tell me what to look for, what to avoid, and whether the juice is worth the squeeze. (I already have a G17 PDW.)

Mods, kick me into another thread as appropriate.

No those are factory m4 guards without the heat shield. They made them bigger to remove the aluminum heat shields

Greg Nichols
02-03-2019, 07:01 PM
Somebody school this dummy...
If an PCC/SMG is being designed from the ground up, why not have the mags insert through the grip?
Then it could use Glock mags without issue. And have a smaller footprint.
Uzi did it, but most other SMG's put the magwell in front of the trigger, even with a clean slate design. What obvious reason am I missing here?

The MP7 does accept mags in the grip and its opperational.

John_Frederick
02-03-2019, 07:29 PM
The MP7 does accept mags in the grip and its opperational. And its not a glock mag world so let go of that particular argument is a non starter. Do you have an argument or whatI was merely looking for information regarding magwells in SMG's for my own education... If I was married to Glock Mags I would not have built this Scorpion EVO.
All I want is for the Scorpion Pmags to start shipping. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190204/4facffa913514499f18da9f9b1ff80e6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190204/f1235db800b4ea33cef85baa25023e82.jpg

Gabriel Suarez
02-03-2019, 07:33 PM
No...he does not Greg.

John...nice Evo

jlwilliams
02-04-2019, 03:46 PM
The MP7 does accept mags in the grip and its opperational.

Man, I sooooo wish they sold a semi auto sbr MP7 here in America. And while I'm wishing for unicorn tears, I'd like one in 9mm.

Badger
02-04-2019, 05:18 PM
I’m going to design a pcc with a bumpfire arm brace/sling stock hybrid that also takes Glock magazines. Any interest?

EDELWEISS
02-04-2019, 05:30 PM
I talked to a MagPul rep today at the Harrisburg show. He had a EVO with the MagPul stock and MagPul mag on display---he says 2 months or less eta on the mags.....

Badger
02-04-2019, 08:06 PM
I talked to a MagPul rep today at the Harrisburg show. He had a EVO with the MagPul stock and MagPul mag on display---he says 2 months or less eta on the mags.....

That’s good to hear. I doubt they will do it but I’d like them to make a 20 rounder as well.

EDELWEISS
02-05-2019, 05:28 AM
That’s good to hear. I doubt they will do it but I’d like them to make a 20 rounder as well.

We talked about that too, I got a "We'll seeeee"

EDELWEISS
02-05-2019, 05:41 AM
On another note I see that B&T is making a "NEW B&T APC-9 Pro. It offers a new lower, with an interchangeable M4 style grip which is interchangeable with any AR15 grip. The APC PRO also accepts "Glock lower" (APC9-G) that uses Glock mags. Its a post '86 NFA item here in the US, so they aren't courting the civilian market.