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View Full Version : Unsighted fire of DA/SA pistols.



SteveO
06-18-2018, 10:50 AM
Going off on a tangent here...

Years ago, when trying to get better at hip shooting (1-3 yards), I noticed that when shooting my Ruger P-85 (all I could afford at the time - don't hate) I was more accurate with DA than I was with SA.

My theory was that the longer trigger pull helped me "index" the gun better. Any of y'all noticed something similar?

Papa
06-18-2018, 11:29 AM
Going off on a tangent here...

Years ago, when trying to get better at hip shooting (1-3 yards), I noticed that when shooting my Ruger P-85 (all I could afford at the time - don't hate) I was more accurate with DA than I was with SA.

My theory was that the longer trigger pull helped me "index" the gun better. Any of y'all noticed something similar?

I think it has to do with subconsciously gripping the pistol harder during the DA stroke. And, in my case, with extensive DA revolver trigger time.
Large, clunky and marginally accurate as the P85 is, it still has the virtues of DA/SA pistols, and one rode many holsterless miles in my waistband AIWB many years ago, when it was all I could afford.

Greg Nichols
06-18-2018, 12:20 PM
Created to clean another thread. Will post some additional thoughts and observations later.

Gabriel Suarez
06-18-2018, 12:33 PM
So my POV, and we have a great deal of proof.

You do not see crouching hip point shooting in force on force and almost never in gunfight videos.
People move...even if they do not know how, every instinct tells them to get their ass out of the way.
You cannot get your ass out of the way if you are crouched and hip shooting.

What people do is extend the arm to the enemy as they move and shoot from line of sight
They can move that way far more easily than otherwise
And yes...we had the point shooters try their stuff and then present all manner of reasons why the FOF drill was not a good test.

Sorry kids...that shit no worky.

Randy Harris
06-18-2018, 01:38 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself....and I've been saying exactly that for a VERY long time....

If you are truly close enough that you need to shoot from "the hip" then you are probably gonna need the other hand up to either fend or foul the other guy's draw if you are in touching distance. If you are outside of touching distance then just MOVE and get the gun up in your eye line. The guys that try to shoot from below line of sight while moving tend to miss A LOT . The guys that shoot from below line of sight standing still tend to get hit by the other guy A LOT. Guys that move with gun up in visual cone tend to hit the other guy A LOT and don't get hit themselves nearly as much.

A lot of the time even when starting at 2 arms length distance the 1st step will create enough space to get the gun up into your eyeline (or just under eyeline at maybe chest to chin level) and get the gun to midpoint or 3/4 extension without the other guy being able to grab it or slap it out of the way. By step 2 you are going to be at full extension with the gun up where you can see where it is pointing. That gets exponentially better results than standing still and shooting from belt level.

Papa
06-18-2018, 01:57 PM
Yep. It's a neat trick. You can get amazing results, from hipshooting and from the old Fairbairn variation, as long as nobody moves.

And the other guy doesn't shoot back.

Randy Harris
06-18-2018, 03:26 PM
Yep. It's a neat trick. You can get amazing results, from hipshooting and from the old Fairbairn variation, as long as nobody moves.

And the other guy doesn't shoot back.

And he doesn't shoot FIRST.....

choirboy
06-18-2018, 04:15 PM
Take a trip to yeateryear circa 80s when the finest hi-cap pistol known to coppers, the beloved 5906 was THE popo auto.

The local cop shop was then a S & W dealer. Even had a Smith armorer on staff. He was not a "certificated" Smith instructor, but he was damn good. He did not teach "stand and deliver" from the hip. No one called it get off the "X" then, but it was get off the "X". He said the first DA shot was just a general direction throwaway to get to the giddyful mag of 15 imagine that 15 bullets.

There were a lot of us guys who had been department stuck to revolvers who tried and failed getting meaningful round counts on target moving and doing the big DA squeeze zipping off of the "X".

Choirboy who did well with his BUG 1911

DutchV
06-18-2018, 08:14 PM
'Hip shooting' sounds like a movie thing that doesn't do well in the real world.

chad newton
06-18-2018, 08:29 PM
If you don’t move, you better hope the person is a bad shot. I won’t put my life on speculation.....

blackie
06-19-2018, 08:05 AM
I’m typically not a fan of lasers, but I have a crimson trace grip on my LCRx. That helps a lot as a point shooting training aid. I upgraded the front sight to a big dot, and almost always have the laser grip turned off when I carry it.

Gabriel Suarez
06-19-2018, 08:21 AM
Lasers have a place as a tertiary sighting system. If you truly need to shoot without any additional verification of your physical alignment...usually because you have no time or initiative in the fight, you wont be able,to use the laser either.

Unless you have attended our force on force training, you simply dont know what we are discussing, nor what reallt happens in the fight.

Train, learn, opine expertly.

Greg Nichols
06-19-2018, 08:42 AM
'Hip shooting' sounds like a movie thing that doesn't do well in the real world.

In extreme close contact it needs to be thought of in the context of a retention concept. Your free hand is fending off physical attack and body position allows for a one handed draw stroke. The draw drives the elbow back to ensure retention without visual verification. You fire into the attacker to break contact/create distance, then move off the line of attack on a lateral or rear oblique (not backwards) while gaining visual verification on the gun as you create more distance.


Quick Draw McGraw speed rocks will get you killed. If you're too close it destroys your fighting posture by putting your skull behind your heels, and if you have distance movement is far more effective at keeping you from getting shot than a fast draw stroke.

Gabriel Suarez
06-19-2018, 09:05 AM
The physical act of shooting is the same regardless of what the eyes are focusing on or looking for. The same draw and shot fired could be physically aligned (lets use educated terms not seventh grade education terms from the 1930s), or visually verified via various visual indexes.

Greg Nichols
06-19-2018, 09:13 AM
The physical act of shooting is the same regardless of what the eyes are focusing on or looking for. The same draw and shot fired could be physically aligned (lets use educated terms not seventh grade education terms from the 1930s), or visually verified via various visual indexes.
You're right, I rushed through it while working, edited for content.