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Fjordforder
05-10-2018, 06:11 PM
Hey all, apologies if this is in the wrong forum, please don`t hesitate to move if it is!

I`m in the market for a new backpack gun.

My job brings me anywhere within the WA/ID/OR area, but mostly sticking to Western WA. My position on my team involves a backpack carrying a toolbag, water, food and sometimes a change of clothes. I`m wanting a bigger gun though, and so my options have been brought down to a TAC14 or AR PDW.

The job involves a lot of work indoors and around vehicles, I`m already setup for 5.56 and 12 gauge, with AR mags and ammo.

For indoors work, which would you choose?

Gabriel Suarez
05-10-2018, 06:35 PM
A 12 ga is all but guaranteed death. We all like rifles...but shotguns kill better...and for CQB...indoors...the 12 rules.

Brent Yamamoto
05-10-2018, 06:49 PM
Stakeout, no question.

Fjordforder
05-10-2018, 06:53 PM
I`ve been leaning towards rolling a 12. Glad to hear I`ve got the boyz behind me, hah.

chad newton
05-10-2018, 07:20 PM
Stakeout brother. Get your own death machine.

Mike Heckathorn
05-10-2018, 08:24 PM
A better definition of the areas and uses would be appreciated. Any large quadrupeds?


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Fjordforder
05-10-2018, 09:07 PM
A better definition of the areas and uses would be appreciated. Any large quadrupeds?


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Some, but for the overwhelmingly vast majority of the time I`m indoors. Areas range from exceedingly rural to major cities to million dollar mansions. Almost literally anywhere.

Mike Heckathorn
05-10-2018, 09:20 PM
Indoors? Shotgun.


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Fjordforder
05-10-2018, 09:21 PM
As was said earlier, good to hear those more knowledgeable have the same thoughts as I do.

Greg Nichols
05-11-2018, 08:35 AM
Indoors = Pistol length shots. The shotgun is the king of the pistol fight.

Brent Yamamoto
05-11-2018, 09:08 AM
The AR pistol is cool. I have a couple, and I'm sure I will have some more in the future. But these days the things that get the most use by far are my PDW and Stakeout. (Not counting the EDC of course)

RobertGuy
05-11-2018, 04:09 PM
What range do you need?

What is the maximum "guaranteed death" range of 12 gauge Ammunition 2-3/4" 34 Pellets #4 buck?

chad newton
05-11-2018, 04:53 PM
Use 00 buck, death range isn’t guaranteed with anything except maybe 50bmg or bigger. The biggest question would be, will your training support the platform to ensure hits on a man size target out to 20-30 yards while they are shooting back?

ChrisNobody
05-11-2018, 05:30 PM
I’m going to go with Brent on this. I have had an AR pistol in the vehicle for quite some time and do so now. However, after the shotgun course, I am convinced that the stakeout is a more appropriate choice for me and my situation. I’ll retire the AR pistol once my Tac-14 is fully converted over to a Stakeout by SI.

As for 12 Ga #4 buckshot, it depends on the brand and how it patterns in your individual shotgun. I think of #4 for 12 yards and less. I think of 00 buckshot (Federal LE 8 pellet reduced recoil)as 18 yards and less. I think of 12 Ga Slug (Federal LE Reduced Recoil) as 75 yards or less (although I’m pretty solid with it out to 110-125 yards).

Brent Yamamoto
05-11-2018, 05:37 PM
Agree w CN’s range suggestions.

m48shooter
05-12-2018, 08:13 PM
I run the fed top flight buck and fed slug at work.

With my Fakeout w slug sights I can headshot out to 15 and "work" center mass "no flyers" at 25 w the buck.

In a real fight in a rural setting I also know with the top flight I can drop at least half the buckshot onto the tango at 50 yards... most cases it was one or two flyers.

Not my first choice... but with the top flight ammo the range is extended.

Slugs... you should be able to reach out to 100 depending on skill.

The best thing about a gauge is its adaptability with different loads. Try them, test them... then train..

Scott
12-04-2018, 02:08 AM
For indoors work I would choose something without deafening ear damage. Have you fired a short 223 before?

Why not a PDW like an EVO scorpion?

Jsavik
12-04-2018, 03:29 AM
Perhaps not a legit reason, but I look at the value of the weapon. If it was stolen from the vehicle, how much would it hurt? My AR pistols and scorpion are well over the $1k mark. My shotgun, $400 or less.

georgeib
12-04-2018, 04:30 AM
Perhaps not a legit reason, but I look at the value of the weapon. If it was stolen from the vehicle, how much would it hurt? My AR pistols and scorpion are well over the $1k mark. My shotgun, $400 or less.This begs the question, is cost really the main concern when life and death are on the line? I mean, I hear what you're saying for sure, I'd much rather lose $400 than $1200. But if I know I'm going to a gun fight, I'm bringing the "best" gun I have access to. Regardless of cost.

barnetmill
12-04-2018, 06:19 AM
This begs the question, is cost really the main concern when life and death are on the line? I mean, I hear what you're saying for sure. I'd much rather lose $400 than $1200, but if I know I'm going to a gun fight, I'm bringing the "best" gun I have access to. Regardless of cost.
Valid point about safety versus cost. This could have its own thread.

You need to do your own risk analysis versus cost benefits. A lot of this is perception and state of mind over an issue of danger. Danger is defined as the immediate likelihood of serious injury or death. Hazard implies a lesser risk.
Relative to a cancer risk for the general population EPA often sets a risk level of one case in million and a lesser risk as being ok. For some occupations and scenarios the government will would accept a much greater risk of say one in 10,000.
The most important fact is very often it is impossible to make something absolutely safe. The smart person can manage risk to their advantage so the odds are more in your favor, but you are seldom absolutely safe.

It is most important to account for all foreseeable factors and not to focus just on one danger. Below is an old fable of someone that tried engineer away a danger and still overlooked another fatal scenario.


From Aesop's fables https://fablesofaesop.com/the-kings-son-and-the-painted-lion.html
A king, whose only son was fond of martial exercises, had a dream in which he was warned that his son would be killed by a lion. Afraid the dream should prove true, he built for his son a pleasant palace and adorned its walls for his amusement with all kinds of life-sized animals, among which was the picture of a lion. When the young Prince saw this, his grief at being thus confined burst out afresh, and, standing near the lion, he said: “O you most detestable of animals! through a lying dream of my father’s, which he saw in his sleep, I am shut up on your account in this palace as if I had been a girl: what shall I now do to you?’ With these words he stretched out his hands toward a thorn-tree, meaning to cut a stick from its branches so that he might beat the lion. But one of the tree’s prickles pierced his finger and caused great pain and inflammation, so that the young Prince fell down in a fainting fit. A violent fever suddenly set in, from which he died not many days later.

Moral
We had better bear our troubles bravely than try to escape them.

Jake Salyards
12-04-2018, 11:01 AM
Roof over your head = shotgun. I believe it is unsurpassed in the indoor role. If you have sky over your head I lean towards 55.6 or bigger rifle round.

Just an opinion.

Greg Nichols
12-04-2018, 11:34 AM
Roof over your head = shotgun. I believe it is unsurpassed in the indoor role. If you have sky over your head I lean towards 55.6 or bigger rifle round.

Just an opinion.

That's the consensus. If I have to transition between buildings or in other words Urban rather than CQB I'll take the shorty AR or 9mm SMG as I can't guarantee my engagement distances once I leave the structure.