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apamburn
12-29-2016, 07:25 PM
With all of this Shotgun talk going on, a section of one of my favorite books stood out to me this evening. Cooper's To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth. If you haven't read it I highly recommend it.

Oddly enough, Whenever I read an article or sometimes even a post from Gabe I think of Cooper. I guess it's the way he articulates ideas, tells stories, and such.

Anyways, I know we don't worship at the alter of Cooper and the Modern Technique here; I am posting this to generate further discussion about the uses of the shotgun.

Nevertheless, it is very interesting to see that some of his perspectives parallel some of the things that we have been discussing here recently...and that some of them don't. You can definitely tell that he is a rifleman looking at the shotgun from a rifleman's perspective, pressing a shotgun into the rifle mold, which is something that has been said before.

--Excerpt from To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth (Jeff Cooper, Paladin Press, 1998) (p 177-179)--

The Shotgun

The shotgun, which originated as a fowling piece, has come into increasing popularity in law enforcement circles in recent decades. When police in America find themselves embattled they invariably go for the shotgun, if one is available. This is only reasonable, since the combat shotgun is measurably more powerful than the police pistol and also easier to use. (Curiously, it is regarded as unacceptably brutal in Europe.)

To be used most efficiently the shotgun requires certain technical and training factors that are not widely understood. Those who criticize the shotgun for lack of range and lack of precision are talking about the wrong sort of shotgun, used in untrained hands. The shotgun is capable of astonishing precision at the very short ranges at which it is often used, since the shot charge does not begin to open inside five or six paces, at which distance it can be used like a rifle. Furthermore, skilled shotgunners generally prefer to use the single-projectile, which turns the shotgun into a very powerful short-range rifle. To those who insist that the advantage of the shotgun is its dispersed pattern it should be pointed out that in order to achieve a solid stop on a human adversary the pattern must be centered and a centered charge of shot is no more, or less, effective than a centered single projectile. (he seems to ignore the utility of a spread here in hitting obscured / moving targets...)

The combat shotgun must be equipped with a proper set of sights. Without sights its reach is about 35 paces, whereas with a good set of sights and a good single projectile it can add 100 paces to that distance.

Training with the combat shotgun need not be elaborate, but it must be complete. It is unfortunate that the very few of the people who are issued shotguns for combat duty, both in the law enforcement and the military establishments, have anything resembling proper training in the use of the weapon.

The shotgun comes into its own after dark, when ranges are short and speed and power are paramount (I believe Gabe has said as much too...but this statement is only true because of the spread of the shotgun...which Cooper just dismissed?) A shotgun delivers a terminal blow - which cannot always be said of a pistol, a machine pistol, or a carbine. For this reason the magazine capacity of the shotgun is not a particularly important consideration. A man who cannot handle a personal confrontation with two or three charges of buckshot probably cannot handle it with anything.

I was interested to find that the single-barrel, nonrepeating shotgun is very popular for guard forces in Latin America. A gateguard armed with one load of #00 buckshot must be taken seriously by intruders. If, on the other hand, he is killed or robbed, or if he defects, the enemy has not gained as much as might otherwise bet he case.

The shotgun can never match the pistol as a defensive arm, since you must go and get it. Neither can it match the rifle, since it cannot reach. On the other hand it has great usefulness in situations where the user is not quite sure of the situation, such as entering a confused bickering in which there will probably be no shooting, but may call for it if things go wrong. Thus it is attractive for police entry into questionable buildings. It drawback of large and bulky ammunition is not serious since it is hardly ever intended for sustained combat operations.

Probably its ease of use remains the most conspicuous asset of the smoothboare. Most men can be trained to use the shotgun effectively in less time and with a smaller expenditure of ammunition than with any other smallarm.

---Another excerpt, from the section on the Machine Pistol (p 181)---

The machine pistol (Glock PDW?) has evident utility in penetration attacks against buildings occupied by known hostiles. It is probably not as good as a shotgun if the inhabitants of the building may nor may not be enemy, but if a group of trained men penetrates close space in which all of the inhabitants are presumed to be hostile the machine pistol may be an ideal choice. (If we replace 'Machine Pistol' with 'Glock PDW' - admittedly I'm putting words in Cooper's mouth here - his position is the inverse of what we have discussed here, right? A shotgun is great for an environment with hostiles and no non-combatants we need to worry about hitting. For a mixed audience the Glock PDW would be preferred. Interesting that he has the opposite outlook).

Anyways, I tried to give credit to the author and publisher. I hope I didn't cross lines by posting this.

Gabriel Suarez
12-30-2016, 05:57 AM
I liked Jeff very much and I will say he was formative in my development as a teacher and author. I do and did disagree with Jeff on some points, but unlike many of his devotees, he never got upset when I did so. So some comments -

1). The combat shotgun must be equipped with a proper set of sights. Without sights its reach is about 35 paces, whereas with a good set of sights and a good single projectile it can add 100 paces to that distance.

Well, it can, but should that be a goal? A shotgun can be squeezed into rifle realm with the use of slugs, but it will never truly compete with a rifle. 35 paces is pretty good for gunfights involving multiple adversaries in the dark. Lets accept that is what a battle axe is for and devise it for use there...understanding that it can be stretched, but not making the stretch the goal.

2). Training with the combat shotgun need not be elaborate, but it must be complete. It is unfortunate that the very few of the people who are issued shotguns for combat duty, both in the law enforcement and the military establishments, have anything resembling proper training in the use of the weapon.

True enough, now and then. But now sadly, the bullet golfers have taken over the shotgun world and of course...golf is not war.

3). The shotgun comes into its own after dark, when ranges are short and speed and power are paramount (I believe Gabe has said as much too...but this statement is only true because of the spread of the shotgun...which Cooper just dismissed?) A shotgun delivers a terminal blow - which cannot always be said of a pistol, a machine pistol, or a carbine. For this reason the magazine capacity of the shotgun is not a particularly important consideration. A man who cannot handle a personal confrontation with two or three charges of buckshot probably cannot handle it with anything.

Hahaha. I recall a long discussion with Jeff at the Sconce about just a thing like this. His explanation described my first two shotgun events.

4). I was interested to find that the single-barrel, nonrepeating shotgun is very popular for guard forces in Latin America. A gateguard armed with one load of #00 buckshot must be taken seriously by intruders. If, on the other hand, he is killed or robbed, or if he defects, the enemy has not gained as much as might otherwise bet he case.

And this is true...most being pistol grip only pump actions last time I was there.

5). The shotgun can never match the pistol as a defensive arm, since you must go and get it. Neither can it match the rifle, since it cannot reach.

And its destructive nature...that is its greatest asset. It is a war hammer...not a scalpel.

EDELWEISS
12-30-2016, 06:54 AM
Ive been re-reading AND pondering Cooper's ideas about the shotgun. It was one of the few things I disagreed with 'back in the day'. Back then I was a MP, and VietNam was still fresh in the minds of the military, so too was the "pending" war with the Soviets in Europe. That was the same time Rhodesians and South Africans were fighting for their lives AND not all that long after the Brits had been using harsh words of their own version of the bush. In each of those cases (OK except the Soviets in Europe) SHOTguns had been used with good effect--and none of them were used with slugs or as a rifle.

A shotgun that shoots a group so tight it can be used as a precision rifle (to kill the Bad Guy holding a hostage), is useless as a SHOTgun. For that matter a SHOTgun that shoots slugs is NOT a SHOTgun. Slugs are poor replacements for rifles and SHOTguns with rifled barrels are even worse. A rifled barrel (or Choke tube), is all but useless with SHOT, and just silly as a rifle replacement as a combat weapon. Sure I suppose it has some use as a hunting tool; but that's not what we're really talking about, is it?

SHOTguns are area weapons. Think of them as carpet bombing VS a guided missile. Once you embrace THAT and you begin to understand HOW the SHOTgun needs to be used. Its a "machine gun" (albeit of very short range and vary limited capacity), on the perimeter on a dark night during a mass attack raining fire on the enemy. Its bloody. Its indiscriminate--and that's good a good thing. KILL the ENEMY. KILL THEM ALL.

DogDoc
12-30-2016, 07:56 AM
. To those who insist that the advantage of the shotgun is its dispersed pattern it should be pointed out that in order to achieve a solid stop on a human adversary the pattern must be centered and a centered charge of shot is no more, or less, effective than a centered single projectile.

I can tell you as a surgeon who treats gunshot wounds with some regularity that this is not true.

The only things immediately lethal about a gunshot wound are for the projectile to perforate either the central nervous system or a vascular structure of sufficient size to cause significant blood loss. A hole from a .22 bullet in the aorta will kill you just as dead as a hole from a shotgun slug... and in about the same amount of time. So, making more holes with a load of buckshot is a vastly better strategy to ensure damage than making a single hole with a slug for the simple reason that it increases your chances of hitting something that matters. The only argument for a slug over shot would be if that slug had better penetration through some obstruction standing between you and your foe.

DutchV
12-30-2016, 08:20 AM
Shotguns for slugs have gotten better recently, but they're still not great. And most of them are low capacity, bolt-action types that are not ideal for fighting. Getting decent accuracy is a finicky affair. You have to test multiple brands and styles of ammo to find one that works in your gun. Hunting with a slug is only desirable if you live in an area where it's required, or it's the best of the allowed options. Most hunters would rather have a rifle.

Gabriel Suarez
12-30-2016, 08:51 AM
We loaded with slugs whenever we expected a vehicle takwdown. But those were always close events and the reason was not precision but rather penetration through autobodies that even 223 would not yield.

I disagree with the "area weapon" POV. As I said...think Viking battle axe not a Musketeer Rapier.

jlwilliams
12-30-2016, 02:31 PM
Ok, I'm going to side track this thread a little.

I was also reminded of this Cooper piece recently while looking at a couple of interesting antiques. One was a Greener (Martini style single shot) police gun, the other an Enfield 410 police gun. The Greener was a purpose built single shot that fired a special shell that necked from 12ga down to 14ga. The Enfield was a typical Enfield bolt action converted to single shot .410. To distill down the conversation I had with a knowledgeable collector, both were made by the British because they were well acquainted with Sudden Jihad Syndrome. A few dozen men in formation with fixed bayonets (both guns took bayonets) will face down a crown of rock and bottle throwers, but a single man with the yearn for 72 virgins is only getting so far with a single shot shotgun chambered in a non typical round.

As the explanation unfolded, I remembered reading this same piece years ago. Also, I couldn't help but reflect on Churchill's famous assessment of Mohamedans.

I wouldn't want to face a fight with nothing but one of those antiques in my hands, but if the opportunity to add either to my collection (particularly the Martini) arises I may not let it pass. I'm still a sucker for a cool antique.

EDELWEISS
12-30-2016, 04:04 PM
Ok, I'm going to side track this thread a little....

I wouldn't want to face a fight with nothing but one of those antiques in my hands, but if the opportunity to add either to my collection (particularly the Martini) arises I may not let it pass. I'm still a sucker for a cool antique.

50955
They are available. I have one enroute. Its standard 12ga, not the special 14ga with 3 prong firing pin. If youre serious PM me and I'll send the link.

Gabriel Suarez
12-30-2016, 05:05 PM
https://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/4123/972964623/wm_7870641.jpg

The concept has had interest in the past by plenty of killers. Funny how we rediscover things every now and again. This is Bonny's Remington Model 11

Gabriel Suarez
12-30-2016, 05:08 PM
http://www.cairncastlemilitaria.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/DSC_0213.jpg

gssc
12-30-2016, 07:43 PM
Just google Bonnie and Clyde. Love this picture with the shotgun.

50957

EDELWEISS
12-31-2016, 11:31 AM
Heres the Chiappa "Terminator". Its an "OTHER" with a 18" barrel. Im not sure about the OAL; but I do recall a local shop offered to trim the barrel back to the mag tube without any NFA issues.
50964


https://youtu.be/2FZ7aX_AyBU

and heres the Triple Threat with the butstock in PG (sorta) mode....
50965
Since its only sold as a "SHOTGUN" the barrels have to stay 18" or longer (without going the NFA route); but the folks who build it are kind enough to make it with a full length buttstock that is designed to separate to a PG version. It only has one trigger so its "virtually" a 3 shot semi...

EDELWEISS
12-31-2016, 01:00 PM
Heres a NFA version with a 2 shot mag tube. If youre careful you cal load it so its a 3 shot mag. You have to drop an extra round on the lifter (one shell in the chamber, 2 in the mag, and the extra one on the lifter---but that means a lot of manipulation of the hammer and theres almost no spur to keep you from slipping...)

50969