Legal Seminar-Firearms Laws

[EDELWEISS]

I went to a legal seminar about firearms law last week. If nothing else it convinced me I am right to be moving out of Maryland. The seminar was hosted by one of those "We'll defend you" insurance plans. It was free, so I guess you get what you pay for; but like the free stuff you get when you go a "Time Share" dinner at the beach, you have to listen to a LOT of shit for a free meal....

To start off they had an attorney Ive heard of but never dealt with from my years as a cop. He began with an unlikely but I suppose plausible scenario that ends with you shooting a bad guy. Then he says call 911 and call "us" (the legal plan) immediately after). OK I was fine with that so far... EXCEPT he follows that with, DONT SAY ANYTHING to the police. (in fairness that's what I used to preach; but that was years ago before Ive seen for my self the stupidity of that maneuver). IF you are even close to being justified, then you absolutely MUST convince the first officers THAT YOU ARE THE VICTIM. Not talking, "lawyering up" almost always makes you an asshole to the officer. Cops are used to assholes and it almost always never ends well for assholes. Sure you should have a lawyer--no question BUT you need to be the guy the cops see as a GOOD GUY. You need to be they guy the cops think that they would have done the same thing.

Chances are the call will come late in the shift (it always did for me), and chances are the cop had something to go home to, even if it was just internet porn; but that cop will not have planned to be working for the next 20+ hours to "work a shooting", especially not one he wasn't involved with doing the actual shooting. That cop, has a boss (actually a few bosses) he has to please AND he wont be going home UNTIL the report is done. Hes not there for YOU, not unless you make him realize you were the good guy, the cool guy, the guy maybe he even wishes he was; because you were the guy that "popped a cap in that shithead laying over there". Once that cop starts writing, hes either gonna put your name down as a Victim or a SUSPECT and once that report is done and approved by the bosses, it will take Jesus in his Heaven to change it. Then THAT report will get submitted to the States Attorney, who wont "know" what really happen; but they will KNOW what the REPORT says.

The seminar lawyer couldn't understand that. He insisted that HE should be the one to tell the police. Well, that would be fine IF he gets to the scene BEFORE the police--whats the chances of that??? Sure you should listen to your attorney; but you then need to make good adult decisions. Those decisions will determine who goes home AFTER the shooting. Remember the attorney will go home, the officer will eventually go home--both of them might even have sex when they get there; but what you say, and how you say it, will decide IF you go home (and how much you want the sex that's coming....).

Theres more if your interested

[barnetmill]

I listened to a local gun rights lawyers and he also said not to say anything. He was speaking as a featured speaker at my local shooting club about 2 months ago.

[Walk-Softly]

Has this topic been beaten to death? The answer is articulation of why x-activity happened that resulted in y- result. It will be situational based on a thousand different permutations.

Since Maryland is the location, I guess I would want to go have an in-depth discussion with my counselor before offering up my story to anyone who answers to a States Attorney like Baltimore’s Marilyn Moseby. In a situation where justice is not blind and more likely gunning for you due to a pigment deficiency or unreasonable belief in self preservation, a well-reasoned and rehearsed articulation for the record would be the most prudent approach. The “I need to go to the hospital because of (insert health issue) and I need to be treated before I can give a statement” approach would be a good default.

google tells me Maryland still has a duty to retreat law. That would make me double down on “I invoke my right to counsel, and I reserve my right to make a statement at a future point.” Not lawyering up might be the right play in a stand your ground state.

Personally, I would be able to testify that I have read Force Science News for a decade. Their evidence-based police shooting investigation guidelines recommend several days to an investigative (criminal) interview, involved officers review any recordings/scene summaries before interviewing and that noncoercive techniques be used... “You know, the Intl Assoc. of Police Chiefs have endorsed that process for interviewing similarly-situated cops, so shouldn’t I have a similar opportunity...”. I would demand that same reasonable investigatory standard for me as a disabled guy scared out of his wits and compelled to use deadly force. “I want make sure that I am healthy enough and have good legal advice before I make a statement, officer. I understand you need to write your report but my recollection will be clearer after reviewing the initial investigative report and having a few days to reconstruct in my mind.”

i have been on the law dog side of this. It is all good to be a victim, but sometimes you will not be dealt that card to play. Police officers have been extended a series of favorable court cases that reduce their exposure to peril in most duty shootings. The average joe has only a lot of opportunities to be railroaded and a handful of chances to get it right. My job is not to make the officers’ report easy but to get home to my family.

[golucky]

Glad this thread came up and I'm very fortunate that Gabe went into this part of the lecture of Killing Within the Law segment during his recent Houston class. And then, it was reinforced by another class formulated by the Texas DPS for "State Certified Active Shooter Training Course".

[EDELWEISS]

Has this topic been beaten to death? The answer is articulation of why x-activity happened that resulted in y- result. It will be situational based on a thousand different permutations.

Well we certainly agree on the articulation part

Since Maryland is the location, I guess I would want to go have an in-depth discussion with my counselor before offering up my story to anyone who answers to a States Attorney like Baltimore’s Marilyn Moseby. In a situation where justice is not blind and more likely gunning for you due to a pigment deficiency or unreasonable belief in self preservation, a well-reasoned and rehearsed articulation for the record would be the most prudent approach. The “I need to go to the hospital because of (insert health issue) and I need to be treated before I can give a statement” approach would be a good default.

OK go ahead and demand to talk to your attorney. I'll stop asking questions THEN when I'm no longer listening to you Ill make my own decisions based on what I see and BTW what I don't see AND when your not talking, I'll write my report AFTER I PUT YOU IN THE SUSPECT BLOCK YOU CAN TRY TO CONVINCE THE PROSECTUTOR OF ANYTHING YOU WANT

google tells me Maryland still has a duty to retreat law. That would make me double down on “I invoke my right to counsel, and I reserve my right to make a statement at a future point.” Not lawyering up might be the right play in a stand your ground state.

Retreating only means that you have a duty to try to break contact BEFORE using lethal force and even that has limits of when you have to retreat. NOT explaining AFTER the incident has NOTHING to do with retreating or not

Personally, I would be able to testify that I have read Force Science News for a decade. Their evidence-based police shooting investigation guidelines recommend several days to an investigative (criminal) interview, involved officers review any recordings/scene summaries before interviewing and that noncoercive techniques be used... “You know, the Intl Assoc. of Police Chiefs have endorsed that process for interviewing similarly-situated cops, so shouldn’t I have a similar opportunity...”. I would demand that same reasonable investigatory standard for me as a disabled guy scared out of his wits and compelled to use deadly force. “I want make sure that I am healthy enough and have good legal advice before I make a statement, officer. I understand you need to write your report but my recollection will be clearer after reviewing the initial investigative report and having a few days to reconstruct in my mind.”

Go ahead and demand all you want. The Officers and Detectives will stop asking questions BUT they wont go for a hot stone massage while your waiting for your lawyer. What they WILL be doing is deciding if youre going to be arrested WITHOUT any input from you

i have been on the law dog side of this. It is all good to be a victim, but sometimes you will not be dealt that card to play. Police officers have been extended a series of favorable court cases that reduce their exposure to peril in most duty shootings. The average joe has only a lot of opportunities to be railroaded and a handful of chances to get it right. My job is not to make the officers’ report easy but to get home to my family.

And in your role as the attorney, I'm betting YOU went home that night whether your client spoke OR not.


Counselor, you are more than welcome to your opinions. You have law school behind you and know the law much better; I on the other hand only know that a suspect who "lawyers up" is just one more guy I don't have to get a statement from. Hes just a guy that I have to decide which block to fill with HIS name. The name in THAT BLOCK wont change. The SUSPECT will be arrested, he will be processed and he will get to sit in the Detention Center while his attorney formulates his defense.

I'm just the dumb cop but if you can give me a reasonable timeline of events that make sense AND if you do it without acting like an ass and leaving out a few FUs I aint talking to you till my lawyer says so, then you just might have me on your side. Hell in the process, you might even tell me to look for evidence that I might miss OR maybe get me to look for evidence that might get washed away or moved. So you go ahead and refuse to talk all you want....