The gun culture is doomed

[WOLF220]

Yesterday I went to a gun show. It’s the first gun show I’ve gone to in probably 10 years. Granted it was put on by a small local gun club in a rural part of the state. I could not believe what I was seeing and hearing. I was there for about an hour and saw more obese uncouth stinky bastards than I ever care to see in one location. The absolute bullshit that I was hearing was unbelievable, seems like most of these guys live in a fantasy world. I heard everything from you can’t fire the tac14s or shockwaves any other way but from the hip, they weren’t designed to be fired from the aimed position don’t you know. To the new novx ammunition. The 9mm version is on par with .44 magnum ballistics! WHAT THE FUCK, OVER?! How do these people come up with this unmitigated bullshit? When I told the vendor it’s only a 65 grain bullet, I doubt it has the penetration capability an effective round needs to be lethal, penetration is what kills. He told me some story about how the round was tested and penetrated 2 gel blocks back to back. :yell: I couldn’t take it anymore and left without buying anything. This vendor must’ve weighed 400 pounds easy was wearing shorts with those gay foot gloves with the individual toes, it was 26 degrees yesterday for a high temp. And all you could smell was his stank ass feet anytime you walked by his table.

I don’t think I’ll be going to many more gun shows. It is a shame because I used to enjoy them, but it seems to have gone to hell. If this was a representation of the gun culture, it is certainly doomed. It seems to be full of talkers, not doers. Granted, again this was only in my small slice of the world but what I saw in person seems to back up what I read in comment sections on other blogs/pages. It makes me really appreciate the mindset that this place has. It is not found anywhere else on the web.

[psalms23dad]

"It makes me really appreciate the mindset that this place has. It is not found anywhere else on the web."

That's a fact!!!

[Nabalfodrows]

I was at work, so I didn't go to my local gun show yesterday. One of my associates who did go essentially told me the same thing.

[Gabriel Suarez]

I am NOT a part of what they call "the gun community" anymore than samurai were a part of the "sword community".

[Gabriel Suarez]

The notion that GUNS unite us and make us all "on the same side" is nonsense. That is like saying the pedophile and the drug addict are on our same side because we all drink coffee. Fairly ridiculous notion.

[barnetmill]

Lately the largest local gunshow has been charging $9 to get in, along with the drive, and consuming time that could be used for other things I stopped going. I go to the smaller one that is held in my county because it is closer and a little cheaper. I go there looking for odds and ends. for guns almost never since they charge more at the shows than my local dealer will charge me. But things like a mauser action without paper work, perhaps an old lot of berdan primers, and other little goodies I will buy. The gun owning public in general is there and some are worth talking and others are not. Yes there are some strange people that work as vendors at gunshows. I was at one show Maryland when working up there and then later when working elsewhere saw the same couple at a gunshow in lake county, Indiana. They were a couple of homos and the one with the makeup was noticeable lol. I met Eric in Maryland at what his last show before he set up Ammoman.com. Said the setting up and tearing down along with the travel was more than he wanted to do for whatever profits he was getting and he was going online.

[Mike Heckathorn]

Lately the largest local gunshow has been charging $9 to get in, along with the drive, and consuming time that could be used for other things I stopped going. I go to the smaller one that is held in my county because it is closer and a little cheaper. I go there looking for odds and ends. for guns almost never since they charge more at the shows than my local dealer will charge me. But things like a mauser action without paper work, perhaps an old lot of berdan primers, and other little goodies I will buy. The gun owning public in general is there and some are worth talking and others are not. Yes there are some strange people that work as vendors at gunshows. I was at one show Maryland when working up there and then later when working elsewhere saw the same couple at a gunshow in lake county, Indiana. They were a couple of homos and the one with the makeup was noticeable lol. I met Eric in Maryland at what his last show before he set up Ammoman.com. Said the setting up and tearing down along with the travel was more than he wanted to do for whatever profits he was getting and he was going online.

With the cost of parking, the last gun show I went to in Phoenix cost $24 to get into.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Boy Scout]

Indianapolis hosts a very large show about five times a year. It is always a pleasant experience, with a solid crowd for each show, full of the best folks around. So many "pardon me's" for getting past someone in a crowded aisle, pleasantries exchanged, good deals made FTF, a LOT of veteran-owned startups for holsters, gun lube, AR500 steel targets, you name it...

I slide into one probably once a year and take cash with me for the incidentals I have been thinking about buying. Last time I went I gave a vendor $180 for a SBPDW brace, another one $25 for 25 Surefire CR123 batteries, and traded another a SIG P250C for a nice G19 from the custom shop with some stippling and slidework. I always go in with something in mind and work the deal.


While our show has the occasional fatty or homie who's trying to score a heater, the fatties are few and far between, and the homies get pinched by the UC guys every time. We have more folks who accidentally bump into you with the the Mauser they are trying to sell and apologize up and down for it than any cross words exchanged.

Our 2A community here is pretty tight and made up of folks with Hoosier Hospitality, and the organizer puts on a good show.



More of my concern is this horrendous blast by the media and all the useful idiots clamoring to give up their rights "for the children". If we don't stick together and keep vastly unconstitutional bills from passing, I fear we're in for some trouble ahead.

[M1A's r Best]

I'm still going to them. Good sized one about 20 miles from the house next weekend. I'll be there looking for a certain CZ pistol and possibly some powder and whatever else might catch my eye.

Yes, lots of strange people at gun shows, or movie theaters, or the mall, or the grocery store. I go anyway.

People are people and different. Some nice, some mean, some just plain refugees from normal (or what used to be normal when I was growing up). The world is changing, and not necessarily for the better.

[EDELWEISS]

YES there is a certain Gun Show crowd. It doesn't matter where you are they come out from places that give the worst trailer parks and homeless shelters a boost. Whats really important is that those folks are out there everyday. They are the garbage dwellers, bumpstock, Korean mag, Tapco buyers.

Don't be surprised, they've been there forever. WHAT should be a concern is how many potentially OK folks so easily fall to this level. That its easy to be like this isn't the issue--of course its easy. ACTUALLY being like that is the problem. How people dress when they go in public, is an indication of this mindset. Add to that personal hygiene and grooming....and then theres how (well) they speak English. It used to be that you could take pride in being clean when you went out, and wearing clothes that were pressed even if your clothes were old, and we seem to have forgotten how to speak without adding FUCK to every sentence (if its even a sentence). Nope these people aren't new, they've always existed, the difference is we've had 50 years of conditioning that its OK by the SJWs. Well its NOT OK.

Its all part of the race to the lowest common denominator.

[psalms23dad]

Our gun shows are more like flea markets with some guns. I've not been to one in years. They were fun to visit around he Y2K years though :laugh:

[rodanvssct]

My jujitsu teacher used to say the martial arts wasn't designed for the masses referring to cookie cutter dojos, and the bulljitsu out there. It's the same with the gunfu crowd.

[chad newton]

Yesterday I went to a gun show. It’s the first gun show I’ve gone to in probably 10 years. Granted it was put on by a small local gun club in a rural part of the state. I could not believe what I was seeing and hearing. I was there for about an hour and saw more obese uncouth stinky bastards than I ever care to see in one location. The absolute bullshit that I was hearing was unbelievable, seems like most of these guys live in a fantasy world. I heard everything from you can’t fire the tac14s or shockwaves any other way but from the hip, they weren’t designed to be fired from the aimed position don’t you know. To the new novx ammunition. The 9mm version is on par with .44 magnum ballistics! WHAT THE FUCK, OVER?! How do these people come up with this unmitigated bullshit? When I told the vendor it’s only a 65 grain bullet, I doubt it has the penetration capability an effective round needs to be lethal, penetration is what kills. He told me some story about how the round was tested and penetrated 2 gel blocks back to back. :yell: I couldn’t take it anymore and left without buying anything. This vendor must’ve weighed 400 pounds easy was wearing shorts with those gay foot gloves with the individual toes, it was 26 degrees yesterday for a high temp. And all you could smell was his stank ass feet anytime you walked by his table.

I don’t think I’ll be going to many more gun shows. It is a shame because I used to enjoy them, but it seems to have gone to hell. If this was a representation of the gun culture, it is certainly doomed. It seems to be full of talkers, not doers. Granted, again this was only in my small slice of the world but what I saw in person seems to back up what I read in comment sections on other blogs/pages. It makes me really appreciate the mindset that this place has. It is not found anywhere else on the web.You shot his fat ass and see how far it penitrated him....

[mattmann]

There was a “prepper and gun show” a few weeks ago here. My brother went to it and said there was a lot of this crap there. The name is what put me off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gabriel Suarez]

That is the other thing...prepping. You want ro prep...really...then make alot of money, live in a good neighborhood and take care of yourself physically.

[chad newton]

That is the other thing...prepping. You want ro prep...really...then make alot of money, live in a good neighborhood and take care of yourself physically.
One of the biggest problems I see that most of these people don’t think about, if their lights are on and their house smells food. Everyone that never thought about having anything extra will take their shit. “If” it ever got that bad, even brothers and best friends will want to kill you. Me, I think it’s a good idea to be prepared. Biggest rule of fight club, is you don’t talk about fight club.....

[CaneCorso]

Weak fat slobs at gun shows aside, what I believe is a harbinger of the "death of the gun culture and the American way" is that there are very few young people at the ranges I go to...besides the occasional USMC or cop, it's very often I am the "youngster" in my 50's running out to paint the metal during the cease fires.

The 70-80+ year olds are all good guys, for sure, but for the most part the youth are missing. Hopefully just a SoCal thing?

[barnetmill]

The prepping mindset could easily take another thread for sure. There are well groomed and correctly speaking people out there that literally think the world as we know it is likely to end any day now and that is on their minds anytime they leave their home.

Having money is a good resource to allow one to 'prep' for things that life can throw at you. I consider it like ammo where it still takes some direction and thinking to achieve the objectives.

[Greg Nichols]

That is the other thing...prepping. You want ro prep...really...then make alot of money, live in a good neighborhood and take care of yourself physically.

It's more than death of the gun culture, it's the death of the masculine warrior culture. In fighting and business it pays to be lean, strong, decisive, trained, and willing to take control.

[CaneCorso]

.. In fighting and business it pays to be lean, strong, decisive, trained, and willing to take control.

That's pretty much the credo of how to live life in general.

[mattmann]

Mark Riptoe said it best: “weak people are harder to kill than weak people and generally more useful”. I love the “self defense” minded and prepper type that couldn’t walk 1 mile with body weight not to mention 30-50lbs of kit on. They should start “prepping” for a healthier longer life before any other scenario. If anyone needs an eye opener on their health, I competed in a run and gun 5k in Kentucky this past Saturday. Between the elevation, tough mudder style obstacles, terrain (all off road up and down mountain sides) and kit you carry (rifle, pistol, rifle mags, pistol mags, eye pro, ear pro, GoPro, etc) it will quickly make you realize the things to work on in your conditioning. Not to mention the rain and cold weather. Second time I ran it and LOVED it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LawDog]

When I was a kid, I loved gun shows. I loved the gun shop. Even before I learned that there were entire stores devoted to guns, I would go press my little nose against the glass at Sears and drool over the BB guns.

Today, it is more about the range. I can also enjoy the dojo or a weight room. I generally prefer to be alone, but I realize that this preference is largely predicated on the absence of good company. When I get the opportunity to shoot guns with skilled friends that I respect, it is actually more enjoyable than a day alone running drills. But I'd rather be alone on the range than share it with some dufus shooting a MK18 slow-fire off sandbags, and getting 8" groups at 100y. I can't enjoy my time at the gym when a fat guy doing bosu ball curls is constantly getting in my way.

Succinctly: I would rather be alone than surrounded by idiots. And that is true in all of life.

[Papa]

Succinctly: I would rather be alone than surrounded by idiots. And that is true in all of life.

Reflected in your choice of occupation. Regardless of how many idiots fill the courtroom, ultimately it's just one man standing up and saying what needs to be said.

[apamburn]

Weak fat slobs at gun shows aside, what I believe is a harbinger of the "death of the gun culture and the American way" is that there are very few young people at the ranges I go to...besides the occasional USMC or cop, it's very often I am the "youngster" in my 50's running out to paint the metal during the cease fires.

The 70-80+ year olds are all good guys, for sure, but for the most part the youth are missing. Hopefully just a SoCal thing?

Definitely not the the same here in Utah. 20-30 year old guys are all over firearms.

[Greg Nichols]

Reflected in your choice of occupation. Regardless of how many idiots fill the courtroom, ultimately it's just one man standing up and saying what needs to be said.

He's just a man. Standing in front of a girl.

[Papa]

Black dress, no wig?

[Ryan Taylor]

Definitely not the the same here in Utah. 20-30 year old guys are all over firearms.

Utah is awesome.

The SLC area is becoming more San Fran every year, whatever. Push out to west valley and Rose Park area, and it's very liberal. Lots of Hispanics and New comers to the state over the last ten years or so, many from California.

Interesting to me how people flee from an area because its policies make it suck, then the first thing they do is try to turn it into California, or little Mexico, or whatever.

But I still freaking love Utah.

Guns for days.... Physical fitness type degrees are the number one studied subject in BYU. Lots of mma gyms.

The only stupid part I see is dumb asses shooting thier stupid tracers out in the middle of blm land, then leaving the place to burn.

Freaking idiots.

[Christopher Calhoun]

I am NOT a part of what they call "the gun community" anymore than samurai were a part of the "sword community".

Or the “American Olympic TKD” are apart of the warrior community. The only thing they (most of them) care about is flashy spinning kicks with horizontal 360s, kicks that go vertically straight into the air and kata with more flips and unnecessary speed to not see the hurried hand movements.

In my opinion, Chon Ji done correctly is way more beautiful than those.

Sorry, I’m ranting. Apologies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BillyOblivion]

The 70-80+ year olds are all good guys, for sure, but for the most part the youth are missing. Hopefully just a SoCal thing?

From what I've seen around here (Colorado) it's a California thing.

[CaneCorso]

From what I've seen around here (Colorado) it's a California thing.


That's good to hear, thanks.

[Puddle]

Went to one once.

'bout 15 years ago.

[steve_k]

It’s been about 20 years since I’ve been to a gun show, um sorry, crafts fair. They sucked the last few years that I went, so I just stopped going. At some point I might try one of the local shows since moving to WA to see if it’s the same deal.

[chad newton]

The coolest thing I ever saw at the gun show was a customer of ours that had over 200,000 handloaded rounds through a colt revolver. I thought that was pretty cool, I never knew before that he even shot.

[chad newton]

Plus I used to get factory reloads from a company called minwall or something like that. They were cheap and always worked...

[Dorkface]

Its kinda funny to imagine all the land whales stroking out on their way home if something happened. Looting their bodies could double the amount of time planned to get home...

[emtdaddy1980]

I am NOT a part of what they call "the gun community" anymore than samurai were a part of the "sword community".Gay guys use their dicks. I also use my dick. I am not gay. The gun is a tool. Some people use their tools incorrectly. Some people believe some weird shit about how a tool should be used. Having the same or a similar tool does not make one part of any "community". I was going somewhere with this...... sorry, its been a long shift. Anyway, thank you for giving us this place to take in real valuable information, as opposed to all the gay tools out there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Christopher Calhoun]

This reminds me of a time I was at a local outdoor range near me. Alpine they call it.

Busiest day I’ve ever seen there.

I paid my (quite reasonable) fee and walked down to the pistol range. I had just acquired a Gen 3 G19TB and wanted to sight it in. At the time for me, sight it in was the same thing as “see how it shoots” since I had no sight pusher tool. They were still shooting so I patiently waited.

Once it was over the pistol line range master, a guy who couldn’t have been more than 23 tops, with a Serpa holstered 1911, called the shots and asked if I wanted to place my target. I said “yes please,” and put my stuff on the spot where I was to shoot. I had two guns, the Gen 3 and my holstered Gen 4. I started walking towards the “entrance” of down range when I forgot I was still holstered so I said, “oh dangit wait...sorry,” then walked back to my spot unholsterd my weapon from my appendix carry holster and started to clear it to lay it down.

THE RANGE GUY FLIPPED OUT!

He yelled at me, “hey what do you think you’re doing?!?” I explained I forgot I was holstered and didn’t want to break the rules walking down range with a loaded weapon and pointed at the sign that said “Absolutely NO loaded guns down range.”

Mostly, I didn’t feel I was dangerous, I just didn’t want to get excused from the line when I came BACK and unholstered, thus breaking a range rule.

He says to me, “well that was stupid, you could’ve just waited the next round then, and that’s not a safe place to carry a holstered gun anyway. I’m going to have to go see if you’re allowed to stay.”

Um, what? Excuse me? I follow a rule and I’m in trouble and I may not be able to stay? For following a rule??? I should’ve left but I’ve always had great experiences there so I waited.

I explained that I was again, making sure I didn’t break a rule so I wasn’t sure why I needed permission to stay.

He stated he was going to go ask anyway. He walked off and about one to two minutes later he comes back with an older guy who looked and talked squared away. The man looks at me and says, to just make sure to let a range master know I’m holstered when I walk up next time as an informal formality but no, I didn’t break any rules. Oddly, the older gentleman stayed and the younger guy was nowhere to be seen on the pistol ranges for the duration of my stay.

I shot like crap that day too. Hadn’t been in over two years. Embarrassing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Greg Nichols]

I had two guns, the Gen 3 and my holstered Gen 4. I started walking towards the “entrance” of down range when I forgot I was still holstered so I said, “oh dangit wait...sorry,” then walked back to my spot unholsterd my weapon from my appendix carry holster and started to clear it to lay it down.

I shot like crap that day too. Hadn’t been in over two years. Embarrassing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'll be honest, these are the only 2 things I retained from your story. First, why the hell would you unholster a concealed gun on a private range? Just leave it under your shirt. Second, 2 years between range trips? That's not even reasonable no matter how broke you are.

[Christopher Calhoun]

1. Wanted to shoot it.


2. I agree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christopher Calhoun]

I would even add that it was irresponsible to wait that long.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chad newton]

I'll be honest, these are the only 2 things I retained from your story. First, why the hell would you unholster a concealed gun on a private range? Just leave it under your shirt. Second, 2 years between range trips? That's not even reasonable no matter how broke you are.
I think he was talking about the one gun. Not shooting in general. But I’m not talking for him.

[chad newton]

Maybe not, but I won a free membership for a year at a local gun range in Georgia and I’m not even there. I havnt even claimed my prize yet.:)

[Gabriel Suarez]

I do not go to "public ranges", to Planet Fitness, nor to Golden Corral. If I cannot get to the live fire sessions, I have found that judicious dry fire drills at home more than maintain skills. In fact...I dry fire to live fire ration probably 30 sessions to 1 session.

Which brings us around to the point. We are not a part of the collective in fitness, in mental positioning, in life choices, or anything else. Let us not identify with the "gun community" simply because they had the crumbs to go to the local smoke den and buy a used Ruger. No kids...we do not want to be a part of their world anymore than they could be a part of ours?

Elitist?

Snobbish?

Exclusive?

Damn right skippy. As I progress near the "get off my lawn" stage, I have little time or tolerance for the collective.

[Greg Nichols]

I do not go to "public ranges", to Planet Fitness, nor to Golden Corral. If I cannot get to the live fire sessions, I have found that judicious dry fire drills at home more than maintain skills. In fact...I dry fire to live fire ration probably 30 sessions to 1 session.

Which brings us around to the point. We are not a part of the collective in fitness, in mental positioning, in life choices, or anything else. Let us not identify with the "gun community" simply because they had the crumbs to go to the local smoke den and buy a used Ruger. No kids...we do not want to be a part of their world anymore than they could be a part of ours?

Elitist?

Snobbish?

Exclusive?

Damn right skippy. As I progress near the "get off my lawn" stage, I have little time or tolerance for the collective.

Yep. If I wanted to be average or normal I wouldn't be here, I'd be on arfcom or some other den of mediocrity

[Christopher Calhoun]

Yep. If I wanted to be average or normal I wouldn't be here, I'd be on arfcom or some other den of mediocrity

All great points. I don’t mind anybody ripping me a new one or disagreeing with what I think or have to say. If I thought I was right all the time I’d be an idiot with one circle of thinking. I wouldn’t learn a darn thing that way either. Sometimes, well, often times, learning is in harsh fashion (not saying your comments were harsh) and it’s how we take what we are given and apply it, that really determines how we move forward. Jocko Willink said something I’ve always thought but didn’t know how to put into words, and I’ll paraphrase: “When somebody harshly criticizes you, there’s always a shred of truth in there.” So I try (my best anyway) to keep from having an automatic indignant response right off the bat.

Coming here, I’ve only been on a couple other forums a few times. Trying to keep up old acquaintances/trying to move them here. I’d say the only places I’ve been lately forum-wise besides here are guitar forums and that was last, shoot, October or November? Either way, I can find a metric TON of quality information here about all sorts of things in life, not just gun handling.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chad newton]

I do not go to "public ranges", to Planet Fitness, nor to Golden Corral. If I cannot get to the live fire sessions, I have found that judicious dry fire drills at home more than maintain skills. In fact...I dry fire to live fire ration probably 30 sessions to 1 session.

Which brings us around to the point. We are not a part of the collective in fitness, in mental positioning, in life choices, or anything else. Let us not identify with the "gun community" simply because they had the crumbs to go to the local smoke den and buy a used Ruger. No kids...we do not want to be a part of their world anymore than they could be a part of ours?

Elitist?

Snobbish?

Exclusive?

Damn right skippy. As I progress near the "get off my lawn" stage, I have little time or tolerance for the collective.This is the main reason I havnt. I hate being around people let alone duche bags at the gun ranges. I have never even shot at an indoor range. The hundred bucks or whatever it costs for a year there may be better off with someone else. I don’t need some dumb ass telling me I can’t carry a gun nor do I need the same about someone kicking me out when they see me doing drills. I train to kill people, if that bothers anyone, they can gft......

[LawDog]

I do not go to "public ranges", to Planet Fitness, nor to Golden Corral. If I cannot get to the live fire sessions, I have found that judicious dry fire drills at home more than maintain skills. In fact...I dry fire to live fire ration probably 30 sessions to 1 session.My dry fire to live fire ratio is probably only 20-to-1. But I suspect you are exceeding me in both categories.

I'd be interested in seeing where the pistol kata is at these days. Don't forget about that project. I'm looking forward to a video of that.

[Gabriel Suarez]

I'd be interested in seeing where the pistol kata is at these days. Don't forget about that project. I'm looking forward to a video of that.

Making it complicated is easy...making it simple is another matter.

[Brent Yamamoto]

Making it complicated is easy...making it simple is another matter.

THIS!

Gabe understands kata.

The best kata are simple yet have an enormous amount of fundamentals built into them. Not to mention thought and care to make sure they communicate the right lessons. Designing them is not something to take lightly.

[CaneCorso]

I enjoy the story-telling aspect of battlefield kills in the old Chinese “katas,” much more than the silly high flying gymnastics that seem to be popular today.

[Papa]

Maybe I don't get out enough. For me, the gun culture is Jordan, Askins, Skelton, Cirillo, Cooper, McCann and now, Saurez.

There are others. Yeah, most of them are dead. So are the OT prophets. I still read and believe them, too.

[Jim Miller]

Making it complicated is easy...making it simple is another matter.

New shirt idea for the store

Suarez International

The Triquetra

Simple - Not Easy






Jim
ISA 6:8

[Mike OTDP]

I would not say the gun culture is doomed. Certainly not where I live...not with the local club having a two-year backlog of membership applications.

What I find annoying are the people who insist that it's impossible to hit anything with a pistol at a range in excess of fifteen yards. They look at me like I'm a man from Mars when I put up a pistol target at 25 meters...and I'm ticked because they put a berm across the range at that distance and killed my 50 yard capability. Yes, I'm an Old School Precision shooter. And a cranky old Black Powder shooter, too.

Don't get me started on the martial arts. One of the things that impressed me the most about the WT community was reading a discussion of that subject that did not degenerate into a feud between styles and schools. As a student of a traditional Okinawan style (Matsamura Orthodox), that came as a pleasant surprise.

[randyho]

...Succinctly: I would rather be alone than surrounded by idiots. And that is true in all of life.
Exactly this. Garage gym, lots of dry fire, range only at off hours.

[Redneck Zen]

Ditto. Going to the range when no one is around is one of the bennies of being retired. I joined two (both "sportsman's clubs")
so between one or the other I can get what I need.

Lots of dry fire. I'm incorporating Gabe's pistol kata into my routine as well.

This kind of discussion is why I keep coming back to this forum.

[Brent Yamamoto]

What I find annoying are the people who insist that it's impossible to hit anything with a pistol at a range in excess of fifteen yards. They look at me like I'm a man from Mars when I put up a pistol target at 25 meters...and I'm ticked because they put a berm across the range at that distance and killed my 50 yard capability.


I recently met some folks from a local firearms training organization (it was at a knife seminar). They were decent people and we got along fine...became friends with a few via FB and Instagram (networking and all).

So a couple days ago I see a post from a training event they did. The pictures were from the long range portion of their class. Long range meaning 20-30 yards...from prone.

I chose to be polite and not say anything about how in our classes, we take people out to 100 yards, standing.

By the way, Ted and I have a CRG 1 class scheduled in June. This is the beginning fundamentals class...and if circumstances allow, we'll take students out to 100 yards. I continue to see evidence that our "beginner" class offers higher level material than many organizations advanced classes.

[CDX09]

Ditto. Going to the range when no one is around is one of the bennies of being retired. I joined two (both "sportsman's clubs")
so between one or the other I can get what I need.

Lots of dry fire. I'm incorporating Gabe's pistol kata into my routine as well.

This kind of discussion is why I keep coming back to this forum.

Those people are silly. This past weekend, at the meet up, a few of us were consistently hitting steel at 100 yards with pistols. Those pistols ranged from a 10mm revolver, to an FN57, to a G19. Bunch of amateurs.

Edited to add a CZ75, shooting it in DA, at 100 yards consistent.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Greg Nichols]

Those people are silly. This past weekend, at the meet up, a few of us were consistently hitting steel at 100 yards with pistols. Those pistols ranged from a 10mm revolver, to an FN57, to a G19. Bunch of queers.

Edited to add a CZ75, shooting it in DA, at 100 yards consistent.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
fixed it

[EDELWEISS]

I've been around enough instructors at other gun schools to know that I certainly don't fit in....
EXACTLY

[UNO]

Every niche area has stuff like this. The car community. The gun community. The martial arts community. You can keep on going. Nor is it a new phenomenon, I suspect. I think, as pertains to "the gun community", we have several actors:

-The Professional. This is many the SEAL who shoots 100K rounds a year. He doesn't give a damn about TSX vs. GMX, or Eotech vs. Aimpoint. He kills shit. He is given the tools, trained relentlessly, and he kills shit. The "fetishism of the gear", as I call it, would be like you fetishizing over the "weave" of the fibers of your seatbelt. You buckle it every day, it works, motor on. Similar to The Professional.

-The Hobbyist. This person like shooting stuff. In the shower, sometimes they fantasize about storming the castle. Mainly though, they like shooting stuff. UTG, BSA, whatever, it works fine for 'em. They just enjoy the tinkering. They won't be joining any 2A marches, the NRA may or may not be their bag, and it doesn't soak up much of the budget.

-The Poser. This is someone who is seeking to be a part of something. Maybe they got kicked off the SWAT team. Maybe they got a Dishonorable. Maybe they wanted to do SWAT/Police/Military, but couldn't/didn't, so they do all t hey can to emulate these professions. A similar example would be someone faking credentials to be an EMT like one guy I just read about. They may look the part, they may even have some of the skillset, but they aren't THE THING. They also tend to neglect certain things, most often physical fitness. However, it may be something else. Medical training, or something of the like that The Professional would never not have a mastery of. Because The Poser doesn't NEED to master it for an act.

-The Machinist. This is the guy who enjoys machines. He (or she) likely has a list of hobbies, such as watches, sports cars, fly-fishing rods, lathe/machine shop, model planes, you get the idea. Precision instruments and complex mechanisms are interesting to them. Guns are another "machine" to be explored. The Machinist usually has other characteristics mixed in, in varying amounts.

-The hunter. Just what it sounds like. Much like The Professional, except he or she buys their own gear, and uses it for hunting animals of the 4+- legged variety.

-The criminal. Just like the professional, minus the training, usually. The gun is a prop for the rest of their show.

These are the people I've encountered "in the gun community", and most people are a mix. Many Professionals are also Hunters are also Machinists.

My goal has always been to befriend all (except the criminal), and see what improvements can be made (if they are needed) for the sake of the person, and the community. Maybe if I teach the Poser basic medical skills, they could save a life someday? Maybe if I get The Hobbyist more involved, they will support the NRA. Maybe if The Hunter takes a few courses, they would get into medical and or IPSC or something and further the hobby.

Ultimately, it boils down (among law abiding citizens) people who will vote for my freedoms, and theirs, and people who will vote against them. To me, that overshadows their footwear, body odor, etc. and I try every day to create more people who love freedom!

[ZeroTA]

Yesterday we had a "church shoot". It's not in the bulletin, but every couple months we go shoot on a member's private property. While they're all good men, the sheer amount of ignorance, misinformation, and shitty guns is astounding.

[chad newton]

What’s wrong with the criminal????:)

[UNO]

What’s wrong with the criminal????:)

Depends on the type of criminal as to whether its morally reprehensible or just legally reprehensible.

[chad newton]

You know that most every gunfighter in history that is used as an example was a criminal at one point. I want to point that out....

[UNO]

You know that most every gunfighter in history that is used as an example was a criminal at one point. I want to point that out....

Their reputations are also typically far more grandiose than their reality, due to their penchant for self aggrandizement and rumor mills and their lackeys. Eventually the law catches up with them. Billy the Kid is a good example.

That said, there is nothing to say a criminal cannot also be a professional and a machinist or any of the above, as well. Plenty of well trained felons exist. Especially with the GWOT. Look at the former marine truck driver? who shot up those cops in Ceres California with the AK some years ago. Laid a hasty ambush, used mobility, violence of action, depth and angles. Absolutely devastating.

Also as I said, it depends on how you define a criminal. Some things are technically wrong (a 922r violation), while some things are morally wrong (theft). But that's personal.

[Gabriel Suarez]

I do not give two craps about the gun culture collective good or bad. I find most are penny pinching illiterates that probably voted for Obama so they could get free healthcare. I do not identify with the collective and my organization does not service the collective. We are on the fringes and identify with the warrior community whose focus and ethos is not limited by mere "gun ownership".

[Greg Nichols]

I stop resembling the "gun culture" as soon as I take my shirt off at the beach of a private resort in a foreign country. 99% of the gun culture doesn't have my scars, physique, or willingness to spend money on the enjoyment of life.

[Brent Yamamoto]

I think I’d rather debate the merits of 9mm vs 45acp. Which is saying something.

[chad newton]

I think I’d rather debate the merits of 9mm vs 45acp. Which is saying something.
Lol.......

[UNO]

I stop resembling the "gun culture" as soon as I take my shirt off at the beach of a private resort in a foreign country. 99% of the gun culture doesn't have my scars, physique, or willingness to spend money on the enjoyment of life.

Speaking to that, I was amazed at how "average" most of the SEALs and Delta guys I know look, physically, in most regards. My definition of average may be warped, but I remember my first time actually training with people of that ilk, and seeing them drive up in things like Honda Pilots, etc. and get out looking "average". I guess I expected people that looked like the guys I went to college with who were on the powerlifting team or something, I dunno. I guess it was a later-life epiphany for a kid raised on movies like Rambo. Certainly there are guys like that in the single-digit body fat range squatting 2.5x+ their body weight raw, but they are more of an exception than a rule in my admittedly very limited experience.

[Gabriel Suarez]

Speaking to that, I was amazed at how "average" most of the SEALs and Delta guys I know look, physically, in most regards. My definition of average may be warped, but I remember my first time actually training with people of that ilk, and seeing them drive up in things like Honda Pilots, etc. and get out looking "average". I guess I expected people that looked like the guys I went to college with who were on the powerlifting team or something, I dunno. I guess it was a later-life epiphany for a kid raised on movies like Rambo.

Not the ones I know bro. There are the extremes of dad-bod unimpressive, and Mr. Olympia Bodybuilder. Most the go and do people - and specially guys on my staff - tend to look fit, and if they have been careful with their finances, live in nice houses and drive nice cars.

[UNO]

Not the ones I know bro. There are the extremes of dad-bod unimpressive, and Mr. Olympia Bodybuilder. Most the go and do people - and specially guys on my staff - tend to look fit, and if they have been careful with their finances, live in nice houses and drive nice cars.

The guy with a Pilot had money, no doubt. He just didn't really care about vehicles as a status thing, and the Pilot got it done. Hell, I drive a little CX5, and I do fine for myself. Admittedly he was near the end of his active career when I met him, but I did see photos of his early and mid career in South America. I haven't met enough of a cross-section to really comment from "a place of authority", but most of the dozen or so I've trained with looked like Greg with +- some muscle mass here or there. I guess I was expecting (keep in mind I was early 20's) Mr Olympia or at least Mr Swoll Local Gym Guy. It finally clicked after interacting with them though, that the mind was the real weapon, the body, a vehicle.

[Chaos]

I hate the term "gun-culture." We shouldn't even use it here. I am what I am and consider firearms to simply be "one" of my many tools. I do, however, believe in "Warrior Culture", which there aren't a lot of these days -- statistically speaking.

[Gabriel Suarez]

https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTUwMFgxNTAw/z/9kgAAOSwk~NZv74m/$_57.JPG?set_id=8800005007

[UNO]

I hate the term "gun-culture." We shouldn't even use it here. I am what I am and consider firearms to simply be "one" of my many tools. I do, however, believe in "Warrior Culture", which there aren't a lot of these days -- statistically speaking.

I feel like the community ("People who own guns") should be more inclusive, so long as it's safe, and legal. My reason for this is not some random misguided altruism, but rather, a desire to keep firearms legal. There is a strength in voting block numbers. Gun Control has been turned into a partisan issue, and it's absolutely NOT. It's an issue of freedom as a law abiding American Citizen. The more fractured a front gun ownership presents, the easier it is to destroy the rights thereof. Hell, I embrace that 300# slob who has a Wal-Mart purchased Mini-14 and wants to safely run some rounds through it from the bench at the range. That guy is gonna probably vote the same way I will. I don't have to do as he does with his training regimen (or lack), or endorse his anything. That's one place I feel that the liberals are a step ahead. They seem to eat their own a bit less, and it's cost a lot, and on several occasions the 2A has hung on by a thread.

Making fun of the slob, pointing out how "inadequate" his gear is (while it accomplishes "his mission" flawlessly...). What purpose does that serve? Using criticism to be perceived as an expert ultimately undermines. Hell, who's to say the slob wouldn't enjoy simply being treated politely and ask about my diet, training routine, or gear, and adopt better habits? Lift others up, when feasible, I guess is what I'm trying to accomplish with my life. At some point or another, we were all worse off than we are, now, and each one of us can probably point to that parent, brother, teacher, friend, mentor who was the turning point that set us on our path. If I can do that for someone, and much more, if I can do that for someone who will preserve my rights, I call it a win! We lament the warrior culture's demise while at the same time isolating others, sometimes, is how it seems quite often.

[Gabriel Suarez]

I do not have to be inclusive. There is a price for excellence and a price for admission. And it is not a finacial price it is a self selective price. Youy decide to overeat, to swill a six-pack and sit on the couch...instead of exercising and eating right. Including equals validating and I will not validate poor choices. I no longer care about "politics". The 300 pound slob with the Kel-Tec and the picture of Zimmerman in his pocket will vote for the left because they will give him free stuff. Just as over 40% of Christians (who should know better) voted for Obama, I will bet an equal number of "gun owners" voted for him for free health care. I am not eating my own as you say...simply being selective about who is "my own", and having bought a Lorcin 25 does not make them that.


I feel like the community ("People who own guns") should be more inclusive, so long as it's safe, and legal. My reason for this is not some random misguided altruism, but rather, a desire to keep firearms legal. There is a strength in voting block numbers. Gun Control has been turned into a partisan issue, and it's absolutely NOT. It's an issue of freedom as a law abiding American Citizen. The more fractured a front gun ownership presents, the easier it is to destroy the rights thereof. Hell, I embrace that 300# slob who has a Wal-Mart purchased Mini-14 and wants to safely run some rounds through it from the bench at the range. That guy is gonna probably vote the same way I will. I don't have to do as he does with his training regimen (or lack), or endorse his anything. That's one place I feel that the liberals are a step ahead. They seem to eat their own a bit less, and it's cost a lot, and on several occasions the 2A has hung on by a thread.

Making fun of the slob, pointing out how "inadequate" his gear is (while it accomplishes "his mission" flawlessly...). What purpose does that serve? Using criticism to be perceived as an expert ultimately undermines. Hell, who's to say the slob wouldn't enjoy simply being treated politely and ask about my diet, training routine, or gear, and adopt better habits? Lift others up, when feasible, I guess is what I'm trying to accomplish with my life. At some point or another, we were all worse off than we are, now, and each one of us can probably point to that parent, brother, teacher, friend, mentor who was the turning point that set us on our path. If I can do that for someone, and much more, if I can do that for someone who will preserve my rights, I call it a win! We lament the warrior culture's demise while at the same time isolating others, sometimes, is how it seems quite often.

[Chaos]

Yep...to add to what Gabe was mentioning, I know a lot of gun owners who are avid hunters, but believe in gun rights being limited due to their not feeling that Joe Citizen should have one of those mean old "assault" rifles that all the bad guys have.

I don't make any assumptions at all when it comes to people and their gun rights beliefs. I let them know what mine are and then they can either tell me theirs or not. But, to believe that what they say to you necessarily follows into what they do inside the voting booth is an assumption I won't make.

Besides, I don't like to throw the title of "Warrior" out there very often, because in my opinion, there really aren't that many -- especially many of them that call themselves one.

[Dorkface]

I think I’d rather debate the merits of 9mm vs 45acp. Which is saying something.

Yep...

[Chaos]

I think I’d rather debate the merits of 9mm vs 45acp. Which is saying something.

I'd much rather debate the fact that people don't put enough emphasis on dry-firing and shot placement. The lost and dying art.

But, then again, people think that dry-firing is boring and not necessary....

[Greg Nichols]

Speaking to that, I was amazed at how "average" most of the SEALs and Delta guys I know look, physically, in most regards. My definition of average may be warped, but I remember my first time actually training with people of that ilk, and seeing them drive up in things like Honda Pilots, etc. and get out looking "average". I guess I expected people that looked like the guys I went to college with who were on the powerlifting team or something, I dunno. I guess it was a later-life epiphany for a kid raised on movies like Rambo. Certainly there are guys like that in the single-digit body fat range squatting 2.5x+ their body weight raw, but they are more of an exception than a rule in my admittedly very limited experience.

Most of the Teams guys I've worked and trained with are like 19 year old girls when it comes to their physique. If they put on a couple of pounds or eat sugary garbage in front of their mates, they are ridiculed. Hell, even one I know who's in his 50s and retired after 30 years with the teams was still lean. Now I'm not saying all are jacked and tan. Some have runner's builds, some have lifter's builds, some are tall and lean with big legs like Sua, some are short and thick like me. None I have met, trained with, worked with, or befriended have the bulky man-fetus. I'm not talking about single digit body fat but I'm not talking about skinny/fat beta males or rotund blimps either. They are guys like me that can strap on a 65# ruck and knock out 12 miles in less time than you can watch Black Hawk Down on Netflix.

I and those like me, Gabe, Brent, SUA, and those I consider to be "like me" have made the conscious decision to NOT be average or mediocre, why would I choose to identify with those who have not.

[Brent Yamamoto]

That was sarcasm for those that don’t recognize it.

[Chaos]

That was sarcasm for those that don’t recognize it.

Gotcha...I get a little fidgety when people are STILL bringing that issue up as often as they do.

As I always tell them, it really does't matter the caliber since you can't hit anything you shoot at!

[Gabriel Suarez]

Tired nonsense that I thought we were done with.

1). Caliber wars
2). Anything vs. Glocks
3). Don't talk to the cops
4). Stand and deliver vs shooting and moving
5). Anything with "THE CAUSE" in it.
6). Anything with "WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE" in it

[chad newton]

I decided to delete my last comment because it was probably inappropriate to a snowflake, so I think that you will never change peoples minds. People come here wanting to learn and add to thier lifestyle in learning to be the best gunfighter they can possibly be. Not change hearts and minds politically. I could care less about what anyone else thinks that is out of my very small circle of people......

[BillyOblivion]

Gun Control has been turned into a partisan issue, and it's absolutely NOT. It's an issue of freedom as a law abiding American Citizen.

I don't know what you've been paying attention to, but *freedom* has become a partisan issue.

I want more people owning and (responsibly) using firearms because as you noted it makes it easier to keep them legal.

But it ends there.