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EDELWEISS
11-29-2017, 05:50 AM
With the recent discussion concerning 9mm sometimes beating 556 as a PDW cartridge, I'm thinking we might discuss other possible cartridges. I know some of you guys are "doing" 45acp and we've talked about 357SIG as well. Also in the past the 22TCM(?) was pondered as a Glock cartridge. Personally I have an urging for a 10mm PDW although 357SIG seems almost as good...

I know there are other purpose built PDWs for military sales (FN P90, HK MP7). The FN 5.7 is intriguing but its limited firearm options outside the PS90 and AR57 are troubling to me. Ive yet to see any civilian offering for the HK round, so Ive discounted it till something becomes available. Likewise the 30Carbine might be an option except for limited weapons and ammo. I had great interest in 762x25; but that dried up too and while the PPS43 is the Russian tank of SMGs, its also huge as a pistol and silly as a rifle unless SBRd, and even then still large by PDW standards. Still I do think a modernized 762x25 would make a great PDW round.

I also toy with 300Blk primarily in the subsonic/suppressed mode as a PDW weapon (with a mag or two of supersonics for use as required).

Discuss... What is your PDW cartridge? Why?

Dorkface
11-29-2017, 06:30 AM
The only real option is to develop the AR50 pistol in .50 bmg. Then you could handle everything from a meth'd out midget (and blow the little guy across the street), cars, elephants and Tyrannosaurus(drop them in their tracks).

Dorkface
11-29-2017, 06:37 AM
The only real question is would this work on Greg. While he is approximately the size of a midget he is definitely stronger than a tyrannosaurus... hmm...

Hasher
11-29-2017, 06:54 AM
Oh look!!!!

The favorite meal of
everyone on WT

deceased
and tenderized equine.
:drool::drool:

Greg Nichols
11-29-2017, 07:16 AM
The only real option is to develop the AR50 pistol in .50 bmg. Then you could handle everything from a meth'd out midget (and blow the little guy across the street), cars, elephants and Tyrannosaurus(drop them in their tracks).

This was an option if I recall, a while back there was an upper that fit a standard lower in .50 Beowulf that could be used to disable vehicles. Was used in a standard AR magazine as a single stack. When I saw it I thought it would be a great tool for a trunk monkey/rear seater to disable a chase vehicle in a PSD convoy situation.

Greg Nichols
11-29-2017, 07:27 AM
With the recent discussion concerning 9mm sometimes beating 556 as a PDW cartridge, I'm thinking we might discuss other possible cartridges. I know some of you guys are "doing" 45acp and we've talked about 357SIG as well. Also in the past the 22TCM(?) was pondered as a Glock cartridge. Personally I have an urging for a 10mm PDW although 357SIG seems almost as good...

I know there are other purpose built PDWs for military sales (FN P90, HK MP7). The FN 5.7 is intriguing but its limited firearm options outside the PS90 and AR57 are troubling to me. Ive yet to see any civilian offering for the HK round, so Ive discounted it till something becomes available. Likewise the 30Carbine might be an option except for limited weapons and ammo. I had great interest in 762x25; but that dried up too and while the PPS43 is the Russian tank of SMGs, its also huge as a pistol and silly as a rifle unless SBRd, and even then still large by PDW standards. Still I do think a modernized 762x25 would make a great PDW round.

I also toy with 300Blk primarily in the subsonic/suppressed mode as a PDW weapon (with a mag or two of supersonics for use as required).

Discuss... What is your PDW cartridge? Why?

Due to the intended purpose and envelope of the PDW 124gr +p 9mm is the is the gold standard for this application with my only caveat being that for commonality I would want the PDW's ammo to match my carry pistol, for example if I carried .45, .357 sig, or some other common cartridge I'd want my PDW and pistol to match.

In this day and age it borders on ridiculous to even consider obscure platforms and cartridges rather than modern arms and common calibers especially with how well new defensive ammunition performs.

In other words if I had a 5.7 P90, if I had a choice I'd be carrying a 5.7 pistol because the commonality of caliber is far more important to me than what cartridge I'm actually using. This is really a software problem rather than a hardware problem, as you have to make the decision on your platform and caliber and spend enough time training with it to know it's performance envelope and structure your tactics to optimize that envelope with your chosen platform.

Dorkface
11-29-2017, 07:34 AM
This was an option if I recall, a while back there was an upper that fit a standard lower in .50 Beowulf that could be used to disable vehicles. Was used in a standard AR magazine as a single stack. When I saw it I thought it would be a great tool for a trunk monkey/rear seater to disable a chase vehicle in a PSD convoy situation.

That could be an option... .50 GI also since in theory you just need to rebarrel a .45acp gun. But I think it gives up too much power to the bmg... you are more durable then that.

DogDoc
11-29-2017, 07:45 AM
My advice to folks thinking about this question is to choose a caliber that's easy to find and inexpensive and then shoot it a lot...Really a lot.

Regular practice will add much more to my edge than a half millimeter difference in bullet diameter or another 100fps of velocity will do.

Also, ballistically subsonic 300BLK = .45 acp. I really don't see the point for an indoor PDW. I can see having a mag of subsonics if you're usually running supers but I see no reason to get a 300BK specifically for the slow stuff. Get a Glock PDW instead.

DavySprocket
11-29-2017, 07:45 AM
I'm sure we can all agree that 9mm is pretty much perfect/ideal for this application. Personally I have stuff at SI getting prepped for a 357 Sig pdw. I'd like to try out the Lehigh 65 and 90 gr ammo. The only problem with those is the noise level.
I'm wondering if a 45 auto or a 50 GI would be the next step though. They remain subsonic, but carry a lot more punch. They also start flirting better with Cooper's "Thumper" concept. The obvious downside there is bulky ammo and lower magazine capacity.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Brent Yamamoto
11-29-2017, 09:15 AM
I think this is a "get whatever the hell you want" thing.

Commonality with your EDC makes a lot of sense.

At the same time, I don't think it's a big issue. In any situation where we aren't immediately drawing a pistol, we'd reach for something better if we have time...whether that's a shotgun, rifle or PDW. I don't see that the PDW must necessarily be the same caliber.

Do what you want. I'd recommend matching your EDC first, but adding something more to your stable doesn't hurt.

Sam Spade
11-29-2017, 11:14 AM
Does commonality of caliber really matter unless there's also commonality of magazines?

WOLF220
11-29-2017, 11:17 AM
I’m with Greg on this one. Having the same caliber between PDW and pistol makes life much easier. Being able to use the same mags is also a bonus. And within the ranges that these weapons are most likely to be used, I can’t see the 9mm not being up to snuff.

Brent Yamamoto
11-29-2017, 11:27 AM
Does commonality of caliber really matter unless there's also commonality of magazines?

Agree. Common ammo/mags is best but I don't think it's that big a deal.

I think a bigger issue is mag commonality, but different caliber (i.e. Glock 9mm EDC, Glock 357 PDW). But even then...keep your head on straight and it shouldn't be an issue.

I never reached for a pistol mag when I was reloading my rifle.

Brent Yamamoto
11-29-2017, 11:51 AM
I think PDWs with hotter calibers are specialty items.

357 is very flat shooting and hits with more authority at longer range than 9mm. Maybe that's effectively academic but fuck it. I wanted one and I built it. I think it's also a little better on 4 legged creatures.

I think a 10mm or even a 45 PDW makes some sense on trails as well, if one is motivated enough to carry more than a pistol.

And again, I agree it's best to carry pistols/PDWs that match.

Greg Nichols
11-29-2017, 12:26 PM
Does commonality of caliber really matter unless there's also commonality of magazines?

To me it does. If I'm running a PDW and Pistol at the same time it's obvious that it's an ongoing event that I've had time to prepare for. As my PDW is in the primary role and as discussed superior to the pistol alone if I have the opportunity to top off a PDW mag from a pistol mag so that I'm keeping the PDW fed I will.

Dorkface
11-29-2017, 12:31 PM
So what kinda fight would some get into that they had a chance to grab something besides their handgun and prepare for it but so little ammo for it that they need to consider using their handgun ammo to reload it?

Yondering
11-29-2017, 12:33 PM
Still I do think a modernized 762x25 would make a great PDW round.


I have that exact concept on the back burner right now, and should have results next year. The goal is to duplicate the 7.62x25 but in a 9mm/40 Glock platform, and with modern bullets. Not because I see any glaring need, but just because it's interesting.

Greg Nichols
11-29-2017, 12:38 PM
So what kinda fight would some get into that they had a chance to grab something besides their handgun and prepare for it but so little ammo for it that they need to consider using their handgun ammo to reload it?

Murphy happens. Didn't have time to grab support equipment, somehow damaged or lost mags off your person, whatever.

Brent Yamamoto
11-29-2017, 12:47 PM
So what kinda fight would some get into that they had a chance to grab something besides their handgun and prepare for it but so little ammo for it that they need to consider using their handgun ammo to reload it?

My PDW is in a bag and goes with me when it's reasonable to carry it. As such I have a couple reloads so commonality of caliber/mags isn't so important to me. (Ideal but not necessary)

If it was a grab and go situation where more mags weren't on tap, which I suspect it would be for many, commonality is more important.

Honestly the very reason we'd carry a PDW is for those things we CAN'T imagine so having more rounds (within reason) is a good thing.

Pict
11-29-2017, 12:54 PM
So what kinda fight would some get into that they had a chance to grab something besides their handgun and prepare for it but so little ammo for it that they need to consider using their handgun ammo to reload it?

Traveling and I brought the PDW along. Granted, if I have the PDW I'll have seven 32 round mags and another two boxes of spare ammo in the backpack.

Dorkface
11-29-2017, 01:02 PM
Had a feeling that was going to the the reason. I understand the sentiment but I dont really buy it. Using that as a base we either need 12ga glocks or 9mm stakeouts.

Greg Nichols
11-29-2017, 01:13 PM
Don't be retarded. It's a preference in a perfect world, just like having both platforms use the same mags or using the same color RDS. There is never a down side to commonality.

Brent Yamamoto
11-29-2017, 01:15 PM
Don't be retarded.

Too late. This is another PDW thread after all.

Greg Nichols
11-29-2017, 01:19 PM
Too late. This is another PDW thread after all.

True story.

Dorkface
11-29-2017, 01:58 PM
Don't be retarded. It's a preference in a perfect world, just like having both platforms use the same mags or using the same color RDS. There is never a down side to commonality.

HAHAHA Indeed. I just rate the commonality part as nice but not necessary. Thanks dude.

Brent Yamamoto
11-29-2017, 02:19 PM
And on that note of agreement...puppies:

54130

54131

54132

54133

Hasher
11-29-2017, 04:02 PM
Too late. This is another PDW thread after all.

not to worry. It will start another one before the week is out.

hellehack
11-29-2017, 04:09 PM
I do NOT think there is any thing wrong with a PDW being a different caliber then your handgun. Perhaps someone can only get away with a smaller handgun while wearing swim trunks and want added range power penetration etc of 357 sig , 10mm , 9x25 dillon, 50, etc PDW. It all depends on what your threats are . If they are just two legged does 22 tcm do what you want?

Gabriel Suarez
11-29-2017, 05:19 PM
In our context...elaborated several times...the advantage of a PEW is commonality of magazines and ammo with the every day carried pistol.

Those that carry Clock 26, 19, 17 and 34s...which I expect are 90% of everyone here, can benefit from that. The advantages should be obvious I think. Those that have to carry something smaller or different can't take advantage of that and the discussion is a moot issue.

I see no advantage in carrying a Clock 17nand then having a PEW that uses Uzi magazines for example. If you are going to use a pistol caliber try to use a PEW that shares magazines and ammo with your primary.

There arevadvantages to the 9mm over the 223, 300, etc. I hope you guys read what I wrote in that discussion. The farther you get from pistol caliber (50 beowulf...45 magnums, 10mm and stuff like that,), you are missing the point of the weapon.

The PDW is a super sharp little stiletto that is slipped in an eye socket or ear canal. It is not a primary combat weapon or a batttle axe. If you want something to kill bears or stop trucks...the PDW is not your best choice.

If you are tramping around in the weeds, you should not select a PEW. A small AR in 458 SOCOM is not a PDW in the context we are looking at. It is a rifle...regardless of length...in an outdoors caliber.

The PDW is not for riots or for fighting your way out of a roadside ANTIFA party. That is what a stake out in 12 gauge is for.

There is no single caliber or single weapon that will do everything. Study your expected conflicts without dumbing everything down (or saying that stupid phrase "I'm just a civilian"). Then select a weapon or weapons that will address those problems.

Mike Heckathorn
11-29-2017, 05:40 PM
The only calibers I would even consider for a PDW are 9mm, .40, and .45. All are widely available with inexpensive ammunition and can be found anywhere. When we start getting into the semi boutique calibers (.357 Sig and 10mm) ammo is available, but not prevalent. It is also not CHEAP (read $0.20 to $0.25 for practice ammo). Defensive ammo is varied and seasonal. Then you have the true Boutique ammo (9x25, 50 GI, 400 CorBon, etc). These are good ideas for niche use (as in a back woods gun, a competition gun, a fun gun), but not for serious use. Manufacturers of the ammunition are able to be counted on one hand. Also, they are vastly exceeding the performance envelopes of the bullets they use. Anyone remember when people pushed .38super fast enough for core jacket separation in mid air?) The companies that produce the ammunition are also not able to QC the ammunition to the extent of companies (technically the same company) Speer and Federal or Hornady. When it comes down to the standard calibers, why would someone want a .40 or .45? .45 doesn’t really benefit as much from a longer barrel. .40 isn’t a bad round, but the increase in ammo cost and recoil is (debatably) not really worth it.


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hellehack
11-29-2017, 05:57 PM
What is your opinion on Underwoods Lehighs in say 357 sig or 10mm?

What I like about your guys PDW' s is even getting the manual of arms down is simple and cheap with 9mm , but one could still own a backwoods 357 sig set up.

Mike Heckathorn
11-29-2017, 06:27 PM
What is your opinion on Underwoods Lehighs in say 357 sig or 10mm?

What I like about your guys PDW' s is even getting the manual of arms down is simple and cheap with 9mm , but one could still own a backwoods 357 sig set up.

They make excellent ammo. But, they do not have the QC capabilities of the major manufacturers. Underwood is what I use in my .44 caliber revolvers. For back woods carry, I’d pick Underwood. For social carry, I’d stick with Federal or Speer


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

EDELWEISS
11-30-2017, 06:10 AM
OK lets try a reset here--I asked about other cartridges because the ARE guys here carrying other cartridges. We KNOW some guys have Glock PDWs in 45acp and at least one guy with a Glock PDW in 357SIG. So there are other possibilities.

Yep in my case the 357SIG is specialized (even more so than a "regular" PDW). I use it when I'm in more rural areas. As a guy who grew up in the Baltimore AO, living temporarily with relatives in farming country, then travelling to Cody Wy on vacation was a wake up to real rural--suddenly my 9mm SMGs seemed useless. My thought in those areas was 357SIG (and maybe others) needed serious consideration. Can a 9mm handle most PDW needs, sure BUT do other cartridges have merit; yeah I think so...

Mag commonality...yes a great advantage, likewise similar platforms...yeah a nice to have; but Id be open to options that didn't share mags and of different platforms. The Glock is a great Handgun, its even good as a Stocked Handgun. Does it "work" as a PDW that's carried a lot and used in emergencies--yep BUT its not a SMG, and if I expected I might have to fight with more than a handgun, I think I might opt for something more. Now that being said, Glocks are available in 9mm, 40SW, 45acp, and 10mm, so even if another platform is chosen for a PDW the Glock serves well as the primary handgun (and maybe with mags in common).

As too common cartridges between handgun and PDW, well that's nice, maybe even really nice; but by definition that limits the PDW to a SMG. So are PDW specialty rounds different from the handgun worth consideration? IDK, I think for most of us in most situations, the answer is NO; but I do think it opens the options to cartridges outside 9mm.

Regarding commonly available (and cheaper) cartridges, Hmmmm, typically Id agree; but on something as special as a PDW I'm not so sure. I'm not opposed to "Walmart" rounds (I use Walmart as a baseline for "availability"); I'm just not sure we have to fall into that trap for PDWs. Stocking a case (or less) of special rounds for a PDW doesn't seem too far out of line--especially if the round/weapon offers a useable advantage in a particular situation.

So if 9mm is sometimes better than 556 > then is something else better than 9mm sometimes....

Gabriel Suarez
11-30-2017, 06:55 AM
Outdoors Rural when predatory animals may be out there - 12 ga with slugs, or a 300 blackout "Pistol" with supersonics, or something like that.

Outdoors Rural where no concern over being eaten - 5.56 or 300 BO Pistol

Outdoors Urban - Depending on expected mission - Stakeout 12 ga, or 9mm PDW. If you carry a 40 or a 357 or a 45 Glock...then a PDW in those calbers. If you carry a CZ75, wake up and realize its 2017 and get a glock.

Indoors Urban - Home or Office or other similar type event - Pistol is king as you will always have one. I just got up and have a pistol carried left appendix. To augment the pistol, or if you have time to go Offensive Preemptive - again depending on predicted nature of conflict - A stakeout 12 or a 9mm PDW either Glock or an AR-9.

Gabriel Suarez
11-30-2017, 06:56 AM
Furtehr more...carrying a CZ-10 in 9mm and an AR-9 in 9mm that runs on Colt magazines is substandard to where the bar has been set.

DogDoc
11-30-2017, 07:01 AM
I have two dedicated PDWs (dedicated meaning they have an SI mag release and live on an Endo/KAK brace full time). One is a 45acp G21 which is the house gun. I like the idea of large, slow bullets indoors and since the Kriss mag eliminates the capacity issue, why not? When I get up in my jammies to kill a home intruder I'm not going to have a handgun on my belt so mag commonality is irrelevant. I also use this PDW when tromping around the woods. In those cases, I have a G21 on my hip so mag commonality is preserved. I should probably carry a 300 BLK pistol or a shotgun but I'm lazy...maybe a Stakeout someday.

The other is a G17 which is my traveling PDW. It has a pair of happy sticks linked together with one of Gabe's mag-linking thingies (https://suarezinternational.com/pdw-dual-magazine-clamp/). My EDC is either a G19 or G17 so mag commonality is there as well.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where one of those two calibers wouldn't be ideal and where a rifle caliber wouldn't make more sense....Hmmm......maybe if one was going to be outdoors in a non-wilderness setting, like maybe an event at a park, or a sport event or a fair or carnival where you might see something going down that was more than 25 yards away? Maybe in that scenario you could argue that a flatter-shooting .357 Sig (or 9x25 Dillon?) pairing of EDC/PDW would make more sense but a .40 or hot 9mm would likely do the job too. Then again, the odds of being able to make such a long shot at a crowded venue without making holes in people besides the bad guy are pretty slim.

For me, it gets to be too much hair splitting with all the possible "what-if" scenarios. I'd probably be better served by practicing more with what I'm likely to have with me than to get yet another caliber and try and guess when I might wish I had something else. That said, I do have a .357 barrel for my RMR'd G35. But I consider it a toy and have yet to have thought I should strap it on preferentially to my G19.

Edited to note that I was apparently simul-posting with Gabe when he wrote post #34. As usual, he nailed it and took fewer words to do so...and did it one-handed with his non-dominant hand no less! :0)

Gabriel Suarez
11-30-2017, 07:28 AM
...and did it one-handed with his non-dominant hand no less! :0)

Thank God for spell-check

EDELWEISS
11-30-2017, 08:12 AM
Interesting thoughts.... so if I'm reading correctly 40sw, 357SIG, or 45acp is acceptable, if you carry a matching Handgun/PDW in those cartridges. Would that also include 10mm under the same circumstances?

Where do the 9mm ARs come into play? I ask because you referenced the Angstadt as one of the best 9mm ARs and I see youre also listing the CMMG 9mm AR.

Brent Yamamoto
11-30-2017, 08:19 AM
I have 3 PDWs: 9, 357, and 45. I can justify reasons for each but honestly I just did it because I could. I enjoy building things that are a little unique.

I don't recommend that path. I suggest carrying a 19/17/34 and a 17/34 PDW. Spend your money optimizing those and don't look back.

I got into 357 because I decided 40 did not offer a lot of benefit, and it's easy to convert to 357. I bought a long barrel to maximize the velocity… It is as close to a 357 Magnum Glock as you can get. So far as I know, I was the first person to build one. My reasons? Because it's fucking cool, that's why. I have a matching carry pistol.

I got into 45 because I found that I really enjoyed shooting the G41. I set up a PDW stock only because a friend had a modified Endo unit he wasn't using. It was 95% there already and was easy to fit. So far as I know I have the only G41 PDW in existence. Is there any reason for you to build one? No, unless you like carrying heavy ammo. I have a matching carry pistol.

I finally built a 9 because it's stupid not to have one. Of course I had to be different so I built it on a 17L. So far as I know, it's the only one in existence. (See a pattern?) Of course, I have a matching pistol.

9mm makes the most sense for this application, period. If you want something different, just build it because you want it.

The most important thing is that you're able to hit whatever the hell you want, with any of your weapons, at reasonable distances.

DogDoc
11-30-2017, 08:32 AM
The significant disadvantage to doing one in 40 or 357 Sig is the lower capacity of their "high-capacity" magazine (22 rounds vs 27 for Kriss 45acp and 33 for 9mm).

Gabriel Suarez
11-30-2017, 08:34 AM
There is no point in carrying TWO pistol caliber weapons with DIFFERENT MAGAZINES...DIFFERENT AMMO. If you are going to keep a PISTOL CALIBERED WEAPON to augment your pistol, it SHOULD use same magazine and same ammo.

99% of America carries a Glock 9mm. You can argue, complain or disagree but its true. Thus you can either keep a 9mm Glock PDW, or an Angstadt UDP-9. The CMMG is there because I guarantee if I hadn't put that one up as well...somebody would have asked about it. Just about ALL OTHER AR-9s are pieces of crap.

Differences between them? Quality = Price. If you can find them for sale at the discount gun stores they are probably sh*t guns.

Why an AR-9 over a Glock PDW, or vise versa?

It depends on mission and application. If you need maximum concealability and keeping the weapon in as small a container as possible - the Glock PDW wins. If that is not a concern, the AR-9 can be used with a little greater speed and accuracy than the Glock PDW. Very few guys that bought the PDW kits have dedicated a Glock to its use. I base that on the sales of the Cominolli safeties. A Glock without one IS NOT REALLY a dedicated PDW...its just a holster weapon with an attachment. SO....there is still a place for the AR-9 type weapon as it is a dedicated weapon.

And no...a small 300 or 556 IS NOT THE SAME THING for the various reasons I already discussed in the article. There is also the weight factor which cannot be ignored.

An AR-9 that does not take Glock magazines in the world of Glocks is like a great flip phone in the era of IPhones and Droids.

Dorkface
11-30-2017, 08:42 AM
I have 3 PDWs: 9, 357, and 45. I can justify reasons for each but honestly I just did it because I could. I enjoy building things that are a little unique.

I don't recommend that path. I suggest carrying a 19/17/34 and a 17/34 PDW. Spend your money optimizing those and don't look back.

I got into 357 because I decided 40 did not offer a lot of benefit, and it's easy to convert to 357. I bought a long barrel to maximize the velocity… It is as close to a 357 Magnum Glock as you can get. So far as I know, I was the first person to build one. My reasons? Because it's fucking cool, that's why. I have a matching carry pistol.

I got into 45 because I found that I really enjoyed shooting the G41. I set up a PDW stock only because a friend had a modified Endo unit he wasn't using. It was 95% there already and was easy to fit. So far as I know I have the only G41 PDW in existence. Is there any reason for you to build one? No, unless you like carrying heavy ammo. I have a matching carry pistol.

I finally built a 9 because it's stupid not to have one. Of course I had to be different so I built it on a 17L. So far as I know, it's the only one in existence. (See a pattern?) Of course, I have a matching pistol.

9mm makes the most sense for this application, period. If you want something different, just build it because you want it.

The most important thing is that you're able to hit whatever the hell you want, with any of your weapons, at reasonable distances.

I think Brent is now the designated WT Hipster.

DogDoc
11-30-2017, 08:51 AM
Very few guys that bought the PDW kits have dedicated a Glock to its use. I base that on the sales of the Cominolli safeties. A Glock without one IS NOT REALLY a dedicated PDW...its just a holster weapon with an attachment. SO....there is still a place for the AR-9 type weapon as it is a dedicated weapon.



Quick question Gabe. If we send our Glock in for the Cominolli safety (https://suarezinternational.com/install-cominolli-safety-on-your-glock-frame/) install do we have to hassle with FFLs on the way back or can you just ship it to us directly because it isn't transferring ownership?

Doc

Gabriel Suarez
11-30-2017, 08:57 AM
Quick question Gabe. If we send our Glock in for the Cominolli safety (https://suarezinternational.com/install-cominolli-safety-on-your-glock-frame/) install do we have to hassle with FFLs on the way back or can you just ship it to us directly because it isn't transferring ownership?

Doc


YOUR frame returns to YOUR address

Brent Yamamoto
11-30-2017, 08:57 AM
I think Brent is now the designated WT Hipster.

You are sooo getting choked out at the PGF class in February!

EDELWEISS
11-30-2017, 09:45 AM
The significant disadvantage to doing one in 40 or 357 Sig is the lack of a high-capacity magazine. 9mm and 45 both have good options for that.

Ive been "making do" with the +5 base plates Gabe offered a while back (sure wish he'd do another run...) and the 22rnd mags from Glock for my 357SIG projects.

I keep toying with thoughts of a 45acp SMG, even bought a Kriss extension as a reminder to keep thinking about it--but what I really want is a 10mm (at least that's what I think I want). Ive just about given up on any other Intermediate/Magnum SMG or pistol size PDW cartridge. I had some high hopes but nothing realized, so I think it either has to be 357SIG to use along with my G22s or 10mm in an as yet purchased G20 (assuming Kriss mags will work with 10mm)

Dorkface
11-30-2017, 10:35 AM
You are sooo getting choked out at the PGF class in February!

:firedevil: I'll bring you a beenie.

Brent Yamamoto
11-30-2017, 11:42 AM
:firedevil: I'll bring you a beenie.

Dear Lord.

Well I guess that's better than pajamas and hot cocoa.
54139

Gunfixr
11-30-2017, 06:34 PM
Back when 7.62x25 was still cheaply available, I built two cobray m11/9mm guns in that caliber. I used ppsh41 barrels, and left them 10" for full velocity, but they could've been cut to the standard 6". What a pita, because of the extra "oomph".
But they were neat, and compact. They are long gone.

My b&t tp9 sbr fits in my laptop bag, with 4 or so mags, and the suppressor. And the laptop. No, it doesn't share mags with my g19. But, I already have it.

Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk

hellehack
12-01-2017, 03:24 PM
Are 22 round mags really that bad with the PDW kit holding spares that close? 357 sig having some good skull penetration qualities for backwoods stuff where one still possibly wants concealment and doesn't want an open carried long gun.

I believe someone offers modded kriss mags to run 10mm or 9x25. PRICE? I have no idea.

Brent Yamamoto
12-01-2017, 04:16 PM
I think the 22 rounders are a little big for carry on the body but they are doable.

I think carrying a couple spare mags in a small sneaky bag are perfect though.

hellehack
12-01-2017, 04:34 PM
Anyone have a size and weight comparison pic of kriss magazines, glock 18 magazines, and glock 40 22 rounders?

Great insights !

Brent Yamamoto
12-01-2017, 06:55 PM
Left to right: Glock 31rd, ETS 31rd, G17, Glock 22rd, G21, Kriss. The standard mags are there for comparison.
54150

ETS makes 40/357 mags in 30, 24 and 19 rd mags by the way,

Brent Yamamoto
12-01-2017, 07:00 PM
30 rounds of 124gr
54151

30 rounds of 124gr
54152

20 rounds of 357Sig 115gr
54153

28 rounds of 45 200gr
54154

Pict
12-02-2017, 04:45 AM
If the purpose of the PDW is to carry high firepower in a light and compact package the weight of the ammo can become a factor.

9mm/100 rounds ~ 2.63lbs
5.56/100 rounds ~ 2.69lbs

.45ACP/100 rounds ~ 5.07lbs
7.62x51/100 rounds ~ 5.25lbs

In small pack, 100 rounds of .45 weighs more than a 2 liter water bottle whereas 100 rounds of 9mm weighs a little more than a full canteen.

45Smashemflat
12-02-2017, 07:06 AM
Good dialog. I'm sticking with if I'm carrying a PDW it may as well match ammo and mags as my carry pistol. If not, may as well carry a battle rifle.

Gabriel Suarez
12-02-2017, 07:10 AM
Good dialog. I'm sticking with if I'm carrying a PDW it may as well match ammo and mags as my carry pistol. If not, may as well carry a battle rifle.


Yep...that is kinda the point.

BTW, I have been carrying Magpul 21 rounders for a while and they are great mags.

We MAY be doing mag extensions for both the Magpul and OEM Glock which would bring the 17 to 21 or 22, the magpul 21 to 25 or 26.

hellehack
12-02-2017, 11:10 AM
Sometimes I carry the 357 sig on trails concealed haven’t open carried a rifle there in a while . Awesome comparison pictures do you have any of emoty mag weights? Like username pic pointed out ammo weight ... and it can vary by what loads are in the magazine.... underwood 65 grain defender for 357 sig for example. Or that 22 tcm cartridge as another example

Pict
12-02-2017, 11:31 AM
Velocity doesn't weigh anything.

hellehack
12-02-2017, 04:05 PM
I don't own any kriss mags I do own some of the more common glock mags

jlwilliams
12-02-2017, 05:19 PM
A few years ago I was all excited about the PDW rounds. In particular the 6.5cbj really excited me. I was also a fan of 7.62x25 when it was around. My enthusiasm has waned as the reality set in that 9mm is everywhere and the boutique PDW rounds aren't ever going to take hold, especially in the USA. As cool as a 6.5 cbj Glock would be, a 9mm is way more practical. Maybe down the road I may get into 357 sig or 10mm, but not because I "need" it. Another round would be because I can.

If I need more than a 9mm but less than a 5.56, it's because I'm in the woods and that's why I have a magnum hand cannon. As pumped up as I once was about PDWs and their exotic rounds, I'm kind of past that.

Of course if they released a US legal version of the 6.5cbj, there is no guarantee I wouldn't buy it. Because I can.

Pict
12-03-2017, 05:58 AM
A few years ago I was all excited about the PDW rounds. In particular the 6.5cbj really excited me.... Of course if they released a US legal version of the 6.5cbj, there is no guarantee I wouldn't buy it. Because I can.

I think they are onto something with the 6.5 CBJ as a PDW round. A US legal version of it would proably sell well as it only requires a barrel and spring swap to convert. A Glock PDW in this caliber would be an interesting option as the 6.5 CBJ trims a pound of weight per 100 rounds over the 9mm.

9mm/100 rounds = 2.63lbs

6.5x25 CBJ/100 rounds = 1.53 lbs (current unobtanium sabot load)

jlwilliams
12-03-2017, 02:26 PM
There is the catch. The sabot round is really cool but not legal under current US law. Without that bullet it's pretty much a 30 Luger necked down to 25. Fast and flat, but not more effective than a 9mm. With that bullet it has rifle like penetration at rifle ish distance in a holsterable side arm.

It's cool. It had me really excited for a while. It's never going to be available to me.

hellehack
12-16-2017, 11:16 AM
It helps to list what loads once is talking about when listing ammo weight. Stuff from underwood with 65 grain bullets for example cuts weight down quite a bit, and if the barrel likes it one still has the universal support of normal heavier cartridges. I know that 357 sig PDW is like that on the Trail I can load out with what I want even if that's not what is available locally at cabelas or other gun stores.

endsoftheearth
05-15-2018, 03:52 AM
If the pdw were fully automatic, and had a longer barrel than a pistol, then 9mm would be the perfect caliber, IMO. Since we can't have full auto we may as well have more power, as controllability ceases to be an issue.

If you want more power and Mag capacity go 10mm, as it is easy to reload straight walled cartridge.
Also, in the Glock platform you can use 40S&W cartridges in a 10mm with no modification, so you have recourse to commonly available ammo.

I run a 40 Sub 2000 with a Glock 20 because I figure the pistol will run low in its 10mm first. Then I can switch to the Sub 2000, if needed, and later replenish the pistol mags from it's ammo supply.

The Sub 2000 is a compact way to make 41 Magnum energy and the G20 is a 41 Magnum. And since I can't have full auto I can compensate with a 41 Magnum versus a 9mm.

However, in defense of the SI pdw in 10mm, over the Sub 2000: it's much lighter and it morphs from pistol to pdw as needed. It's just badass!

One might ask why not a 40 SI pdw, as it has higher capacity mags than 10mm? Well, because you may as well run the 9mm then. 45, 40 and 9 all have the same energy but 9 has more capacity.

10mm in a pistol and 40 in a 16 inch barrel have something different enough from 9mm to go to the trouble, IMO.

Coolhand77
06-23-2018, 12:44 PM
Given its resurgence, I would opt for 10mm for an "American" PDW. The ammo isn't cheap, but its certainly become more available in recent years. And I mean this in the classic military term, something good in a short range envelope, doesn't take up as much space as a full rifle on the individual, but also has enough oomph to possibly do soft armor [see reviews of underwood's solid copper non deforming rounds against soft armor].

sort of makes me wish someone had taken the 9x25 Dillon and tried to PDW it. ALMOST in the same league with that 7.5 BRNO cartrdige...almost...

Just my thoughts. Me, I'm going with a 10mm pistol and a 10mm PDW [right now a Kriss with an Arm Brace, but might be going to a G20/40 package as funds allow].