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Gabriel Suarez
06-29-2018, 01:04 PM
55971

Greg Nichols
06-29-2018, 01:40 PM
55972
Who? Us?

I'm sure I have no idea what you mean.

Red Ryder
06-29-2018, 02:00 PM
Arm braces have made SO many ideas possible with little legal issue....The EVO is a winner: available, reliable, customizable, ambidextrous...can't wait to see how SI ups the EVO game!

JonathanNobody
06-29-2018, 02:19 PM
Arm braces have made SO many ideas possible with little legal issue....The EVO is a winner: available, reliable, customizable, ambidextrous...can't wait to see how SI ups the EVO game!

You’re forgetting optimized

chad newton
06-29-2018, 02:41 PM
Grip, sights, charging handle, trigger, mag release, colapsable folder, selector switch, bolt release, fore grip handstop.... Thats stuff I can see looking at a picture. Make them out of a lightweight metal like aluminum and do away with some of the plastic parts. Is there a market?

chad newton
06-29-2018, 02:43 PM
I will tell you this, they do look pretty damn handy.

Nabalfodrows
06-29-2018, 03:14 PM
Why this over a Glock PDW?

Brent Yamamoto
06-29-2018, 03:17 PM
Why this over a Glock PDW?

People want what they want.

Blondes vs Brunettes vs Redheads.

Gabriel Suarez
06-29-2018, 03:28 PM
Now everyone has choices.

Greg Nichols
06-29-2018, 03:39 PM
Why this over a Glock PDW?

Sometimes mass is desireable

Greg Nichols
06-29-2018, 03:40 PM
You’re forgetting optimized

Correct

Greg Nichols
06-29-2018, 03:41 PM
Grip, sights, charging handle, trigger, mag release, colapsable folder, selector switch, bolt release, fore grip handstop.... Thats stuff I can see looking at a picture. Make them out of a lightweight metal like aluminum and do away with some of the plastic parts. Is there a market?

That's the scratch of the scratch, I've been wringing this platform out for a while now.

Ted Demosthenes
06-29-2018, 03:42 PM
People want what they want.

Blondes vs Brunettes vs Redheads.

Fixed it: Blondes and Brunettes and Redheads and...be Ambi-tress-ful.

Yes dear, that looks great on you. [emoji106]❤️

JonathanNobody
06-29-2018, 03:52 PM
I’d like to see SI move into the CZ market, especially anything having to do with the P07/P09 side of the house.

Gabriel Suarez
06-29-2018, 07:07 PM
You just never know....

emtdaddy1980
06-29-2018, 08:15 PM
Sometimes mass is desireableAre we still talking about redheads?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Ted Demosthenes
06-29-2018, 10:39 PM
Greg
What’s the max range you’ve worked with that weapon?

Ted Demosthenes
06-29-2018, 10:42 PM
Sometimes mass is desireable

With apologies to the great Willie Dixon “...she built for comfort, she ain’ built for speed...”

Papa
06-30-2018, 04:27 AM
With apologies to the great Willie Dixon “...she built for comfort, she ain’ built for speed...”

Hey. Wait a minute.

"Well, long, tall Sally
She's built for speed, she got
Everything that Uncle John need,"

I know we're talking about a semi, but this thread and other recents have given me a serious SMG jones, or caused a relapse.

krav51
06-30-2018, 05:29 AM
The mags have always been the weak link in this scorpion. Three of my 30 round factory mags lost their feed lips, and my Manticore arms have broken tabs in the rear that hold down the metal lips to the plastic. Looks like CZ has finally designed a magpul like mag that appears to hold up. Don't know if new ones are shipping with the updated mags. Love it now, after all the required ergonomic changes that I'm sure Gabe will include in his version

Gabriel Suarez
06-30-2018, 07:30 AM
What if they could use MP5 magazines

EDELWEISS
06-30-2018, 07:41 AM
Holy SHITE are we really talking about SMGs in a thread I didn't start??? Cats are sleeping with dogs.....

As for the EVO, it does look like the best NON AR available option in todays gun world. Ive handled a bunch of them with different (after market) upgrades. The braces all seem to have lots of positives and each has its own "quirk".

Ted Demosthenes
06-30-2018, 07:41 AM
Hey. Wait a minute.

"Well, long, tall Sally
She's built for speed, she got
Everything that Uncle John need,


In this tactical sub-thread, my preference is comfort...

Meanwhile, back at the range:

I got a look at this piece in April. The design makes it real difficult, even as a semi, to not order one immediately.

An SI-graced version would cause the the bank to fork over the funds.

chad newton
06-30-2018, 08:03 AM
What if they could use MP5 magazines
That would be the way to go.

EDELWEISS
06-30-2018, 08:14 AM
That would be the way to go.

IDK a major plus for the EVO is the reasonably priced mags. MP5 mags are crazy expensive compared to Glock, UZI, etc. Its the expensive mags that keep the SIG SMG off my credit card. If you must have MP5 mags then either opt for a HK clone or a QC10 lower.

chad newton
06-30-2018, 08:21 AM
Maybe if it had the option of both with a simple mod. Say you already have a boatload of mp5 mags and know mp5 mags work.

chad newton
06-30-2018, 08:21 AM
Options bro, this is america....

EDELWEISS
06-30-2018, 08:23 AM
Options bro, this is america....

Yep I get it

chad newton
06-30-2018, 08:25 AM
Another one, all your buddy’s have mp5s. You train together all the time. But instead of an mp5, you choose to have a more modular, updated version from Suarez international. Idk man, sounds kinda like a good idea to me assuming you can get it to function 100%. Also that would apply to the vast market of mp5 owners the buy one of these too.

krav51
06-30-2018, 10:31 AM
What if they could use MP5 magazines

I know there are adapters that let you use Uzi mags but I'd prefer MP5

Brent Yamamoto
06-30-2018, 10:33 AM
I know there are adapters that let you use Uzi mags but I'd prefer MP5

I wasn’t aware of this. I have a shit load of uzi mags.

RobertGuy
06-30-2018, 10:38 AM
How about:
Glock magazines?
Radial delayed blowback operating system?
Suppressed (ideally an integral suppressor/barrel)?

krav51
06-30-2018, 11:17 AM
I wasn’t aware of this. I have a shit load of uzi mags.

https://youtu.be/cn5dGc1JbxM

Looks like they are only for the Uzi pro mags

Dark One
07-01-2018, 11:06 PM
Already got mine stamped but whatever SI comes out with for this bad boy I'm in!!!

Greg Nichols
07-02-2018, 06:37 AM
Greg
What’s the max range you’ve worked with that weapon?

I've gone a little past 100 on smaller than man targets but the burn ban was on down here and I didn't want to set the range on fire by shooting at the longer distance targets.

Greg Nichols
07-02-2018, 06:43 AM
What if they could use MP5 magazines


IDK a major plus for the EVO is the reasonably priced mags. MP5 mags are crazy expensive compared to Glock, UZI, etc. Its the expensive mags that keep the SIG SMG off my credit card. If you must have MP5 mags then either opt for a HK clone or a QC10 lower.


How about:
Glock magazines?


When we're talking about MP5 mags I think we're getting away from the ideal of the platform of all polymer and reasonable pricing as Edel said above, Golock mags is what jumped out to meas a good option and if they've already come up with an Uzi adapter that means it can handle straight mags. In that case my opinion would be to find/create an adaptation for the lower that would take Glock mags, that would open the market with a ton of options.

ShopMonkey
07-02-2018, 08:07 AM
Are we still talking about redheads?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

always

Rogal Dorn
07-02-2018, 04:32 PM
I am looking forward to this.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

LawDog
07-02-2018, 11:41 PM
55981
I dig the Scorpion. I experimented with a Glock PDW, but could never really embrace it. I didn't want a Glock with a thumb safety or an extended mag release. I liked the idea of a pistol that could be carried in a holster and then go through a ten-second conversion to PDW, but it always felt like a novelty item. If you set a Glock up as a dedicated PDW (which I ultimately agreed was the right way to do it), then it has to compete with the purpose-made PDWs, and I just didn't like it as much as a real PDW. My left hand felt like it was just floating around in the air like a Ricky Bobby interview.

I considered the MPX, MP5, Kriss, and even the Uzi. The Kriss was the closest contender, and much of that was because of its ability to use Glock mags. If I could convert the Scorpion to shoot Glock mags, I would definitely do it. I'm also still a little bit unhappy with the placement of the light. Otherwise, I've got mine all dialed in. At some point, I anticipate getting a second one. That one will be a Micro.

C.J. Singleton
07-03-2018, 06:01 AM
I have an EVO3 that I SBR'D a couple years ago I like it it's fun however at the time the only brace you could get was the original SIG brace or a shock wave that's why I papered it.

I ended up using a side project llc stock it's a magpul zhukov stock that Side Project built a new hinge for. It was the best option at the time it blends with the EVO really well doesn't looked like something expediently cludged on. At the time the factory folding stock kits were being scalped on gunbroker for 200 dollars over MSRP.

If I could do it again I would use the tailhook that way I could take it across state lines or use it defensively without any added entanglements.

The mags are a week point buy plenty and consider them disposable, one of manticore mags has also broken, I haven't tried the new pmag style ones yet.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

EDELWEISS
07-03-2018, 06:22 PM
Can you guys elaborate on the problems of the EVO mags. Are they really that bad? As in bad enough to ditch the whole gun without some upgrade?

LawDog
07-03-2018, 07:18 PM
Can you guys elaborate on the problems of the EVO mags. Are they really that bad? As in bad enough to ditch the whole gun without some upgrade?It's not that bad. The early factory mags were rather frail, but they improved significantly. The Manticore mags are better still. That said, pretty much every competing gun has superior mags. The MPX uses what is essentially the Lancer design (polymer body, steel feed lips). The Kriss uses Glock mags. HK mags are pricey, but they work. Uzi mags are cheap and they work. (Plus they can double as a bludgeon.) I would love to see Magpul introduce a Scorpion mag.

jtiii
07-05-2018, 02:27 PM
If mine came with a Redhead I would not look at another55997

Greg Nichols
07-05-2018, 02:43 PM
If mine came with a Redhead I would not look at another55997

Good piece but there are things the EVO does better than a pistol caliber AR.

45Smashemflat
07-05-2018, 04:00 PM
Greg, can you elaborate? I have neither handled, nor used either. They look similar in size, and the caliber is the same. I'm sure I'm missing it. What is it?

Dorkface
07-05-2018, 05:07 PM
Greg, can you elaborate? I have neither handled, nor used either. They look similar in size, and the caliber is the same. I'm sure I'm missing it. What is it?

Some quick ones would be size of the barrel due to gas systems, fire from folded because there is no need for the buffer assemble and it wont take a bunch of parts just to make it fold in the first place and maybe recoil and follow up shots due to weight difference in bolt carriers.

Brent Yamamoto
07-05-2018, 06:10 PM
To add to Dorkface’s comments...

For me, the best reason to own a 9mm AR is for commonality with your 223 rifle. If I had one, I would set up the 9mm to be as similar as possible. It makes a good understudy training weapon, is friendlier for other family members, and can of course be pressed into front line serv.

That said, I prefer other subguns over an AR.

The AR has many strengths. But one thing I don’t like about it is the charging handle. This is an area where I think an AK/HK/AUG style charging handle is better. I would prefer that fora close quarter weapon.

EDELWEISS
07-05-2018, 06:22 PM
To add to Dorkface’s comments...

For me, the best reason to own a 9mm AR is for commonality with your 223 rifle. If I had one, I would set up the 9mm to be as similar as possible..

THAT is was the reason (one of the reasons) for the MP5 because of its commonality with the G3 family. Its also why the Colt SMG (AR9mm) is such a good companion to AR rifles. The MP5 is a sexy beast but the AR SMG is just as good (maybe better in many ways) than the MP5 for guys who are trained on the AR.

The EVO has many good attributes as a SMG (PCC), not the least being its folding stock and availability of decent "braces" for the pistol models.

mike135
07-05-2018, 06:33 PM
The AR has many strengths. But one thing I don’t like about it is the charging handle. This is an area where I think an AK/HK/AUG style charging handle is better. I would prefer that fora close quarter weapon.

I rarely hear somebody wish they had a rear charging handle instead of a side charger, or wish they had a buffer tube instead of an original folding stock design.

Brent Yamamoto
07-05-2018, 06:54 PM
Again...blondes, brunettes, redheads...they all have something going for them.

Pick one and use it hard.

45Smashemflat
07-05-2018, 08:28 PM
Ok, all good stuff to consider, thanks for the insights for those who have had both.

(For the record, sticking with red heads after exposure to all three.)

Ted Demosthenes
07-05-2018, 08:28 PM
Again...blondes, brunettes, redheads...they all have something going for them.

Pick one and use it hard.

Is there any other way??? ;-]

TMAC
07-09-2018, 03:25 PM
So then there is the question of why a Scorpion vs. a Glock PDW? When I already have 3 Suarez red dot glocks, mags galore and the PDW stock, I can switch the glocks out very quickly from pistol to PDW having a dual purpose weapon with the happy stick. What does the Scorpion bring to the equation that the Glock couldn’t handle for the CCW armed civilian role? I believe I read Greg mention the Scorpion handles some things better than the Glock PDW. I’m interested what those things/situations are and if they are applicable for what I would use a PDW for? Scorpion has a little longer barrel, maybe better stock/arm brace and maybe a bit more real estate to put furniture or a scope/red dot on. I don’t see a reason for a scope on a 9mm, as I think a red dot will do all a scope can at the distances you would use the PDW, and faster acquisition at that. Thoughts?

Gabriel Suarez
07-09-2018, 03:35 PM
Simple. If its not for you its not for you.

Why a Stakeout?
Why a Pointman and a Covert 12?
Why a Glock PDW and a Scorpion?

Because we can and because, believe it or not...not everyone wants the same things as I do.

So then there is the question of why a Scorpion vs. a Glock PDW? When I already have 3 Suarez red dot glocks, mags galore and the PDW stock, I can switch the glocks out very quickly from pistol to PDW having a dual purpose weapon with the happy stick. What does the Scorpion bring to the equation that the Glock couldn’t handle for the CCW armed civilian role? I believe I read Greg mention the Scorpion handles some things better than the Glock PDW. I’m interested what those things/situations are and if they are applicable for what I would use a PDW for? Scorpion has a little longer barrel, maybe better stock/arm brace and maybe a bit more real estate to put furniture or a scope/red dot on. I don’t see a reason for a scope on a 9mm, as I think a red dot will do all a scope can at the distances you would use the PDW, and faster acquisition at that. Thoughts?

TMAC
07-09-2018, 04:19 PM
Ok I get it...capitalism, I’m all for it, but my questions were about application and if there are notable advantages of one over the other for specific applications? I have not worked with the scorpion platform yet. Having worked with it, can you elaborate yet on your findings/opinions?

Gabriel Suarez
07-09-2018, 05:11 PM
Ok I get it...capitalism, I’m all for it, but my questions were about application and if there are notable advantages of one over the other for specific applications? I have not worked with the scorpion platform yet. Having worked with it, can you elaborate yet on your findings/opinions?

No...its not about capitalism. If it was I'd be selling cheap AKs and Rugers in Uncle Mike holsters to all the penny pinchers in Arizona.
.
I think Lawdog said it best in another thread. To wit:

"I understand the appeal of living a minimalist life, and there is a cleanliness and order that is more easily achieved with fewer possessions. But if you are going to pursue any craft beyond the novice stage, you will accumulate a variety of tools. Most people will own a bicycle. But an avid cyclist will have a road bike, a mountain bike, a race bike, and maybe a tri bike or a touring bike. Your average home owner will have a "hand saw." A cabinet maker will have a panel saw, tenon saw, crosscut saw, dovetail saw, coping saw, dozuki, and a flush-cut saw. "

As far as the Scorpion...I will publish more soon

Greg Nichols
07-10-2018, 07:45 AM
So then there is the question of why a Scorpion vs. a Glock PDW? When I already have 3 Suarez red dot glocks, mags galore and the PDW stock, I can switch the glocks out very quickly from pistol to PDW having a dual purpose weapon with the happy stick. What does the Scorpion bring to the equation that the Glock couldn’t handle for the CCW armed civilian role? It really isn't a matter of something that the Glock couldn't do as much as a matter of preference for certain activities

I believe I read Greg mention the Scorpion handles some things better than the Glock PDW. Specifically it brings more mass to the table, they're more robust, longer, and heavier by design which leads to better strikes, muzzle punches and the like. Without the action being involved in those activities and with the previously listed benefits I'm much more comfortable using an EVO as a blunt object than I am a Glock PDW. I also like the extra little bit of hand romm on the fore-end though I default to a magwell hold on it like I used to on the MP5

I’m interested what those things/situations are and if they are applicable for what I would use a PDW for? Scorpion has a little longer barrel, maybe better stock/arm brace and maybe a bit more real estate to put furniture or a scope/red dot on. I don’t see a reason for a scope on a 9mm, as I think a red dot will do all a scope can at the distances you would use the PDW, and faster acquisition at that. Thoughts?

Mine in bold. Don't get antsey gang I've been working with this platform for about a year and Gabe and I will be meeting at the minds shortly for some video and written content on the EVO.

Dorkface
07-10-2018, 09:50 AM
I feel a little ashamed that I didn't also consider the melee advantages...

Brent Yamamoto
07-10-2018, 10:59 AM
I agree with Greg's points.

I don't have enough time with the Scorpion to comment in depth on it, but I've done enough with them to know I'd be very happy with one. Shooting wise, they will accomplish the same things. Fighting wise they will do about the same, though yes if I had to hit someone I'd rather have the Scorpion.

The Glock PDW is lighter and more compact with a folder, the Scorpion is bigger and more robust. Which fits your needs better?


This starts to split hairs, but maybe one way to think about it - the Glock PDW is when an unexpected opportunity comes your way, and the Scorpion is for more expected opportunities.

Neither are for a reactive fight, that's for your EDC pistol. But there are different kinds of proactive fights. Sometimes you're not planning on a fight, but when faced with a choice you decide to go. Other times, you're going to a fight on purpose.



In some ways the Glock PDW is a weapon of expedience...you can take it places where you won't take a larger weapon. It is for those situations when you have time to access something better than your EDC, but because we live in the real world you haven't brought your rifle or shotgun. I think it's a little silly to carry a PDW around all the time. But it's easy to do when you want to.


The Scorpion is more robust. If I was going to a fight and wanted a 9mm SMG, I'd choose it over the PDW.


Splitting hairs. Shoot them in the face no matter what you have.

Greg Nichols
07-10-2018, 11:09 AM
Here's some stuff I commented in one of the other threads that applies here.

I've messed around with braced or stocked MACs, Mini-Uzi, Uzi, the original Scorpion, SIG MPX, and HK UMPs. The EVOis my favorite for a number of reasons.

And don't even think of Stens, Swedish Ks, Sterlings, MP40s, M3 Grease gun, Thompson, or Beretta M12s or I will lose my shit. Those are antiques and I'm not going down that bunny trail. That goes for the MP7 and the Styer, they're either too rare or not available to the public. The P90, as much as I like it, unless you're dropping the tax stamp to make it useable in this application is out due to it's design.

Mini Uzis, MACs, and the original Scorpion are all so small that they have no advantage over a Glock PDW and the Glock is far superior in accuracy and reliability.

Of the UMP, MP5, Uzi, MPX, and EVO, (all comparable size and function) the Uzi doesn't compete at all. It's too old and too loose when compared to the other 3 and the open bolt design has issues as well. That leaves us with the UMP, MP5, and EVO. The interesting thing is that the manual of arms is almost identical between the three excepting the MPX, they all shoot 9mm with an slight advantage to the UMP as it shoots .40 and .45 as well. The MP5 has been around since the 60s and the UMP since 98, leaving the Evo and MPX as the new kids on the block. So the MP5 and UMP are battle proven while the EVO and MPX are still working on their resumes.

What separates the 4? The categories that start setting the EVO way ahead of the others.

Construction: the EVOs body is all polymer which means light weight, reliable, and customizable.

Support: As the new kid on the block these aren't hard to get as well as parts and service. There is also the advantage that there are aftermarket upgrades and customization that can make the EVO better where you're basically stuck with what you get on the other 3.

Price: MP5 and the HK are $2000+ and mags are around $50 each. You add an optic, brace, and a full load of mags to that and you're pushing 3-3K+ for a useable set up and replacement parts are hard to find and expensive as well. The MPX starts to edge in here with a price of about $1500, but mags are still $40 each, and it doesn't come with BUIS. To get a good useable package you're going to be deep into the mid 2000nds for a complete package on a weapon that works almost exactly like a 9mm AR. The EVO with it's $20 mags, factory BUIS, and brace packages it's a simple proposition to have a complete fighting platform for well under $2000 that's going to work just as well or better than the others listed.

Brent Yamamoto
07-10-2018, 11:18 AM
Add to that, the EVO is less gassy than the MPX when suppressed.

That's actually a benefit over the Glock PDW. The Glock isn't as bad as some other platforms, but the EVO has an advantage here.

Greg Nichols
07-10-2018, 11:23 AM
Add to that, the EVO is less gassy than the MPX when suppressed.

That's actually a benefit over the Glock PDW. The Glock isn't as bad as some other platforms, but the EVO has an advantage here.

And if suppressed there is a carbine fore-end available that will shroud the can and provide more room for a floating hand.

chad newton
07-10-2018, 05:05 PM
I like the idea of it being bigger. It will be straight out more stable, Idk how anyone can argue with that. There is a purpose when you want to be more proactive and utilize a better overall weapon system for that intended purpose. Maybe it is a suppressed e&e type weapon? Maybe you want something a step above a braced pistol? Or maybe you just want one because they are bad ass????

Dark One
07-11-2018, 12:37 PM
All I know is I want to spend some $$$ on SI Scorpion EVO goodness!!

golucky
07-11-2018, 03:02 PM
Got the itch for the Evo too, now which one to acquire ? S1 or S2 Micro ?

TMAC
07-13-2018, 02:11 PM
Muchos gracias for the info and insight gentlemen. That was what I wanted to hear. Good insight!

M1A's r Best
07-21-2018, 03:53 AM
Looks like CZ is coming out with a new/smaller version?

http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s2-pistol-micro-w-brace/

Gabriel Suarez
07-21-2018, 08:43 AM
Discussed...search the thread and the other one for my thoughts on "the smaller one".

Papa
07-22-2018, 12:12 AM
My practice is to carry the largest pistol I can conceal in relative comfort. That means G17/G21/M9/226 sized weapons with a smaller backup on which I can get a full firing grip. Too small is too small. A telescoping brace that crowds the wrist when collapsed? Just say no. Diminishing size means diminishing returns.

And the sainted Uzi has always felt to me like an overpowered mid-60's electric drill.

I know, sacrilege.

LittleBill
07-22-2018, 10:37 AM
Pardon me if this has been addressed elsewhere: but how about the SIG MCX Virtus braced pistol with a 9” barrel in 300BLK?

19” folded: fits nicely into an unobtrusive “nice yuppie businessperson” messenger bag. Usable when folded. Silencer-ready flash-hider.

Tricked-out with Geisele trigger, Troy folding sights, Aimpoint H2 in LaRue mount, Surefire PX2 on the side.... near-rifle performance in a gun that the law considers to be a handgun, that I can carry loaded in my ride, or wherever my CC permit allows me to carry a pistol.

The Timbuk2 Command messenger bag, size large, holds the folded Virtus, extra mags, trauma kit, etc.... and doesn’t look the least bit ‘tactical’....

Gabriel Suarez
07-22-2018, 10:47 AM
Please read my posts on

My Impressions of the Evo
And
Choosing a 9mm over a rifle cartridge

That I do not need to repost every single article over and over again.

LittleBill
07-22-2018, 10:53 AM
Sorry! My bad...

John_Frederick
07-22-2018, 05:15 PM
I am very interested to see where you guys take the Scorpion... What mods and accessories you feel it does and doesn't need and in particular which weapon lights and mounting solutions you feel work best.
I recently picked up my own Scorpion for many of the same reasons Gabe has already laid out and I joined this fine forum so I could see what developed. I know enough to know how much I don't know so I am looking forward to learning from you all.

Scott
10-28-2018, 02:56 AM
As a lefty, shooting an unsuppressed MP5 blasted gas at my eye with every shot. It was so distracting that that platform was a no go.

Anyone have experience with the
Evo
Micro Evo
Glock PDW
as a south paw?
Anyone done so while suppressed?

Blowback designs aren't ideal with a port on the face side but are some workable?