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sfc
05-02-2018, 09:29 AM
Is there no consideration for the Arsenal SAM7k?

It seems the 7.62 round would be a compelling argument for considering the SAM7k. What am I missing?

Brent Yamamoto
05-02-2018, 09:42 AM
Guys, carry whatever you want. But consider how you will carry it, what its role is, what are the likely circumstances, what are the tradeoffs.

A pick up truck and a motorcycle will both get you places, but each has different strengths.

An AK pistol is not worth a damn unless it has a brace on it. (We’ve written a lot about this in the past). The brace effectively makes it an SBR. Which is great. But IMO it’s a completely different category than a PDW.

Compare weight and size. If an SBR fits your needs, fantastic. If you need something smaller, the PDW is a better choice.

Brent Yamamoto
05-02-2018, 09:49 AM
You can carry a PDW in a much smaller bag than an SBR. It’s much lighter. It’s much easier to bring to bear in a vehicle or any other constraines space.

A rifle caliber of course hits harder but it comes at the expense of size, weight, and “visual footprint” (an AK stands out a lot more than a Glock PDW...consider how easily you can minimize the view of a PDW vs an AK when officers arrive).

I have a Sig 556 pistol, essentially a Swiss AK SBR. It’s a great weapon. But it has a different job than my PDW.

sfc
05-02-2018, 09:53 AM
Alright. So I've been with Suarez for a long time, trained with him in CA in some of his first Active Shooter classes, and I've spent a chunk of change with SI over the years. In the past 5 years I've had my head down because of business issues that had to be dealt with. But most of my focus was on pistol work.

That all being said, I'm working through getting myself back up to speed and this idea of having a pistol based platform interests me. So what I hear you saying is that if I put a folder on a SAM7k, that would make it like an SBR, which is different than a PDW. Is there a reason to go with a pure SBR as opposed to getting something like a SAM7k, or glock PDW for that matter? It seems to me, why pay the tax if you can get the same effect? Am I totally off base?

sfc
05-02-2018, 09:54 AM
You can carry a PDW in a much smaller bag than an SBR. It’s much lighter. It’s much easier to bring to bear in a vehicle or any other constraines space.

A rifle caliber of course hits harder but it comes at the expense of size, weight, and “visual footprint” (an AK stands out a lot more than a Glock PDW...consider how easily you can minimize the view of a PDW vs an AK when officers arrive).

I have a Sig 556 pistol, essentially a Swiss AK SBR. It’s a great weapon. But it has a different job than my PDW.

Posted my response before I saw this... thank you.

sfc
05-02-2018, 10:04 AM
You can carry a PDW in a much smaller bag than an SBR. It’s much lighter. It’s much easier to bring to bear in a vehicle or any other constraines space.

A rifle caliber of course hits harder but it comes at the expense of size, weight, and “visual footprint” (an AK stands out a lot more than a Glock PDW...consider how easily you can minimize the view of a PDW vs an AK when officers arrive).

I have a Sig 556 pistol, essentially a Swiss AK SBR. It’s a great weapon. But it has a different job than my PDW.

As a follow up post.... So you're saying that the mobility and ability to "conceal" is the main argument for the PDW. Yes?

So what's the benefit of the PDW, with no folder, over just pulling out your Glock and taking care of business?

Brent Yamamoto
05-02-2018, 10:13 AM
So what I hear you saying is that if I put a folder on a SAM7k, that would make it like an SBR, which is different than a PDW. Is there a reason to go with a pure SBR as opposed to getting something like a SAM7k, or glock PDW for that matter? It seems to me, why pay the tax if you can get the same effect? Am I totally off base?

The pistol brace pretty effectively makes it unnecessary to SBR an AR or AK. Get the pistol variant, put a brace on it and for all intents and purposes you have an SBR with none of the legal headache. It's a great choice if you want a small rifle.

Both an SBR and a Glock PDW are PROACTIVE tools...you grab these in situations where you have time to get something more than the pistol that's on you. In that sense they are similar. But I still view these as a fulfilling a different role. It's a lot easier and handier for me to carry a PDW in a bag from my vehicle to another location, vs. an SBR. My AR pistol is pretty light and trim...but it's still heavier and bigger, and requires a bigger bag than my PDW.

I don't carry my PDW on me often, but it does ride in a laptop bag so on those times where I'm going somewhere with a laptop I can actually carry it with me. That's rare, but I can actually do it if I want. Not so much with an SBR, it's way too big of a pain in the ass.

chad newton
05-02-2018, 10:17 AM
I don’t know, anymore I’m leaning towards the brutality of a tac 14. The totality of that small package seems to be a no brainer....

chad newton
05-02-2018, 10:19 AM
I still like the idea of a trunk gun as well, a small ar or ak would serve that purpose very well.

apamburn
05-02-2018, 10:29 AM
As a follow up post.... So you're saying that the mobility and ability to "conceal" is the main argument for the PDW. Yes?

So what's the benefit of the PDW, with no folder, over just pulling out your Glock and taking care of business?

One word: BLOG.

PDW: An Old Concept Whose Time Returned (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/02/an-old-concept-whose-time-returned.html)

PDW: When a 9mm beats a 5.56mm (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/11/when-a-9mm-beats-a-556.html)

PDW: The Stocked Pistol Revisited (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2014/10/the-stocked-pistol-revisited.html)

Glock PDWs are:

highly portable
lightweight
discreet
low recoil
low flash
can be effectively suppressed

SBR rifles / braced rifle caliber pistols are:

larger and heavier than Glock PDW
offer greater penetration / better ballistics than Glock PDW
have stronger recoil and flash than Glock PDW
cannot be as effectively suppressed as Glock PDW

---

The benefit of the Glock PDW over a Glock in hand is additional recoil control and stability afforded by additional points of contact.

Case in point: My mother with slight tremors, who hadn't shot in years, successfully landed shot after shot on a 55 gal drum at close to 100 yds with Glock PDW. Would have been impossible with pistol in hand.

Now translate that to someone that is proficient with firearms and you get my point.

Brent Yamamoto
05-02-2018, 10:32 AM
As a follow up post.... So you're saying that the mobility and ability to "conceal" is the main argument for the PDW. Yes?

So what's the benefit of the PDW, with no folder, over just pulling out your Glock and taking care of business?

Mobility and concealability are a couple of factors. Noise is another...a suppressed Glock is a lot quieter than any suppressed SBR. Manual of arms is another consideration...essentially it's exactly the same as your EDC Glock. It's also very easy to hand to another family member, it's easier to use and much less punishing to fire indoors than an SBR.

Using a shotgun for home defense is an excellent choice...but consider other family members and the precision that may be required in home defense situations. A PDW may be a better choice depending on circumstances.

Consider armor...head shots are very easy with a PDW. I can make headshots with an SBR too but everything about the PDW is just easier.


Now if you're at the mall and there's an active shooter, if you decide to engage it's most likely going to be your pistol. (Realistically it's going to be really rare that we'd actually have a PDW on us.) But imagine you drive up to your kids school and there's an active shooter event...that's a case where a PDW in your vehicle makes a lot of sense. Or if you have a place of business where you can have the PDW on hand...a protracted event may give you a reasonable opportunity to bring the PDW to bear.

Just for a few examples.

sfc
05-02-2018, 10:52 AM
One word: BLOG.

Glock PDWs are:

highly portable
lightweight
discreet
low recoil
low flash
can be effectively suppressed

SBR rifles / braced rifle caliber pistols are:

larger and heavier than Glock PDW
offer greater penetration / better ballistics than Glock PDW
have stronger recoil and flash than Glock PDW
cannot be as effectively suppressed as Glock PDW



Great post. Thank you. And thank you for the links.

It seems like the ability to suppress noise and flash is a common benefit. Is this to aid with hearing protection? Or is it primarily to reduce attention to the situation?

I used to put 500+ rounds down range every week. It's been a while since I've done that, but my ability to shoot generally isn't an issue. Controlling recoil isn't an issue - at this point in my journey I'm not very conscience of the recoil - I'm just getting things done. I'm mostly thinking about the right tool for the right situation and I can't think of close quarters situation that I would most likely be in, whether at a gas station, convenience store, etc... that I wouldn't be comfortable dealing with it with my standard carry.

But there are situations: church, travel, in-house protection, etc... where I could see a greater/quicker stopping power and possible quicker shots at longer distances (because all of us have taken the 100+ yards shots with our pistols, but how quickly can we get on target and punch that hole) would be helpful.

Thanks again... this is all very helpful to think this through. I appreciate you.

Brent Yamamoto
05-02-2018, 10:58 AM
No matter how good you are with a pistol, the additional points of contact that the brace affords will make you better.

Of course the situation will dictate whether you'll have the PDW or SBR within reach, and whether or not you'll have time to reach for it.

sfc
05-02-2018, 11:03 AM
head shots are very easy with a PDW. I can make headshots with an SBR too but everything about the PDW is just easier.


Now if you're at the mall and there's an active shooter, if you decide to engage it's most likely going to be your pistol. (Realistically it's going to be really rare that we'd actually have a PDW on us.) But imagine you drive up to your kids school and there's an active shooter event...that's a case where a PDW in your vehicle makes a lot of sense. Or if you have a place of business where you can have the PDW on hand...a protracted event may give you a reasonable opportunity to bring the PDW to bear.

Just for a few examples.

Thank you. I appreciate your time giving me your thoughts.

Your above thoughts particularly jumped out to me. And I guess your last paragraph is kind of where I'm landing... it seems that for most everyday life, my carry is going to be deployed if I have to engage something. But there are other situation that you've pointed out where I might want something I can shoulder for quicker target acquisition on a more consistent basis. Something like an SBR or PDW.

Which brings me to my one question, after reading your last post: Are you saying that "the PDW is just easier" because of both the configuration abilities (suppression - flash and sound, etc...) AND the manual of arms... or is there some more to it being easier? Because it seems to me that once it's up and engaging, the only difference would be the stopping power and distance.

Thank you again. I appreciate you.

ShopMonkey
05-02-2018, 11:15 AM
regardless of platform neither is designed to perform or preferred for engagement past 100yds. Can they? of course, we do it every pistol class without the PDW brace, it's a moot point. You do you. Your use of the word easier does come off as a negative connotation, but i can assure you ease of access and ease of use is not the same as EASIER. The point is why sink funds in to a platform you're either A not intimately familiar with or B rendered obsolete in one form of another, be it bulk of extra ammo by either mag size or weight, carry size, or signature (flash/noise). Take into consideration, how many extra mags for an AK can you stuff on your person? now check your mobility. How many glock 15-33rd mags can you comfortably carry? Its not a matter of one is easier, its about efficiency.
I've carried a large number of weapons over the years, and i can definitely attest to the ease of carrying 12 mags for an A4 over 8 for an m82a1. or even 6 glock mags to 4 ar mags. The point is to give yourself every advantage to win a fight

Brent Yamamoto
05-02-2018, 11:17 AM
I cannot answer the question better than the blog link that apamburn posted above.

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/11/when-a-9mm-beats-a-556.html

after reading the blog posts, you will just have to consider what makes the most sense for your needs and the situations you you’ll most likely face. What equipment do you intend to carry, and how will you carry it. A weapon always staged in one place for home defense? A weapon that’s more easily carried and concealed to different locations? A dedicated vehicle gun? Scenarios like the korean shop owners in the LA riots? Etc. etc.

Sometimes a rifle or SBR is clearly more desirable. Sometimes a PDW is more desirable. Other times it’s a judgement call, and all kinds of considerations, wants and needs come into play. That stuff is all up to you to decide.

I can tell you that I have a lot of rifles, and most if them have a role. I would certainly pick up one given the right circumstances. But the stuff that gets the most use these days is my EDC pistol, my PDW, and my Stakeout shotgun.

Everyone’s needs differ. The important thing is to clearly understand what your needs/wants are, and then choose accordingly.

Gabriel Suarez
05-02-2018, 11:29 AM
(http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/11/when-a-9mm-beats-a-556.html)https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/11/590x/spoon-fed-babies-more-likely-overweight-obese-810436.jpg
WHEN A 9MM BEATS A 5.56 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/11/when-a-9mm-beats-a-556.html)

Monday, November 27, 2017 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/11/when-a-9mm-beats-a-556.html)

http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c9374e9f970b-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c9374e9f970b-popup) At the risk of starting another caliber war, I want to answer a question that several members have asked.

In essence: Why would we pick a 9mm like the Glock PDW or an AR-15 in 9mm when we can have a 5.56x45? Well...it is a valid question and I will give my perspective on this based on 32 years of experience going into harm's way as well as teaching those who go into harm's way.

Every weapon is a special weapon with a specific application. There are no weapons that handle every possible combat task equally well, and any choice is an exercise in compromise. While we all have personal preferences, the professional, or professionally-minded enthusiast should not have a "favorite weapon". Rather he should be skilled at a variety of weapons so that given some forethought and planning, he can select the best tool for the job.

Now lets recall the concept of the PDW and its pseudo-official definition:

A personal defense weapon (PDW) is a class of compact magazine-fed, self-loading, hybrid between a submachine gun and a carbine. The name describes the type's original role: as a compact but powerful defensive weapon that can be carried by troops behind the front line such as military engineers, drivers, artillery crews or administrative staff. These soldiers may be at risk of encountering the enemy, but rarely enough that a long-barrel weapon would be an unnecessary burden during their normal duties. Because of their light weight and controllability, they have also been used by special forces and by police units.

One point is very important over the others and the decisive point when selecting a weapon to add to the daily-carried handgun.

"These soldiers may be at risk of encountering the enemy, but rarely enough that a long-barrel weapon would be an unnecessary burden during their normal duties."

It will be far easier to go about one's daily urban life with a light and extremely compact PDW than an 5.56 rifle. Again, if the Islmaic Jihad has issued a fatwah on you and has dispatched a bevy of ISIS hitmen to take you out, you would be justified in going about your day in armor, driving a fortified vehicle with a Magpul D-60 equipped M4 at your side.

Those not is such a situation will immediately find such steps impossible to maintain.
http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d2c19b9a970c-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d2c19b9a970c-popup)

1). Weight. It is not simply about being short and compact as even an HK-91 can be made that way. Weight is a consideration. A heavy weapon is harder to carry, more cumbersome to deploy and slower to use. Thus more likely to be left behind out of convenience. A 9mm PDW is far lighter than any M4 SBR. A Glock PDW is perhaps the most compact of all, specially if equipped with a folding hinge. A compact AR-15 in 9mm, such as the Angstadt UDP-9 (in my opinion, the best of the breed) is almost as small as a Glock PDW and far lighter and handier than any 5.56. Thus both are more likely to be on hand and to be deployed.

2). Convenience. Aside from the weight issue is one of convenience. Having less to bring, less to remember and less to train is a good thing. Being required to stay on top of the manual of arms of a different platform is not a huge problem, but one that needs to be addressed. With the Glock PDW you have the same manual of arms...almost, as your everyday carry handgun. If you have spent a great deal of time on the M4, a 9mm version is an excellent choice. All the better if it takes the same magazines as your EDC Pistol.

3). Greater efficiency. This is a catch-all category where things other than caliber fit in. Some will question the point of adding a stock at all since they fancy themselves great pistoleers. Well, I suspect they have not worked with a stocked handgun. The addition of a stock does a number of things to a Glock. It allows for greater accuracy. Look, we shoot steels at 100 yards, and dimes at ten yards, routinely with our carry guns and I will tell you that doing that is easier with a PDW. Dramatically easier. It allows for faster shot to shot recovery. There is nothing to argue about here as you have at least four points of contact with the PDW as opposed to just two with a handgun. More points of contact equals more control equals faster shooting.

http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c9374eb0970b-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c9374eb0970b-popup)

4). The caliber issue. This is and will remain a controversial point but there are situations where the 9mm is preferable to the 5.56. Unless one has actually fired a non-suppressed 5.56 indoors, with unprotected hearing, he will not think this is a big deal. Will your brain leak out of your ears and all your future earnings devoted to Miracle Ear? No, but the results will not be inconsequential either. And having several suppressors/silencers I am well aware of the possibility of adding one to the rifle, but then you have the issue of weight and length...again.

The 9mm on the other hand does not have either of these concerns in the close quarters realm (the place where these weapons are intended for). An non-suppressed 9mm indoors will not be overlooked, but it is substantially less objectionable than a 5.56. And a suppressed 9mm will allow you to eliminate a crew of home invaders without waking the kids.

The argument about penetration is not as important today with the proliferation of rifle plate armor. In the past one could argue that the 5.56 was a better choice since it would go through body armor like a hot knife through butter. Now, with the availability of armor that is more "rifle proof", that argument doesn't hold as much weight. And yes, such armor is available and prevalent - all we need to do is examine the recent terrorist events in Dallas and other places. In short, if you can buy it, the bad guys can do so as well.

So the answer to defeating impregnable armor is not to continue testing it, but rather to bypass it. We do that with a greater degree of marksmanship skill and greater precision in our weapons. We seek the face shot as a matter of course rather than as an immediate action response. And if we are talking about shooting an adversary in the face, it will not matter if it was a 9mm or a 5.56. Not really. And that being the case, I suspect doing just that with a 9mm will be considerable easier, faster, and even quieter.

apamburn
05-02-2018, 11:42 AM
(Edited to add: You can probably just skip everything I wrote and refer to Brent and Gabe's posts above.)

The base question I think you're asking about is use case for a Glock PDW.

Other people that have 'been there done that' can answer that question a lot better than I. (As above...reference Brent and Gabe)

(for what it's worth, other people that have 'been there done that' have answered that question already - see the links to the blog and also search the forum to see).



It seems like the ability to suppress noise and flash is a common benefit. Is this to aid with hearing protection? Or is it primarily to reduce attention to the situation?


Like I said, I'm far from an authoritative source, but I think there isn't a hard and fast answer. It might be to aid with hearing, or it might be to reduce attention, or some other reason.

Quieter / less flash than rifle caliber SBR is simply an attribute of the PDW. When that attribute is needed to satisfy a need, or accomplish some task, pick the tool that has that attribute.

---

If you're looking for concrete places where the Glock PDW is advantageous to a rifle caliber SBR, you're going to run into a problem: everyone's situation is different. Remember, this is a proactive tool, not generally something that is on your person ready to go. You have to go get it or put it together.

The places I use mine (some of these have been supplanted by Tac 14):

1. Travel / hotel. I don't want to lug around a rifle or shotgun for road trips, and also don't want to check in a gun case. However, I would like to have something with more stability than pistol.

2. EDC + (my term for enhanced EDC). If I, for some reason, need to 'upgrade' my EDC due to a threat or some condition, a brace and a happy stick give me a light and relatively concealable weapon. For this use case my PDW kit resides in a camelbak and, if I perceive elevate risk (remember, proactive), I'll attach it.

3. Nightstand. I need to move through my home to gather and get my kids to safe room in the case of emergency. I need a weapon that is compact to facilitate movement and lightweight to facilitate one handed use. Recoil / flash / noise are secondary benefits.

4. Hiking. Not my first choice but I have to be discreet on shared or frequented trails. If, while on the trail, I needed to be able to push my Glock to the limit, the brace is there and could be attached whenever convenient.

---

I don't know if that helps, but I'm afraid you might not find an answer to the question you are ultimately asking.

sfc
05-02-2018, 11:58 AM
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful responses. I believe I understand the issues at play and can make my choices accordingly.

I appreciate you.

Gabriel Suarez
05-02-2018, 12:02 PM
https://vimeo.com/261341104

sfc
05-02-2018, 12:23 PM
Very cool. Thank you for the video.

gssc
05-02-2018, 01:50 PM
This is a question I wrestle with. I own a Sig Rattler in 300Blk and a Sig MPX in 9mm. The Rattler is so close in size and weight to the MPX that with a can in place, I take the Rattler. Only when I cannot have the extra length of the can (Silencerco Omega 9k) do I go with the MPX.

I move between urban and rural during my day so appreciate the range of the 300BLK.

Brent Yamamoto
05-02-2018, 02:00 PM
This is a question I wrestle with. I own a Sig Rattler in 300Blk and a Sig MPX in 9mm. The Rattler is so close in size and weight to the MPX that with a can in place, I take the Rattler. Only when I cannot have the extra length of the can (Silencerco Omega 9k) do I go with the MPX.

I move between urban and rural during my day so appreciate the range of the 300BLK.
This is why I argue that the Glock PDW has basically made all the 9mm sub guns obsolete. If you are going to pick up a weapon the size of a small rifle, you might as well have a rifle caliber. I don't have a good argument against that.

That's not to say that the MPX, the CZ Scorpion and others in that class aren't totally cool, because they are. But other than just wanting a sub gun (nothing wrong with that), there's nothing they do that the PDW can't (in a smaller, lighter frame).

For the guy that carries a Glock and an AR, I can see going with a 9mm AR that takes Glock mags. But still...I think that's a matter of wants.

Johnny C!
05-02-2018, 02:16 PM
I have several pistol caliber carbines.

For compactness, lightness, manual of arms
commonality with my carry Glocks, and a reliable
platform, the Glock PDW is the absolute lowest
common denominator that you can own.

Buy the PDW kit for $100 and try it. I am
sure that after you have shot it in that config,
you will understand. If you don't like it, you
can easily sell it, or use the tube & brace on
a future AR pistol build, but I am sure you
will like it.

I carry my PDW with it's 17.4 for road trips.
I carry it broken down in a small aviator's
headset bag. Very low key. And without
the time to re-install the brace, the Glock
is still a fully functional weapon.

It really is a no brainer to me to own at
least one or two.

https://suarezinternational.com/personal-defense-weapon-kit-for-glocks/

http://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53049&d=1500680869

DogDoc
05-02-2018, 02:51 PM
SFC,

For me, packing just a PDW brace (https://suarezinternational.com/search.php?search_query=pdw&section=product&_bc_fsnf=1&category=602) and a couple of happy sticks with an L Clamp (https://suarezinternational.com/pdw-dual-magazine-clamp/) in a laptop bag or backpack is much more realistic than carrying an actual gun in a bag (especially something as heavy as an AK/AR pistol/SBR and ammo). I'm just not interested in being that hyper-vigilant about where my bag is every second of every day. I could care less if the mags and brace fall into the wrong hands.

I always have several more powerful options in the truck.

Gabriel Suarez
05-02-2018, 02:57 PM
You know...maybe we will do this here. I will set a day at the range this summer and all WT guys can come up and run a series of SMG drills and close range (inside 100 yards) drills with thier chosen PDW. Then we can see how the Glock PDWs stack up against all these MP5 wannabees.

EDELWEISS
05-03-2018, 06:00 AM
As I read this, the one point I find most interesting is how language has morphed. That's not bad, it happens; but when language changes and definitions don't there is confusion. Gabe's post about PDWs was spot on.

PDWs were intended for support troops, who didn't need a full size rifle, and by extension might actually leave their rifle out of reach when they were doing their primary job--because a full size rifle slung on your shoulder is more than inconvenient when your crawling under a HUMMV to change the oil etc. BUT then what do you do when your repair shop suddenly gets hit by ISIS or a group of Spetnaz...

The original PDW concept called for a shoulder fired (or at least shoulder-able) weapon, capable of defeating SOFT body armor and having a range of say 200m+. It also was intended to be selective fire. Its that last part that really adds to the present PDW language conflict. Once you take the select fire option out of the picture, youre left with virtually anything that can be called a PDW. Again morphing the word isn't bad, is just the confusion of the new meaning with the old definition.

Before we go any further, I'm not suggesting a civilian needs Full Auto capability for self defense or even "self attack"--you don't. Its just PDW sounds sooo cool. Perhaps, though CDW (as in Civilian Defense Weapon), might have been a better term. Maybe; but it never took hold (again because PDWs are used by the cool guys and who doesn't want what the cool guys have--even if your PDW isn't what they use).

For ALL the reasons described above the Gabe's Glock PDW is a great gun and maybe the best option, especially given the description of use as Gabe described. Actual RIFLE type "PDWs" (AR/AK based) are closer to the original PDW description BUT without the full auto option, so not really PDWs and no where near as easy to carry in a civilian role. The Glock PDW is closer to the early 20th Century stocked pistols (think Broomhandle Mauser, Lugers and even the Soviet Stechkins which still have some use). Again the Glock PDW "works" because it IS easy to carry. It can be carried fully assembled in a bag much smaller than a AR/AK based "PDW" or it can be carried as an everyday carry pistol with the "stock" and large mags carried separately.

In the end its about what you have handy when you need it

ChrisNobody
05-03-2018, 08:43 AM
I have been fortunate enough to use the Glock PDW in both semi-auto as well as full-auto form. When SI trained a CT team for their Super Bowl deployment, I was fortunate enough to use both platforms. The semi-auto version was the SI prototype gun (G17 with full SI parts set, but without a manual safety). The full-auto version was a factory G-18 that we then attached the SI PDW kit to.

While the G-18 gave us all a lot of smiles, the SI version was HANDS DOWN the winner. Why?
1. By using the RMR equipped SI version, we were easily able to make hits at 100 and beyond with some of us making hits at close to 300 (using extreme holdover)
2. The full-auto feature was easy to control in bursts to the center of mass, but was a liability against the modern adversary (body armor/IED vest). Bursts could not be kept on the face, and significantly increased the risk of rounds traveling out beyond the target (a significant issue given the specific training mission of this CT team).
3. The SI equipped pistol had a better trigger which easily allowed participants to make precision head shots, especially when using the RMR.

The SI PDW was far better based upon the mission needs of this team. The G18 was a sexy way to burn through ammo. From that exercise we learned that the Glock PDW concept has a ton of applicability in the modern CT environment. It was light, accurate, had commonality with the most commonly carried service pistol, and was easily concealed. The only modification that would be required from the prototype (and is common now) would be the addition of a manual safety (required when using a single point sling under a hoodie).

While we can thank the military for the work behind the PDW concept, it was conceptualized for a time, environment and adversary that isn’t particularly useful today. However, by going beyond that concept, we can easily find a much more advanced platform tailored to the modern adversary - the SI Glock PDW.

ChrisNobody
05-03-2018, 10:06 AM
Gabe-

I think a range day would be outstanding. It would give an objective way to evaluate different platforms using scenarios that are realistic to WT members. I think you should expand it beyond SMG v PDW, or SMG v PDW v SBR. Instead, let’s get a cross section of each covering Pistol only, Stakeout, PDW, SMG, SBR, Battle Rifle.

I suspect that it will reinforce that, for us, the pistol is our primary (75%), but that the stakeout or PDW makes sense as a complement.

Brightlightman
05-03-2018, 04:52 PM
I just put a handful of rounds on a gong with my PDW with a can from 50yds to 100yds. I can do it with a pistol, but it is much easier with the PDW.

Dark One
05-06-2018, 09:48 AM
So hoping I didn't do something stupid..... Gabe's folder hinges to the right. When I put mine on my 17 PDWs and tightened everything up, mine both hinge to the left. Was this a preference thing to be able to shoot the PDW as a Pistol and then Use the hinge/folder or did I go and screw up what I thought was the simplest hinge installation ever?

Brightlightman
05-06-2018, 09:58 AM
Mine goes to the left. Perhaps the image was mirrored?
So hoping I didn't do something stupid..... Gabe's folder hinges to the right. When I put mine on my 17 PDWs and tightened everything up, mine both hinge to the left. Was this a preference thing to be able to shoot the PDW as a Pistol and then Use the hinge/folder or did I go and screw up what I thought was the simplest hinge installation ever?

Dark One
05-06-2018, 01:43 PM
Answer found!! I thought I remembered something about this in another thread. I was looking in the wrong thread.

Papa
05-06-2018, 02:23 PM
I started out with folding left, but switched when I realized that I could easily open the stock one-handed while picking the PDW up with my right.

Brent Yamamoto
05-06-2018, 02:33 PM
Mine folds left. Like virtually all my other folders.