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JohnH11B
04-20-2006, 08:27 PM
Tonight prior to getting ready for work I was reading a segment on one of the periodicals that I get over the computer. It was pertaining to shotguns. I have The Tactical Shotgun and have read it through several times. I noticed that in the latest article that you seemed, in my opinion, to have changed your opinions or thoughts or whatever on the switch to slug practice. If so, are you going to publish another "updated" book on the shotgun? I know that SRBG was a departure from your earlier works. Are you going to do the same as far as shotguns?

Thanks

Al Lipscomb
04-21-2006, 05:36 AM
Gabe might not answer too fast as I think he is out on a training trip.

Cold War Scout
04-21-2006, 05:40 AM
Gabe might not answer too fast as I think he is out on a training trip.

This brings back memories of Gabe, Mark and me vying for a computer terminal at Haji's everything store.

MTS
04-21-2006, 06:16 AM
This brings back memories of Gabe, Mark and me vying for a computer terminal at Haji's everything store.

+1:D ..........

MTS
04-21-2006, 06:53 AM
And i wasn't invited!!!!!:mad:

This was before we met you.:)

kevinstruemph
04-21-2006, 07:00 AM
If I may add to what Colombianito stated; possibly Gabe was suggesting in shotgun column is what you NEED to perform. Sure, all of the tac shotgun gear is really cool and may be useful, but it's more about the skill and will than gear on the gun.

Gabriel Suarez
04-21-2006, 07:07 AM
Gents,

I am sitting in a Morrocan Cyber cafe at present surrounded by ugly hadjis. The women, thankfully are covered up. And what makes this so interesting is that I am in the middle of Almeria Spain. The "Invasion" is well under way here and I can see much of Europe as islamic in a generation or two if things remain as is.:mad:

In any case, on shotguns.

Yes, I have rethought the shotgun business and believe that trying to make it into a rofle is a mistake. If you think youŽll need a rifle, get a rifle. Specially when these are available. Trying to make a shotgun do everything is like trying to make a pistol do everything. Not a good plan.

On books?, No, no more books. I will however probably do a shotgun DVD. Which will blow much of the modern thinking on shotgun away. That will be all though.

Market forces point to lots of pistol courses and DVDs as well as rifle stuff (particularly AK). Not many people seem interested in this weapon much these days. 2006 will probably be that last year we list shotgun as part of our course list.

Randy Harris
04-21-2006, 07:20 AM
As for people not being interested in shotguns, that is just proof that most folks aren't aware of what they don't know.

But you either understand it or don't and I'm either preaching to the choir or to the infidels who refuse to see the light:D . In their proper context shotguns are hard to beat.

michael
04-21-2006, 01:41 PM
Gents,

I am sitting in a Morrocan Cyber cafe at present surrounded by ugly hadjis. The women, thankfully are covered up. And what makes this so interesting is that I am in the middle of Almeria Spain. The "Invasion" is well under way here and I can see much of Europe as islamic in a generation or two if things remain as is.:mad:


Market forces point to lots of pistol courses and DVDs as well as rifle stuff (particularly AK). Not many people seem interested in this weapon much these days. 2006 will probably be that last year we list shotgun as part of our course list.

It's sad that Spain is turning into Hadji East. :mad:

As far as SG courses go, it's a shame that you will have to discontinue the classes, but the market dictates what you do. I guess I'm going to have to make the Memphis SG course if at all possible.

Anthony
04-21-2006, 01:50 PM
As for people not being interested in shotguns, that is just proof that most folks aren't aware of what they don't know.

But you either understand it or don't and I'm either preaching to the choir or to the infidels who refuse to see the light:D . In their proper context shotguns are hard to beat.
+1.
I have always felt that a shotgun is the best weapon to take to a pistol fight.
Home defense pistol distances etc etc.
Besides this, I personally have little use for them.
I'll take a carbine/rifle over a shotgun ANY day, for general purpose use.
Regards,
Anthony.

Steve Collins
04-22-2006, 06:52 AM
I've told many people the same thing, Anthony. I gave up trying to make my shotgun "do everything" and use it where it most suited: close range! I agree with you, though, I normally take a rifle for most everything else.

Michael Biggs
04-22-2006, 11:26 AM
The shotgun continues to be a mainstay in my personal defense plans and I continue to train with. The shotgun in the cheapest firearm to convert to a "Tactical" piece. I like rifle, pistols and revolvers as much as the next guy, but I love my shotgun.

Far from obsolete, but you choose your gear and take your chances. My Remington provides me with piece of mind.

michael
04-22-2006, 01:18 PM
Ayoob once said that the pistol is infantry and the shotgun artillery. That makes good sense to me, and there is nothing I would rather have if I am in an ensconced position in my house waiting on the bad guys to enter. That is the realm of the SG and where it is king.

Randy Harris
04-22-2006, 02:38 PM
The shotgun is hard to beat in a defensive position when the BGs are "funnelled" into your position. Also up close, like Anthony mentioned, at "pistol distance" the shotgun RULES. Ever wonder why the 1897 winchester pump shotgun was so popular for trench warfare in WWI?

But the shotgun is a master of a few trades, and merely a jack of all the others. It does a very FEW things exceptionally well and nothing particularly well outside it's narrow "comfort zone". In a defensive position it is well suited and in a close range moving confrontation it shines. But as for an offensive weapon, the rifle and subgun are FAR better choices. As with everything, match the tool to the job at hand not try to make the tool to fit something it was never intended for.

Sure MY shotgun has ghost rings, but I don't have any illusions of making 200yd shots with it either.I just allows me to feel more secure if I were forced to make a "hostage shot" up close.(In reality it mostly just helps me shoot slugs at distant paper targets in matches better:D ) And yes I know the sidesaddle makes the gun heavier, but I lift enough iron to cope with the extra few ounces;) .All the other "accessories" are not really NEEDED, but they don't get in the way either. They make a good platform a little more user friendly (again you CAN use a handheld light and a pumpgun, but it is not ideal) and I don't look for them to make it into something it was never intended.

Dr.T
04-22-2006, 05:39 PM
It's true that the tactical uses of the shotgun are limited to some highly specific tactical situatuations. So my first choice is a 223 semi-auto rifle for most personal defense tasks where a long gun is appropriate.

However, I've seen a number of large animals killed with rifle fire and with buckshot. Those hit with buckshot within 30 yards have almost always gone down in their tracks. Those hit with high-powered rifles have gone down about half the time, even when the shot is through the center chest. Usually, it takes a spinal hit or a hit that breaks the pelvis or shoulder to stop a large ungulate. There's something about multiple simultaneous buckshot hits that is very, very effective, even in 20ga. Of course, animals aren't people, but anecdotal experience with OIS seems to indicate that within its limitations buckshot is at least as effective against assailants as any rifle, provided multiple hits are achieved.

Chuck Burnett
04-22-2006, 11:01 PM
2006 will probably be that last year we list shotgun as part of our course list.

I'm sorry to hear that; I'd hoped to get to one of your SG courses one day.

FWIW, our SG course numbers are increasing yearly, although I have to admit there aren't that many who come to shotgun as their first course with us.
This is likely due to our membership driven model, i.e. handgun brings in new members and they then try shotgun or rifle since it's part of the package.
This weekend I've got 31 shotgunners in my class compared to 130 or so handgunners on site.
A couple of years ago a dozen students was a good sized SG class.

Chuck

Gabriel Suarez
04-23-2006, 10:12 AM
Howdy Chuck,

I think the diff is that most attendees there donŽt pay the full price;) , and it is no more cost to run such a course at all since everything is there anyway.

Until I have a cadre of instructors whom I can pay well to teach courses regularly (and we are working on that), I have to decide between a CRG styled class and a Shotgun class. CRG family wins out everytime. Rifle will also win out as well as other courses such as AK.

6Gunner
04-25-2006, 10:32 PM
I'm glad I'm planning on attending the Colorado Shotgun class at the end of August! I've finally got myself an 870 that's about to get setup right and intend to transition to it as the primary home gun once I get properly trained with it, putting my AR onto the back burner as primarily an offensive weapon.

Which leads me to what is no doubt a dumb question: All things being equal, would you prefer to use a shotgun as a house gun, or an AR? Basis of the question: I'm at a point where I might be forced to cull the battery for unfortunate financial reasons and I'm trying to decide which platform would be the best defensive tool for my needs; i.e. house defense.

michael
04-26-2006, 01:46 AM
Which leads me to what is no doubt a dumb question: All things being equal, would you prefer to use a shotgun as a house gun, or an AR? Basis of the question: I'm at a point where I might be forced to cull the battery for unfortunate financial reasons and I'm trying to decide which platform would be the best defensive tool for my needs; i.e. house defense.

If you're talking house defense, then the shotgun is king. For example, you have the family gathered up in one room and are in an ensconced position waiting on the BG to enter the room.

OTOH, if you might need to search the house to rescue family members and might have to take a rescue shot, then the AR would definitely be the way to go.

Anthony
04-26-2006, 03:07 PM
If you're talking house defense, then the shotgun is king. For example, you have the family gathered up in one room and are in an ensconced position waiting on the BG to enter the room.

OTOH, if you might need to search the house to rescue family members and might have to take a rescue shot, then the AR would definitely be the way to go.
I must agree with Michael, which would hardly be a surprise.
6Gunner, - don't forget that there is another option, between the shotgun & AR ( or any other proper rifle for that matter.)
A pistol calibre carbine.
One can buy a shotgun AND a pistol calibre carbine, for the price of many ARs.
Keep the shotgun ready for situations of defense, and the carbine for offensive moments that might require an accurate shot. - The shot would be close so the fact that you have a pistol calibre only, shouldn't matter. ( Think head shots if possible.)
Regards,
Anthony.

Louie.M
04-26-2006, 04:57 PM
Fyi:

L.m.

6Gunner
04-26-2006, 08:57 PM
I must agree with Michael, which would hardly be a surprise.
6Gunner, - don't forget that there is another option, between the shotgun & AR ( or any other proper rifle for that matter.)
A pistol calibre carbine.
One can buy a shotgun AND a pistol calibre carbine, for the price of many ARs.
Keep the shotgun ready for situations of defense, and the carbine for offensive moments that might require an accurate shot. - The shot would be close so the fact that you have a pistol calibre only, shouldn't matter. ( Think head shots if possible.)
Regards,
Anthony.

Anthony - Thanks to both you and Michael both. Actually, your statement helps tremendously, because I do have a carbine such as you mention: a Marlin .44 Mag 1894 Ltd.! I hate to let go of the AR though; it's such an exquisitely accurate weapon. It was a lot of money though to get the gun and then set it up; money I could use for training.

Mine is a Bushmaster Modular Carbine, topped with a Leupold CQ/T scope and a Surefire 6P mounted to the forend. Anybody else have any experience with the CQ/T (i.e. durability, etc.)?