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View Full Version : Change in ATF opinion on "pistol brace" use



PastorM
04-24-2017, 08:32 PM
This looks like it will apply to various pistol braces. s-b is discussed specifically, but the opinion should logically (yeah, I know ... we're talking about the government here) apply to any brace.

https://www.sb-tactical.com/blog/sb-tactical-announces-reversal-atf-open-letter-use-sb-tactical-pistol-stabilizing-braces/

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CaptBeach
04-24-2017, 08:48 PM
I am sure Shockwave will have a letter from BATFE soon as well. At least I hope so...

Highwayman
04-24-2017, 09:03 PM
It's about to start raining AR pistols...

LawDog
04-24-2017, 09:36 PM
I finally SBR'ed a few rifles, just a couple of years ago. Now I find myself wishing I had just "braced" everything. Traveling with "pistols" is so much easier.

Yondering
04-24-2017, 09:47 PM
Well, that's why you have both, right? :)

The SBR still has benefits, mainly better stock options, but I do grab one of the pistols for traveling.

flyfisher
04-25-2017, 03:51 AM
Awesome

grizzlyblake
04-25-2017, 04:10 AM
So I'm understanding that the ATF is effectively stating that you can now legally shoulder a pistol brace AR for shooting.

I halfway wonder how much back room politics caused this since every American now owns a basic AR and the market is so cold. This should jump start the AR pistol market for sure.

Anyway - I've never had any interest in the AR pistols previously. Do the braces extend to normal stock length?

Blacked out
04-25-2017, 04:11 AM
I am sure Shockwave will have a letter from BATFE soon as well. At least I hope so...
This. I was just trying to convey the idea of a braced pistol to some local shooters in my AO. They missed the concept completely stating that they would just go back to their car and get their trunk gun. And how they have no problem hitting "man sized" targets at 50yards. Then going on about bracing it is dumb compared to a stock on a rifle and they would just carry an AR pistol. When asked if they did it was all crickets, of course they don't. I love this news though and hope we continue in the right direction.

coastalcop
04-25-2017, 04:37 AM
Excellent

Lots of my guys use AR pistols in lieu of larger ARs as patrol guns. I told them it was OK (before the open letter) and really not to sweat it after the open letter as it would likely fail a legal challenge. I guess the ATF (at least under this admin) realizes the same thing. They cant say they were wrong (and justify by discussing persons changing the physical parameters of the brace) but back off the shouldering part completely (realizing that it was an untenable position) Now i can tell them not to worry AGAIN.

will try to post the opinion letter

C.J. Singleton
04-25-2017, 06:37 AM
I'm glad SB continued working on the braces the new ones are alot better than the original sig brace. This is one of the new ones with a KAK buffer tube.

I'll choose a braced pistol over an SBR until I don't have to file a form to take one out of the state and illinois legalizes SBRs.

On the subject of this particular pistol it's a 7.5 300 blackout that I built with the dolos qd barrel system. I put a different bolt and a heavier buffer in it week before last and tried it out last Sunday thing runs great with supers both suppressed and un suppressed (with a 7.5 it still has less muzzle blast than a 10.5 5.56).

Once I got it zeroed I took off the can removed and re installed the barrel re installed my can and there was no POI shift.

Next on my list is the LAW folder this will make a great travel weapon and with the availability of 300 blackout ammo now I can put back a decent supply.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170425/16df98d8598774939728f071fafa086d.jpg

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barnetmill
04-25-2017, 06:41 AM
Are arm braces legal on PGO shotguns yet? Like those with 14 inch barrels.

valian
04-25-2017, 07:17 AM
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/04/24/breaking-news-atf-reverses-stance-shouldering-stabilizing-braces/

coastalcop
04-25-2017, 07:21 AM
already covered here

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?134693-Change-in-ATF-opinion-on-quot-pistol-brace-quot-use

EDELWEISS
04-25-2017, 07:33 AM
Are arm braces legal on PGO shotguns yet? Like those with 14 inch barrels.

Yes BUT remember it has to be an OTHER before you can go with a sub 18" barrel. Black Aces does this on their guns, the guns are POS's; but they do use a "conventional" grip with a AR type buffer and a SIG brace. I'm not really sure what the Brace does for a shotgun, although the SB PDW (think Honey Barger stock) brace keeps calling me...

Dorkface
04-25-2017, 07:45 AM
Are arm braces legal on PGO shotguns yet? Like those with 14 inch barrels.

They have been. A LGS by me has this magfed 870 pistol grip and brace abortion thing hanging on their wall...

Huntindoc
04-25-2017, 02:18 PM
Appears the ATF has reversed their reversal of the opinion on shouldering an arm brace. You can read for yourself but short version is that incidental or situational use of a brace against the shoulder is not a crime. Just don't remove the arm straps if so equipped. And don't be stupid enough to post pictures or video of you shouldering an arm brace without a stamp.

Barnes-Stabilizing-Brace-Letter-Final-3.21.17.pdf (https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15951&d=1493100610)

Greg Nichols
04-25-2017, 02:56 PM
This whole thing stirs up so damn much excitement. You all understand that these are opinion letters not laws and nobody has ever even been charged with the shouldering of a pistol brace, much less convicted of a crime?

I'm so glad I don't feel the need to ask someone else permission to live my life.

Funk me..

Kevin
04-25-2017, 03:40 PM
http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?p=3524


Unlike what a lot of hand wringers are saying, the opinion apparently applies across the board.

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Dorkface
04-25-2017, 03:47 PM
This whole thing stirs up so damn much excitement. You all understand that these are opinion letters not laws and nobody has ever even been charged with the shouldering of a pistol brace, much less convicted of a crime?

I'm so glad I don't feel the need to ask someone else permission to live my life.

Funk me..

Don't bring your logic to an emotional fight!!!

draken
04-25-2017, 03:50 PM
“Length of pull”—for lack of a better word regarding pistol braces—begins to enter a “gray area” above 13.5″. Above 13.5″ begins “to enter shoulder stock area.” from the above link...

:facepalm: Speaking of opinions....

coastalcop
04-25-2017, 03:59 PM
from the above link...

:facepalm: Speaking of opinions....

I can see manufacturers asking ( hopefully through a lawyer). Let's just not inundate them with calls and letters............. too late it seems ;)

coastalcop
04-25-2017, 04:01 PM
This whole thing stirs up so damn much excitement. You all understand that these are opinion letters not laws and nobody has ever even been charged with the shouldering of a pistol brace, much less convicted of a crime?

I'm so glad I don't feel the need to ask someone else permission to live my life.

Funk me..


Nope, haven't and wouldn't as they couldn't carry their previous argument to trial with any expectation of it passing muster. ( maybe if it was a baby killing supremacist as a tack on charge). They couldn't have even made it stick under killary, and that's saying something. Also why it was largely ignored by most folks that understood this.

Randy Harris
04-25-2017, 04:28 PM
For Pete's sake don't everyone start calling and asking "are you sure this is legal" like last time and get this opinion reversed too....take YES for a f*cking answer and go on with your life.

EDELWEISS
04-25-2017, 05:46 PM
This whole thing stirs up so damn much excitement. You all understand that these are opinion letters not laws and nobody has ever even been charged with the shouldering of a pistol brace, much less convicted of a crime?....

No they aren't laws; but they do have the force of law, the same way that Shockwave's/Mossberg's letter allows Gabe to build the STAKEOUT. Its an interpretation (yes their interpretation); but since they are the ones making the determination of legal status--IT DOES MATTER. Further it matters because some 100 ticket a month ass kissing wanna be a defective someday cop, could have used the old interpretation to arrest and charge some guy who was actually following the law; but being arrested puts you behind the curve and being arrest for a firearms violation even more so--Hell you could be secretly inseminating every NUN in their sleep and not be "that guy who got arrested for machine guns"

What DOES matter, is that it's NOW hard to see BATFE ever being able to charge anyone for blatantly using a "stabilizing brace" as a stock (courts don't typically like "yes you can, No you cant, Ok but only this way and then back to Oh ok go ahead and do it") --- AND this is going to be a grounds for attacking any prosecution of an unregistered SBR that was "made" by putting a stock on a handgun (GLOCK PDWs???)

If it's OK to shoulder a non-stock that's clearly a stock (even though its advertised as a brace) --- velcro strap on the side or not --- how can they prosecute a "real" stock?* OR a "real" stock that has a velcro strap on the side (imagine that)?* Hell what if the velcro strap that's too short to fit around an arm? It doesn't matter.* For that matter, how is the Shockwave brace "not" a stock?--but they said it wasn't Sooooo its not.

THIS is just one step closer to seeing the ban/tax on SBRs thrown out as unconstitutional, and certainly SBRs made from obvious pistols (Glock PDW???). Between this policy "shift" and the Thompson-Center (Contender) case they lost in the SCOTUS, there's a damn good opportunity to attack on the whole issue of SBRs, or at least those "made" from handguns....AND lets not forget the make up of the current court, plus with any luck Ginsburg and Breyer will be assuming dirt temperature soon enough for Trump to appoint a "court" that will take self defense laws serious...

Its a small step, maybe babies take bigger steps ; but its a step nevertheless--yeah I'm hopeful, cautious but hopeful. No I'm not rushing out to buy SIG braces (the SB-PWD looks better and better, so is the Tailhook from Gearhead)....

Greg Nichols
04-25-2017, 06:33 PM
No they aren't laws; but they do have the force of law, the same way that Shockwave's/Mossberg's letter allows Gabe to build the STAKEOUT. Its an interpretation (yes their interpretation); but since they are the ones making the determination of legal status--IT DOES MATTER. Further it matters because some 100 ticket a month ass kissing wanna be a defective someday cop, could have used the old interpretation to arrest and charge some guy who was actually following the law; but being arrested puts you behind the curve and being arrest for a firearms violation even more so--Hell you could be secretly inseminating every NUN in their sleep and not be "that guy who got arrested for machine guns"

What DOES matter, is that it's NOW hard to see BATFE ever being able to charge anyone for blatantly using a "stabilizing brace" as a stock (courts don't typically like "yes you can, No you cant, Ok but only this way and then back to Oh ok go ahead and do it") --- AND this is going to be a grounds for attacking any prosecution of an unregistered SBR that was "made" by putting a stock on a handgun (GLOCK PDWs???)

If it's OK to shoulder a non-stock that's clearly a stock (even though its advertised as a brace) --- velcro strap on the side or not --- how can they prosecute a "real" stock?* OR a "real" stock that has a velcro strap on the side (imagine that)?* Hell what if the velcro strap that's too short to fit around an arm? It doesn't matter.* For that matter, how is the Shockwave brace "not" a stock?--but they said it wasn't Sooooo its not.

THIS is just one step closer to seeing the ban/tax on SBRs thrown out as unconstitutional, and certainly SBRs made from obvious pistols (Glock PDW???). Between this policy "shift" and the Thompson-Center (Contender) case they lost in the SCOTUS, there's a damn good opportunity to attack on the whole issue of SBRs, or at least those "made" from handguns....AND lets not forget the make up of the current court, plus with any luck Ginsburg and Breyer will be assuming dirt temperature soon enough for Trump to appoint a "court" that will take self defense laws serious...

Its a small step, maybe babies take bigger steps ; but its a step nevertheless--yeah I'm hopeful, cautious but hopeful. No I'm not rushing out to buy SIG braces (the SB-PWD looks better and better, so is the Tailhook from Gearhead)....

This is exactly my point. The amount of mental energy wasted in a post this long for this topic if fucking mind boggling to me and going all ehrmagherd on something as inconsequential as this on THIS forum when there are more important topics, tactics, and kit we could be discussing just crushes me.

I'd love for more than me and Gabe to be the ones writing articles by professionals for professionals instead of a lot of the absolute nothing that seems to permeate most of these threads. I thought the talk surrounding shit that doesnt matter would be over after the election but its just continued on to even more random shit that doesnt matter or has been rehashed so many times without any new perspective. Maybe Gabe's right and the gunfighter's atmosphere is lost here and we can just write for the blogg instead of wasting time moderating

coastalcop
04-25-2017, 06:39 PM
This is exactly my point. The amount of mental energy wasted in a post this long for this topic if fucking mind boggling to me and going all ehrmagherd on something as inconsequential as this on THIS forum when there are more important topics, tactics, and kit we could be discussing just crushes me.

I'd love for more than me and Gabe to be the ones writing articles by professionals for professionals instead of a lot of the absolute nothing that seems to permeate most of these threads. I thought the talk surrounding shit that doesnt matter would be over after the election but its just continued on to even more random shit that doesnt matter or has been rehashed so many times without any new perspective. Maybe Gabe's right and the gunfighter's atmosphere is lost here and we can just write for the blogg instead of wasting time moderating

On a thread drift Greg, have you tried the first spear tubes on your plate carrier ? I upgraded my cumberbund on my current plate carrier after attending some recent training. Really liking easy of use so far.

Papa
04-25-2017, 06:47 PM
On a thread drift Greg, have you tried the first spear tubes on your plate carrier ? I upgraded my cumberbund on my current plate carrier after attending some recent training. Really liking easy of use so far.

Just saw their promo video. Time to upgrade.

coastalcop
04-25-2017, 06:52 PM
Just saw their promo video. Time to upgrade.

Dude the ease of connection is awesome and not having to empty anything ( mags pouches etc) to don/doff is worth the price of admission ( especially hauling ass driving your unmarked trying to get that thing on before arriving )

I liked my carrier otherwise so didn't buy one of their complete ones. If I was buying my first or this one wore out, I would upgrade to theirs

Greg Nichols
04-25-2017, 06:59 PM
No I've gone to a low pro carrier. Simpler is better

http://www.warriorassaultsystems.com/elite-ops-range/amour-carriers/covert-plate-carrier/covert-plate-carrier-mk1-coyote-tan-2/

Papa
04-25-2017, 07:09 PM
Got so annoyed with our old no-name SWAT gear I've been rolling on patrol with soft armor and the chest pocket plate only. This is worth a handgun or two.

Greg Nichols
04-25-2017, 07:16 PM
The linked carrier is only a 100 bucks and will do anything a fully mollyd out rig will, if not remove the pouches and toss on a chest rig.

Wears a lot like soft armor

coastalcop
04-26-2017, 04:45 AM
No I've gone to a low pro carrier. Simpler is better

http://www.warriorassaultsystems.com/elite-ops-range/amour-carriers/covert-plate-carrier/covert-plate-carrier-mk1-coyote-tan-2/


I really like that as a low pro rig! For a surveillance or low pro protective gig, that looks like an awesome setup and probably just as fast.

Our carriers are "preloaded" and we still require side armor. On proactive stuff it doesnt really matter, we have time. Though after the hit depending on the what it was, we might ditch armor for scene processing and then the tubes are nice and easy.

On reactive stuff, we are gearing up while enroute (you get the call, haul to the unmarked, haul to the scene) and hopefully ready to go when you arrive.

Thats why I thought the tube system was so awesome, get everything fit right with your kit once and it stays just like you need. Mine is set up with one side closed the other open and sits in the center floorboard behind the center console.

On reactive stuff you reach back with the right hand and lift it up over your head (if you cant manipulate the weight of your carrier with one hand in a moving vehicle, lift more or find a new gig) . Make sure your armor is between your pistol and body and drive with a knee for the three seconds it takes to close the left side tube, you never have to take your eyes off the road. You dont have to pull mags, flashbang, knives , or anything else off the kit to get the front of the carrier open to get the velcro done.

Its also a lot easier to doff if you go in the water. While the plates may be "buoyancy neutral" the rest of the crap attached to them isnt. You CAN swim and tread water in them.... but you dont want to.

Sharkey
04-27-2017, 12:12 PM
How about we just change the NFA or get rid of it completely and end this BS?


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Blacked out
04-27-2017, 01:24 PM
The linked carrier is only a 100 bucks and will do anything a fully mollyd out rig will, if not remove the pouches and toss on a chest rig.

Wears a lot like soft armor
How do you find the magazine retention with those pouches? Completely dependent with how much you crank down the Velcro?

COG
04-27-2017, 01:25 PM
:thumbup:

Eliminate the NFA!

Greg Nichols
04-27-2017, 01:45 PM
They're tight with no respect to how tight you pull the cummerbund but I will be adding bungies to them and have to the pouches on the cummerbund.

Blacked out
04-28-2017, 01:06 PM
They're tight with no respect to how tight you pull the cummerbund but I will be adding bungies to them and have to the pouches on the cummerbund.

Thanks Greg, I have been searching with no urgency for a set up that is way more slick than the typical carriers on the market. This one looks promising.

Bryan Bryan
05-24-2018, 07:55 AM
As far as I can tell, the law hasn't changed. Intentionally shouldering a braced pistol while firing it still converts the brace to a buttstock which converts the braced pistol to an SBR.

It appears the ATF only clarified that accidental or sporadic shouldering of the brace is OK when the brace is being used as it was designed to be used (the forearm is helping to stabilize the pistol for one-handed firing).