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Gabriel Suarez
12-22-2017, 07:02 AM
MAKING THE 870 BETTER: SIDE SADDLES (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/12/making-the-remington-870-better.html) Friday, December 22, 2017 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/12/making-the-remington-870-better.html) One of the areas where we can make the, now popular again, Remington 870 better is by the addition of an on-board ammo carrier. I was initially unfavorable about these as the original versions of yesteryear were heavy and clumsy. But the newer versions seem to have overcome this. Lets discuss the things that make them good and the things that do not. But first let's establish some truths about how shotguns are really used in gunfights (which is what our focus is here).


Shotguns are not sustained firepower weapons. They are used in quick fast engagements, three or four rounds are fired, and that is usually that. If you hit, the devastation of the 12 ga round tends to conclude things even if the wound does not result in death. To be used well, a shotgun must be light, sleek, and fast into action. It is as much pointed as it is aimed with sighting systems. Anything that decreases the utility of the weapon in the realm it is intended for, without providing tangible value in return, is to be shunned as an undesirable addition.


On Weapon Mounted Ammo Carry Devices:


First, resist the temptation to add as much ammo as possible to the weapon. When I see a side saddle like this I know it was designed by someone that has no clue about how shotguns are used in fights and what the desirable attributes of one are. Yes, I know it is cool. Yes, I know they likely paid some high-speed-low-drag killer to endorse that, but it is still a poor accessory because it makes an otherwise light and fast handling weapon overweight and unbalanced.


http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c93dc2ad970b-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c93dc2ad970b-popup) http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c93dc326970b-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c93dc326970b-popup)
The best ammo carry units on the market today in my opinion, based on a lifelong study of fighting with firearms are the Mesa Tactical and the GG&G units. For best utility and without sacrificing the nature and deployment of the shotgun (specially the Non-Shotgun type weapons) I suggest getting one with the lowest capacity, such as 4 or 5 rounds. Both of these attach the same way, via the trigger guard retention pins. Tap the existing ones out, replace them with the provided pins and attach the unit.


The Mesa Tactical unit is very nice. It is light and holds four rounds which is plenty. Resist the temptation to get one that holds more. If you have to go through all the ammo in your shotgun and then all four rounds in your side saddle, you have chosen the wrong weapon for that fight. It is a good basic unit and my preference over the GG&G because it is lighter and does not get in the way. But I like the angle of the shells is better on the GG&G unit. What I don't like on the GG&G unit is that the front shell can get in the way of a rear hold on the pump. If GG&G made one that had one less round it would be better.

http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c93dc3a4970b-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c93dc3a4970b-popup)
MESA TACTICAL UNIT
http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d2c819a1970c-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d2c819a1970c-popup)
GG&G UNIT


As we move into the new year, Suarez International may design and produce its own version of this concept with a light and handy 4 or 5 round unit.

EDELWEISS
12-22-2017, 06:10 PM
What happened to the Ardis (sp?) side saddle that you were offering a while back?. I thought that looked interesting as other "saddles" could be carried pre loaded. Yet that might not be the best option for a Stakeout; but it seemed good for a patrol gun.

I totally agree that less is more with side saddles.

sloughfoot
12-22-2017, 06:19 PM
I totally agree with 4 round sidesaddles instead of the 5 round. However, long ago I purchased a speedfeed stock for my Police 870 that holds 4 rounds in the buttstock. Two on each side. I don't know if it is still available, but after I put it on, I discarded the sidesaddle altogether. The sidesaddle always was in the way and could complicate unassing from the squad car. And I was always the guy who showed up on a hot run with the shotgun out. I never thought 6 in the tube and 4 reloads was undergunned. I always detested the side saddle. At least the version available in the 90's.

PastorM
12-22-2017, 06:34 PM
What happened to the Ardis (sp?) side saddle that you were offering a while back?. I thought that looked interesting as other "saddles" could be carried pre loaded. Yet that might not be the best option for a Stakeout; but it seemed good for a patrol gun.

I totally agree that less is more with side saddles.

I put the Aridus system on my TAC-14 and removed it within about 15 minutes. It's way too bulky for a svelte weapon like that. It's a very well made system and would be a good product for games and perhaps to go into an extended battle with a full blown tactical shotgun ... but that's getting a bit far afield of the usual doctrine of use that Gabe's been developing/preaching here.

RPG
12-22-2017, 07:50 PM
I have the Aridus system on my Beretta 1301. I initially thought it would be too bulky but it worked fine in Jon Payneís class this spring. I had a couple of extra carriers loaded with buck, bird shot and slugs so switching was simple and fast. Itís probably overkill unless an antifa mob shows up. My Stakeout has the Mesa 4-hole version shown above. Anything bigger would be cumbersome.


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SheepDog68
12-23-2017, 05:50 AM
I totally agree with 4 round sidesaddles instead of the 5 round. However, long ago I purchased a speedfeed stock for my Police 870 that holds 4 rounds in the buttstock. Two on each side. I don't know if it is still available, but after I put it on, I discarded the sidesaddle altogether. The sidesaddle always was in the way and could complicate unassing from the squad car. And I was always the guy who showed up on a hot run with the shotgun out. I never thought 6 in the tube and 4 reloads was undergunned. I always detested the side saddle. At least the version available in the 90's.

SpeedFeed has been gone for while now! They are generally slower/harder to use (At least for me), but don’t get in the way which has its own advantages!

They of of course are available on the used/surplus market if you still want one!

SD

Gunfixr
12-23-2017, 06:26 AM
The pics don't clearly show it, but if the shell holding body of the ggg unit is made much the same as the Mesa tactical unit, then it would not be difficult to cut the one holder off the muzzle end.
This would reduce it to 4, and shorten it to not be in the way, and you'd have the better angle.
Best of both worlds.

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Gabriel Suarez
12-23-2017, 08:00 AM
What happened to the Ardis (sp?) side saddle that you were offering a while back?. I thought that looked interesting as other "saddles" could be carried pre loaded. Yet that might not be the best option for a Stakeout; but it seemed good for a patrol gun.

I totally agree that less is more with side saddles.
Had it for sale....I don't know who is buying these, but certainly nobody here was. Good idea? It is. Is it better than the others I mentioned? Not sure...apparently nobody that visits here thought they were. Did you buy one?

chad newton
12-23-2017, 08:10 AM
I look at the purpous of the stakeout style shotgun, it’s not for prolonged fighting. So it’s a go at a reactive situation. Having extra rounds on board is a great idea. 4 rounds On the side saddle is enough to get through something, be it multiple people or active shooter. Plus, you still always carry your pistol. Prolonged fighting is not what this system is meant for.

EDELWEISS
12-23-2017, 10:00 AM
Had it for sale....I don't know who is buying these, but certainly nobody here was. Good idea? It is. Is it better than the others I mentioned? Not sure...apparently nobody that visits here thought they were. Did you buy one?

Hard to argue with negative sales... I think one issue regarding side saddles, is differentiating between a full stocked Fighting Shotgun AND the Shockwave, which is a SBS in everything but a legal P.O.V. As a replaceable side saddle, for rapid restocking of onboard ammo the Aridus does make sense on a Full Stocked Fighting Shotgun, when the wearer would likely be carrying a heavy load of ammo, conversely with something like the Stakeout, I don't see a need for even a box (25) of rounds (a few extra rounds 5 maybe a max of 10); even in a bailout during a riot, evasion seems likely than jungle operations.


Perhaps we should begin considering discussing side saddles in terms of the two different weapons systems

cabinfever
12-23-2017, 06:17 PM
Question from someone who has never used a side saddle... do others integrate different types of shells on the saddle vs in the magazine? e.g. have some slugs in the saddle in case the need arises, as opposed to just extra buckshot?

sloughfoot
12-25-2017, 04:29 PM
I'm sure others have different experiences, but my need for extra ammo on the shotgun had nothing to do with a speed reload in combat. It had to do with topping off the shotgun after putting animals down while on duty before putting it back in the car rack. I firmly believe that if 4 or 6 rounds of 00 buck have not resolved a situation, you better be rethinking a lot of things and making some changes PDQ. A speed reload of the shotgun would not be my first choice. I have always believed that unless you are going to get hits, there is no point in discharging any firearm. Never been a spray and pray guy. Especially the 12 gauge.

I just think the speedfeed stock was an innovative way to carry extra ammo on the gun. I don't think the side saddle is very innovative. However a 4 round side saddle is good, but I think a two rounder would be even better. If the darn things didn't snag on everything and totally mess up a grip on the receiver.

A good friend showed up for his first shift with his FTO with a two 12 gauge shellholder on his duty belt for the 870 he checked out of the radio room. He was roundly ridiculed by all of us older guys. I am not so sure anymore that he was worthy of all the ridicule. If he had just carried those two rounds in a pocket nobody would ever have known....

Gunfixr
12-25-2017, 06:39 PM
I think also that some of us just want more ammo, even if only a little more, than whatever the gun holds.
Really, all it would take is a misfire, or perhaps a round that jams, or operator error that ends up with a round or two on the ground once the problem is cleared up, and 4rds just went to two. To be able to top back off would be nice.
Yeah, I know, training. But no one is perfect.

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Brent Yamamoto
12-25-2017, 09:10 PM
A good friend showed up for his first shift with his FTO with a two 12 gauge shellholder on his duty belt for the 870 he checked out of the radio room. He was roundly ridiculed by all of us older guys. I am not so sure anymore that he was worthy of all the ridicule. If he had just carried those two rounds in a pocket nobody would ever have known....

I think two rounds on the belt is excellent. I'd have quietly smiled back while taking that shit, confident that I knew better.

EDELWEISS
12-26-2017, 05:57 AM
A good friend showed up for his first shift with his FTO with a two 12 gauge shellholder on his duty belt for the 870 he checked out of the radio room. He was roundly ridiculed by all of us older guys. I am not so sure anymore that he was worthy of all the ridicule. If he had just carried those two rounds in a pocket nobody would ever have known....


I think two rounds on the belt is excellent. I'd have quietly smiled back while taking that shit, confident that I knew better.

I got the same treatment and did as Brent; fools often laugh at what they don't understand.

TRLudlow
12-26-2017, 08:02 AM
I got the same treatment and did as Brent; fools often laugh at what they don't understand.

You make a good point. One of the guys in my patrol division used an old, black, nylon Uncle Mikes shell holder with four rounds in it. It snapped around the rounds like an envelope. He had four rounds in addition to the load in his 870 and in his side saddle. He had no plans on not having the rounds to stay in the fight as long as he could. He was one of those guys who eschewed the AR in favor of the shotgun as his go-to long gun and he knew how to run it.

Greg Nichols
12-26-2017, 08:18 AM
I'm sure others have different experiences, but my need for extra ammo on the shotgun had nothing to do with a speed reload in combat. It had to do with topping off the shotgun after putting animals down while on duty before putting it back in the car rack. I firmly believe that if 4 or 6 rounds of 00 buck have not resolved a situation, you better be rethinking a lot of things and making some changes PDQ. A speed reload of the shotgun would not be my first choice. I have always believed that unless you are going to get hits, there is no point in discharging any firearm. Never been a spray and pray guy. Especially the 12 gauge.


This is what people fail to understand about the shotgun. The only reason I can think of to even start running low is if I'm pinning someone to their cover as I improve my position or flank, even then it wouldn't need to be a mag dump just a round every 2-3 seconds to keep them down while you maneuver

Greg Nichols
12-26-2017, 08:21 AM
Question from someone who has never used a side saddle... do others integrate different types of shells on the saddle vs in the magazine? e.g. have some slugs in the saddle in case the need arises, as opposed to just extra buckshot?

Yes and we teach the most efficient way to switch to slugs in our shotgun classes.

Gabriel Suarez
12-26-2017, 08:57 AM
The main advantage of the slide saddles...the modern ones "Like I Wrote About" is that it extends your ability to stay in the fight with a weapon that is designed to be continually loaded during the fight. Far different than the "shoot dry and speed load" mentality of the bullet-masturbators, it exemplifies the concept and intent of the proactive reload. If you have nothing with which to proactively load, you cannot do it. And while there is extreme value in "two shell" carriers on the belt, it is a preplanned event to add one to your daily carry. And that is not always possible. But the additional four on the weapon makes up for that.

Speed feed stocks? Tried them, and did not like them. Good theory...poor execution...plus then you are married to that stock and no other stocks. A Stakeout weapon can have an "Arm brace" added to it, making it an SBS at a $200 discount. But NOT with a speefeed stock. And even if we are not discussing Stakeouts...the best stock on the market hands down is the Magpul SGA that comes stock on our Raider Package weapons. Its not a speedfeed.

Ted Demosthenes
01-04-2018, 02:52 PM
From an anthropometric or body mechanics perspective:
- before doing SI design work, Iíd be interested in a Gabe/Greg/Jon (GG&J?) eval of the GG&G 5rd unit (with the fwd holder removed) to determine if thereís access advantage to the slant design.

My initial guess is that it likely favors a technique espoused by a principle at GG&G.

Iíll pay for the test article Capín Gabe. [emoji41]