LESSONS LEARNED FROM THE DAY

[Gabriel Suarez]

This last Thanksgiving my son and I took a physical test of sorts. Not quite what the bush hippies would call a "hike", it was more of a hard ruck march. We covered approximately 20 ish miles on some trail and some open ground. Big elevation changes as well as everything from a pine forest to a rock strewn volcanic wasteland.

We weren't planing on any overnights, but part of the event is carrying enough that you could. We are not of the titanium, pharoe-cleats type culture that travels as light as they can with titanium frames covered by toilet paper. We run solid packs, dress in low visibility clothing and carry weapons. If we chance upon someone and they are offended, well...they can f*ck off.

My son had his, which is a 5.11 day pack he favors and I ran a Kifaru light pack whose name escapes me. Neither of us had hip belts and ran just the shoulder straps.

Learning point was that the hip belts are a good addition. Our traps were smoked that night and the next day. That brings up the point of weapons carry with a waist/hip belt. We both have been carrying medium size "fanny packs" in the weeds...not because concealment is important but because protecting the pistol from the elements is easier in one. In the field I have always favored a flap holster...this is a good equivalent of that.

Moreover, while one may be well tempted to remove a battle belt and LBE in camp, the fanny pack stays with you easily. In it we have a pistol, a couple of pistol mags and a few other "get home" items. Rifle magazines are singles on the belt. Between a twenty round mag in the rifle and second thirty round on the belt, that will be enough. There are more in the ruck should we need them. But back to the fanny pack. It has been a great kit and I will still use it on short strolls in the woods with the Shield Maiden and the dog, it is not workable or comfortable with a waist belt on the ruck.

And understand...this was a training run. We have some long treks planned upwards of fifty miles through similar terrain and with self imposed time limits...so.

I played around with traditional chest rigs and most are too big, have too much room which will invariably get filled, or don't give a proper place for a pistol to be carried. They may be great for a "bail out of the van...hit the house and run back into the van", or a day at some rifle course...but rucking twenty miles under time limit...not so much.

I also played with chest mounted holsters such as those Alaskan rigs and Tanker holsters. None protect the weapon from the elements sufficiently and/or are so clumsily placed that it would look like you were walking around with your - well...never mind.

Last item to try was a Hill People Recon Rig. No...I don't sell them or anything like that, but I think it is the best answer thusfar and plan to run it in the weeds very soon.

Another Learning Point is have redundant navigation systems. We had maps (more on that in a moment), compass, and Garmin wrist GPS as back up and as verification of our calculations.

All went well...but the map (one from the Forest Service) had the wrong Longitude Numbers. We took a bearing, found where we were, planned a subsequent route and then verified with the Garmins. The map said 111.560.XXX. My Garmin said it was 112.560.XXX. I had my son check his and verified it...the map was wrong. Now imagine calling on the Satphone for help and giving them the 111 number!!

So having redundant systems is of a huge importance as well as having a way to verify those systems.

[Ryan Taylor]

Quite a good ruck. Question on the maps, what type were they? I have only used .mil types where all the grid squares represent 1k and you can use typically an 8 or 10 digit grid to determine location.

Using a pack with a frame and hip strap is money. If you let the weight sight more or less in the middle ( low enough so it doesnt push your face towards the ground) I find it will help me stand more upright and pushes the weight into my hips, pushing me forward a bit. Also use the chest strap.

20 miles is a hella good march. Seriously, good on you. What do you think your weight was?

With an accurate map and a good lensatic compass, you can shoot azymuths and get unlost about 95% of the time without travelling from where youre at. Key word being 'accurate' map. And 'most of the time', lol.

[Marco Innocenti]

As someone who is old enough to have worn a “tactical weapons waist pack” for real, out in public and on a daily basis long ago, this thread makes me smile. The Taipan, his crew, and this black ship Warrior Talk, sailing the seas of truth and experience.

There is a place for “old kit and old tactics,” as long as they are looked at and worked from the realistic, modern perspective. I’ve also run a “ballistic belly bag” with a light overnight pack many times, as it keeps those essential items ready while on the move as well as on the body when in “campsite clothes. (Not to be confused with Gordon Lightfoot’s “Saturday Clothes.” Which for me is a well-broken in pair of Diamond Gusset jeans, a comfy sweatshirt, and my G43 and spare mag AIWB. Plus Benchmade and small Felix light.)

Nowadays, with a very curious/wee bit dangerous 5 y/o and a 17 y/o in the house, when it gets put away for the night my EDC RMR G19 goes in the vintage Blackhawk fanny pack (modded with a kydex holster inside that can be dismounted and run AIWB on its own) with a spare 17 magazine, flashlight, pair of cuffs, and an ASP Key Defender OC spray with an ASP lighted cuff key, house key and spare truck key. All goes in the quick-access box that I can work in the dark, but the kids cannot get into. (Aforementioned G43 on me until in the rack. Then it goes in same box.) I doubt I will ever bug-out buck-nekkid in my truck with only my family and the Blackhawk bag to my name. But a guy can dream.


And for the curious, back in the day I actually wore one of the maroon Galco gun bags on the OUTSIDE of a black M-65 Field Coat... With my issued Sig P226 and spare mag in that Galco neoprene sleeve-holster.

Ahh. The 90’s...

Somewhere I have a picture of me with it outside of that M-65, INSIDE Disneyland mugging with Captain Hook. (That’s how security conscious they used to be.) And another standing next to my overtime ‘Vette on the drive down Hwy 1.

Have to find those pics and post them. More roasting potential than that bird carcass we are all still picking at!

[Greg Nichols]

My son had his, which is a 5.11 day pack he favors and I ran a Kifaru light pack whose name escapes me. Neither of us had hip belts and ran just the shoulder straps.

Learning point was that the hip belts are a good addition. Our traps were smoked that night and the next day. That brings up the point of weapons carry with a waist/hip belt. We both have been carrying medium size "fanny packs" in the weeds...not because concealment is important but because protecting the pistol from the elements is easier in one. In the field I have always favored a flap holster...this is a good equivalent of that.

This is why I only ruck without the hip belt for exercise or a short romp (10-12 miles), and on a single overnight I try to keep the packs total weight under 45#. Fanny packs can still be comfortably worn with the pack but you need to let it low-ride the center in the front.

Moreover, while one may be well tempted to remove a battle belt and LBE in camp, the fanny pack stays with you easily. In it we have a pistol, a couple of pistol mags and a few other "get home" items. Rifle magazines are singles on the belt. Between a twenty round mag in the rifle and second thirty round on the belt, that will be enough. There are more in the ruck should we need them. But back to the fanny pack. It has been a great kit and I will still use it on short strolls in the woods with the Shield Maiden and the dog, it is not workable or comfortable with a waist belt on the ruck.

One nice addition is a hydration carrier that has it's own straps and storage. you can drop the ruck and put it on with all the required items for field safety and E&E. Something like this: https://tacticalgear.com/tg-hydration-pack-coyote

And understand...this was a training run. We have some long treks planned upwards of fifty miles through similar terrain and with self imposed time limits...so.

I played around with traditional chest rigs and most are too big, have too much room which will invariably get filled, or don't give a proper place for a pistol to be carried. They may be great for a "bail out of the van...hit the house and run back into the van", or a day at some rifle course...but rucking twenty miles under time limit...not so much.

I also played with chest mounted holsters such as those Alaskan rigs and Tanker holsters. None protect the weapon from the elements sufficiently and/or are so clumsily placed that it would look like you were walking around with your - well...never mind.

Last item to try was a Hill People Recon Rig. No...I don't sell them or anything like that, but I think it is the best answer thusfar and plan to run it in the weeds very soon.

My favorite way to run support gear with a ruck is with a belt/suspender set-up. you just unbuckle the belt when you put the ruck on and let it hang from the suspenders or use a kovach clip on the belt to give you a couple of extra inches If I were going to run a chest rig, for the kind of hike you're talking about Id do something like this: https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&biw=1063&bih=626&tbm=shop&ei=5QX8W7fmBOaV0gKE5ZnQDQ&q=HSGI+Light+chest+rig&oq=HSGI+Light+chest+rig&gs_l=psy-ab.3...53299.59783.0.60021.14.14.0.0.0.0.424.2420. 0j7j0j2j1.10.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..4.3.994...0j0i13k1j33i10k1.0.AZ_VrgwK_A0#spd=2 475502471551602394&spf=1543243298366 and just drop one of the mag pouches for a double rifle mag pouch with a flap cover to use as a pistol holster.

Another Learning Point is have redundant navigation systems. We had maps (more on that in a moment), compass, and Garmin wrist GPS as back up and as verification of our calculations.

All went well...but the map (one from the Forest Service) had the wrong Longitude Numbers. We took a bearing, found where we were, planned a subsequent route and then verified with the Garmins. The map said 111.560.XXX. My Garmin said it was 112.560.XXX. I had my son check his and verified it...the map was wrong. Now imagine calling on the Satphone for help and giving them the 111 number!!

One thing to note is that civilian GPS has a 100M +/- built in for "national security" so the map is probably correct. Also don't forget to do the math on the declination between True North and Magnetic North. That should be in the key on the map and is different depending on where you are in the world.

So having redundant systems is of a huge importance as well as having a way to verify those systems.

Just a few thoughts/ideas.

[Gabriel Suarez]

The packs were about 35 before adding the nalgenes...three each. I like nalgenes here as you can resupply if needed from natural water sources...suitably processed.

There is some brush movement so the secured carry concept is forefront in my mind. I recall Chambers always favored flap pouches because of this.

100m? I though it was much less than that. The GPS on the Garmin was drastically off...not even the same neighborhood as the map. Several miles maybe. I can only think it was a typo and nobody pointed it out. Source was US forest service circa 1980.

[Gabriel Suarez]

On,declination...since most of our back country work is here in AZ, this is a given.

[Gabriel Suarez]

On,declination...since most of our back country work is here in AZ, this is a given.

Here is an example of water. Running...either from melt or a spring. Id boil or treat it but it is usually available.

56819

Some of the terrain

56820

[LawDog]

The HPG Kit Bags are great for working with a pack. I've got two of them, set up slightly different.

I took one of their original kit bags and mated it up with a carrier for a hydration bladder on the back. I shortened it a few inches, to work with a 1.5L bladder. That one is usually my running rig. I can do trail runs, sprints, or whatever. The gun doesn't rattle around too much; there is an extra pocket for phone, wallet, and keys; and I've got water. The back has MOLLE for more stuff, but I've never used it. I'd actually rather it be smooth, and less militant in appearance.

The second one is a smaller kit bag, set up with just the mesh back. It mates well with a backpack and can also be used for short runs that don't require water. I wore that one on Thanksgiving when the extended family went out for a 5K Turkey Trot. I got to smile knowingly at my wife when my sister-in-law (who is pretty tuned in to guns) asked what it was. My wife thinks it is terribly obvious that the Kit Bag contains a gun. My retort has been that it is only obvious to people who think in terms of guns, and those people won't care; the hoplophobic soccer moms won't have a clue that it contains a gun. Her sister's failure to immediately recognize it as a gun was good proof that the Kit Bag is still moderately discrete. Particularly when running, people wear such weird gear these days that it just blends in.

I likewise tried the tanker holsters, and rejected them. I tried a drop-leg rig, and it chafed like sharkskin underwear.

20 miles in one day is a good trek. That's the way to test your gear (and yourself).

[Greg Nichols]

The packs were about 35 before adding the nalgenes...three each. I like nalgenes here as you can resupply if needed from natural water sources...suitably processed.

There is some brush movement so the secured carry concept is forefront in my mind. I recall Chambers always favored flap pouches because of this.

100m? I though it was much less than that. The GPS on the Garmin was drastically off...not even the same neighborhood as the map. Several miles maybe. I can only think it was a typo and nobody pointed it out. Source was US forest service circa 1980.

you're pretty close to some military training areas up there so Garmin may be really skewed for that reason. next time I'm up we can run out and check it if you want. I can easily do that from the trail head, take me about 5 mins.

[Gabriel Suarez]

Yes...the not-so-secret areas that bear a resemblance to Astan...or not...;)

[Greg Nichols]

The packs were about 35 before adding the nalgenes...three each. I like nalgenes here as you can resupply if needed from natural water sources...suitably processed.

That's a good weight

There is some brush movement so the secured carry concept is forefront in my mind. I recall Chambers always favored flap pouches because of this.

Yep, and dummy cord things of value.
100m? I though it was much less than that. The GPS on the Garmin was drastically off...not even the same neighborhood as the map. Several miles maybe. I can only think it was a typo and nobody pointed it out. Source was US forest service circa 1980.

couple of things

[M1A's r Best]

Years ago, when riding ATVs many many miles a day we would sometimes find mistakes on the USGS topo maps. Road intersections off by a couple miles or more (roads back in the boonies). Some times they are updated from aerial photographs (the maps) and someone draws a line in the wrong place.

Correct it on your maps and move on. Trying to get them to correct it takes years, if ever. Till the next time they want to update them and maybe get it right that time.

[Gabriel Suarez]

Years ago, when riding ATVs many many miles a day we would sometimes find mistakes on the USGS topo maps. Road intersections off by a couple miles or more (roads back in the boonies). Some times they are updated from aerial photographs (the maps) and someone draws a line in the wrong place.

Correct it on your maps and move on. Trying to get them to correct it takes years, if ever. Till the next time they want to update them and maybe get it right that time.

I could not care less about them correcting anything...just a cautionary note that the map sometimes is wrong.

[psalms23dad]

All good stuff.
My primary hiking pack has a waist belt so carrying a pistol has been challenging. I like to carry things I may need but don't intend on using. Med. kit, extra clothing, food and more water than I or the family would need and the like. While its not unreasonable to carry all this in a pack without a waist belt I find the stability the belt adds leads to more stability when scrambling or jumping from rock to rock.
If I'm carrying more than I'd guess 10lbs (in a backpack) I resort to my pack with a waist belt.
2 years ago I got a Ribz chest pack and it has been great. I keep the essentials in it. Med kit, flashlight, phone, snacks, fire kit and a Mora on one side and a g19 with a spare mag on the other. I had a local kydex guy make a holster that is screwed into pack for the 19. I've carried this a lot, with and without a backpack. It's been a great fix for carrying a pistol all the time when hiking.
It also allows me to carry a just small daypack on short fair weather hikes where water is more of need than fixing a meal off the trail somewhere.

[HBG]

I've been running the HPG original kit bag and the Tarahumara, but have been wanting a pack with the hip belt for the same reasons Gabe posted. I'm looking at the HPG Umlindi with a belt, the Umlindi rides a like a lumbar pack and the Tara can dock to it.
The Recon chest pack with ten speed pouches gives you a lot of options for either mags or equipment.

[Gabriel Suarez]

I have a Kifauru Express which has been handed down to my son, and a Kifaru Pointman which carries a little more. We tested them with waist belts and its a night and day deal.

I like Kifaru...I have not used any HPG gear but the chest rig has me interested

[45Smashemflat]

+1 on the HPG chest rigs. Stable, full coverage, semi-stealthy.

Another option is Safepacker, but not as accessible, to me.

[Johnny C!]

I also have the HPG chest pack. It works great
with back packs, while driving or riding bikes,
as well as solo for short hikes. It easily holds
an RMR'd 17 with a spare mag in the rear
compartment, and the front compartment
has loops to organize a lot of small items,
like folding knives, lighters, etc.

I have added a small pouch on the front for my
phone, which normally rides on my belt, and I
carry my hand held there as well.

Great kit. I use it often.


https://hillpeoplegear.com/Products/CategoryID/1/ProductID/5

[macho mouse]

I was curious, since you are not a bologna sandwich and a couple of chocolate chip cookies for lunch type of guy, what did you take for food? While it would be possible to do the ruck without food, it would begin to resemble a sort of "Death March" journey and I don't believe that was the intent of the exercise.

[Greg Nichols]

I was curious, since you are not a bologna sandwich and a couple of chocolate chip cookies for lunch type of guy, what did you take for food? While it would be possible to do the ruck without food, it would begin to resemble a sort of "Death March" journey and I don't believe that was the intent of the exercise.

I generally take protein bars that I can eat on the hump and some powder that instead of making a drink I use less water and make a pudding to eat when on a stop. Honey is another good one to take with you and use like an energy shot on the hump.

[Gabriel Suarez]

I was curious, since you are not a bologna sandwich and a couple of chocolate chip cookies for lunch type of guy, what did you take for food? While it would be possible to do the ruck without food, it would begin to resemble a sort of "Death March" journey and I don't believe that was the intent of the exercise.

Several Nalgenes. I prefer those to bladders because we can refill with local water sources, purifying as needed.
I include a jet boil and a few packs of coffee and chocolate for breaks and when cold.
For food we had some beef and ostrich jerky which we ate during short breaks at certain points.
I brought along a couple of stripped MREs as well.

Breaks were planned about once an hour. No time limits, but not an "eat up and nap" thing either. During breaks we dropped rucks, took off layers, ate, took bearings, and let the sweat dry up.

[Greg Nichols]

Several Nalgenes. I prefer those to bladders because we can refill with local water sources, purifying as needed.
I include a jet boil and a few packs of coffee and chocolate for breaks and when cold.
For food we had some beef and ostrich jerky which we ate during short breaks at certain points.
I brought along a couple of stripped MREs as well.

Breaks were planned about once an hour. No time limits, but not an "eat up and nap" thing either. During breaks we dropped rucks, took off layers, ate, took bearings, and let the sweat dry up.

This is huge when rucking. I always take at least 1 spare shirt and 1 pair of socks so I can swap out. When I take the wet off I strap it inside out to the outside of my ruck so it can dry while I'm on the move. The sun and wind dry it and the UV will kill bacteria that makes it stink. To keep your ruck from getting gamey from sweat storage, dry it in the sun.

[macho mouse]

Thanks. I will file that info away for future use.