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JonathanNobody
02-26-2018, 04:34 PM
When the latest mass shooting occurred I was on-duty as a Patrol Sergeant.. I figured I'd get a call from the School Resource Officer within a few days as the school district to which he's assigned would be up in arms over security measures and first response techniques - never mind the fact we'd been teaching and practicing them with this same school district for years dating back to when I headed a CT unit.

The call came and it threw Command into a re-hash of old issues, such as:


What are our protocols?
Do we go in by oneself or wait for additional manpower?
How do non-uniformed response personnel identify themselves?
What are the communications protocols and logistic issues?
What training is available?



We had, have, and will continue to have, answers to all but the third question...which, in Command's wisdom, has yet to be addressed.

So, to that end, since we all know plain clothed officers will be arriving on-scene and/or making their own entry we need to take those issues into account. No, I don't have answers for identification techniques, although we have addressed them here before. That's an open topic and perhaps could use some discussion.

The interesting thing, really interesting in my opinion, is now we have an agency-wide order (not a suggestion) to be armed off-duty and capable of response. That means the ability to use that Glock 43, Springfield XDS, or S&W Shield must be up to standard with which to make an entry into an active shooter incident.

When Brent and I used Springfield XDSs for the last have of a Complete Pistol Handgun Class this is what I had in mind. We proved, time and time again, the XDS was an offensive weapon capable of center of chest hits to 150 yards. We've discussed the byproducts of learning to use a "small duty handgun" or "back-up pistol" to a higher standard, those being:


Confidence
Ability to always have a weapon despite NPE criteria
Ability to replace loss of larger, primary pistol with smaller, primary pistols with zero loss of on-target delivery



We've been through these questions before. We've discussed the equipment before. Now we have greater contextualization and necessity to develop skill sets. Yes, I'd prefer my RMR'd Glock 34 or Glock 41; however, there are simply times when carrying a full-sized pistol isn't going to happen. For those times, and since response is mandated by protocol, order and conscience, one must be confident engaging an AR15-armed suspect at 50 yards with a 6 shot XDS, Shield, etc.....simply a fact of life.

My agency numbers in the thousands and when those bodies begin to arrive on-scene a plan needs to already be in place. I don't see a plan so far, but at least the minds are considering it.

J

Gabriel Suarez
02-26-2018, 04:43 PM
Imho...the first step is that we live in a time of war...even off duty...and to be armed accordingly.

JDoza
02-26-2018, 05:13 PM
Imho...the first step is that we live in a time of war...even off duty...and to be armed accordingly.

Absolutely! Hit the gym after work, carried along a small duffel that had the water bottle, towel, pistol w/ 3 spare mags, TQ, credentials, cell phone... I hate carrying that way but StrongLifts Program prevents AIWB. I never leave the house unarmed....


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Ryan Taylor
02-26-2018, 06:31 PM
My agency suggested yellow reflective tape on the guns. Might help, requires maintenance though. I'm sure you all know this, mostly for those who don't.

I have a question that I have not received a satisfying answer to:

If you shoot said bad guy armed with ar/ak, do you pick up his gun and use it since it's better than a xds, and risk being confused as the shooter, or not?

I think I would but am not sure how I could get 'victims' to not panick and run the other way. Which may not matter. I understand the assumed risk involved.

If this has been discussed before via blog or thread, I would be happy to read it.

Thank you.

callmebubba
02-26-2018, 07:24 PM
Want to completely agree with JN that just because the gun is small doesn’t mean you should settle for paper plate sized groups at 5 yards because “that’s what it’s for...” We can’t always be ready for anything but you should be as capable as possible with what you’ll likely have.

That said, given the circumstances, I think what Gabe says is even more accurate. If you might get called to an active shooter situation while you’re picking up your dry cleaning it’s probably better to have your 19 and be less comfortable (especially when legal) than your 43.

JonathanNobody
02-26-2018, 08:07 PM
I believe while we would all prefer a full-sized fighting pistol we must be prepared and proficient with less. If one can’t draw a 26, 43, XDS or Shield from an ankle holster and score a center of mass hit at 150 then there is work to be done. Back-up pistols are just that - a back-up; however, one could argue the pistol in general is the same to a rifle. What proficiency with less ideal hardware gives is confidence with ideal hardware.

If you show up to an active shooter situation with an XDS and two spare five round magazines your duty is no less diminished than if you had a Colt M4 and full kit.

EDELWEISS
02-27-2018, 05:31 AM
One thing that I think has to be done is qualifications at longer ranges (and BTW with more rounds). Most PDs never qualify with handguns beyond 25yards and BTW many officers groan about shooting even a few rounds at that distance. Perhaps in addition to Day and Night quals with Duty and Off Duty guns, there should also be "long distance" (say 50m) quals with both guns--hell Id even be happy with just familiarization rounds at longer ranges.

PD quals (at least around here), have gone from 50rnds of practice and 50 rounds of actual qualification; now range day is 30 rounds period. Yes they do add some video simulation "shooting" but not enough to do more then fail the "shoot" and never a re-do to "learn from your mistakes". Shotguns are now "optional" after initial training and once off probation status (the idea being to eventually phase out the shotgun). The PDs around here also only issue rifles to maybe 30% of the officers. Its all part of the "dumbing down" or "Cowering down" of police to turn them into SJWs with guns. Clearly its NOT all PDs but its also not limited to BLUE states. At the same time they are turning cops into Social Workers instead of Warriors, they are also indoctrinating the "Us/Them" (Cops VS Citizens) at a much higher level then even 10 years ago--its the same concept that all SJWs think they know better than you.

Cops need to be Warriors first, they can hug all the kids and homeless and and and AFTER the fight. Take a look at the next Cop you see, is he or she or or or the one you want protecting you from bad guys. MANY are warriors, MANY do face down killers and rapist and drug dealers and pedophiles everyday BUT sadly far too many are there because Police Chiefs and Sheriffs needed a RAINBOW Department to satisfy liberals

Gabriel Suarez
02-27-2018, 05:52 AM
I believe while we would all prefer a full-sized fighting pistol we must be prepared and proficient with less.

I agree 100%. The issue I have is that most guys that carry Shields and XDS and Glock 43s (because that is all they can conceal off duty) could very easily carry a Glock 19 sized weapon if they only left those skinny jeans and Justin Beaver t-shirts at home and dressed for the weapon.

The only time I carry less than a 19 sized weapon is if I am wearing a suit or some sort of socially required attire that makes carry of the 19 size impossible. Otherwise I have always dressed for the weapon. Gun first - clothing second, and it doesn't make anything uncomfortable.

And if all I had was a Beretta 25 auto I would be thankful for it and still kill the bad guy with it...but boy oh boy would that Glock 17 make my job easier.

Papa
02-27-2018, 06:08 AM
My NPEs are safe queens. Until I hang up my spurs, that's where they'll stay. I carry the same sidearm and backup on duty and off.

Simplifies decisionmaking and maintains lethality.

I don't keep a long gun or the equivalent in my POV, so I have to fight with what's on me.

That being said, the need to maintain proficiency with firearms you own or are likely to encounter remains.

Greg Nichols
02-27-2018, 07:36 AM
I have a question that I have not received a satisfying answer to:

If you shoot said bad guy armed with ar/ak, do you pick up his gun and use it since it's better than a xds, and risk being confused as the shooter, or not?

I think I would but am not sure how I could get 'victims' to not panick and run the other way. Which may not matter. I understand the assumed risk involved.



I don't have time to find it but yes we have discussed this at length. My initial reaction was that I would like to have my hands on the long gun but through the discussion the determination was that the increased likelihood of being shot by the good guys outweighed the benefits of having the long gun. Disable it if you have a second and move on or just move on.

Gabriel Suarez
02-27-2018, 07:40 AM
http://blog.suarezinternational.com/

odin0311
02-27-2018, 08:32 AM
On non uniformed identification...

I saw a study from Kansas City Mo PD a few years ago on this. I think their department is around 1,000 officers and they had cause to look into reduction of blue on blue regarding on duty cops and plain clothes. The short of the story is a badge hanging around the neck significantly reduced blue on blue. Most people are trained center mass chest targeting, they'll notice the badge there, but not on the belt where many used to carry them right next to the holster. Their evaluation process began by running their cops through training with no shoot plain clothes targets without neck badges and tracked the percentage of engagements on those no shoot targets. Then it was compared to the engagements on no shoots with neck badges. It's been a few years since I saw the numbers but it was something like 30% proper ID on non neck badge no shoots and 95% proper ID on the neck badges. It was drastically compelling data, enough so that I switched mine to a neck chain and that's how I intend to visually identify myself in plain clothes.

The idea is to have some sort of visual indicator that will cause enough processing delay when you're seen by responding LE to avoid being immediately shot.

apamburn
02-27-2018, 09:27 AM
Doesn't help non-LE.

Gabe has some really good blogs on this topic. Looking the part and moving like you know what you are doing help. So does a semi covert carry like covered sul.

odin0311
02-27-2018, 09:40 AM
If it meant being a good guy and not getting smoked I'd buy a security/CCW/US Citizen badge. What's written on it is irrelevant. What matters is it will indicate you are not the problem on scene and a dialogue will be the initial option instead of a volley of bullets.
Doesn't help non-LE.

Gabe has some really good blogs on this topic. Looking the part and moving like you know what you are doing help. So does a semi covert carry like covered sul.

Gabriel Suarez
02-27-2018, 09:48 AM
Don't look like a thug
Don't have a thug hairstyle or dress like a hip hop dude.
Don't use guns like AKs or even ARs at this point
The more you look like LE, the less likely you will be to get shot by mistake
Bad guy will be shooting randomly...good guy will be shooting bad guy...actions tell alot.
Look around...see the LE before they see you and act accordingly
Forget low readies and any ready that protrudes the weapon away from you. Either be shooting or keep the weapon close and tight.
Don't point in and hold anyone at gunpoint...shoot them to the ground and then fade into a covered spot or a tight hidden Sul. You are not there to arrest anyone.
If you see the LE moving toward you gun goes on the deck and hands go in the air...your "rights" don't mean shit at first contact...do as you are told.
Yell "POLICE" when you see them. "OFF DUTY POLICE - DONT SHOOT - I AM A GOOD GUY" And it doesn't mean squat if you are not the police...act like you are.

All this worked for me many many times while many of the modern gun pundits were still waiting for the nuts to drop into their hairless sacks.

Brent Yamamoto
02-27-2018, 09:57 AM
I think tactics will always be the key to avoiding being shot by LE.

*Not to looking like a dirtbag or terrorist.
*Using cover/concealment effectively when available.
*Obscuring the gun as much as possible when not shooting: using SUL, covering the gun with a hat or support hand, holding inside a jacket, etc.
*Communications - "DON'T SHOOT, I'M A GOOD GUY"

That said, a wallet on a chain wouldn't hurt if there is time to deploy it. Agree with odin, it doesn't matter what's written on it, doesn't matter that a guy isn't LE. Any bit of doubt we can put into responding officers, or other civilians for that mater, is in our favor.

The key is how much time do you have? I wouldn't waste precious seconds if I needed them, but if there were a few seconds to spare in a proactive event, why not?

I'll have to think about this. I'm not carrying some ridiculous CCW badge, but maybe something else makes some sense.

apamburn
02-27-2018, 10:08 AM
If it meant being a good guy and not getting smoked I'd buy a security/CCW/US Citizen badge. What's written on it is irrelevant. What matters is it will indicate you are not the problem on scene and a dialogue will be the initial option instead of a volley of bullets.

Yeah....I don't think I'll be getting a "ccw badge."

Greg Nichols
02-27-2018, 10:15 AM
I'm honestly far less concerned with LEO contact as much as I am another CCWer that snaps a shot at me like a dumbass and I smoke him out of reflex.

Dorkface
02-27-2018, 10:23 AM
I'm honestly far less concerned with LEO contact as much as I am another CCWer that snaps a shot at me like a dumbass and I smoke him out of reflex.

Yeah. Sadly they could be the most unpredictable danger.

JonathanNobody
02-27-2018, 10:34 AM
Were I non-law enforcement and I were entangled in an active shooter response, inside the location or out, I'd be sure to ask the Deputy or Officer if they wanted me there. They say no, then I have no coverage whatsoever and I'm meddling. They say yes and I'm then covered by that agency for criminal, civil and medical issued arising out of my aiding they're request.

Gabriel Suarez
02-27-2018, 11:00 AM
Good point J. If LE are there are either staging or about to hunt and its clear they are undermanned, absolutely. I will be the first there offering (and in language they can understand not like that doofus in Vegas).

If they already have a full force unit on site...dont bother...they neither need you nor want you.

Its those where you just happen to be at ground zero before even the first call is made....

patriot3386
02-27-2018, 11:25 AM
I expect the answer to my question will be a big fat old "it depends," but here it is anyway...

How likely would on-duty LEO be to accept help from an armed citizen? If it's my kid's school, I'm going in anyway (qualification - I can imagine that if LEO's are already preparing to enter, steamrolling them to get inside would be counter-productive for both me and them). That being said, unless we immediately size each other up as a doofus/jackass/Fudd, I would think going in with a "battle buddy" is preferred.

I'm also aware there's much more risk here for the LEO than for me - the LEO might be a badass, but I imagine he would regard most citizens as "not likely a warrior."

Never been LE, just curious what the experienced LEO's on here think.

JonathanNobody
02-27-2018, 11:31 AM
I expect the answer to my question will be a big fat old "it depends," but here it is anyway...

How likely would on-duty LEO be to accept help from an armed citizen? If it's my kid's school, I'm going in anyway (qualification - I can imagine that if LEO's are already preparing to enter, steamrolling them to get inside would be counter-productive for both me and them). That being said, unless we immediately size each other up as a doofus/jackass/Fudd, I would think going in with a "battle buddy" is preferred.

I'm also aware there's much more risk here for the LEO than for me - the LEO might be a badass, but I imagine he would regard most citizens as "not likely a warrior."

Never been LE, just curious what the experienced LEO's on here think.

I can only give you my opinion, but I'd welcome the extra gun. I would, however, "tell" you to go with me so you're covered.

Remember that old word in the westerns - deputize?? We use it more often than you think.

Actually, not to sell yourself short on coverage for your deputized actions, if I ask you to get out of your car to help me push the stalled car from the street you've been deputized and are covered. If I ask you to grab that guy running away from me you've been deputized. If I ask you to go in an active shooter scene with me you've been deputized.

So, simply put, Greg, Brent and Gabe and I are eating dinner and we see something uncool happening and I say to Brent, "Hey, come with me and lets see what's happening." Guess what? Brent works from me and is covered. I only have people raise their right hand or touch my badge when they're drunk and I divorce them. In all other instances, it can simple be, "Hey, I need you to do this for me. Go."

Brent Yamamoto
02-27-2018, 11:41 AM
I'm sure it varies by location/department. Jonathan's response doesn't surprise me...but I would be surprised if that flies in the Seattle area.

Also, it seems that whether or not the officer knows you and your capabilities would be a factor.

Greg Nichols
02-27-2018, 11:52 AM
why does Brent get to go? He has all the fun.

JonathanNobody
02-27-2018, 11:56 AM
I'm sure it varies by location/department. Jonathan's response doesn't surprise me...but I would be surprised if that flies in the Seattle area.

Also, it seems that whether or not the officer knows you and your capabilities would be a factor.

Brent,

I phone a friend in Washington at USMS and here's his answer to deputization:

RCWs > Title 9A > Chapter 9A.76 > Section 9A.76.030

9A.76.027 << 9A.76.030 >> 9A.76.040

RCW 9A.76.030
Refusing to summon aid for a peace officer.
(1) A person is guilty of refusing to summon aid for a peace officer if, upon request by a person he or she knows to be a peace officer, he or she unreasonably refuses or fails to summon aid for such peace officer.
(2) Refusing to summon aid for a peace officer is a misdemeanor.
[ 2011 c 336 § 398; 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.76.030.]

I'd ask Papa, but it seems you guys are good to go as well. This came from Washington State Code.

J

Gabriel Suarez
02-27-2018, 12:01 PM
So here is what I would do - and I know how the system works, have lived through the best and the worst of it, and can ride it like a champion surfer if I need to.

Scenario One: I drive up to the kid's school and see four grown and badged fat men cowering behind cover. I walk up and ask them, "What's going on guys?" They say, "There is an active shooter in the school killing kids and we are waiting for back up". My response is to say...good...you wait I will go in and kill the shooter for you. That is exactly my response and if it means some jail time, its no big deal to me...but I bet that will not be the outcome. Salient point - BAD GUY CONTROLS THE SCENE NOT THE POLICE.

Scenario Two: I see minimal LE getting ready to go in. "Hey guys...retired SWAT...I have nothing planned this afternoon...if you need an extra man, I am at your service".

Scenario Three: I see a full SWAT team, perimeter, the entire 9 yards, I stay out of it since nobody wants nor needs my help and I am too late to offer anything. Salient point: THE POLICE ARE IN NUMBERS AND CONTROL THE SCENE, NOT THE BAD GUY.

Scenario Four: I am on scene as the event kicks off and I hear the first rounds fired. Salient point: I AM IN CONTROL OF THAT EVENT - NOT THE POLICE AND UNKNOWINGLY NOT THE BAD GUY.

It really is that simple.

odin0311
02-27-2018, 12:13 PM
I tell every ride along that doesn't appear to be a useless doofus if I'm getting tuned up they better help me out. After a few minutes of finding out their background and getting a feel for their abilities I'll generally give them a run down of what to do if I'm in trouble to include accessing long guns and what to say on the radio. I've been the grateful recipient of public help on duty before. That said, first on scene on at an active shooter I would much rather take the citizen with me as an impromptu battle buddy. My agency doesn't ride two man so anybody that could watch my back on the hunt till more brothers arrived is fine by me. I imagine there would come a point where said citizen is replaced and directed to stand down. The reality is a pissed off armed person with a vested interested in the form of a loved one at risk isn't likely to wait around unless the campus is swarmed with responders. Better off taking them with you. If you look like a force multiplier that would definitely influence acceptance of your help.
I expect the answer to my question will be a big fat old "it depends," but here it is anyway...

How likely would on-duty LEO be to accept help from an armed citizen? If it's my kid's school, I'm going in anyway (qualification - I can imagine that if LEO's are already preparing to enter, steamrolling them to get inside would be counter-productive for both me and them). That being said, unless we immediately size each other up as a doofus/jackass/Fudd, I would think going in with a "battle buddy" is preferred.

I'm also aware there's much more risk here for the LEO than for me - the LEO might be a badass, but I imagine he would regard most citizens as "not likely a warrior."

Never been LE, just curious what the experienced LEO's on here think.

Brent Yamamoto
02-27-2018, 12:16 PM
why does Brent get to go? He has all the fun.

Don't worry, I'd take you with me. It's a little cramped but you'll fit in my pack.

apamburn
02-27-2018, 12:27 PM
Don't worry, I'd take you with me. It's a little cramped but you'll fit in my pack.

No pack needed; proper TTP should be the Tactical Piggyback.

55077

Papa
02-27-2018, 12:28 PM
You offer, I size you up, you're coming with me.

Be ready to run, wingman.

Just keep the bogies off my six.

Brent Yamamoto
02-27-2018, 12:29 PM
You offer, I size you up, you're coming with me.

Be ready to run, wingman.

Just keep the bogies off my six.

How common is that sentiment among your peers? In your department leadership?

Papa
02-27-2018, 12:30 PM
Absent.

patriot3386
02-27-2018, 12:41 PM
Much appreciated gents. Great insights as always.

Also, Greg's nickname makes me think his response to a school shooting would look something like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3jk_wd7Byk

odin0311
02-27-2018, 01:01 PM
Common sentiment depends on your local apparently. Where I am, among those with a combat mindset it is shared. Think prior service vets, swat, and those that train on their own time and dime. A lot of millenials are slow to grasp we've been at war for 17 years and there are a lot of capable experienced people out in the communities. They're kinda oblivious of their own combat prowess and mortality. Among leadership? I think mine would be neutral on it but who cares, they won't be there till the dust settles.
How common is that sentiment among your peers? In your department leadership?

PastorM
02-27-2018, 01:13 PM
I just had a discussion with the school administrator this morning. I'm the pastor of the church right across the street from my kids school. If there's a shooting I'm likely to hear it before the call goes out to 911. The church is part of the school's plan for evacuation and I'm now on record with school admin as being a resource with a gun. This is a very small town ... the county Sheriff and some of his deputies know me ... but not all of them. I'd like to change that, perhaps in the context of putting on a TASI course here including some of the churches and school's people who would be likely security resources as well as the Sheriff's team.

Greg Nichols
02-27-2018, 01:42 PM
Much appreciated gents. Great insights as always.

Also, Greg's nickname makes me think his response to a school shooting would look something like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3jk_wd7Byk

Ya, good luck with me not taking lead inside of a structure. It would be fast, fluid, and lethal.

Greg Nichols
02-27-2018, 01:43 PM
I just had a discussion with the school administrator this morning. I'm the pastor of the church right across the street from my kids school. If there's a shooting I'm likely to hear it before the call goes out to 911. The church is part of the school's plan for evacuation and I'm now on record with school admin as being a resource with a gun. This is a very small town ... the county Sheriff and some of his deputies know me ... but not all of them. I'd like to change that, perhaps in the context of putting on a TASI course here including some of the churches and school's people who would be likely security resources as well as the Sheriff's team.

I'll come and add some cqb too

Brent Yamamoto
02-27-2018, 01:49 PM
Absent.

Kinda what I expected.

They are lucky to have you.

Brightlightman
02-27-2018, 03:47 PM
It would be fast, fluid, and lethal.

That's what she said!

LawDog
02-27-2018, 05:12 PM
So here is what I would do - and I know how the system works, have lived through the best and the worst of it, and can ride it like a champion surfer if I need to.

Scenario One: I drive up to the kid's school and see four grown and badged fat men cowering behind cover. I walk up and ask them, "What's going on guys?" They say, "There is an active shooter in the school killing kids and we are waiting for back up". My response is to say...good...you wait I will go in and kill the shooter for you. That is exactly my response and if it means some jail time, its no big deal to me...but I bet that will not be the outcome. Salient point - BAD GUY CONTROLS THE SCENE NOT THE POLICE.

Scenario Two: I see minimal LE getting ready to go in. "Hey guys...retired SWAT...I have nothing planned this afternoon...if you need an extra man, I am at your service".

Scenario Three: I see a full SWAT team, perimeter, the entire 9 yards, I stay out of it since nobody wants nor needs my help and I am too late to offer anything. Salient point: THE POLICE ARE IN NUMBERS AND CONTROL THE SCENE, NOT THE BAD GUY.

Scenario Four: I am on scene as the event kicks off and I hear the first rounds fired. Salient point: I AM IN CONTROL OF THAT EVENT - NOT THE POLICE AND UNKNOWINGLY NOT THE BAD GUY.

It really is that simple.This mostly plays the same for non-LE, too. One, three, and four get the same response from me. Two may differ, depending on the AO and the particular cop on scene. If you volunteer, just be willing to accept the answer no. Even if the answer is no, you can let the on-scene cop know that you are there and you have some limited medical capability.

To avoid getting shot, appearance factors in enormously, as does your movement and gun-handling. If you move like a pro, you are more likely to be perceived as one of the good guys.

Police doctrine to avoid fratricide has evolved through the years. In the 80s, most guys clipped their badge to their belt near the gun. This was based on the idea that someone who saw the gun would see the badge. It didn't work very well. In the 90s, the doctrine evolved to wearing badges on a chain around the neck. If you aim center mass, then you are more likely to see the badge. But this, too, is far from perfect. Lately, the idea has begun to spread that you should hold your credentials high in the air with your non-dominant hand. This requires having a free hand, and isn't good during dynamic movement, but it does achieve the goal of being more visible.

I had the realization that this would actually work pretty well for non-LE, as well. You don't need a stupid CCW badge. If you were just holding your wallet in the air when a uniformed cop came around the corner, your unique posture would likely be enough to cause him to pause for a moment and hold fire. That initial moment is the most important one. If you survive that first second, you'll probably make it the rest of the way.

Another way to improve your odds is with an authoritative, "Police!," shouted intermittently. Later you may need to explain that you were calling for police help, not attempting to identify yourself as police. Regardless of whether you are really believed, it can help to avoid getting shot.

Gabriel Suarez
02-27-2018, 05:38 PM
Later you may need to explain that you were calling for police help, not attempting to identify yourself as police. .

I was having a flashback

paknheat
02-27-2018, 07:31 PM
I just had a discussion with the school administrator this morning. I'm the pastor of the church right across the street from my kids school. If there's a shooting I'm likely to hear it before the call goes out to 911. The church is part of the school's plan for evacuation and I'm now on record with school admin as being a resource with a gun. This is a very small town ... the county Sheriff and some of his deputies know me ... but not all of them. I'd like to change that, perhaps in the context of putting on a TASI course here including some of the churches and school's people who would be likely security resources as well as the Sheriff's team.

You’re my kinda Pastor.


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