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View Full Version : HANDS UP - DON'T SHOOT? : YOU SHOT ANYWAY, NOW EXPLAIN WHY



Gabriel Suarez
05-08-2018, 09:37 AM
Since the other thread devolved into the usual "oh no...the good guy will fry and the youth will riot" nonsense, lets take this one out of the Ayoobian Morass Of Fear and discuss it like learned warrior gentlemen.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=aRr7p_1525732525

Here we go...you shot him...he is dead. Now articulate why. Eloquence counts.

chad newton
05-08-2018, 10:23 AM
Other then full out non compliance, he kept reaching into his pocket multiple times. I felt threatened for my life....

Papa
05-08-2018, 10:45 AM
At approximately 0300 hrs on 5.8.18 I was on solo uniformed patrol in my clearly marked black and white patrol truck in Harvey when I observed a vehicle ahead of me, occupied by 2 subjects, and ran the plate. It came back to a stolen vehicle. I notified Dispatch of my location and the reason for the stop and activated my overhead lights. The vehicle pulled into the gas station at Manhattan. The station has been the subject of several armed robberies. As I brought my patrol truck to a stop, slightly angled to the left, I transferred my microphone to my left hand and drew my service pistol with my right. Exiting but remaining in the swing of my driver's door I gave verbal commands over my PA to the driver to turn off the ignition and to slowly place the ignition keys on the roof of the car. He did. Then I instructed the drivers: "Nice and easy. Both hands outside the window so I can see 'em. All the way out." The driver complied. I kept the passenger under observation and noted that he was moving around inside the car. I instructed him: "Passenger. Put your hands slowly out the window so I can see them."

This is a relatively high-crime area. And in my training and experience, subjects in stolen cars are often in possession of firearms and other dangerous weapons.

Instead, the passenger got quickly out of the car and walked toward the gas pumps. I commanded him to stop and he put his hands over his head but did not stop. Dropping the mike I brought my service pistol up to a high ready position, aiming at the subject, keeping his upper torso in view and indexing. I was aware of an uninvolved vehicle moving to his immediate right, and that there were patrons and an attendant inside the store. I repeatedly yelled, "STOP! POLICE!" to no effect. I circled around behind my vehicle to place it between me and the stolen car. I saw the subject turn to look at me and then, leaving his left hand in the air, drop his right hand to his waist area and then turn to his right as he ducked behind the pumps. I believed him to be drawing a firearm. I moved diagonally and forward to my right and brought my pistol up to eye level. The suspect emerged from behind the pump with what appeared to be a handgun in both hands.
At this point we approximately 20 feet apart. I fired five rounds from my service pistol from a high point position as I was unable to acquire a clear sight picture due to the speed of the encounter. The suspect got off one round which would likely have struck me if I had remained where I was when he ducked behind the pump. (Then:

1. He collapsed immediately.

OR

2, My shots had no apparent effect and he turned and ran across the parking lot, holding the pistol in his right hand. I obtained a clear sight picture, mindful of the backstop, fired five more times, striking him in the back and causing him to collapse. I could not permit a suspect who so readily engaged a uniformed police officer with deadly force and who had fled from a stolen car to escape the scene and endanger arriving patrol units and those members of the general public in the immediate area.


I circled quickly around the pumps, using them for cover while keeping the downed suspect in view and the stolen vehicle in my peripheral vision in case of a threat from that direction. I checked myself quickly for wounds, finding none, then used my portable radio to request other units Code 3, indicate shots fired and a suspect down with at least one other not in custody, and ask for aid to stage at the nearest intersection until the scene could be secured. I did not approach the downed suspect, as I did not know if he was feigning injury or if he had another gun.


So I had to change the scenario a bit. No way am I gonna chase this guy with another in a stolen car I haven't cleared. I don't know the position of the stolie relative to the pumps. Too much I don't know at this point, but you get the picture.

gssc
05-08-2018, 10:47 AM
If this is from the perspective of a non-uniformed police officer, we need more context. Why am I asking this guy to put his hands up at a gas station? If his in my home, then he was not complying with my instructions and made a furtive movement to his waste band as he moved behind cover where I know from my training that is where criminals like to keep their weapons. Knowing that action beats reaction and I was in fear for my life and that of my family.

Christopher Calhoun
05-08-2018, 10:56 AM
Is this conversation strictly from an LEO perspective? If so, I feel any comment would be my opinion, as I donít have experience. However, I would add that IF I was, my command for compliance would be clear and to the point, and specific to further attempt to negate miscommunication. Something to the effect of, ďinterlock your fingers and place your hands on your head, and donít take any step or move until I say so or I will shoot you.Ē I have reasons for the chosen command in my own head.


If not and Iím just a civilian giving a life altering verbal warning, if Iím in my home, I wouldíve already shot the intruder. If Iím in public, the command would be to stop, leave me alone or I will shoot, until further action dictates I pulled my firearm and shot him dead as well.

The aftermath would be:


I felt my life was threatened when I requested the bad guy, him/her on the ground, to stop moving towards me and they did not. I made clear that I would shoot him/her if they did not and they reached for their pocket and advanced toward me, to which I felt I needed to defend my life as I did not want to give him/her a chance to harm me. I felt their intent was to do me grievous harm and I am ready to go to the hospital to be evaluated for injury and would not like to say anything else until then. Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Papa
05-08-2018, 10:57 AM
I neglected to add why I fired five times each time and that I reloaded while partially covered by the pumps, placing the partially loaded mag into the my waistband and working the slide, to explain why there's a live .45 round on the deck.

Brent Yamamoto
05-08-2018, 11:01 AM
One point to add...

I think the language "I was in fear for my life" sounds like what it is...a soundbite. It's become a mantra that too many people think will save them.

More effective, IMHO, to clearly demonstrate how the bad guy demonstrated the intent, means and opportunity to harm me and others.

How did he demonstrate that intent? (What did he do or say, how did his movement/positioning/body language demonstrate intent, etc.)

What were his means? (What did he have to harm you with? How was he built? How many friends? Etc.)

How was it that he had the opportunity to do you harm? If you're in vehicle for instance, you need to be able to explain why you left the (relative) safety of the vehicle.

One thing that Papa used above can be really useful - prior knowledge of the area, what's been happening in the news, criminal behavior in the area, etc.

If you get car jacked, it might be most tactically sound just to let him take it. but if you knew there was a car jacker in the area that's been murdering the victims...

Papa
05-08-2018, 11:12 AM
One point to add...

I think the language "I was in fear for my life" sounds like what it is...a soundbite. It's become a mantra that too many people think will save them.

More effective, IMHO, to clearly demonstrate how the bad guy demonstrated the intent, means and opportunity to harm me and others.

How did he demonstrate that intent? (What did he do or say, how did his movement/positioning/body language demonstrate intent, etc.)

What were his means? (What did he have to harm you with? How was he built? How many friends? Etc.)

How was it that he had the opportunity to do you harm? If you're in vehicle for instance, you need to be able to explain why you left the (relative) safety of the vehicle.

One thing that Papa used above can be really useful - prior knowledge of the area, what's been happening in the news, criminal behavior in the area, etc.

If you get car jacked, it might be most tactically sound just to let him take it. but if you knew there was a car jacker in the area that's been murdering the victims...

Yes. Much more important to lay out facts that show that your life was in danger than to claim you were in fear for your life.

In other words, you're in danger whether you're afraid or not. How often have we heard people in the aftermath of a stressful situation say, "I didn't have time to be afraid. I just knew I had to do something or get killed!" The danger is perceived, effective action is taken, and only after the situation is truly safe is there time to address fear.

apamburn
05-08-2018, 11:49 AM
From a non-LEO, so take it for what it's worth....

"I saw the suspect driving a vehicle matching the description of a stolen vehicle so I stopped him. From the moment I stopped him he presented increasing danger to me and everyone else around based on my training and experience: He got out of his vehicle immediately, began repeatedly reaching towards his right side pocket and hiding that side from me, and moving towards cover and concealment at the gas pump. I gave him multiple commands to stop and warned that if he didn't I would fire, but he ignored them. Based on his movements, behavior, and non-compliance I was afraid he was going to hurt me or someone else in the parking lot.

When I came around the pump I observed a handgun in his hands and fired."

A few questions / observations:

- Could this officer have shot before the suspect reached cover? I feel like it could be articulated but I lack the skill to do so.

- It seems to me that "articulate brevity" is called for in situations like this. Am I wrong? I would think it's not good to have a 10 paragraph explanation on deck, right?

- Good tactics make for easier articulation. Even if this officer waited, as he did, for the suspect to reach cover before shooting, he could have moved to his own cover (maybe actually taking the suspect's cover - moving to the pump before suspect got to it), or got off the x as soon as the suspect got close to the pump (like Papa mentioned). Those tactics would have given him better cover / time / view of the suspect which would improve his ability to articulate his actions. Is this an accurate representation of the relationship between tactics and articulation?

Gabriel Suarez
05-08-2018, 12:07 PM
Other then full out non compliance, he kept reaching into his pocket multiple times. I felt threatened for my life....

That should be sufficient for placement as S-1 on the facesheet of the homicide report I would think.

Gabriel Suarez
05-08-2018, 12:09 PM
If this is from the perspective of a non-uniformed police officer, we need more context. Why am I asking this guy to put his hands up at a gas station? If his in my home, then he was not complying with my instructions and made a furtive movement to his waste band as he moved behind cover where I know from my training that is where criminals like to keep their weapons. Knowing that action beats reaction and I was in fear for my life and that of my family.

Well...since it is a police shooting, looking at it from the POV of a stock broker makes no sense. If we want to discuss those, get some video of stock brokers versus thugs and we can discuss in context.

Gabriel Suarez
05-08-2018, 12:10 PM
I think the language "I was in fear for my life" sounds like what it is...a soundbite. It's become a mantra that too many people think will save them.


I agree 100%. There are no "magic words". Only words, and if you fail to use them, use them improperly, or more foolishly, wait for someone else to put them in your mouth, you will be the suspect in the report and not the victim.

Gabriel Suarez
05-08-2018, 12:58 PM
And like I said in the class (and burst several CCW insurance bubbles), the police report will not wait for your Deus Ex Machina attorney to roll code three to the scene to speak for you. It will be written before the responding officer's end of watch and I doubt he will wait patiently for your attorney to tell him you don't want to say anything. Fail to explain the event to the rationale of being listed as a victim, and I guarantee you will be listed as a suspect...with all the cost and drama that entails.

So forget those magic words, magic talismans, or magic phone numbers. Learn to speak and explain what you saw and felt like an educated first world person or suffer the results.

gssc
05-08-2018, 01:48 PM
Well...since it is a police shooting, looking at it from the POV of a stock broker makes no sense. If we want to discuss those, get some video of stock brokers versus thugs and we can discuss in context.

Thank you. It just was not clear from the original post if we were supposed to look at this through the eyes of a civilian or a police officer. Seeing at it is a police officer it has no relevance to me. Police are playing on a different field to me.

Gabriel Suarez
05-08-2018, 02:01 PM
Thank you. It just was not clear from the original post if we were supposed to look at this through the eyes of a civilian or a police officer. Seeing at it is a police officer it has no relevance to me. Police are playing on a different field to me.

Actually, they are not...At the point that the trigger is pressed, it doesn't matter what your profession is. If you take the POV that only stuff pertaining to "civilians minding their own business" is valuable to you I would ask why even be here at WT. I will bet that I can explain the why of an aerial maneuver...or an emergency medical procedure...and I am neither doctor nor pilot.

If you cannot use words to describe elements, it won't matter what your profession is.

Brent Yamamoto
05-08-2018, 02:18 PM
Guys, do you think that watching a youtube video on how to throw a punch is sufficient training to win a fist fight?

It might behoove you to practice hitting the bag now and then, no?

I think we can all agree...most of us here PRACTICE the physical skills of violence.

How many of you PRACTICE the skills of verbal articulation for the aftermath of violence?

That is the point of all these posts.

I encourage you to write down what you would say to the responding officer, whether the situation in this video applies to you or not. You don't have to post it here...just write it down on your own. And then practice saying it out loud! Come back to it in a week and do it again. Repetition will make you better.

You need to flex your intellectual and verbal muscle. You need to build it up. And you need to maintain it...this is no different than doing your pushups.

How hard do you have to think to perform a tap/rack? How hard do you have to think to draw your pistol or press your trigger?

How awesome would it be if articulating the necessity to defend your life was just as reflexive as throwing a punch?


Practice!!!!!!

Gabriel Suarez
05-08-2018, 02:22 PM
I hate the words..."I am a civilian". It is descriptive of a mind set of "can't". It is also a mind set of underachievers and excuses for not living up to a physical or tactical ideal. It may not be what some of you mean when you say it...but that is how it sounds to me. It is like the "I carry a gun so I don't need to lift weights", or "I have a CCW so I don't need that karate stuff".

What you do need to do is think. And that is the point of all of this.

If I am asking too much, let me know and we will stop...and go back to the fear-based thinking that so many seem enamored with.

Brent Yamamoto
05-08-2018, 02:35 PM
While civilians don't have a duty to act, I think as self-selecting warriors we DO have a duty to make ourselves better. We have a duty to our families, and to our own expectations of ourselves.

That includes getting stronger in all aspects. Leaner, faster, better. Dry practice, live fire, and force on force. I've met many of you and know that many of you are physically very, very capable.

The best of you are also very capable with your speech. Articulate, informed, well-spoken. You're fighters, and you're the kind of people I hope are there when the next jihadi or active shooter nutball makes his appearance. (Assuming I can't be there first.)

If you're a fighter, if you expect of yourself the ability to deal with violence in whatever form it comes to you, then you damn well better practice this stuff.

Your eloquence should be has sharp as your marksmanship...if not sharper.

Go.

gssc
05-08-2018, 02:38 PM
It's nothing to do with underachieving. My comment about the different playing field is that a unformed on duty LEO has a different mission to me. He or she is employed by the Government and is expected to pursue and detain criminals, has to operate within a department's policies etc. That is a very different context to me. I don't want to think through that lens.


> What you do need to do is think. And that is the point of all of this.

I am thinking and that starts with why am I pursing someone through a gas station? The store robbery is grounded in the context for me.


I think we just have our wires crossed on the communication here. We need to lift, BJJ etc. Cops don't have super physical or tactical powers that I cannot aspire too.

Gabriel Suarez
05-08-2018, 02:41 PM
It's nothing to do with underachieving. My comment about the different playing field is that a unformed on duty LEO has a different mission to me. He or she is employed by the Government and is expected to pursue and detain criminals, has to operate within a department's policies etc. That is a very different context to me. I don't want to think through that lens.


> What you do need to do is think. And that is the point of all of this.

I am thinking and that starts with why am I pursing someone through a gas station?

Then never mind GSSC....I have nothing of value to give you...I am sorry to have wasted your time.

***

Now...the rest of you...get your brains working and explain your actions.

Greg Nichols
05-08-2018, 02:49 PM
Tactics and equipment may change due to function, mission set, or job. How in the flying dog fornication would your job effect The ARTICULATION:
noun
noun: articulation


1.
the formation of clear and distinct sounds in speech.
"the articulation of vowels and consonants"



the action of putting into words an idea or feeling of a specified type.
plural noun: articulations
"it would involve the articulation of a theory of the just war"

Brent Yamamoto
05-08-2018, 02:53 PM
I am thinking and that starts with why am I pursing someone through a gas station?

Yes. But it is an EXERCISE in practicing your articulation skills. Just because it is in a different context from you is no reason not to take value from it.

Use this to your advantage. Imagine a scenario where you shot someone and the cop asks "Why are you pursuing someone through a gas station?" never mind it's not something you would have done...the exercise is in articulating the story ANYWAY. The more reps you put in, the stronger you'll be. The more circumstances you have to describe, the better you'll be in the moment of truth when you have to describe a situation you've never imagined before.

Guys, thinking includes the ability to put yourself in other shoes. It's good, necessary in fact, to recognize different contexts, and it's ok to recognize a situation might not apply to you. BUT USE THE DAMN OPPORTUNITY ANYWAY.

How many videos are there of civilian shootings? How many videos are there of LEO shootings? If you want more practice, you might want to take advantage of any opportunity that comes up.

chad newton
05-08-2018, 02:54 PM
The suspect ran a red light at Hollywood Blvd and N Highland. I immediately went code 3 heading southbound Highland Blvd. I pulled behind the suspect, he then proceeded to not stop the vehicle. On the load speaker I repeatedly yelled for him to pull over. He then
Made an evasive maneuver right, west bound Sunset Blvd. As soon as I turned the corner he hit the right hand curb. His car wasn’t moving, so I pulled up to the drivers side rear corner of his vehicle. Driver was already exiting through passengers side door, casually walking into the chevron station. I immediately started giving commands for him to place his hand where I could see them and get on the ground. He was non compliant and continued walking in the opposite direction. I circled around both cars drawn in still giving demands. He put both hands in the air but still walking the other direction, again non compliant behavior and body language suggested he were hiding something or going to flee again. Then I saw his right hand go towards his pocket and sudden movement towards my direction, and it looked to be that he was going for a firearm with intent to shoot me. I had no choice but to shoot. There were other people at the gas station other then me that may have been killed or I injured if I didn’t act when I did.

Christopher Calhoun
05-08-2018, 03:01 PM
I really like this thread.

Out of the box thinking for those of us that are not law enforcement, yet giving us the opportunity gain value from a thread whether our statements are utterly comical or otherwise.

I take it as a class of sorts if I may. I get something wrong, that doesnít necessarily mean Iím stupid or itís everyone against me. It means I have something I can improve on, learn from, and build a platform for which to eventually conduct myself. A takeaway to gain real knowledge and feedback without (in this moment) negativity impacting my life...and THAT is why I enjoy coming to this forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

chad newton
05-08-2018, 03:04 PM
It's nothing to do with underachieving. My comment about the different playing field is that a unformed on duty LEO has a different mission to me. He or she is employed by the Government and is expected to pursue and detain criminals, has to operate within a department's policies etc. That is a very different context to me. I don't want to think through that lens.


> What you do need to do is think. And that is the point of all of this.

I am thinking and that starts with why am I pursing someone through a gas station? The store robbery is grounded in the context for me.


I think we just have our wires crossed on the communication here. We need to lift, BJJ etc. Cops don't have super physical or tactical powers that I cannot aspire too.

Use your imagination bro.

chad newton
05-08-2018, 03:07 PM
I want to add, there really is no wrong answer since we are doing this for education.

Brent Yamamoto
05-08-2018, 03:08 PM
And practicing articulation skills even for situations you don't think apply to you will help you anticipate questions you will hear and objections to your story.

If you knew you were going to get into an unavoidable gunfight next week...how much practice would you do between now and then? How many draws while you bust off the X, how many dry presses, how many visits to the range? How many different skills might you try to practice, given you know a fight is coming but not what the fight will be?

You have only one chance to get the fight right.

You also have only one chance to get the articulation right.

How many repetitions would you like under your belt before you have that once chance to tell your story and avoid getting arrested for murder? How many situations would you like to have experienced before your once chance?

We spend a lot of time preparing to fight. SI has focused a lot of energy in that arena. Now we're trying to spend some time preparing for the aftermath.

Gabriel Suarez
05-08-2018, 03:23 PM
If you cannot use your words and imagination, you are as useless as if you couldn't shoot.

There...I said it.

chad newton
05-08-2018, 04:43 PM
Like my Grandpa would say,” useless like tits on a bull”. He had a way with words...

Gabriel Suarez
05-08-2018, 05:36 PM
https://i.imgflip.com/1s3m58.jpg?a423408

The Tiger is good at killing, but it is the antelope that does the talking

gssc
05-08-2018, 05:59 PM
If you cannot use your words and imagination, you are as useless as if you couldn't shoot.

If you cannot discuss without insulting and name calling.... Bye.

Gabriel Suarez
05-08-2018, 06:01 PM
Some one just got triggered.

chad newton
05-08-2018, 06:09 PM
Some one just got triggered.
I don’t know why, not being right is something that happens to everyone but me.:)

Greg Nichols
05-08-2018, 06:26 PM
If you cannot discuss without insulting and name calling.... Bye.

It's only insulting if it's true. You've been around since 2009 and still can't relate? Bye Felicia

chad newton
05-08-2018, 06:33 PM
You didn’t even say anything, when did pushing someone’s pride become an insult not motivator??? Too damn sensitive, wouldn’t make it 10 min being a cop or construction worker...

Gabriel Suarez
05-08-2018, 07:45 PM
Well my patience for the sensitive is extremely low. Notice that my statement was generally directed, (not "gssc...you personally are useless").

What I said is true and I will say it again to anyone that thinks they will shoot-shut up-wait for their attorney : IF YOU CANNOT ARTICULATE WHAT YOU DID WITH YOUR WORDS, YOU ARE AS USELESS AS IF YOU COULDN'T SHOOT.

If that is anyone in particular...feel free to be offended take your ball and go home.

45Smashemflat
05-08-2018, 08:42 PM
Wow... Chill out a bit folks.

Good learnings to be had by those who have been there.

I see a guy running, drawing, obviously threatening those pursuing. As a civvy two pumps over, not sure I have liberty to ambush him, but I would.

Officer, I saw the guy drawing down on you. I felt he had the drop on you and I could stop further injury. So, I took this safe position and engaged. Im a bit wigged out right now. His pistol is pretty close to his right hand, there on the ground, see? Let me sit here and catch my breath. Are all of you ok?

Just a thought?

Papa
05-08-2018, 08:55 PM
Gotta think outside that box. No one expected a blow by blow of what was depicted onscreen. Otherwise I would have written:

"I initiated a traffic stop in the wrong place, failed to control the subjects in a stolen car, got suckered into pursuing one of the subjects on foot, and was shot while I was unprepared to return fire. Oh, and the bad guy got away.

This is the County's fault for failing to train me correctly and I'm so traumatized I can't work again so I'm bringing suit against the County for six million dollars."

And 45Smashemflat, nicely done.

barnetmill
05-08-2018, 09:32 PM
Let us get back the scenario. Beside shooting, should the officer in this case have been moving also the moment that the suspect started to walk backwards to cover. We all here can shoot while on the move.

Gabriel Suarez
05-09-2018, 06:42 AM
I think that to keep the focus on making your actions justified we need to focus on the rationale for that separately from tactics.

Yes, often times police tactics are less than optimal...and don't even ask about civilian tactics. More often than not, there is a very rudimentary training in that and then it is all "go learn on the job" sort of thing. Given that most officers do not get involved in shootings regularly and often prevail in typical confrontations by sheer numbers, or by fortuitous outcomes, tactics to not get shot, or conversely to work for the shot are often unlearned or ignored.

NV28
05-09-2018, 08:05 AM
The synopsis : The "articulation" should be the dead p.o.s. used the gas pump as cover to "try" set an ambush.Whether I'm the Officer On Scene, a civilian pumping gas 30 yards away, or a civilian that was the object of the dead p.o.s.'s attempted ambush.


Now the specific eloquent articulation....I need to work on.

Gabriel Suarez
05-09-2018, 08:50 AM
The tiger is good at killing
But the antelope does the talking

NV28
05-09-2018, 09:34 AM
ME; Officer; I had pulled up to pump # 1. Right where my car is now.I had gotten out of my car to get gas.I had not even gotten my credit card out when that (dead pos) walked by my car.He walked between my car and pump #2 just glaring at me.He stopped flipped me the bird.Then put his hands in the air and walked in the same direction and yelled Don't Shoot, Don't Shoot as he continued to walk with his hands up.
When he walked behind the gas pumps and stopped.He was partially hidden from view... I I moved behind my car.I realized his back was to me, his hands in his front waist and then he turned back in my direction.I watched him as I moved behind my car.That is when a saw his gun.And he ran from behind the pumps toward the front of my car shooting at me..He shot at me first.When I saw his gun I drew my Glock.He ran around the passenger side of my car shooting at me...I ...I had to shot thru my windows.That ..ass hole was trying to kill me for no reason at all.Auh officer may a please ..auh please sit by the gas, the pump ..auh I just need to catch my breath,...I did give you my lic & my...my LTC card?


This is my first try speaking Antelope.

Gabriel Suarez
05-09-2018, 10:08 AM
Not bad...not bad at all...see kids...we are making headway.

Huntindoc
05-09-2018, 12:10 PM
ME; Officer; I had pulled up to pump # 1. Right where my car is now.I had gotten out of my car to get gas.I had not even gotten my credit card out when that (dead pos) walked by my car.He walked between my car and pump #2 just glaring at me.He stopped flipped me the bird.Then put his hands in the air and walked in the same direction and yelled Don't Shoot, Don't Shoot as he continued to walk with his hands up.
When he walked behind the gas pumps and stopped.He was partially hidden from view... I I moved behind my car.I realized his back was to me, his hands in his front waist and then he turned back in my direction.I watched him as I moved behind my car.That is when a saw his gun.And he ran from behind the pumps toward the front of my car shooting at me..He shot at me first.When I saw his gun I drew my Glock.He ran around the passenger side of my car shooting at me...I ...I had to shot thru my windows.That ..ass hole was trying to kill me for no reason at all.Auh officer may a please ..auh please sit by the gas, the pump ..auh I just need to catch my breath,...I did give you my lic & my...my LTC card?


This is my first try speaking Antelope.

NV,
I like your response. I have no history as a LEO so feel free to tell me to F off but I would offer one critique. Try to not practice calling your assailant a POS or asshole or any other derogatory term. The reason being that you are more likely then in the heat of the moment to refer to them as a "Nigger", "Mexican POS", "Fucking Muslim POS" or some other racial or ethnic slur. Suddenly what would otherwise be a very reasonable person defending themself now is a biggot who wasn't just minding there own business but probably started the whole thing by engaging in a racial insult with the attacker. Does that make sense? Think about what some other observer is going to say. Remember that the attacker was not alone in the initial story. You gave your side. Now they ask the attacker's partner who tells them:

Hey, my friend was walking by and asked this dude what time he had and whitey over there yells back calling us "___________ POS". Then when my friend starts walking over to give him a piece of his mind for disrespecting us that dude pulled out a gun and ran around his car and started shooting at him.

That you already used some slur to describe your attacker suddenly looks much worse. Maybe you were involved in provoking the attack.

My .02 but I think if we are practicing verbal skills we should practice keeping any insulting language out of it.

Gabriel Suarez
05-09-2018, 12:21 PM
NV,
I like your response. I have no history as a LEO so feel free to tell me to F off but I would offer one critique. Try to not practice calling your assailant a POS or asshole or any other derogatory term. The reason being that you are more likely then in the heat of the moment to refer to them as a "Nigger", "Mexican POS", "Fucking Muslim POS" or some other racial or ethnic slur. Suddenly what would otherwise be a very reasonable person defending themself now is a biggot who wasn't just minding there own business but probably started the whole thing by engaging in a racial insult with the attacker. Does that make sense? Think about what some other observer is going to say. Remember that the attacker was not alone in the initial story. You gave your side. Now they ask the attacker's partner who tells them:

Hey, my friend was walking by and asked this dude what time he had and whitey over there yells back calling us "___________ POS". Then when my friend starts walking over to give him a piece of his mind for disrespecting us that dude pulled out a gun and ran around his car and started shooting at him.

That you already used some slur to describe your attacker suddenly looks much worse. Maybe you were involved in provoking the attack.

My .02 but I think if we are practicing verbal skills we should practice keeping any insulting language out of it.

YUP!

NV28
05-09-2018, 12:39 PM
NV,
I like your response. I have no history as a LEO so feel free to tell me to F off but I would offer one critique. Try to not practice calling your assailant a POS or asshole or any other derogatory term. The reason being that you are more likely then in the heat of the moment to refer to them as a "Nigger", "Mexican POS", "Fucking Muslim POS" or some other racial or ethnic slur. Suddenly what would otherwise be a very reasonable person defending themself now is a biggot who wasn't just minding there own business but probably started the whole thing by engaging in a racial insult with the attacker. Does that make sense? Think about what some other observer is going to say. Remember that the attacker was not alone in the initial story. You gave your side. Now they ask the attacker's partner who tells them:

Hey, my friend was walking by and asked this dude what time he had and whitey over there yells back calling us "___________ POS". Then when my friend starts walking over to give him a piece of his mind for disrespecting us that dude pulled out a gun and ran around his car and started shooting at him.

That you already used some slur to describe your attacker suddenly looks much worse. Maybe you were involved in provoking the attack.

My .02 but I think if we are practicing verbal skills we should practice keeping any insulting language out of it.

( ) = fill in the blank. But good point.What should we call them? With out sounding rehearsed. :thinking:

Heading out to work. Will catch up tomorrow am.

Randy Harris
05-09-2018, 01:30 PM
It is all about CYA...Can You Articulate? If you can't explain it then you come across as a child who just broke something and either refuses to say anything or who says they "don't know why they did it". That is NOT how you want to come across.....

On the other hand if you can articulate why you did what you did (and you are not otherwise involved in illegal activity at the time) then you are far more likely to sleep in your own bed.... If you CAN'T articulate WHY you did something then you probably had no business doing it to begin with..... "Just because" is not a legit answer ...use your words. The whole "don't say anything and wait for your lawyer" is advice given to GUILTY people so as not to further incriminate themselves.

Huntindoc
05-09-2018, 03:31 PM
( ) = fill in the blank. But good point.What should we call them? With out sounding rehearsed. :thinking:

Heading out to work. Will catch up tomorrow am.

I would use "Guy", "Man", "Girl". Simple, descriptive, not judgemental. Any adjectives would also be simple: "Big", "Tall", "Short or shorter". If describing someone who left/ran off, then add "White, black, hispanic, asian, middle eastern looking etc. Wearing ____________ ".

Huntindoc
05-09-2018, 03:59 PM
I have 2 ways I was looking at this video. First as someone who was witnessing this as it unfolded on the video but intervened. And then had to give my statement to the police.

Officer Smith, thank God you are here. My name is Allen ___________. I am a family medicine physician. I work at the ____________ clinic here in town. I was pumping gas at the last pump down there. That is my truck. When I heard the other officer keep yelling at this man to stop and put his hands up. "Stop! Stop! I said stop!" The guy the officer was yelling at put his hands up but kept walking until he was hidden with the pump between him and the other officer. I was hiding behind my pump watching. As soon as the guy was behind the pump he put his hands down and reached under his jacket. It looked like he pulled a gun. He then crouched down and had is hands together in front of him like he was holding and pointing a gun. He sped up coming around the pump to attack the officer that was yelling at him. As soon as I saw him reach under his jacket I knew "He is going to kill that Police officer". I didn't have to think much more. I knew I had to do something. I take care of too many police officers and their families to stand by and watch one be killed and do nothing. I have a LTC so I drew my gun and came around the pump to my right side and I fired at the man attacking the officer. Unfortunately, the attacker did fire a shot at the officer before I could stop him. I think there was another man with the attacker but he ran off in that direction. Everything happened so fast, I don't know exactly how many times I fired so I reloaded my gun in case that other man came back and attacked me while I was going to help that first officer that was shot. I still have my weapon on my right hip. You can take possession of it. After it appeared the attacker was down, I grabbed my first aid kit from the truck and went to help the first officer that was attacked. He was shot in his ____. Please tell the paramedics that I did __(medical procedure/quick clot etc.)___ to help him. I placed the tourniquet at _________ time. My heart is still racing and I can't seem to catch my breath. Do you think I could go to the hospital too?

Gabriel Suarez
05-09-2018, 05:05 PM
If you are LE...current or former...call the antagonist "the suspect".

If you are not, call them "the robber", "the shooter", etc. Subtle...but we are here to wield words.

What does doing this do for us?

Anyone?

Huntindoc
05-09-2018, 05:23 PM
It puts the correct context on the encounter from the beginning. It says "I am the victim" and they were "the perpetrator" without actually saying it. Nice. Thanks Gabe.

Brent Yamamoto
05-09-2018, 05:28 PM
Every word that we Utter helps paint a picture. The better the words, the better the picture.

Jim Miller
05-09-2018, 06:11 PM
Every word that we Utter helps paint a picture. The better the words, the better the picture.

Absolutely correct. You must paint the picture so a blind man can see it. Before you do this, however, you must have your emotions under control so you can hold the brush steady.

Jim Miller
ISA 6:8

chad newton
05-09-2018, 06:32 PM
To paint the best picture that you are in fact the victim....

Huntindoc
05-09-2018, 07:25 PM
Second perspective. I wrote last year about an incident at a gas station in Houston that happened to me on my drive home from taking Red Dot Combat Pistol with Jon Payne. (Really the absolute worst timing on my assailent's part thanks to Jon's excellent instruction.) So this second one is a first person perspective and true up to a point.

Officer Smith, thank God you are here. My name is Allen ______. I am a Family Medicine physician from _______,Tx. I have a LTC and I stopped for gas here on my way home from a class in Orange, TX. I had just come back outside from using the restroom and was finishing pumping gas when the robber came from around the front of the truck quickly and purposefully closing the distance with me. He startled me rushing in like that. He said "Hey I want to ask you something." I knew his behavior and body language was all wrong. Someone who really needs help would stand back away and try to get my attention. I've had to ask for help jump starting my car plenty of times and I would never rush someone while telling them I need help. So I quickly turned my back to the pump and glanced in my windows to see if someone was coming up behind me. I grew up south of Houston and my parents still live there. I've heard about lots of attacks that happen in parking lots and gas stations where one person gets the victim's attention while another guy attacks from behind. I thrust my open left hand up in a halt gesture toward the robber and shouted "I can't help you!". With my right hand, which was away from him, I grasp the pistol I had on my right hip but did not draw it or show it to him. The Robber then put both of his hands up and said "No! No! No!"

(Now from the video) Initially he started to back away and I thought "Thank God!" But I saw that he turned and was quickly coming around the pump and soon would be behind me. I then ran around the back of my vehicle to put it between us hoping I was wrong but I drew my gun. As he came around the pump I could see he had his hands grasp in front of him and he appeared to be holding and aiming a gun. He was coming to kill me but I wasn't where he thought I was any longer. I knew I didn't have any other choice. I couldn't get back in my vehicle or even into the gas station without him shooting me. So in that split second I was forced to shoot him to save myself. It happened so fast that I don't know how many times I fired. I also still didn't know if he was truly alone so I reloaded. I used my phone to call 911 and ask for an ambulance for the robber. My gun is still on my right hip if you need to take possession of it. My heart is racing and I still feel short of breath. Do you think I could go to the hospital too?

For Gabe and others with more knowledge- Would the word "Attacker" or "my attacker" work in the place of "the robber" in the instance?

Gabriel Suarez
05-09-2018, 08:27 PM
The attacker may be ok...but from a police pov, few attacks have no intent or purpose. What do you think he was there to do.

In my mind I am thinking attempted robbery. The robber approached me with stealth. I didnt see him until he was right there...I held up my hand and told him to get away and leave me alone. I have heard about brutal gas station robberies that start just like this and was afraid this was one of them.

Like that.

Robber
Shooter
Kidnapper
Rapist

That it was an attempt (you happened to him) doesnt change what he is, right?

Huntindoc
05-09-2018, 08:41 PM
Got it. Thanks Gabe!

NV28
05-11-2018, 05:30 AM
Thanks Gabe.

Ghost1976
05-12-2018, 01:02 AM
I can definitely see the point of not using racial slurs and such, because it's just handing any potential prosecutor some very lethal ammunition, given our hypersensitive culture. But wouldn't it be reasonable for most people to say something like: "..and then that asshole over there popped out of nowhere and pointed his gun at me...". I've almost always instinctively used "that asshole" when referring to the other person when reporting a fight, reporting a stolen laptop, reporting on an accident caused by "that asshole", reporting a guy who tried to draw on me (though I got the drop on him, luckily no need to shoot), etc. It seems benign enough a word to use while also being natural coming out of someone who's very upset.

NV28
05-12-2018, 06:45 AM
I can definitely see the point of not using racial slurs and such, because it's just handing any potential prosecutor some very lethal ammunition, given our hypersensitive culture. But wouldn't it be reasonable for most people to say something like: "..and then that asshole over there popped out of nowhere and pointed his gun at me...". I've almost always instinctively used "that asshole" when referring to the other person when reporting a fight, reporting a stolen laptop, reporting on an accident caused by "that asshole", reporting a guy who tried to draw on me (though I got the drop on him, luckily no need to shoot), etc. It seems benign enough a word to use while also being natural coming out of someone who's very upset.



What language would a Gentleman Killer use? Maybe that's the question to ask.