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Gabriel Suarez
01-15-2017, 09:27 AM
51204

I have been working with the battle axe for a few now and have come to some conclusions.

1). This is different than a traditional stocked weapon. It requires a different attitude and shooting method than most use. Much of it once learned can carry over to stocked shotguns.

2). This is a limited ammo system. It requires reduced recoil ammo and I suspect at the end of the day, its best use will be #4 Buck. This is not a 50 yard weapon, but an approximation of the close range battle axe. Devastating in its niche. Only idiots will try full power loads or slugs here since you will not be able to run it well that way.

3). It is not a hip shooting weapon, although it can be used that way and many other ways. It is best used from eye level and can be run quickly if the shooter works it well. It is not a girl's weapon unless the girl is a powerlifter or MMA fighter. The battle axe is not an egalitarian weapon.

4). The front hand is the most important hand. It drives the muzzle forward as if stabbing the target with a bayonet. The front hand drives forward, the rear hand pulls back. This attenuates recoil very well and feels like you are suspending the weapon in place while firing.

5). There is a timing involved. Pull apart on the mount, compress on the recoil. As the weapon is fired, working the forend is necessary and cannot be done with the existing tension. Thus the tension is relaxed, and as the weapon recoils the forend moved back, front hand pulling, and then is closed, front hand driving. The front hand is more important than the rear hand.

6). Not having a stock the front hand tends to manage the recoil the most. If you are not strong enough to do a few bodyweight pullups and dips, pick a different weapon. Only the strong vikings used battle axes.

7). That said, the tensional changes make a chore of holding on with the front hand. I experimented with hand stops and various options and I think the best solution is a combination of a hard textured forend and a hand retention strap system like seen on the original Ithaca Stakeouts. After working with various forends, including the Magpul SGA, I am leaning more toward keeing the Remington Polymer rather than the Magpul...on this platform.

8). Anything that can be done to attenuate recoil (without going to useless ammo like those 2" shells), should be done. Between judicious ammo selection (low recoil buck, or perhaps #4 buck), and correct porting of the barrel, I think recoil concerns will be gone.

9). I have been working with bead sights. Given my notion that this is a close range weapon, I am not inclined to go ghost rings or rifle sights here, although there may be a place for a red dot. The concerns of the red dot are that without the additional points of contact of the stocked weapon, and without the cowitness effect we have on pistols...well...study continues.

10). I have seen these with heavy forends and side saddles. While I have reconsidered the side saddle concept with the introduction of the Aridus system, I do not think it belongs here. Keeping the weapon light is best and I have added a +1 magazine extension that is as long as the end of the barrel. That makes this a 6 shot weapon and that is just fine...at the beginning of the fight. Additional ammo should be carried on body not on weapon.

More as the concept develops.

oldranger53
01-15-2017, 09:49 AM
Any chance of a video of the firing technique detailed above?

-sent from phone...typos possible-

EDELWEISS
01-15-2017, 10:09 AM
Very interesting--many things to consider.

*I will have to experiment with the front hand PUSHING and the back hand PULLING. Like I guess, most of us Ive always shot it with the reverse (more traditional-Pulling with the front hand and Pushing with the shooting hand).

*Eye level shooting is something else I never did much. For me it was always High Hip; but Hollywood may have gotten this right without knowing it. The Book of Eli (Encyclopedia of Suarez) eye level position, certainly has more accuracy potential at ranges further than High Hip, which admittedly is largely instinct.

* Hand straps have not worked for me. Actually they work fine; but in haste to "mount" the weapon; missing the strap is possible and just feels funny. For me it wasnt funny enough to prevent shooting; but funny enough to hesitate at a lull to look at what was "wrong"--when I should have been reloading.

*Number 4 Buck, Hmmm very interesting. Ive been using BB and #2 (shot not Buck); but wishing for something different after Ive been reading all the threads. Im liking the Buck and large shot loads--at least in theory--as a good Close Range compromise

DopeForWind
01-15-2017, 02:59 PM
Any chance of a video of the firing technique detailed above?

-sent from phone...typos possible-

I seem to recall in another thread they said Nichols and Gabe were working on one. (Fingers crossed)

Gabriel Suarez
01-15-2017, 03:03 PM
Gotta get the Suarez guns finished first. All instruction must have marketing in it these days and the place for instruction for its own sake has been gone for a while now. So patience.

H60DoorGunner
01-15-2017, 06:25 PM
Very interesting--many things to consider.

*I will have to experiment with the front hand PUSHING and the back hand PULLING. Like I guess, most of us Ive always shot it with the reverse (more traditional-Pulling with the front hand and Pushing with the shooting hand).

*Eye level shooting is something else I never did much. For me it was always High Hip; but Hollywood may have gotten this right without knowing it. The Book of Eli (Encyclopedia of Suarez) eye level position, certainly has more accuracy potential at ranges further than High Hip, which admittedly is largely instinct.

* Hand straps have not worked for me. Actually they work fine; but in haste to "mount" the weapon; missing the strap is possible and just feels funny. For me it wasnt funny enough to prevent shooting; but funny enough to hesitate at a lull to look at what was "wrong"--when I should have been reloading.

*Number 4 Buck, Hmmm very interesting. Ive been using BB and #2 (shot not Buck); but wishing for something different after Ive been reading all the threads. Im liking the Buck and large shot loads--at least in theory--as a good Close Range compromise

On occasion, in Baghdad I carried a 590A1 with a PGO. The way it was taught to me was as Gabe prescribes...push-pull at eye level. The gun I was issued had the old, more vertical grip on it. With full power military 00, it wasn't pleasant on the wrist. But, it was effective.

Make sure you hold it at about arms length in front of your face though...I found that one out the hard way.

gssc
01-15-2017, 06:52 PM
It's going to be interesting to read thoughts on how this integrates in H2H after some FOF experiments.

SheepDog68
01-15-2017, 11:08 PM
The above pretty much describes my experience with PGO Shotguns as well! I too increased my caution after shooting it on a hot sweaty south Alabama afternoon fast enough that the recoil of the third or fourth round allowed it to escape my rear hand.

SD

barnetmill
01-16-2017, 07:25 AM
SheepDog68 The above pretty much describes my experience with PGO Shotguns as well! I too increased my caution after shooting it on a hot sweaty south Alabama afternoon fast enough that the recoil of the third or fourth round allowed it to escape my rear hand.

In 12 ga if number 4 buckshot is a viable option along with reduced loading, and ranges close, will a 20 ga version of the 'stakeout gun' be a viable chambering for this weapon?

PS
I will order the training video on this weapon type when it becomes available.

Gabriel Suarez
01-16-2017, 07:57 AM
Mine


In 12 ga if number 4 buckshot is a viable option along with reduced loading, and ranges close, will a 20 ga version of the 'stakeout gun' be a viable chambering for this weapon?

Feel free to make one but I have no interest in such a thing. And good luck finding a PGO "other" from Remington in that caliber.

PS
I will order the training video on this weapon type when it becomes available.

;)

EDELWEISS
01-16-2017, 12:33 PM
...will a 20 ga version of the 'stakeout gun' be a viable chambering for this weapon?
.

Gabe hit it square in the face. Remington doesnt "list" 20ga PGO guns. I think Mossberg might but the mosssy's are the same size as the 12ga guns so you gain nothing AND step down to a Mossberg.

I wish Remington did make a 20ga PGO, Id have one in a hot minute and PDW it in a heartbeat BUT they dont, so my 20 is in full trim as a "LITE" carry gun for the Green Zone. Its NOT my night time gun.

Rex G
01-16-2017, 01:42 PM
In the Nineties, during a time when a Benelli M1 Super 90 was my main duty/defensive shotgun, I put PG on my folding-stock 870, and taught myself eye-level shooting, using push-pull as described in an article on Witness Protection shotguns. I found this to work quite well, but a burglar took it from me, leaving me with just the Benelli. After I tired of being beaten-up by the Benelli, with its thin factory stock, I reverted to 870 pump guns, with normal stocks. I did not use another PGO set-up, because a policy change required stocks on our duty shotguns.

I recently added a Benelli M2, with today's much better Comfortech stock, so may try a Shockwave grip to battle-axe one of my 870P guns. If I find that I still like shooting push-pull stockless, it might be time to order an SI Battle Axe, or a factory PGO 870, to take advantage of the ability to use a 14" 870P barrel, to create a 26+" length, avoiding having to bother with an NFA weapon, while that option still exists. (If BATFE closes the door on this option, already possessing the weapon should mean it will be OK to keep it, if procedures are followed.)

Gabriel Suarez
01-16-2017, 02:22 PM
Mine


If I find that I still like shooting push-pull stockless, it might be time to order an SI Battle Axe, or a factory PGO 870, to take advantage of the ability to use a 14" 870P barrel, to create a 26+" length, avoiding having to bother with an NFA weapon, while that option still exists. (If BATFE closes the door on this option, already possessing the weapon should mean it will be OK to keep it, if procedures are followed.)

With Mr. Trump as POTUS I suspect the regulators will be quiet and may even be reassigned. At worst, you just add a 18" barrel back on.

Rex G
01-16-2017, 02:27 PM
Mine



With Mr. Trump as POTUS I suspect the regulators will be quiet and may even be reassigned. At worst, you just add a 18" barrel back on.

Yes, I am optimistic; we are good, for at least four years, thankfully. We will see how well the new President ages.

DutchV
01-16-2017, 05:16 PM
Gabe hit it square in the face. Remington doesnt "list" 20ga PGO guns. I think Mossberg might but the mosssy's are the same size as the 12ga guns so you gain nothing AND step down to a Mossberg.


Yup, Mossberg does have a 20 ga PGO, model # 50450: http://www.mossberg.com/product/500-tactical-6-shot-50450/

I haven't done the "recoil math" of 20 ga buckshot vs. the reduced load 12 ga to know if the juice is worth the squeeze.

EDELWEISS
01-16-2017, 05:27 PM
Yup, Mossberg does have a 20 ga PGO, model # 50450: http://www.mossberg.com/product/500-tactical-6-shot-50450/

I haven't done the "recoil math" of 20 ga buckshot vs. the reduced load 12 ga to know if the juice is worth the squeeze.

I just dont see the virtue of a 20ga gun thats the same size as the 12ga version (Mossberg). The Remington 20s are significantly smaller/lighter than the 12s.

I like 20ga BUT not as a PDW. I thought I would, but the size/weight between 20 and 12 isnt as noticeable in the PDW mode. Where the 20 shines is next to a 12 in full trim BUT only then if its not intended to be used as a first line fighting choice. My current thinking is the 20ga gun is a "Green Zone" carry gun where everything is supposed to be safe.

barnetmill
01-16-2017, 05:37 PM
Gabe hit it square in the face. Remington doesnt "list" 20ga PGO guns. I think Mossberg might but the mosssy's are the same size as the 12ga guns so you gain nothing AND step down to a Mossberg.

I wish Remington did make a 20ga PGO, Id have one in a hot minute and PDW it in a heartbeat BUT they dont, so my 20 is in full trim as a "LITE" carry gun for the Green Zone. Its NOT my night time gun.

While the PGO idea has been around for awhile, if Gabe and perhaps others get behind this concept of the 26" PGO, some number 0f 12 ga 26 inch PGOs will get sold by Remington, Mossberg, and others. We will see I am sure in the future a pgo in 20 ga pump.

For me the gold standard of what I want is a soft recoiling, reliable, semiauto 20 ga with a detachable magazine fed gun. There is nothing at all like out there at the present out there, but I predict in a few years there will be.

For the here and now I will put a pistol grip on a 12 ga pump and see what it feels like relative to control and hitting something. After all it is the reality of what we have that we need to plan on using.

Gabriel Suarez
01-16-2017, 05:48 PM
We will have Shockwave stakeout grips in the store very soon.

Chainsaw76
01-17-2017, 03:41 PM
Forgive me, but it is time for another of my stupid questions. This may well have been covered, and in that case, I missed it but; Will this SI Stakeout require a tax stamp? Is there EVER any need for a sling?

Definitely want one of these little jewels, is there a price estimate yet?

Thanks
jim

EDELWEISS
01-17-2017, 04:06 PM
Forgive me, but it is time for another of my stupid questions. This may well have been covered, and in that case, I missed it but; Will this SI Stakeout require a tax stamp? Is there EVER any need for a sling?

Definitely want one of these little jewels, is there a price estimate yet?

Thanks
jim

NO Grip requires a tax stamp. IF you start with a OTHER--a gun that left the factory as a PGO (any pistol grip) or a VIRGIN receiver, then the barrel can be any length AS LONG as the over all length is AT LEAST 26" (also the gun can not be concealed).

The Shockwave Grip is an inch or so longer than the factory Remington Birds Head Grip. With the (longer) Shockwave grip and a 14" barrel, the OAL is 26"--Sooooo you have a legal OTHER. Its just an OTHER. NO TAX NO PAPERWORK NO WAITING.

Going shorter than 26" turns it into a NFA item (AOW or SBS). Also (talking about) carrying it concealed (for the sake of concealing it--not simple transport) makes it a NFA item. Soooooooo dont rush out and buy a shoulder holster for it to wear under a trench coat.

Gabriel Suarez
01-17-2017, 07:29 PM
Do whatever you want.

EDELWEISS
01-18-2017, 05:27 AM
If I open carry it that way I'm not doing anything wrong... If I can't have the shoulder rig then what's the point?

Bro, I'm guessing your joking; but in the event youre not--Do you conceal carry a AR Pistol, or do you just carry it in a bag. There IS a difference. The NO Concealed Carry thing is part of why its NOT an NFA item. Maybe that's a silly part, but it IS a part. Concealed Carry shouldn't be a deal breaker for the STAKEOUT and open carry is well, just silly outside of a combat zone. IF you absolutely must plan your day around concealed carry of a short shotgun then go the AOW/SBS route.

WadeP
01-18-2017, 10:03 AM
So what to do for a sling? Single or 2 point?

Gabriel Suarez
01-18-2017, 10:28 AM
two point
african carry style

and after using it, i think a forend strap is helpful

Greg Nichols
01-18-2017, 10:29 AM
two point
african carry style

and after using it, i think a forend strap is helpful

Due to recoil management?

Gabriel Suarez
01-18-2017, 10:35 AM
Due to recoil management?


The front hand is the more important hand and it is doing alot of work. I find that slippage tends to happen at speed. Handstops beat up the hand, but the forend strap keeps the hand in the neighborhood and in play if it does occur.

My own...and the ones we produce in the store, will have them.

EDELWEISS
01-18-2017, 12:23 PM
The front hand is the more important hand and it is doing alot of work. I find that slippage tends to happen at speed. Handstops beat up the hand, but the forend strap keeps the hand in the neighborhood and in play if it does occur.

My own...and the ones we produce in the store, will have them.

Hmmmm I was sorta thinking about a hand stop at the rear of the forearm ; but then I'm still using a pull with the front hand pushing with the rear hand. I haven tried it yet and I don't know if I will because I'm pretty much sticking with a factory forearm--that's what I'm used too; but I'm open to improvements...

EDELWEISS
01-18-2017, 05:20 PM
Any thoughts for a light on the STAKEOUT. None of mine have a light. One has a 4 shot side saddle (FOUR is enough). I recognize the value of weapons lights; but I'm not sure the STAKEOUT really benefits from one??? Years ago, somebody made a gizmo that clipped onto a small light allowed a light to slip into a spot on the side saddle and point next to the barrel; but I haven seen anything like it in years.

Gabriel Suarez
01-18-2017, 05:50 PM
There is a place for a light...but this is not it. As someone who has actually been in quite a few real life low light gunfights...I have some ideas on this...perhaps an article for the NL.

Papa
01-18-2017, 07:42 PM
No light. For this tool, less is more.