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View Full Version : What a Stakeout Is and Isn't: LEO Perspective



JonathanNobody
04-07-2018, 09:05 PM
As I type this ChrisNobody is about to relax after the first day of the SI Shotgun Class - pass out actually - and I am contemplating the overwhelming amount of information I have learned in just eight hours of instruction. I'll let ChrisNobody write an after action report of the course; however, I'd like to briefly discuss my observations on what the Suarez International Stakeout 12 gauge is and is not. These observation are based on first hand, actually holding it and shooting it experience, filtered through a career of using the shotgun to solve social problems.

ChrisNobody and I brought box stock Remington TAC-14s to the course. We added the SI +1s and forged steel extractors, but the shotguns are stock as they come from the factory. I did add a Remington Police 870 14" barrel with rifle sights to ChrisNobody's so we could see for ourselves if there is a tangible difference between rifle sight and bead sights in the delivery of lead on target. Eight or so hours into the course, I can honestly say a Remington TAC-14 is in no way a Suarez International Stakeout, and vice versa. While the Suarez International Stakeout begins life as a TAC-14, it becomes so much more that when one looks at the cost analysis for what one actually gets the return on investment is multiplied many times over.

How does a stock Remington TAC-14 do? It does well. The shotgun is "serviceable" and with a standard bead sight one can lob one ounce lead slugs on a human sized silhouette at 75 yards. Yes, I said 75 yards. Kinds of makes you wonder what other misconceptions out there about short barreled devices such as this are complete bullshit.... a lot really. If anything, this course has taught us the limits of the weapon system are far beyond our previously held beliefs. I'll let ChrisNobody fill you in on that part.

The stock Remington TAC-14 is perfectly serviceable and for the casual non-law enforcement officer, and the generic law enforcement officer alike, it will do just fine. That is, if "just fine" is "good enough" for you. If you're taking a Suarez International course, I'd venture to say "good enough" won't satisfy you. The standard action of the stock TAC-14 is ok, a bit rough, most assuredly not honed, polished or in any way designed to assist you with manipulation. Several hundred shot shells downrange will change that, but then again, looking at cost analysis, I'm spending several hundred dollars in shot shells to get to where the Stakeout starts. The standard trigger spring and MIM ejector have their issues, but are "serviceable." Serviceable is the word, but bear in mind Remington Law Enforcement doesn't deem them "serviceable" enough to use in their law enforcement shotguns. If Remington doesn't consider them good enough, may be we should consider that a clue. Yes, they're replaceable, but there's a cost to is. That brings us back to cost analysis and return on investment.

So, in summary, am I ok with the stock Remington TAC-14 ChrisNobody and I have. No - fuck no - no - and no. I'm getting ChrisNobody's Remington TAC-14 made over into an Amphibian for his birthday present and now my conscience is eased.

Is a Remington TAC-14 a Stakeout? Based on experience, it absolutely is not a Stakeout.

Here, I copied this from the website to explain what a Stakeout is over and beyond a TAC-14 (sorry for the plagiarism Gabe but I'm tired):

Stakeout Details:


Remington 870 Barrel 14" - Internally polished for predictability of pattern.
Optional Stakeout Porting System to reduce recoil.
Optional Plus One Magazine Extension installed for a 5+1 Capacity (4+1 is standard).
Bolt and Action Bar components tuned, polished, and finished in NP3.
Trigger group tuned for a crisp break, new springs added.
Receiver loading port and ejection ports are de-horned, opened and polished for better ergonomics.
Steel Extractor installed for increased reliability.
Textured Magpul Forend is standard.
Textured Shockwave PGO Non-NFA Pistol Grip.
Suarez Safety installed to improve engagement from Safe to Fire positions.
Suarez NP3 Steel Non-Binding Follower.
Extra-Power Heavy-Duty Stainless Magazine Tube Spring.
Fiber Optic front sight in Green (Optional sighting systems available).
Cerakote rust resistant finish for lubricity and durability under all conditions.


Read carefully and I'll summarize what I've learned so far first hand...like actually holding them and using them knowledge.

I've learned the following (in bullet point form as I'm tired):


NP3 is king. If it isn't NP3'd it may be great, but NP3 takes away all maintenance worry and the action smoothness is EXTREMELY noticeable.
The SI replaced parts are needs, not wants. Springs and extractors make the weapon a fighting instrument and bring the reliability way up.
Texturing is a need and the magic bears out when one gets tired, sweaty, etc.
The honing of the action is worth the price alone and comparing a Stakout to a TAC-14 is a tangible event.



Do I like and want a Stakeout...why yes I do

What is this important to me? I've made a career of changing people's minds and holding them accountable for their actions. Like many here, I've used the Remington 870 Police 14" as an instrument of repentance and in my experience having the best tool provided a confidence and competency second to none. Yes, competency is not confidence and it is a second factor the Stakeout magnifies. Magnifies if the right word by the way. One may be competent, but the TAC-14 will not magnify the competency, bring it to a higher level, or provide the reassurance. And friends, when shit happens fast competency and reassurance are paramount.

So, would I spend my hard earned money on a tool such as a Stakeout. Yes! Do I believe the difference between a Stakeout and a TAC-14 justify the cost? Fuck yes. Sorry Gabe, but everyone knows if cops don't use the word fuck they're not telling the truth.

If you're in the market for a TAC-14 that's outstanding. If you want to get the most out of the weapon system, or a Suarez International course for that matter, I think you'll be disappointed and let down as your tool will be hindering your development. May I recommend you take a look at the Stakeout and then let your chosen battle implement allow you to get the most out of your training and give you the competency and reassurance when it is game day.

For what it's worth.

J

Ted Demosthenes
04-07-2018, 10:53 PM
Excellent! Now head for bed and a well-earned rest before jumping back into class.

Johnny C!
04-08-2018, 11:21 AM
Great write up.

Thanks!

JonathanNobody
04-08-2018, 02:24 PM
As we near the end of the second day of training I’m a firm believer the stock TAC-14 will disappoint the even average student. The details in the Stakeout and Amphibian packages have proven to yield significant return on investment.

The PGO concept has proven to far exceed imaginable limits; I guess it just matters how much one wants to fight the equipment.

Repeatable strikes at 100 yards with slugs from a rifle-sighted Amphibian are commonplace. That speaks volumes for the slug delivery device....and the skill of Josh and Paul.

Steven Spaugh
04-08-2018, 02:34 PM
I have a Tac 14 due to budget restrictions. When I looked at what SI does to this weapon, I immediately recognized that even if I could do everything they do to the Tac 14, I could not do it for the same price. I agree, it is well worth the money.

By the way, JonathanNobody, are you adopting?
"I'm getting ChrisNobody's Remington TAC-14 made over into an Amphibian for his birthday present and now my conscience is eased."
Niiiiiice gift! :cool:

EDELWEISS
04-08-2018, 02:35 PM
Where would you put a braced Tac14 in the "which one to grab" arena? I do like my Tac14s but a braced version is seriously calling my name. I'm envisioning a 12" barrel (even with the mag tube, so no +1) with a folding adapter to take advantage of the shortest possible package. Now the question is which brace (SB Tac or Tail Hook), which adapter (straight or angled) and which sights (bead, RMR, rifle sights, or wait for it.... Express sights)

JonathanNobody
04-08-2018, 03:16 PM
Where would you put a braced Tac14 in the "which one to grab" arena? I do like my Tac14s but a braced version is seriously calling my name. I'm envisioning a 12" barrel (even with the mag tube, so no +1) with a folding adapter to take advantage of the shortest possible package. Now the question is which brace (SB Tac or Tail Hook), which adapter (straight or angled) and which sights (bead, RMR, rifle sights, or wait for it.... Express sights)

I’ll be honest, this class has taught me a standard Amphibian with rifle sights and a RMR is the apex of the system. The other add-ons are very nice but what I described is a true killing machine sans unnecessary items. Just my opinion.
D
Years ago I worked a case where the medical examiner described the killer as very “clinical.” “Clinical” is the adjective I think of when I look at the Amphibian. It’s violence objectified, has what’s necessary and ruthlessly efficient, but nothing that isn’t needed.

Remember, we have to look at return on investment for each item or expenditure. In skilled hands, the SI Stakeout series is the definition of “gun violence.”

JonathanNobody
04-08-2018, 07:18 PM
Here are some photos of the Amphibian. This one is Gabe's and it was ran hard over the weekend. This is what I've chosen for ChrisNobody. It is most decidedly not a TAC-14 and the difference is in the detail.


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Greg Nichols
04-09-2018, 09:18 AM
Some of my comments from another thread:

I got my start with firearms as a competition sporting clay shooter at age 11, and started using them as a fighting platform in 1997, and since I just turned 40 this Saturday that puts me at 29 years of shooting shotguns at a very high level. I love it, I'm good at it, and even after the first shotgun class I was still of the opinion that I could do, anything with a vented rib and a bead sight that I could do with other sighting systems. After this weekend I have completely changed my tune and the way I look at the use of the shotgun for fighting.


Improved sights have not detriment to the ability to hit moving/flying targets. I watched Chrisnobody shoot about 80% on thrown clays with a rifle sighted TAC 14. It hadn't even had the SI Stakeout treatment yet.

Improved sights. There are a bunch of variants of shotgun sights out there and pretty much all of them were present at the class, from fiber optic to ghost rings, rifle sights to beads. The best result came from good rifle sights, especially when we were shooting slugs past 75 yards.

Optics, you just need them on a fighting shotgun. This was, in my opinion, a mental block for me when thinking about the envelope of the shotgun. I just didn't see the need, right up until I picked up an unfamiliar Stakeout with an RMR on it and made a first round hit with a slug at well over 100m and it still hit with authority.

This gunfighter's observation is that the best combination for any shotgun application is you need refined rifle sights (narrow front post) and an RMR to effectively get the most out of the platform. Not to turn it into a rifle, but to squeeze all the juice out.

Here is my post from exactly 3 months ago concerning this topic:

http://www.warriortalk.com/images/SeamusLight/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Greg Nichols http://www.warriortalk.com/images/SeamusLight/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?p=1847049#post1847049) Honestly, I have so much time with a shotgun (I started shooting competitive shotgun at 11), and none of it with a tritium dot or optic I don't really know how much value I'd get out of it at this point. I'd have to put in some serious time with it to see if I got benefit from it, hell shottys point so naturally for me I never focus on the sights anyway.

CDX09
04-09-2018, 10:53 AM
Here are some photos of the Amphibian. This one is Gabe's and it was ran hard over the weekend. This is what I've chosen for ChrisNobody. It is most decidedly not a TAC-14 and the difference is in the detail.


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I ran this exact shotgun for an afternoon, and it was really impressive. There really is no comparison between this and a stock tac14. It'd be like comparing a stock G17 to a complete SI 17 with RMR.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brent Yamamoto
04-09-2018, 11:27 AM
I ran this exact shotgun for an afternoon, and it was really impressive. There really is no comparison between this and a stock tac14. It'd be like comparing a stock G17 to a complete SI 17 with RMR.


Good comparison but I think the improvement is even greater than that.

+1 on the rifle sights in combo with the dual illum RMR. Particularly on a Stakeout, but also on the braced versions. Seriously...comparing that combo to a bead, it’s like comparing to a car with a blacked out windshield. The difference really is that stark. You can still drive with your head out the window, but a real windshield makes it a lot easier.

RobertGuy
04-13-2018, 10:02 PM
Great to hear the comparison, and knowing the customization makes a real difference.

Is the Amphibian different than the Stakeout with the NP3 finish option?
I'm also assuming "rifle sights" are the same as "slug sights" in the option list.
When I price the two out, and what appears to be identical options (ported, slug sights, RMR mount, mag extension), the Amphibian is $1,504.99 and the Stakeout NP3 is $1,689.99.

Like to hear some experiences with the brace. I'm presuming the brace makes the Amphibian/Stakeout on part with the Patrol/Raider/stock.

LawDog
04-13-2018, 10:59 PM
At what range are you guys setting the zero for a Stakeout? Have any trends been observed in finding a slug/buckshot combo that keeps a close POI between the two within buckshot distances?

On Gabe's gun, I noticed that the forward sling attachment appears to be bent. What is the purpose of that? (I'm assuming it was intentional, and he didn't accidentally bend it muzzle punching someone.)

JonathanNobody
04-13-2018, 11:02 PM
I don’t claim to understand or know the variations; however, I do know this: what constitutes a NP3’d, rifle-sighted, extended magazine, Stakeout with an RMR is a force to be reckoned with the likes never before available. In skilled hands, driven by will, it can easily do whatever needs to be done to greater than 100 yards.

This fact is based on first-hand observation filtered by experience.

Brent Yamamoto
04-14-2018, 01:22 AM
At what range are you guys setting the zero for a Stakeout? Have any trends been observed in finding a slug/buckshot combo that keeps a close POI between the two within buckshot distances?

On Gabe's gun, I noticed that the forward sling attachment appears to be bent. What is the purpose of that? (I'm assuming it was intentional, and he didn't accidentally bend it muzzle punching someone.)

We zeroed with slugs at 25 yards. That allows a good POI for slugs out to 100 as well as appropriate buckshot distances. We easily hit the little lollipop steels (about the size of a face at 10-15 yards). We used bird, #4 and 00 with the Stakeout at those distances to excellent effect.

I thought I heard Mike say a good number of 00 buck pellets still hit the torso at 100, but I may have misheard.

Federal #1 flitecontrol performs basically like a slug out to 20, and just starts to open at 25. You can push that load out further but I didn’t test it personally.

25 yard zero works excellent. Of course you have to pattern your shotgun with the ammo you intend to carry.

Gabe’s sling loop is bent because he threw it on the ground during the safety lecture. He was humorously making the point that the muzzle covers SOMETHING you’re not willing to destroy no matter where you have it pointed, so he tossed it.

Brent Yamamoto
04-14-2018, 01:40 AM
Is the Amphibian different than the Stakeout with the NP3 finish option?
Only difference is the finish. Both have NP3 on the bolt and action bars. Otherwise the Stakeout is Ceracoated; standard is grey but other colors are available. The Amphibian is all NP3; it’s a tougher finish but costs a bit more. Vent rib barrels aren'ta good choice for NP3; the solder won’t hold up to the heat of application.

I'm also assuming "rifle sights" are the same as "slug sights" in the option list. yes

When I price the two out, and what appears to be identical options (ported, slug sights, RMR mount, mag extension), the Amphibian is $1,504.99 and the Stakeout NP3 is $1,689.99. NP3 costs a bit more. Rifle sights cost more than the bead, mostly due to the work involved.

Like to hear some experiences with the brace. I'm presuming the brace makes the Amphibian/Stakeout on part with the Patrol/Raider/stock.

The brace essentially makes it an SBS. One thing to keep in mind though is that braces are designed to be BRACES. They are a bit thicker on top and effectively give you a higher cheek weld. With a bead, you really have to crush your cheek down for a good sight picture. It works but I did not find this comfortable. But sights and/or RMR work great and allow for a more comfortable cheek weld.