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fish78
03-31-2017, 06:49 AM
Is there any PRACTICAL advantage of 10mm over 9mm? I know the 10 carries more energy, but in a practical sense does it offer any advantage over the 9mm. Also any practical advantage in a smaller red dot than 8MOA? "subtends" roughly human head at 100yds...half that at 50. Use is as stated...personal defense at relative short ranges.

irishhunter
03-31-2017, 06:59 AM
The availability of 9 mm ammo vs 10 mm, and what you're most likely going to find in a pinch when you're out of ammo, is my practical argument against 10 mm. Of course everyone has their own feelings on this type of issue, so people will do what they like.
IrishHunter


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EDELWEISS
03-31-2017, 07:01 AM
First 9mm is a great SMG cartridge, and in the context of a "Machine Pistole" being a PDW, then 9mm is THE choice. Now as to there being better cartridges for a FULL SIZE Personal Defense Weapon or even a FULL SIZE Go To War SMG, then yes there are potentially better cartridges for Intermediate / Magnum SMGs. The debate of 9mm VS 10mm need not stop there, 357SIG is an option as are 762x25 and maybe even 30Carbine--and others.

MY biggest issue with 10mm as a Glock PDW is the lack of LARGE (larger than 15rnds) capacity mags. I keep hearing that KRISS (45acp) adaptors can be used; but I'm not convinced enough to buy a 10mm to test the concept. What I do KNOW is 357SIG does work and extends my reach when 9mm isn't enough....

baker
03-31-2017, 08:02 AM
Kriss 45 adapters can only be used for 10mm by modifying them and the spring.

Housertl
03-31-2017, 08:06 AM
Now that the Kriss is available in 10mm, they have said they are going to release a magazine adapter specific for the 10mm.

EDELWEISS
03-31-2017, 11:18 AM
Now that the Kriss is available in 10mm, they have said they are going to release a magazine adapter specific for the 10mm.

Well THAT does make a 10mm SMG much more interesting.... I might even consider a Kriss Vector pistol; but a QC10 10mm lower does seem the simple button. As for a Glock 10mm PDW, well that's interesting too.

Yondering
03-31-2017, 12:13 PM
I know the 10 carries more energy, but in a practical sense does it offer any advantage over the 9mm.

That is the advantage, in a practical sense or on paper, no "but" about it. It's a 5lb sledge vs the 9mm's ball peen hammer. One hits harder, the other can be used faster with less effort. Choose the right tool for the job.

LawDog
03-31-2017, 01:04 PM
As a cartridge, the 10mm is superior to the 9mm in every way imaginable. It has more energy, more reach, and arguably more potential accuracy.

But you aren't really selecting a cartridge; you are selecting a system. 10mm pistols are much larger and more difficult to conceal. Magazine availability is more limited. Ammunition options are much more limited. The argument in favor of 9mm is essentially that 'it will do.' No one will argue that 9mm is a superior cartridge. The argument is that you don't really need what the 10mm offers, so you should choose the 9mm because of the guns/holsters/mags/etc. But if you have a special need for that extra power (say, hog hunting) then you really should step up to the 10.

baker
03-31-2017, 01:14 PM
I have a Glock 20 set up with an aftermarket barrel and 3.25 Docter red dot. I like it, but I don't carry it much. I can't quantify that it is absolutely better when shooting people, and followup shot time is longer than 9mm.

And it's bigger than a G17, and ammo is heavier, and no 33rd happy sticks that I can carry in a front pocket.

Badger
03-31-2017, 01:55 PM
10 mm is one mm bigger than nine mm...so there's that.

AFSOCCRNA
03-31-2017, 04:51 PM
I bought a Glock 20 on a whim awhile back and I love shooting it. I'm going to put a red dot on it but I plan to wait until I test out my new Deltapoint on my 19 to see if I like that better than my RMR. In my dreams at night SI is going to build a Kompressor for it, that would be pretty sweet.

fish78
03-31-2017, 06:06 PM
Somebody mentioned bears, this is for two legged predators... Out to 100 yds.

LawDog
03-31-2017, 06:49 PM
Somebody mentioned bears, this is for two legged predators... Out to 100 yds.10mm should be good out to about 250m....if you are. The 9mm gets a little wiley after the 200m line. Several of us watched Brent Yamamoto ring still at 285y pretty consistently with a .357 Sig. If extreme range is the issue, 10mm will solve it for you. But .357 Sig will also solve it, and in a smaller package.

Badger
03-31-2017, 07:44 PM
All joking aside, if it's only for two legged predators, I'd concur with 9mm or even .357 sig if you were so inclined. I think 10 really shines on four legged critters.

khadga
03-31-2017, 07:53 PM
All joking aside, if it's only for two legged predators, I'd concur with 9mm or even .357 sig if you were so inclined. I think 10 really shines on four legged critters.

Assuming factory ammo options, does 10mm really offer much over .357 Sig?

EDELWEISS
03-31-2017, 08:00 PM
I think we also need to address barrel length and configuration. In a pure/conventional pistol configuration, I think 6 inches is about the useful limit for carry and use BUT if we're open to SMG/PCC or even something technically a pistol but more carbine-ish (AR pistol or even the Mech-Tech pistol discussed awhile back), then this is where the "special" rounds really shine. Imagine 10 inch performance with extra points of contact for better shot placement. That's where we need to be taking this concept...

Badger
03-31-2017, 08:07 PM
Assuming factory ammo options, does 10mm really offer much over .357 Sig?

I use DoubleTap ammo in my 10 mm and would have to dig out all the spec info to show the numbers side by side. If you are strictly going by what you'd find at most local gun stores, I honestly don't know if it matters much.

Brent Yamamoto
03-31-2017, 08:35 PM
I think we also need to address barrel length and configuration. In a pure/conventional pistol configuration, I think 6 inches is about the useful limit for carry and use BUT if we're open to SMG/PCC or even something technically a pistol but more carbine-ish (AR pistol or even the Mech-Tech pistol discussed awhile back), then this is where the "special" rounds really shine. Imagine 10 inch performance with extra points of contact for better shot placement. That's where we need to be taking this concept...

I agree with this in principle. But much depends on the particulars of the bullet loading. You can get 6" Glock barrels easily and with a PDW set up you have a mini rifle. I've worked with the 357 PDW a lot and 6" is a sweet spot with the ammo I've tested.

The 357 11" barrel Mechtech was not dramatically hotter than my 6" barrel Glock. Hotter yes, but not nearly as much as I expected and not worth it compared to the size/weight penalty. At least in the comparison to the Glock PDW.

I'm sure an AR platform would be easier to shoot than the Mechtech. But I'm not convinced the additional barrel is going to give you that much more with 357, and I'm not sure a 357 AR barrel exists.

I haven't worked with 10mm enough to comment.

Yondering
03-31-2017, 08:42 PM
Assuming factory ammo options, does 10mm really offer much over .357 Sig?

Yes. Roughly 50% more power and deeper penetration in meat.

jlwilliams
04-01-2017, 04:47 AM
I go back and forth over buying into the 10mm.

One thing I have noticed from friends who have gone down that rabbit hole is a predictable pattern. A guy buys a nice, new blaster in Big Ten. He loves it. He shoots it. He tries out the available ammo. He reloads. All the while blabbing like a ten mill evangelist to anyone who can't find a way out of the conversation. Eventually and invariably the Uberblaster gets tucked away for that bear hunt he has in mind to take "someday." He goes back to shooting and practicing with his default or he moves on to some new lust. It seems like a great round but it also seems like something guys buy just to buy.

I think the 10 would be great in a SBR, but then again the FBI took my tax money down that rabbit hole with the MP5-10 ("MP five and dime") They bought into it, shot it, evangelized it's glory, then mothballed the whole fiasco. Then they fell in lust with the 40, then they went back to 9mm. It's a predictable pattern of wasting money.

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't buy into the 10mm. I'm really writing this for myself, but you are welcome to it too. When I saw the thread it sparked my mind. "I better read this. Maybe I want a 10mm too. Maybe there is some nugget of wisdom in this thread that will get my checkbook out......" Thankfully as I read I thought about Jay and Rick and Dwayne. Those are just the few off the top of my head that I've known and shot with who did that exact pattern I described before. My checkbook is safe. For now...

fish78
04-01-2017, 05:49 AM
This discussion mirrors the one going on in my head. What got me thinking about this was the 3DLLC integrally suppressed carbines. They offer 9mm, 40S&W, 45 and 10mm. They are about 3 grand. My thought was to save money with Gabe's Glock PDW kit. So far so good. However a couple of things came to mind...if I am going to go the PDW route wouldn't a bigger diameter and more energy make sense? Then the idea of COMPATIBILITY with the 9mm edc came up...only one size of ammo etc. At this point I am inclined to think for MY purposes the 9mm makes more sense. Now, what about that 8MOA dot? Any PRACTICAL reason to go smaller?

callmebubba
04-01-2017, 08:54 AM
If I switch dot sizes from one day to the next, I see minimal difference. If I shoot the 3.25moa and then pick up and shoot the 8moa it's very obvious that it obscures more of the target. That said I don't see a major difference in my accuracy or speed from one to another.

barnetmill
04-01-2017, 10:44 AM
I agree with several others here 10 mm for pistol is for SD use against larger dangerous 4-legged critters. I think for a bear at bad breath distances to incapacitate requires a bullet to the brain or a bullet that can break bones. Not sure if the 10 mm pistol will break a bear's shoulder. A 9mm nato loading if it does not glance off will likely penetrate a brown bear's skull. Since black bears are the biggest thing we have in my locale I will stick with 9mm. Most black bears are not so much bigger than some of the rouge sub-humans that are out there. Mike Brown was in the 270 lb range which is a good size black bear. True bears have teeth and claws and thugs can carry weapons. On this forum most thing that 9 mm will do for humans and I think it will do for smaller bears also. Mike Brown did not stop from .40 cal until he took one in the head.

If I know a bear is out there I will use a semi .308 or 12 ga gun backed up with dogs. Chances are the mere presence of dogs will keep them off my place and worst case scenario the dogs will delay it enough to give me time to do what is needed.
So for the eastern USA the 10 mm imho is not needed in a pistol except for boosting one's ego. For non-pistol firearms I can see a use for it.

baker
04-01-2017, 10:59 AM
Well, 10mm is good for wild hogs, which are plentiful here in OK.

TACC
04-01-2017, 01:55 PM
Well, 10mm is good for wild hogs, which are plentiful here in OK.
And in certain areas of Florida

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barnetmill
04-01-2017, 04:24 PM
And in certain areas of Florida

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I am in florida and I did forget to mention hogs. What sort of penetration does the 10 mm give you on male hogs, especially the larger ones. I say male since the males are supposed to have cape that is very hard. Unprovoked attacks from wild hogs have not been in the news that I have seen. There have been attacks from blacks bears where the intent was to eat the human.
http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ABC_bear_attack_ml_141226_31x13_1600.jpg
Her dog attacked the bear and also the fat girl got lodged in the barrow ditch as the bear was dragging his prey (her) away for later consumption.
I know that a fat teen age girl walking her dog listening to music will not be carrying any gun for sure.
Point of it is that bears will attack when they are hungry and think that they have the advantage. http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-teen-recounts-escaping-bear-attack-ralphs/story?id=27835709 They will also attack if you get between a mama bear and her cub(s). A few years ago a neighbor about 200 yards down our creek did see a bear and a cub so that danger certainly exists locally for me. But the real danger are on two legs or slither. So it is humans and snakes and the 9 mm will do fine for that and in a pinch will kill a pig or bear. For a bear or pig attack I rather have the PGO that Gabe is selling.

Brent Yamamoto
04-01-2017, 04:41 PM
Now, what about that 8MOA dot? Any PRACTICAL reason to go smaller?

For a dedicated PDW, I would go smaller.

The benefit of the bigger dot is picking it up faster with the eye. The smaller dot will cover less if the target (whether that's a face at 50 yards or the tip of an elbow sticking out of cover at 10.

I prefer smaller dots on pistols but can certainly see the benefit of a larger dot...bringing it on target at arms length can be a little faster. But with the PDW it's more like a rifle and your eye will pick up that small dot just fine. It can offer just a little more precision if your marksmanship is up to it.

I also like a smaller dot because I have astigmatism and the bigger dots bloom more.

DogDoc
04-01-2017, 07:19 PM
I have several PDWs set up. For self defense carry, I have a 9mm so the mags match my carry gun. For home defense and for the woods, I use a Glock 21 with Kriss mags. Why the G21 in the house? Why not? I don't have to carry the big booger around and it makes big holes. I'm not carrying a backup pistol for bumps in the night so mag compatibility is irrelevant. I spend a lot of time in areas with bears and cats so the 45 goes with me on those tromps in the woods. A 10mm would be good for that as well but I don't know that it's much better than a 45 and a 45 is probably nicer on the ears in the house.

For dots, I much prefer smaller. My carry guns have the 3.5 moa. My PDW guns have 1 moa dots.

fish78
04-02-2017, 04:56 AM
My thought on the larger dot is simple. Without my glasses I have very limited vision AND my experience tells me that when the SHTF glasses become a quick casualty. I want a dot that I might be able to see with no glasses. Remember the Miami shootout, the best FBI shooter was rendered ineffective because he lost his glasses in the fight. As I recall, he was later among those killed.

baker
04-02-2017, 10:50 AM
Without my glasses, the dot blooms and looks larger. I am in the process of switching out all my RMR's to 3.25, from 6.5.

fish78
04-02-2017, 12:03 PM
Without my glasses a small dot just disappears. I can't see it at all.

khadga
04-28-2017, 03:27 AM
And in certain areas of Florida

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Like South Florida, Central Florida, and North Florida, and everything between the Atlantic and Pacific.

Coolhand77
08-25-2017, 10:05 PM
given that I have both a G17 set up as a PDW and am working on a G20/21 set up, I figured I would throw my two cents in.
Admittedly pistol bullets are sucky stoppers, and a STOCK g17 or extended G17 mag carries a few more pills than a stock G20 magazine...HOWEVER, as others have noted, the Kriss extensions may become more available with the new 10mm Vectors, AND Arredondo makes a +5 extension for the stock G20 magazines [not sure what the total is with 21s but that gives you 20 round magazines with a G20].

Also, Academy has started carrying Sig 50 round boxes of 180 grain hardball rated at 1250 fps, which is just a smidge slower than the old Norma loads, for under $25 in my neck of the woods. Add to that similar offerings from Underwood and others, and even Critical Duty/Defense loads, I'm seeing more and more ammo availability and selection. Just installed a 3.5 moa RMR and universal red dot mount on it tonight, so I will be sighting it in tomorrow to see what she can do.

As a side note, I still have the G21 slide and barrel AND a G20 barrel in .40 S&W for when 10mm is unavailable or too expensive.

down side, its a big gun, but that doesn't bother me. YMMV.

Currently playing with ideas to modify my ENDO to work with it [gen 4]. I'm intending to try something new.
20 round to 30 round PDW in 10mm with a red dot [and suppressor down the road]...add to that a White/IR light and optional NVG and you have an...interesting combination.

We don't have bears here in Texas, but we do have feral hogs out the wazoo...I figure if its good enough for piggies, its good enough for two legged varmints...
...and there are some interesting loads from underwood that pull up around 1600 FPS from a pistol...

moses1moses11
08-26-2017, 02:44 AM
A Glock 17 kills hogs just fine. Lehigh penetrator or defense placed into a skull do a fine 1 shot stop. Just saying.

I would not trade cheap practice, parts commonality, after market mods, conceal ability, vast ammo selection, and the plethora of common things that make use ability easy, for some magic almost irrelevant practical difference. 9, 10 or 11, if it's a pistol it still kinda sucks.

Coolhand77
08-26-2017, 05:39 AM
A Glock 17 kills hogs just fine. Lehigh penetrator or defense placed into a skull do a fine 1 shot stop. Just saying.

I would not trade cheap practice, parts commonality, after market mods, conceal ability, vast ammo selection, and the plethora of common things that make use ability easy, for some magic almost irrelevant practical difference. 9, 10 or 11, if it's a pistol it still kinda sucks.
Define cheap practice? As I said above, the Sig Elite Performance ammo is roughly the same price per round as Winchester White box 9mm [ymmv] of the same capacity.

I wanted a .45 platform for compatability with all my dad's old ammo stocks [he still swears by the 1911 platforms...old dogs and new tricks] and have always wanted a 10mm anyway. As for concealability, if I'm concerned with that, I just pack my 19 IWB instead.
As for the "magic/almost irrelevant" comment...eh, maybe. But when Kodiak/Brown/Polar bear country guides started trading in their .44 mag Rugers for 10mm G20s and 40s, it sorta got my attention, and I decided I wanted one, bear country or not.
Like I said, it didn't replace my 9mm pistols, it just added to the tool box.

Screwball
08-26-2017, 09:27 AM
10mm is a great round, and I'm glad there has been more interest in it lately. I've had a S&W 1006 for a few years, so will agree with most of the praise for the cartridge. Going longer with the barrel, it starts to give even better performance.

That bad for the 10mm is the cartridge, itself. Most 10mm shooters tend to be reloaders (I am not, as I don't have the room yet). With more available ammo in 10mm, which came out with more guns being released, it is easier to shoot... but still more expensive than 9mm. 10mm is up there with .44 Magnum, as my most costly calibers to shoot.

Lack of magazines over 15 rounds is another problem... especially talking about the Glock platform. Hard to beat 33 rounds of 9mm. Wished that Magpul expanded into other calibers (.45, since my 30S is my only Glock at the moment), with the longer ones. It would be the best bet of getting good/economic 10mm magazines.

Coolhand77
08-26-2017, 09:55 AM
Ammo: Sig has some competitively priced hardball practice loads, 180 grain at 1250 fps [out of a 4.5" barrel IIRC]. I pick up a couple boxes every time I swing by Academy
Magazines: Kriss extensions/magazines are coming out and as I said above, +5 extensions from Arradondo get you at least up to 20 rounds a magazine. They work with G21 magazines too...