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View Full Version : The Modern Police Shotgun; Viewpoint of an Non-Millennial, Police Sergeant



JonathanNobody
01-15-2017, 12:46 PM
I think about a lot of things all the time these days. Recently, in between my frustration with our internal investigation system, Millennials in law enforcement and the Public's ability to simultaneously want my help and piss on me at the same time I've been thinking about shotguns - like a lot of WT members have in recent times. For what it is worth, here is the viewpoint of a seasoned, somewhat jaded, non-Millennial police Sergeant on the modern police shotgun:

I remember a long time ago when Police were strong men who grew up in the region hunting and killing things since they were mere boys. The shotgun was a staple in Patrol Division, and as Deputy Sheriffs we worked the worst parts of the County - you know, the parts in the middle of nowhere where backup was unavailable, the poor parts of town (think trailer parks and no street lights), or the ultra-rich areas where the locals became contract cities and didn't want to hire their own intrinsic police force. I worked the first two areas, and when we go out of the vehicle the shotgun went along. We were fortunate back then as we had buckshot and slug. You could shoot someone with whatever you chose, as long as you loaded the shotgun "buck, buck, slug, buck." One had to cycle through the buck to get to the slug. In the desert areas a slug was good to 100 yards with practice, but 00 buck was the staple of the trailer parks. I liked it as it didn't cut holes through the entire neighborhood and the action made a noise which communicated through intoxication or heroin or meth-induced behavior. The shotgun was nice, handled well, carried well and I didn't have to worry about additional metal parts needed to feed it or keep it in service.

To start, in the Academy we had Benelli M4s with 14" barrels. Anyone who's worked these knows they're amazing, but one needs to remember to hit the "feed me" button. They were deemed too complicated so out came the Remington 870s with 14" barrels and rifle sights. Those were even better and much righteous work was done in the name of the law and peace. As I type this I'm looking at my personal Remington 870 with wood furniture and a 14" barrel with rifle sights. I replaced it with an 870 with 20" barrel and T-1 RDS, which was worked over by Vang - a gift from Chris Nobody. Both have Property and Evidence tags so I know they work and have confidence in the system. The T-1 equipped 20" 870, with Federal LE 1 oz. slugs, was, and is, a rifle to 100 yards.

In the end, about three years ago, the intelligentsia - the ones who don't go outside or actually shoot people - decided the law enforcement shotgun was outdated and no longer serviceable. They were removed from service and replaced with AR15s. I distinctly remember the day when I was told the shotgun couldn't do anything the rifle couldn't do better. I though to myself about engines, windshields and trailer parks, but it was all for naught.

Now, we run around with AR15s, and with the last time someone shooting at me involving several football fields of difference between us I do get it...the range, the accuracy and the quantity of 5.56mm BBs one has is impressive.

I miss the shotgun. I miss the authority and confidence it gave. I never felt under-gunned or inadequate.

However, in the modern age of policing where females are here to stay (I won't give my opinion) and Millennials push the patrol cars I just wonder if we haven't lost the testosterone required to handle the thinking man's weapon.

To those who have used the shotgun, we have a common respect for the system. To those who haven't, may you get the chance in some fashion. For now, my 20" T-1 870 is going to be my "less lethal" bean-bag shooting shotgun until "exigent circumstances" arise and "available equipment is inadequate" for the job....then I may, just may, break out those squandered buck shot shells I keep in my bag.

With respect,

JN

Sky Pilot
01-15-2017, 01:07 PM
For what it's worth, this greying old ex-lawman agrees with you entirely.
I too developed a profound fondness for the 12 gauge hearing aid.

Gabriel Suarez
01-15-2017, 01:48 PM
In rifle contacts, the shotgun cannot keep up. But in shotgun environments...where distance is not a huge factor, and where you have to operate at the edge of speed, the shotgun outshines the rifle. I have always said that all weapons are specific purpose weapons. Some tend to have more flexibility than others, but in their specific niche they rule the day.

Close Quarters, Urban Areas, Darkness, Multiple Bad Guys, Reaction Time At Minimum, and Need to be as Devastating As Possible - the edge goes to the shotgun. Can you imagine a charge of 12 GA 00 to the face at room distances? I can tell you first hand that "stopping power" is not a concern.

choirboy
01-15-2017, 02:56 PM
May God continue to Bless "The Long Arm of the Law" the venerable Remmy 870 and the MEN who run them.

Choirboy

Papa
01-15-2017, 03:27 PM
By the time I came to this gig, the 6920 was issue instead of the SGN. I asked if I could carry a SGN too. I was told "NO!" with a long additional discussion about liability and distance and how hard it was to convince management to issue the ARs in the first place. I offered to carry my own. No go.
This was, and is, especially irritating to a guy who'd been using his own 870 since 1975 or so, and who fired a shotgun (Remington 11) for the first time in 1967 or thereabouts.
Fast forward to a specialty unit in 2015, where I see guys peering in awe into the trunk of a Crown Vic during a break. Expecting a SAW or 240B or something exotic, I see instead an 870 with extended mag, sling and side saddle, not too different from the one I put together for my wife. "Very nice," I said, pokerfaced. This was privately owned, not issued, and you'd have thought it was a piece of the true Cross.
Incidentally, our AC unit still issues shotguns.

ChrisNobody
01-15-2017, 05:48 PM
My frame of reference is for a State Police force in a poor, predominately rural state in the 90's. The shotgun was a very common tool for them. There were few rifles in the field outside of specialty units. Most squads had a 'designated marksman' who kept his deer rifle in his trunk. Other than that, if you needed something 'bigger', you ended up using a shotgun. The patrol units had access to the Remington 870 police. Most of them were 18" models with rifle sights. Those officers were allowed two types of ammunition: 00 Buck and Slug. The training regimen was basically what they could get from Gunsite. Frankly, they tried to use the shotgun as a rifle replacement and it was only marginally effective. The office tended to consider slugs more highly as they would reliably penetrate automobile windshields which were considered the primary issue. One interesting training note was that there was a substantial amount of practice using 00 buckshot on tires. It was interesting that the 00 buck often would not penetrate the tire; however, it did produce enough force to unseat the bead causing an immediate flat. Thus, officers were trained on this as a way to stop those who would try to run through barricade situations, etc...

The specialty units used the 14" Benelli and modified 870's. The 870's were dedicated breaching shotguns and were only issues with breaching cartridges. The Benelli shotguns were very heavily used by the specialty units, which generally fell into vehicle teams and hotel/motel raid teams (both tied to counter-narcotics). Many of the Benellis were modified to include a 'duckbill spreader' by Great Lakes Armory (I don't know if they are still in business). In particular, they were set up to vertically spread shot as opposed to horizontally spread shot. At the close ranges that these were used at (generally under 60 feet), they would spread from face to bottom of belly with a center chest hold. The ammunition for these were all #4 buckshot. The use of buckshot or slug was strictly prohibited (buckshot would crack the barrel at the joint of the spreader - I understand that slug would tear it off). The SOP for usage was really fast. Basically, you had a full shotgun and then it was completely empty. Five rounds went down the pipe super fast and then one transitioned to pistol. I didn't see anyone practice reloading under stress.

While this information is coming up on 20 years old, I think it is still relevant. I personally still use #4 buck as 27 pellets at these ranges is absolutely awesome. Also, recoil is somewhat tame so it is easy to shoot quickly. If one needs to make a precision shot, it is very fast to transition to a Red Dot Glock and now you have minute of eyeball accuracy out to 75+ feet and minute of head accuracy out to 50 yards.

Gabriel Suarez
01-15-2017, 05:55 PM
I will add that I have used an 870 more times than I can reliably recall. Every bad guy I shot at close range with one died... except one, an anomaly perhaps.

Those who understand killing, know that a part of the equation is to damage the enemy's body sufficiently that it simply will not survive the trip to the ER.

The shotgun, properly used, and used in its niche, kills like nothing else. Not surgically like a rifle...more like a claymore mine in a toilet stall. And sometimes nothing but horrible destruction will suffice.

There is a place for the rifle, a place for the handgun, and a place for the shotgun.

Choose wisely.

H60DoorGunner
01-15-2017, 06:11 PM
I've never been a police officer, but when I was in Iraq, one of our missions was transporting general officers, "members of state"(the state wasn't necesarrily ours), and OGA people in and around Baghdad.

One of their mandates was that we carried in addition to the two machine guns, and other personal weapons, an MP5 or a shotgun...a close range blaster. Nobody else was willing to trade their rifle in on occasion for one of those, but having grown up with a shotgun for hunting, I was aware of its capabilities and drawbacks. On those missions, I carried a Mossberg 590A1 with a PGO....I suppose it's what they had on hand. I didn't like it at first, but the more I worked with it, the more I grew to like it. The way it was taught to me there, was the same method Gabe prescribes, push-pull at eye level. It took some practice, but it's certainly effective. The pistol grip though, wasn't the WITSEC style, but the older more vertical style. With full power 00, it didn't feel great on the wrist.

And on another positive note, Arabs seems to be more scared of a shotgun than of a rifle. Someone told me once that it had something to do with a dishonorable or unclean death, but I could never verify the veracity of the statement. But they sure were more respectful of the weapon. I guess the Bitch speaks a universal language hahaha

gssc
01-15-2017, 06:55 PM
Paul Howe has a great quote on shotguns. "You cannot sew up hamburger."

cco45acp
01-15-2017, 07:17 PM
In rifle contacts, the shotgun cannot keep up. But in shotgun environments...where distance is not a huge factor, and where you have to operate at the edge of speed, the shotgun outshines the rifle. I have always said that all weapons are specific purpose weapons. Some tend to have more flexibility than others, but in their specific niche they rule the day.

Close Quarters, Urban Areas, Darkness, Multiple Bad Guys, Reaction Time At Minimum, and Need to be as Devastating As Possible - the edge goes to the shotgun. Can you imagine a charge of 12 GA 00 to the face at room distances? I can tell you first hand that "stopping power" is not a concern.

The recent shotgun threads have got me thinking about niche and specific purpose weapons. I think the most general purpose of firearms is the battle rifle in that it can do all things pretty well but at weight, recoil and, for civilian self defense, an overpenetration price. Probably next most versatile IMHO is the 5.56 or 7.62x39 or 300 Blk carbine with the edge going to 7.62X39 or 300 Blk if over penetration is not a concern.

The shotgun is an interesting creature. I've been in situations where a couple of us had to carry shotguns in deployed near combat zone conditions in open country because we didn't have enough M4s to go around. Didn't like it. That said I think Gabe is spot on about the shotgun and I've broken mine out for night rural home defense use again.

Been also considering this with handguns. I'm wondering if the high cap 9mm may be a niche weapon for use when one prioritizes having to fight a rifle battle with only a handgun. Think a Mumbai or Paris attack. Or maybe a CCW having to transit/get out in a high crime gang area. I personally still prefer a .40, .45 or 10mm due to some threat of four legged predators in my area. I have even thought in my particular circumstances that going back to a 1911 due to cartridge and one shot accuracy might be a more general purpose solution for me, with high cap Glocks being reserved for trips to the big city. This goes against the grain of those on WT far more experienced than me so will probably not make a conclusion until I do some airsoft FoF and get some experience with a RDS Glock 9mm.

Clawalex
01-15-2017, 11:45 PM
I've never been a police officer, but when I was in Iraq, one of our missions was transporting general officers, "members of state"(the state wasn't necesarrily ours), and OGA people in and around Baghdad.

One of their mandates was that we carried in addition to the two machine guns, and other personal weapons, an MP5 or a shotgun...a close range blaster. Nobody else was willing to trade their rifle in on occasion for one of those, but having grown up with a shotgun for hunting, I was aware of its capabilities and drawbacks. On those missions, I carried a Mossberg 590A1 with a PGO....I suppose it's what they had on hand. I didn't like it at first, but the more I worked with it, the more I grew to like it. The way it was taught to me there, was the same method Gabe prescribes, push-pull at eye level. It took some practice, but it's certainly effective. The pistol grip though, wasn't the WITSEC style, but the older more vertical style. With full power 00, it didn't feel great on the wrist.

And on another positive note, Arabs seems to be more scared of a shotgun than of a rifle. Someone told me once that it had something to do with a dishonorable or unclean death, but I could never verify the veracity of the statement. But they sure were more respectful of the weapon. I guess the Bitch speaks a universal language hahaha

I did some training with my 590 set up like that due to the fact that the factory stock was a bit much for me, I went to the magpul stock and now I can run it along better but I'm thinking about the usefullness of a birds head style grip on such a long barreled shotgun. But I'm an over thinker and should just buy an 870 from Gabe and SBS my mossy.

grizzlyblake
01-16-2017, 04:12 AM
The recent shotgun threads have got me thinking about niche and specific purpose weapons. I think the most general purpose of firearms is the battle rifle in that it can do all things pretty well but at weight, recoil and, for civilian self defense, an overpenetration price. Probably next most versatile IMHO is the 5.56 or 7.62x39 or 300 Blk carbine with the edge going to 7.62X39 or 300 Blk if over penetration is not a concern.

The shotgun is an interesting creature. I've been in situations where a couple of us had to carry shotguns in deployed near combat zone conditions in open country because we didn't have enough M4s to go around. Didn't like it. That said I think Gabe is spot on about the shotgun and I've broken mine out for night rural home defense use again.

Been also considering this with handguns. I'm wondering if the high cap 9mm may be a niche weapon for use when one prioritizes having to fight a rifle battle with only a handgun. Think a Mumbai or Paris attack. Or maybe a CCW having to transit/get out in a high crime gang area. I personally still prefer a .40, .45 or 10mm due to some threat of four legged predators in my area. I have even thought in my particular circumstances that going back to a 1911 due to cartridge and one shot accuracy might be a more general purpose solution for me, with high cap Glocks being reserved for trips to the big city. This goes against the grain of those on WT far more experienced than me so will probably not make a conclusion until I do some airsoft FoF and get some experience with a RDS Glock 9mm.

I have a couple cop buddies who have gone back to 45acp pistols and traded in their ARs for .30cal semi auto rifles. It is an interesting circular progression for sure.

Gabriel Suarez
01-16-2017, 06:15 AM
I have a couple cop buddies who have gone back to 45acp pistols and traded in their ARs for .30cal semi auto rifles. It is an interesting circular progression for sure.


And one that is poorly advised. With modern ammo there is nothing at all that a 45 will do that a 9mm will not and far more times in succession.

I do not own any 45s.

On rifled, the 300 is growing in popularity but it is a niche cartridge whose primary attribute is it is silenceable. if the choice was 300 or 7.6x39 that would be an easy choice with the 300 getting the nod. 556 vs 300 is more task specific.

The 308 is a task specific weapon like the 12 ga. It has a niche.

H60DoorGunner
01-16-2017, 08:01 AM
And one that is poorly advised. With modern ammo there is nothing at all that a 45 will do that a 9mm will not and far more times in succession.

I do not own any 45s.

On rifled, the 300 is growing in popularity but it is a niche cartridge whose primary attribute is it is silenceable. if the choice was 300 or 7.6x39 that would be an easy choice with the 300 getting the nod. 556 vs 300 is more task specific.

The 308 is a task specific weapon like the 12 ga. It has a niche.

I think people forget that guns are only tools. Just like the ones you fix your house or fix a car with, they all have a specific purpose or a specific range of use.

Then again, there are people who try and drive nails with a Crescent wrench...

EDELWEISS
01-16-2017, 11:55 AM
As a cop, Ive certainly deployed a shotgun more times than a rifle. I'll admit that I argued against the shotgun or perhaps in favor of the rifle, but that was after the LA Shootout and having a rifle seemed like a good thing for cops. Leave it to the bosses to Fuck it up. The guys that never leave the comfort of an air conditioned office or risk more than carpel tunnel from typing memos about officers with mud on their shoes, decided the rifle had to be locked in the trunk with a bike cable lock through the action and around the trunk hinge. They also decided that every time it was "deployed" (as in taken from the trunk), a "Special" had to be written and of course signed by three supervisors before leaving for the day. They also decided not to issue any method for carrying spare mags and limited the officer to three GI metal mags--OH and NO SCOPE.

Back when I started, we qualified with 2 of the 10 rounds fired from the hip. Back then we used 9 pellet 00Buck and in classic "Boss" thinking the guns were carried "Crusier" ready (4 rounds in the gun, chamber empty). Another box of 5 rounds were in the glove box, that couldnt be reached from the drivers seat because of the computer gear. When you thought youd need the extra 5 rounds and had the time to circle the car to get them from the passenger side there was no approved way to carry them except just put the box in your pocket. I got laughed at because I carried two spare rounds in my shirt pocket, and "talked to" because I wore one of those 2 round carriers on my belt--xtra ammo wasnt approved.

Thinking back, those were the good old days, because in addition to the 9 pellet Buck, we also had the shotguns INSIDE the car. Now we hire the new breed of cops and drive smaller cars and use reduced recoil loads and store the guns in the trunk and dont have to qualify with it after leaving the academy. They are trying to eliminate the shotgun. They dont offer Bean Bag classes anymore and out TASERS (only a few guys in each station have them), can only be used when LETHAL force is authorized.

Its a NEW World of policing and NOT a brave one. Cops can say they dont want to check inside an "Open Door" because there might be dangerous in there...and not get "talked to" by shift or suspended for dereliction of duty, they can insist they work M-F day work because its better for their kids while they are still on probation, and not be told to consider another career choice, its OK call in sick because youre having cramps, AND you can demand a special bathroom because youre going through a sex change....

Gabriel Suarez
01-16-2017, 12:59 PM
The North Hollywood Bank Robbery was a very interesting event. The two guys were not skilled in our sense, but they brought violence and the capacity to deliver it. LAPD tends to suffer from a collective arrogance at times and the NH Bank Robbery was a total screw up that ended right. It is like the cat that falls off the dresser, somehow lands on his feet, and acts like he planned to do that all along.

Incidentally, I had planned on stopping by B&B Guns right around the time this was going down to pick up 1000 rounds of 40 S&W. Don Baroni, a friend and the manager advised me over the phone it had not yet arrived so I did not make the drive. Had UPS delivered my ammo I would have been at ground zero with my issued MP5...alas...what might have been...but I digress.

1). There were officers within 15 yards of the bad guys that did not take any shots. I understand the reluctance to shoot from cover while under fire, but it must be done and it must be trained. Even with irons and a pistol...even with a 12 ga shotgun and buckshot, an armed man at 15 yards - that is unaware of your presence - is a gift from the Lord God of Hosts...yet nobody unwrapped the gift successfully. How many of us can make a 15 yard head shot under poor conditions? I would say most.

2). I forget the names and don't feel like looking them up. The guy who is attributed to have committed suicide was being assaulted with pistol fire by a School Resource Officer. It was his ammo that knocked the bad guy's Beretta to the deck and I am told a bullet of his struck the gunman in the side of the head when he picked it back up. Suicide is more PC.

3). The other guy where you see the SWAT team driving up in their PT gear was contacted by happenstance. They were there to rescue a guy ostensibly trapped in his car by the gunfire while other units moved into position. They didn't realize what was happening until they were shot at. Making the best out of a bad situation, they fired under the car at the bad guy's feet on full auto. The second guy died of Positional Asphyxia.

4). The failings were that few officers were trained or knew about fire and maneuver, and likely if they did feared the policy attitudes that demanded perfection at all times. And fire and maneuver...while it would have worked...and did in the case of the Resource Officer, does not guarantee a hit with every round. The other was that even with LAPD's marksmanship training, which is pretty good as PDs go, few officers could make a head shot at 15 yards.

Results - They dumped the Beretta and gave everyone 45s. I doubt that if a man cannot hit a football at 15 yards with a Beretta 9mm, that he will do so with any 45...but what do I know. Then, they added rifles to Sergeants cars. Had the same event happened the following year, and there were no Sam Units with rifles, the same thing would have happened.

Regardless, that event paved the way for LE moving away from the shotgun in favor of the rifle. If police were craftsmen, it would be like getting rid of hammers and only using screwdrivers.

Rex G
01-16-2017, 01:00 PM
The shotgun has been my long-gun companion for almost 33 years of big-city police patrol. Briefly, when I was certified/qual'ed to carry a patrol rifle in 2002, I was without a shotgun, as I sold my 870 Marine Magnum, but soon missed it, and bought my current 870P, realizing that both the shotgun and rifle had their useful roles. (My patrol rifle certification has since lapsed, due to a combination of factors. I may well have aged-out of being able to be re-certified to carry a patrol rifle, as our timed qual is quite athletic; it takes me a while to get up and running, from prone, sitting, and kneeling. FWIW, duty belt size has not changed since my academy days.)

I just added a Benelli M2, with rifle sights on the barrel, which I was glad to find work well, without wearing my prescription eyeglasses, due to the widths of the rear notch and front blade, and the perfect-for-me distance from eye to sights. (The Benelli tactical ghost ring sights play silly games with my vision, and policy does not yet permit optical sights on shotguns.) It remains to be seen whether the M2 become my sole patrol shotgun, or whether one or the other becomes a dedicated slug gun. I am not saying a slug gun beats a rifle, but the shotgun qual is not a timed athletic event, as is the patrol rifle qual, so it suits my aging knees.

I used a Benelli M1 Super 90 on duty for a while in the Nineties, but the then-standard thin-profile stock was a torture device with heavy loads, and I did not favor the ghost ring rear sight, so I reverted to using a pump gun.

mike135
01-16-2017, 01:41 PM
The recent shotgun threads have got me thinking about niche and specific purpose weapons. I think the most general purpose of firearms is the battle rifle in that it can do all things pretty well but at weight, recoil and, for civilian self defense, an overpenetration price.

This has been common perception for a long time, but I wonder if it's as true today as in the past. Take a look at the gel tests for the various offerings from Hornady, for example:

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/308-win-tap/

They have multiple options that don't even penetrate as much as what you're probably carrying in your pistol every day. And then there are more exotic options like DRT. And the options for lighter-weight .308s continue to grow as more manufactures get in the game. We anxiously wait to see if the Desert Tech MDR .308 will remove many of the existing objections to the caliber.

But to the original topic--thank you very much JonathanNobody for your write-up. For the well-rounded shooter the shotgun definitely fills a niche that nothing else can. I can especially imagine plenty of scenarios where it has a place in any law enforcement response that involves multiple officers--backed up by rifles, it may easily be the best option for anything at close range where you want that first hit on a target to be the most effective possible!

cco45acp
01-16-2017, 02:31 PM
This has been common perception for a long time, but I wonder if it's as true today as in the past. Take a look at the gel tests for the various offerings from Hornady, for example:

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/308-win-tap/

They have multiple options that don't even penetrate as much as what you're probably carrying in your pistol every day. And then there are more exotic options like DRT. And the options for lighter-weight .308s continue to grow as more manufactures get in the game. We anxiously wait to see if the Desert Tech MDR .308 will remove many of the existing objections to the caliber.

But to the original topic--thank you very much JonathanNobody for your write-up. For the well-rounded shooter the shotgun definitely fills a niche that nothing else can. I can especially imagine plenty of scenarios where it has a place in any law enforcement response that involves multiple officers--backed up by rifles, it may easily be the best option for anything at close range where you want that first hit on a target to be the most effective possible!

Thanks Mike. I may try out the .308 110 gr TAP rounds. In a military context, my gut feel is the 5.56 is adequate to do the sorts of things the M1 carbine was used for in WWII and Korea and the .308 semi is more suited to do the sort of things the M1 Garand did. 5.56 has greater range capability than the M1 carbine. I think the shotgun seems to rule the night especially if you don't have night vision gear and also maybe room clearing. Thanks JonathanNobody for opening a good thread. The LE in the family indicate many firearms decisions are strongly influenced by what the female officers (or wanna be female officers) can handle now days.

Mike Heckathorn
01-16-2017, 04:08 PM
Thanks Mike. I may try out the .308 110 gr TAP rounds. In a military context, my gut feel is the 5.56 is adequate to do the sorts of things the M1 carbine was used for in WWII and Korea and the .308 semi is more suited to do the sort of things the M1 Garand did. 5.56 has greater range capability than the M1 carbine. I think the shotgun seems to rule the night especially if you don't have night vision gear and also maybe room clearing. Thanks JonathanNobody for opening a good thread. The LE in the family indicate many firearms decisions are strongly influenced by what the female officers (or wanna be female officers) can handle now days.

Keep in mind, 110gr TAP .308 doesn't perform as well on many mediums as the heavier .223/5.56 loadings that Hornady offers


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Johnny C!
01-16-2017, 06:24 PM
Another great thread.

And another great thread about SG's.

I'm still working to build up my second 870.

Thanks everyone.

John

cco45acp
01-16-2017, 06:41 PM
Keep in mind, 110gr TAP .308 doesn't perform as well on many mediums as the heavier .223/5.56 loadings that Hornady offers


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Thanks Mike. Are the mediums barriers like car bodies? I'm not LE so I think my defensive use of a rifle would be home defense or to have it while traveling to have handy in case of a break down or while camping. Would probably tend toward the .308 from some sort of breakdown break down like Katrina or it I was camping in an area with bears.

Probably been discussed already, but a plus to the shotgun might be lack of range in defensive use...a miss with a 5.56mm could sail downrange and still be lethal 400m away. I imagine 00 buck fired "level" with no hold over would hit the ground inside of 200m. In commercial areas with lots of masonry construction probably not as big an issue but the other night I was in a subdivision of balloon frame houses and thought if I got into a defensive shooting in a yard, any miss even with a handgun, might go thru the exterior wall of the next house. May be overthinking this....:cool:

Mike Heckathorn
01-16-2017, 06:54 PM
Thanks Mike. Are the mediums barriers like car bodies? I'm not LE so I think my defensive use of a rifle would be home defense or to have it while traveling to have handy in case of a break down or while camping. Would probably tend toward the .308 from some sort of breakdown break down like Katrina or it I was camping in an area with bears.


Use the compare function on hornadyle.com, then look at the gelatin shots.
When you compare TAP 75gr with TAP .308 110gr, you see that the performance is almost identical (with the edge going to the 75gr TAP). The big thing to consider, there's a lot more 75gr .223/5.56 TAP loaded in a year vs. 110gr .308.


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