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Blade Doc
05-23-2017, 08:10 PM
Article from Soldier of Fortune written by a Vietnam era fighter pilot. Belgian fighter pilots flying against ISIS will be equipped with submachine guns. Interesting concept. Would the Glock PDW with big stick mags be a solution for this concept?

https://www.sofmag.com/should-u-s-fighter-pilots-carry-sub-machine-guns-for-more-firepower/

jlwilliams
05-24-2017, 04:23 AM
Tp9 in 6.5x25 sounds really, really cool.

I don't think the Glock pdw as we know it is a contender for this sort of a role because it is designed around legal issues that don't factor into that picture. The Glock pdw is a non NFA solution that works but if we didn't have the NFA to deal with we would probably have something that folds small enough to fit in a holster. I think B&T has a winner with their new folding stock, RDS equipped pistol (USW, I think it's called) but I won't be replacing my shockwave braced Glock with one because the Glock fits the laws here in America and the USW doesn't. That and the 3x price tag, and the mags and so on and so on. Anyway, a military pilots bailout kit isn't the same equation as a business man in the CONUS bedside or car kit.

I wonder if the Army's new "modular" pistol will be able to accept a dot sight and a stock. Probably not, but that would have been a step in the right direction.

PastorM
05-24-2017, 06:46 AM
...

I wonder if the Army's new "modular" pistol will be able to accept a dot sight and a stock. Probably not, but that would have been a step in the right direction.

Yes on the dot from what I have seen. There is a smaller opening than the Glock on the grip module ... though the design allowing for different diameter grips probably messes with the consistency that would be needed to make a Endo-like unit to fit it.

SUA SPONTE
05-24-2017, 07:52 AM
The M17 M18 modular pistol systems slides are cut for the Delta point Pro (not sure why since RMRs and the shitty Insight units are already in the supply system)

EDELWEISS
05-24-2017, 08:12 AM
Given the space considerations of a fighter cockpit, the B&T SMG is a good idea. A Beretta 93R or perhaps even just a similarly stocked M9, would be a good option for pilots already trained on that weapon. During Gulf War One I did was a Personal Security Agent for the General that took over for "Stormin' Norman" when he went home after the festivities. We typically carried MP5s openly. When we were tasked with being more discreet, I carried my issued M9 in a Miami Classic shoulder holster with Beretta 93R 20 round mags.

I think the real question is how much training is given on the weapon (and how seriously its taken by the student). The B&T MP9 is more of a hybrid between a SMG and a PDW, than a pure SMG. I certainly wouldn't feel unarmed if issued one, although if flying against isis Id be less concerned about body armor and more about hard hits. Given a choice in that size range I might opt for the Vector KRISS in 10mm assuming I could get working mag extensions--but that's just me

jlwilliams
05-24-2017, 08:30 AM
Given the fate that awaits those who fall into ISIS captivity, a cyanide capsule might be worth bringing along for when the ammo runs out.

barnetmill
05-28-2017, 08:06 PM
Given the fate that awaits those who fall into ISIS captivity, a cyanide capsule might be worth bringing along for when the ammo runs out.
Cyanide Exactly. There was difference between viet communist troops and the current ISIS. If the Viets got you and the initial capture did not result in your death you were likely going to survive. The Hanoi Hilton was not a fun resort and one former resident complained to me that since his shoulders pulled out their sockets he had recurring pains. But, what ISIS personnel have done is way beyond the pale.

ISIS burns Jordanian Pilot. Everyone of those SOBs, especially the leaders should be made to exit life on this earth.

http://s3.india.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/isis-burn-jordanian-pilot.jpg

EDELWEISS
05-29-2017, 05:49 AM
a cyanide capsule.

F that

jlwilliams
05-29-2017, 08:23 AM
F that

I hear you, but it was common enough for pilots to "save the last round for yourself" to avoid capture by the VC or the Japs before them. I've never had to put serious consideration into it but I don't judge those who choose that path under those circumstances. It's not a stretch to say that ISIS are as bad as the Japanese were to prisoners and to civilians under their control. A good submachine gun is swell, but when that mag runs dry...... don't count on Geneva Convention POW treatment.

Francisp
05-29-2017, 02:10 PM
F that

Why "f that?" Beats beung butned alive

Sasquatch
05-29-2017, 03:33 PM
Why "f that?" Beats beung butned alive
Plus that would rob those savages of the enjoyment and entertainment of tormenting you and making propaganda videos with your death! Screw those guys!

EDELWEISS
05-29-2017, 04:39 PM
I hear you, but it was common enough for pilots to "save the last round for yourself" to avoid capture by the VC or the Japs before them. I've never had to put serious consideration into it but I don't judge those who choose that path under those circumstances. It's not a stretch to say that ISIS are as bad as the Japanese were to prisoners and to civilians under their control. A good submachine gun is swell, but when that mag runs dry...... don't count on Geneva Convention POW treatment.


Why "f that?" Beats beung butned alive


Plus that would rob those savages of the enjoyment and entertainment of tormenting you and making propaganda videos with your death! Screw those guys!

Sorry guys that seems defeatist to me. I understand in cases like Gary Powers with the U2; but a Fighter Pilot, is supposed to be ummmm, a FIGHTER. Saying cyanide is an option is a mistake. Of course you don't want to get caught, of course you don't want to be tortured; but every torture video the animals do is a recruitment for our guys. I just binged watched 24 and kept thinking "let them do it" and we will have 1000s taking up arms against them and any that support them.... Remember back to the first beheading video that was posted and the anger you felt toward them. This is no different.

Pilots carrying cyanide is a TOTALLY wrong mindset. If its OK for pilots, then why not infantry OR cooks and clerks, in case they get over run?

Sasquatch
05-29-2017, 04:59 PM
Sorry guys that seems defeatist to me. I understand in cases like Gary Powers with the U2; but a Fighter Pilot, is supposed to be ummmm, a FIGHTER. Saying cyanide is an option is a mistake. Of course you don't want to get caught, of course you don't want to be tortured; but every torture video the animals do is a recruitment for our guys. I just binged watched 24 and kept thinking "let them do it" and we will have 1000s taking up arms against them and any that support them.... Remember back to the first beheading video that was posted and the anger you felt toward them. This is no different.

Pilots carrying cyanide is a TOTALLY wrong mindset. If its OK for pilots, then why not infantry OR cooks and clerks, in case they get over run?

I totally agree with killing the bastards en masse. But, a fighter pilot down behind enemy lines with a finite supply of ammo.....and a REALLY long supply line....might dictate you having a "plan B" for WHEN you run out of ammo. Am I missing something here?

moses1moses11
05-29-2017, 06:42 PM
Cyanide capsule, perhaps a small VX container or just the classic handgrenade. Or easier carry a spare JHP, so you can make your choice, when there.

EDELWEISS
05-30-2017, 06:51 AM
I'm frankly amazed by these thoughts of suicide to avoid torture. I have more sympathy for someone who opts for suicide because he has a disease. A terminal patient who chooses suicide does it knowing he will die and there will be little positive from his lingering death. A soldier, a fighter, a WARRIOR, deciding to take his own life rather than be captured, even knowing he will likely face torture, isn't choosing a noble death, hes choosing a death that he thinks will be less painful; but hes not being a warrior. The questionable painlessness of cyanide argument aside, suicide in that manner, is useless cowardice. It doesn't hurt the enemy, they don't honor the death. They wont send his body home as a hero. They wont have a parade for a fallen warrior; but they may still drag him through the streets. It doesn't save the soldiers' families from his loss, they still lose a son, father, brother, friend and they also know he stopped fighting to avoid being captured. It DOES prevent the enemy from displaying his death and THAT is OUR victory. Every time a haji video of the torture and death of one of our warriors appears is a victory for us. In their terms it gives us martyrs. Soldiers killed by them are our HEROS. Its our victory, it increases our drive to fight them, or motivation to stop them and out HATE.

Cyanide to avoid capture and torture, is stupid. I tried to say it another way so it wouldn't hurt anyone's feelings; but its so short sided, that it begs to be outed. Its akin to issuing cyanide to women in case they are about to be raped, or small children because they might be abused, or your wife because she may burn dinner. Of course no soldier relishes the thought of torture, neither does he look forward to the fun of finding his buddy is fucking his wife while hes away and the joys of the divorce when he get home; but warriors fight, and they keep fighting, if necessary they fight to the last, and they leave us a memory so we may continue their fight.

Papa
05-30-2017, 10:21 AM
1. What can they learn from you under torture?
2. Can they use what they learn to harm your family, comrades, unit, country?
3. Do you think you can hold out until your death without disclosure?

Not speaking here only of torture to inflict pain and humiliation.

Thinking we're a little off topic and a new thread might be in order.

barnetmill
05-30-2017, 11:55 AM
I'm frankly amazed by these thoughts of suicide to avoid torture. I have more sympathy for someone who opts for suicide because he has a disease. A terminal patient who chooses suicide does it knowing he will die and there will be little positive from his lingering death. A soldier, a fighter, a WARRIOR, deciding to take his own life rather than be captured, even knowing he will likely face torture, isn't choosing a noble death, hes choosing a death that he thinks will be less painful; but hes not being a warrior. The questionable painlessness of cyanide argument aside, suicide in that manner, is useless cowardice. It doesn't hurt the enemy, they don't honor the death. They wont send his body home as a hero. They wont have a parade for a fallen warrior; but they may still drag him through the streets. It doesn't save the soldiers' families from his loss, they still lose a son, father, brother, friend and they also know he stopped fighting to avoid being captured. It DOES prevent the enemy from displaying his death and THAT is OUR victory. Every time a haji video of the torture and death of one of our warriors appears is a victory for us. In their terms it gives us martyrs. Soldiers killed by them are our HEROS. Its our victory, it increases our drive to fight them, or motivation to stop them and out HATE.

Cyanide to avoid capture and torture, is stupid. I tried to say it another way so it wouldn't hurt anyone's feelings; but its so short sided, that it begs to be outed. Its akin to issuing cyanide to women in case they are about to be raped, or small children because they might be abused, or your wife because she may burn dinner. Of course no soldier relishes the thought of torture, neither does he look forward to the fun of finding his buddy is fucking his wife while hes away and the joys of the divorce when he get home; but warriors fight, and they keep fighting, if necessary they fight to the last, and they leave us a memory so we may continue their fight.
The way the hardline communists revolutionaries were supposed to do it when they ran out of ammo was to fix bayonets and charge or if possible pretend to give up with a hidden grenade and try and get close enough to kill some one important. I was reading during WWII that japanese would force surrendering Filipino resistance/guerilla fighters to remove their shirts prior to letting them get too close. They were known to try and hide something sharp and when close go for the eyes.
In the real world most of our enemies consider an american pilot to be a valuable prize and want them captured in reasonably good shape. Not true of ISIS. With them fight to the last breath.
We all have to die sooner or later for sure. Just how valuable is a few extra minutes, hours, or days to you?

barnetmill
05-30-2017, 03:34 PM
The defenders at the alamo did not surrender and at the end there was no choice. I think Deguello was originally from wars against the moors.

El DegŁello is a bugle call (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugle_call), notable in the US for its use as a march (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_%28music%29) by Mexican Army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Army) buglers during the 1836 Siege (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_the_Alamo) and Battle of the Alamo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo)[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Deg%C3%BCello#cite_note-Bruh-1) to signal that the defenders of the garrison would receive no quarter by the attacking Mexican Army under General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Lopez_de_Santa_Anna). "Toque a DegŁello" was introduced to the Americas by the Spanish armies and was later adopted by the patriot armies fighting against them during the Spanish American wars of independence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_American_wars_of_independence). It was also widely used by Simon Bolivar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Bolivar)'s armies, notably during the Battle of Junin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junin_Battle)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Deg%C3%BCello#cite_note-2) and the Battle of Ayacucho (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ayacucho).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Deg%C3%BCello#cite_note-3)
"DegŁello" is a Spanish noun from the verb "degollar (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/degollar)", to describe the action of throat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throat)-cutting. More figuratively, it means "give no quarter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_quarter)."[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Deg%C3%BCello#cite_note-Bruh-1) It "signifies the act of beheading or throat-cutting and in Spanish history became associated with the battle music, which, in different versions, meant complete destruction of the enemy without mercy."[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Deg%C3%BCello#cite_note-4) It is similar to the war cry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_cry) "°A degŁello!" used by Cuban rebels in the 19th century to launch mounted charges against the Spanish infantry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5RjjRe4dd4

BillyOblivion
05-30-2017, 05:35 PM
I totally agree with killing the bastards en masse. But, a fighter pilot down behind enemy lines with a finite supply of ammo.....and a REALLY long supply line....might dictate you having a "plan B" for WHEN you run out of ammo. Am I missing something here?

Fighter Pilots are trained to fight airplanes, not rifles. Their first job when finding themselves down behind enemy lines is to break contact and EVADE long enough for the rescue team to show up. It is NOT to get in a stand up fight where they will be out numbered by orders of magnitude.

I think a silenced, stocked pistols with a RDS and two spare normal capacity magazines is probably about what would be appropriate as that gives them (if they train) about the same range as a SMG, but discourages mag dumps.

And if they run out of options they can always take the weapon from the last guy they shot--which implies that they are familiarized with the oppositions weapons when they hit theater.

Their best weapon is a GPS PLB. and the ability to hide.

barnetmill
05-31-2017, 06:27 AM
Fighter Pilots are trained to fight airplanes, not rifles. Their first job when finding themselves down behind enemy lines is to break contact and EVADE long enough for the rescue team to show up. It is NOT to get in a stand up fight where they will be out numbered by orders of magnitude.

I think a silenced, stocked pistols with a RDS and two spare normal capacity magazines is probably about what would be appropriate as that gives them (if they train) about the same range as a SMG, but discourages mag dumps.

And if they run out of options they can always take the weapon from the last guy they shot--which implies that they are familiarized with the oppositions weapons when they hit theater.

Their best weapon is a GPS PLB. and the ability to hide.
For evasion the silencer had better be real effective. The noise of an air rifle is enough to attract attention of someone that is searching for you. A plane coming down attracts attention. If the terrain is open evasion is difficult. The locals if the area was bombed or strafed will be most likely highly hostile to you. They can be more likely to kill you than regular troops or local constabulary will be.

jlwilliams
05-31-2017, 04:27 PM
.......

Cyanide to avoid capture and torture, is stupid. I tried to say it another way so it wouldn't hurt anyone's feelings; but its so short sided, that it begs to be outed.....

As the guy who threw it on the table, I can report no hurt feelings here. We're here to talk, and that sometimes includes "...that's stupid crap right there...." so call it as you see it.

It's a historical reality. It has and will happen. I hold no personal butt hurt over anybody's thoughts on it. I'm glad enough to be able to look at it from a distance and talk about it as an abstraction because I'm not in that hot seat.

Ryan Taylor
06-01-2017, 09:48 PM
Suicide to avoid enemy capture has a long list of practitioners, many of whom were the epitomy of all things warrior.

There is no shame in going down on your own terms. Especially when you know capture=certain death of a particularly humiliating and painful nature.

EDELWEISS
06-02-2017, 06:42 AM
Suicide to avoid enemy capture has a long list of practitioners....

Not soldiers, spies yes, criminals maybe; but NOT Soldiers. Soldiers may sacrifice themselves, they may fight to the last bullet, they may jump on a grenade to save their buddies, or even when fatally wounded lie on top of a grenade to kill the enemy when moved; THAT isn't suicide. Taking cyanide to kill yourself out of the fear of torture isn't what soldiers do--its just not.

Also I wanna send out an electronic handshake to JLWilliams. Thanks Bro. Thank you for understanding.

laxman2979
06-02-2017, 10:39 AM
Not soldiers, spies yes, criminals maybe; but NOT Soldiers. Soldiers may sacrifice themselves, they may fight to the last bullet, they may jump on a grenade to save their buddies, or even when fatally wounded lie on top of a grenade to kill the enemy when moved; THAT isn't suicide. Taking cyanide to kill yourself out of the fear of torture isn't what soldiers do--its just not.

Also I wanna send out an electronic handshake to JLWilliams. Thanks Bro. Thank you for understanding.

I think that torture isn't the concern here, getting burned alive, like the Jordanian Pilot, or any other kind of spectacular death the minds of ISIS can conjure, is a concern that would merit this option being offered to pilots. Downed Russian pilots during their Afghan incursion preferred offing themselves knowing their likely fate at the hands of the Muj.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Francisp
06-04-2017, 08:35 PM
Not soldiers, spies yes, criminals maybe; but NOT Soldiers. Soldiers may sacrifice themselves, they may fight to the last bullet, they may jump on a grenade to save their buddies, or even when fatally wounded lie on top of a grenade to kill the enemy when moved; THAT isn't suicide. Taking cyanide to kill yourself out of the fear of torture isn't what soldiers do--its just not.

Also I wanna send out an electronic handshake to JLWilliams. Thanks Bro. Thank you for understanding. not soldiers??? Tell that to kipling as well as the French Foreign Legion
Rudyard Kipling


The Young British Soldier

When the 'arf-made recruity goes out to the East
'E acts like a babe an' 'e drinks like a beast,
An' 'e wonders because 'e is frequent deceased
Ere 'e's fit for to serve as a soldier.
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
Serve, serve, serve as a soldier,
So-oldier OF the Queen!

Now all you recruities what's drafted to-day,
You shut up your rag-box an' 'ark to my lay,
An' I'll sing you a soldier as far as I may:
A soldier what's fit for a soldier.
Fit, fit, fit for a soldier . . .

First mind you steer clear o' the grog-sellers' huts,
For they sell you Fixed Bay'nets that rots out your guts --
Ay, drink that 'ud eat the live steel from your butts --
An' it's bad for the young British soldier.
Bad, bad, bad for the soldier . . .

When the cholera comes -- as it will past a doubt --
Keep out of the wet and don't go on the shout,
For the sickness gets in as the liquor dies out,
An' it crumples the young British soldier.
Crum-, crum-, crumples the soldier . . .

But the worst o' your foes is the sun over'ead:
You must wear your 'elmet for all that is said:
If 'e finds you uncovered 'e'll knock you down dead,
An' you'll die like a fool of a soldier.
Fool, fool, fool of a soldier . . .

If you're cast for fatigue by a sergeant unkind,
Don't grouse like a woman nor crack on nor blind;
Be handy and civil, and then you will find
That it's beer for the young British soldier.
Beer, beer, beer for the soldier . . .

Now, if you must marry, take care she is old --
A troop-sergeant's widow's the nicest I'm told,
For beauty won't help if your rations is cold,
Nor love ain't enough for a soldier.
'Nough, 'nough, 'nough for a soldier . . .

If the wife should go wrong with a comrade, be loath
To shoot when you catch 'em -- you'll swing, on my oath! --
Make 'im take 'er and keep 'er: that's Hell for them both,
An' you're shut o' the curse of a soldier.
Curse, curse, curse of a soldier . . .

When first under fire an' you're wishful to duck,
Don't look nor take 'eed at the man that is struck,
Be thankful you're livin', and trust to your luck
And march to your front like a soldier.
Front, front, front like a soldier . . .

When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch,
Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch;
She's human as you are -- you treat her as sich,
An' she'll fight for the young British soldier.
Fight, fight, fight for the soldier . . .

When shakin' their bustles like ladies so fine,
The guns o' the enemy wheel into line,
Shoot low at the limbers an' don't mind the shine,
For noise never startles the soldier.
Start-, start-, startles the soldier . . .

If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white,
Remember it's ruin to run from a fight:
So take open order, lie down, and sit tight,
And wait for supports like a soldier.
Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . .

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!

F224
08-15-2017, 02:32 PM
I have close to a thousands hours of combat time as an ISR contractor flying over Indian country in the sandbox over the last three years. I was also my AirCav units SEAR Instructor back in my younger days. Here are some things for those here to consider;
First you must survive the crash, be it brought about by enemy fire or other reason.
Depending on the aircraft type, you might be alone, or with other surving crew members, who may be armed, or their weapons (most likely M9/Glock 19's and an M4) might be unusable or unrecoverable.
Evasion until rescue is best, keep as low a profile as possible.
Last stands and going down with a fight question; many of these guys have invaluable and highly classified information in their heads, we have value, to both sides.
Given a choice, I'd take any suppressed weapon over unsuppressed.
I always carried at least $500-700 in cash on me, you can buy your way out of a lot of situations when you can out bid the bad guys.
As a SEAL once told me...sometimes just taking a cab is the best option.

Greg Nichols
08-15-2017, 03:03 PM
Not soldiers, spies yes, criminals maybe; but NOT Soldiers. Soldiers may sacrifice themselves, they may fight to the last bullet, they may jump on a grenade to save their buddies, or even when fatally wounded lie on top of a grenade to kill the enemy when moved; THAT isn't suicide. Taking cyanide to kill yourself out of the fear of torture isn't what soldiers do--its just not.

Also I wanna send out an electronic handshake to JLWilliams. Thanks Bro. Thank you for understanding.

First I'll E&E, then I'll fight to the last round. Given the choice between having my head cut off on al-Jizzilla with a dull machete or eating a bullet.... I'll take the bullet