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View Full Version : WHAT IS RIGHT - WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS ONE



Gabriel Suarez
01-26-2019, 07:29 AM
Lets see if we are tracking - this is the Evo Bullpup. List five things that are good and five things that are bad.

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Gabriel Suarez
01-26-2019, 07:30 AM
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LawDog
01-26-2019, 09:24 AM
Bad:
Bigger
Heavier
Long barrel that adds no ballistic advantage
Shorter rail at 12:00 offers fewer mounting options than a normal pistol
Virtually nowhere for a forward hand to rest
Mag release is not protected by trigger guard
Must be SBRed to use a shorter barrel
More difficult to access internals, in the event of a complicated malfunction
(I know that's more than five)

Good:
When SBRed from a pistol, it makes a shorter package when combined with a can
Better cheek weld (probably)
They built in a brass deflector
(I ran out at three)

Why, why, why would they angle the handguards back so steeply, depriving the gun of an additional 4-5" of 12:00 rail space?

John_Frederick
01-26-2019, 09:36 AM
I'll give it a go...

CZ agreed to this project only if it was designed to work with the stock OEM carbine parts, so from the get-go it was a compromised design.

Pluses:
1. Very short OAL without any NFA restrictions
2. Maximum velocity attainable from 9mm
3. Will look OperatorAsF*#k on Instagram
4. Will look OperatorAsF*#k on Facebook
5. Will look OperstorAsF*#k on [insert gun forum]

Minuses:

1. Use of OEM carbine foreend = bullpup handguard is ridiculously short, sacrificing hand space and accessory space.
2. Heavier than the Carbine or the braced pistol
3. Use of OEM grip leaves very little space between the grip and the magazine... Reloading may be a challenge.
4. OAL far exceeds a folded braced pistol
5. Empties to the face from the left shoulder

John_Frederick
01-26-2019, 09:42 AM
Why, why, why would they angle the handguards back so steeply, depriving the gun of an additional 4-5" of 12:00 rail space?

This whole project was done by Manticore Arms with CZ's approval, but that approval came with a big restriction: the upgrade kit had to use the existing OEM Carbine parts, hence the resulting crappy hanguard. It's fine on the carbine, but shit on the bullpup.

Nabalfodrows
01-26-2019, 10:07 AM
WHAT PURPOSE DOES IT SERVE?

Waste of time. Large, complicated, unwieldy. $850 for the rifle, $400 for the chassis, and another $200 for the tax man (b/c 16" barrel is stupid, stupid, stupid). All for a mostly stock gun. I see nothing good about this. I look at it and see one of those trashy Turk bullpup shotguns.

Pistol caliber carbines and subguns need to die already IMO. They're anemic. If people want a bullpup subgun so desperately, they should just SBR a 300BLK X95.

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I don't have a problem slipping a 10" AR into my gym bag. If a need a 9mm subgun (which I don't see myself ever needing), I'll just throw a folding Endo on one of my RMR'd Glocks.

Brent Yamamoto
01-26-2019, 10:16 AM
Much as I like bullpups, I see no advantage here. Anything this bulky might as well be in a rifle caliber.

A very svelte bullpup, as in cleaner and trimmer than an AUG, SBR’d, and in a heavier caliber to take advantage of the barrel length (357 Sig, 10mm, maybe even 40)...maybe I would be interested then.

Nabalfodrows
01-26-2019, 10:22 AM
Much as I like bullpups, I see no advantage here. Anything this bulky might as well be in a rifle caliber.

Boom.

Brent Yamamoto
01-26-2019, 10:36 AM
I still think there is a role for the SMG. But it needs to be smaller, lighter, and handier than a rifle.

The stocked pistol like the Glock PDW will do anything an SMG will do when it comes to shooting. But a small SMG still has some advantages. But this bullpup offers none of them.

mike135
01-26-2019, 11:15 AM
I see very little of interest in that configuration.

These, on the other hand, are more worthy of discussion in my humble opinion. The short one is 20" overall with an integral suppressor, and still has an 8" barrel:

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXhtKQwj1G0

psalms23dad
01-26-2019, 11:27 AM
My assumptions.

The bad.
No real place for the support hand.
Ejection port would be an issue with left handed shooters unless I'm missing something.
Rail might limit certain optics and backup sight combinations due to shortness.
Height over bore is excessive, which is interesting for a CQB weapon.
Mounting a weapon light might be an issue as would activating it.


The good.
Shorter but not nfa.

Generally I don't like bulpups so I don't see any other good qualities. Bullpups just seem like you're trading 1 issue for several others.

Brent Yamamoto
01-26-2019, 12:06 PM
Bullpups just seem like you're trading 1 issue for several others.

That depends. The shortcomings of individual rifles are entirely due to their design and execution. The bullpup concept is sound and with the right attributes I believe they can be the perfect rifle.

For example, there is no reason a bullpup must have a shitty trigger. That’s an example of “common knowledge” that just isn’t so. The DESIGN of the trigger in a given rifle system may make it challenging, but there are examples of bullpup triggers that are the equal to excellent AR triggers.

Brass to the face is not hard to overcome. To the credit of the CZ/Manticore design, they apprar to have addressed at least this issue (look closely at the shield over and behind the ejection port).

The AUG is an AK-simple design. It’s lacking in its stock configuration, but the enhancements that Gabe brought to the market made it damn near the perfect assualt rifle. Too bad AUG owners didn’t buy in; Gabe addressed about every shortcoming besides the trigger.

The biggest problem with bullpups is that they are different. Fudds don’t like crazy spaceguns. Many others, understandably so, don’t want to invest in platforms that aren’t standard and don’t have the market support of more common systems. The trigger pack of an AUG or an FS2000 could be built to be incredibly crisp, but it’s expensive.

The handling characteristics of a good bullpup in many ways make it the perfect fighting rifle. A bullpup in 223, 300, 6.5 Grendel...these make awesome sense from a fighting perspective. Though less so from a manufacturing and sales perspective.

A bullpup in 9mm on the other hand...this makes little sense to me unless it was in a MUCH smaller, sleeker package.

Gabriel Suarez
01-26-2019, 12:27 PM
I am surprised nobody mentioned the height over bore. On an AR its about 2.5-3". On this one? What like 4" +? The guys that say such a thing is not important are fools.

mike135
01-26-2019, 01:07 PM
I am surprised nobody mentioned the height over bore. On an AR its about 2.5-3". On this one? What like 4" +? The guys that say such a thing is not important are fools.

psalms23dad caught it. :smile:

Like another poster said, it looks like being forced to work within the constraints they were given forced some compromises. I believe this was developed to be offered as an OEM product.

The prototype Sven is holding in the picture I posted looks like it would have more potential--looks like they might have made their own upper...? Looks like the height over bore could be significantly improved.

John_Frederick
01-26-2019, 02:05 PM
I believe this was developed to be offered as an OEM product.


As I understand, it will first be a conversion kit for the carbine, sold by Manticore Arms... and then potentially in the future CZ will offer the Bullpup straight from the factory.
But seeing how long its taken them to produce the Micro Scorpion I wouldn't hold my breath.

Papa
01-26-2019, 07:10 PM
I am surprised nobody mentioned the height over bore. On an AR its about 2.5-3". On this one? What like 4" +? The guys that say such a thing is not important are fools.

Yeah, looks like a cruise ship. Whether you call it vertical or mechanical offset or whatever, it's the difference between an eyeball and a collar button up close.

psalms23dad
01-26-2019, 07:13 PM
Ok I watched the vid that was posted.
I don't know how you could shoot this left handed.
Ejection port and brass marked in red.
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Also seems that with much shooting he runs the risk of getting cooked sausage fingers.
The charging handle is directly above the shooting hand. Maybe not a big deal but it might be kinda clunky to run in that regard unless it could be moved to the left side.

Brent, I'll consider your thoughts on bullpups, thanks for sharing. I'm just not sure what issues this bullpup has solved over the standard configuration. It's obvious it's created issues. I realize that's a general comment and may not apply to all bullpups.

Dorkface
01-26-2019, 07:37 PM
Its like they took all the bad parts of bullpups and put them all in one gun...

3corners
01-27-2019, 12:28 AM
Full disclosure up front - I hate bullpups! I went through the adoption fiasco of the SA80 back in the '80s.

The only advantage I see is for a rifle getting a full length barrel in a shorter package, thats it IMO. Ergonomics (for me at least) are better with the magazine in or in front of the pistol grip.

For an SMG of pistol calibre carbine I see no advantage in bullpupping it and in this variant it appears huge for what it does.

The big disadvantages have already been mentioned - fore-hand positioning and bore offset.

Johnny C!
01-27-2019, 06:12 AM
My biggest issue with this primarily is
that it requires an entirely different manual
of arms. Having spent most of my adult
years with the AR platform, from which
I will not deviate from at this point in my
life.

And it's balance point is way aft.
See reference above.

Plus, a lot of other things, already
mentioned. What is there to like
about it?

John

Popshot
01-30-2019, 03:09 PM
Good:
Short package for 16" barrelled carbine, with no NFA issues.

Bad:
Very bulky housing, which is likely heavier than needed for the platform and the extremely short hand guard makes it look unbalanced. It looks like a school bus mounted on a motorcycle.

The housing appears to crowd the pistol grip and magazine into virtually the same space, likely to be worse with longer magazines. Actually, it's not just the proximity, but the orientation of the firing grip and the reloading grip puts both hands in conflicting angles and may feel awkward. This would not be a problem with an AUG, nor with the Scorpion in its original design.