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Gabriel Suarez
12-29-2016, 01:49 PM
PICKING A 9MM OVER A 223 - WHEN AND WHY (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/12/picking-a-9mm-over-a-223-when-and-why.html)

Wednesday, December 28, 2016 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/12/picking-a-9mm-over-a-223-when-and-why.html)

http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01bb09608cc7970d-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01bb09608cc7970d-pi)

At the risk of starting another caliber war, I want to answer a question that several members at warriortalk.com posed.

In essence: Why would we pick a 9mm like the Glock PDW when we can have a 5.56x45 SBR? Well...it is a valid question and I will give my perspective on this based on 32 years of experience going into harm's way as well as teaching those who go into harm's way.

Every weapon is a special weapon with a specific application. There are no weapons that handle every possible combat task equally well, and any choice is an exercise in compromise. While we all have personal preferences, the professional, or professionally-minded enthusiast should not have a "favorite weapon". Rather he should be skilled at a variety of weapons so that given some forethought and planning, he can select the best tool for the job.

Now lets recall the concept of the PDW and its pseudo-official definition:

A personal defense weapon (PDW) is a class of compact magazine-fed, self-loading, hybrid between a submachine gun and a carbine. The name describes the type's original role: as a compact but powerful defensive weapon that can be carried by troops behind the front line such as military engineers, drivers, artillery crews or administrative staff. These soldiers may be at risk of encountering the enemy, but rarely enough that a long-barrel weapon would be an unnecessary burden during their normal duties. Because of their light weight and controllability, they have also been used by special forces and by police units.

One point is very important over the others and the decisive point when selecting a weapon to add to the daily-carried handgun.

"These soldiers may be at risk of encountering the enemy, but rarely enough that a long-barrel weapon would be an unnecessary burden during their normal duties."

It will be far easier to go about one's daily urban life with a Glock PDW than an SBR 5.56. Again, if the Islmaic Jihad has issued a fatwah on you nad has dispatched a bevy of ISIS hitmen to take you out, you would be justified in going about your day in armor, driving a fortified vehicle with a Magpul D-60 equipped M4 at your side. Those not is such a situation will immediately find such steps impossible to maintain.

1). Weight. It is not simply about being short and compact as even an HK-91 can be made that way. Weight is a consideration as well. A heavy weapon is harder to carry, more cumbersome to deploy and slower to use. Thus more likely to be left behind out of convenience. A Glock PDW is far lighter than any M4 SBR, or other semi auto pistol caliber carbines. Thus it is more likely to be with you ready to be deployed.

2). Convenience. Aside from the weight issue is one of convenience. Having less to bring, less to remember and less to train is a good thing. Being required to stay on top of the manual of arms of a different platform is not a huge problem, but one that needs to be addressed. With the Glock PDW you have the same manual of arms...almost, as your everyday carry handgun.

Moreover, the PDW shares the magazine and likely, the caliber of your handgun. Thus different magazines are not a concern, nor is a different caliber. The same sight picture applies, the same trigger applies, the same everything applies.

3). Greater efficiency. This is a catch-all category where things other than caliber fit in. Some will question the point of adding a stock at all since they fancy themselves great pistoleers. Well, I suspect they have not worked with a stocked handgun.

The addition of a stock does a number of things. It allows for greater accuracy. Look, we shoot steels at 100 yards, and dimes at ten yards, routinely with our carry guns and I will tell you that doing that is easier with a PDW. Dramatically easier. It allows for faster shot to shot recovery. There is nothing to argue about here as you have at least four points of contact with the PDW as opposed to just two with a handgun. More points of contact equals more control equals faster shooting.

4). The caliber issue. This is and will remain a controversial point but there are situations where the 9mm is preferable to the 5.56. Unless one has actually fired a non-suppressed 5.56 indoors, with unprotected hearing, he will not think this is a big deal. Will your brain leak out of your ears and all your future earnings devoted to Miracle Ear? No, but the results will not be inconsequential either. And having several suppressors/silencers I am well aware of the possibility of adding one to the rifle, but then you have the issue of weight and length...again. The 9mm on the other hand does not have either of these concerns in the close quarters realm (the place where these weapons are intended for). An unsuppressed 9mm indoors will not be overlooked, but it is substantially less objectionable than a 5.56. And a suppressed 9mm will allow you to eliminate a crew of home invaders without waking the kids.

The argument about penetration is not as important today with the proliferation of rifle plate armor. In the past one could argue that the 5.56 was a better choice since it would go through body armor like a hot knife through butter. Now, with the availability of armor that is more "rifle proof", that argument doesn't hold as much weight. And yes, such armor is available and prevalent - all we need to do is examine the recent terrorist events in Dallas and other places. In short, if you can buy it, the bad guys can do so as well.

So the answer to defeating impregnable armor is not to continue testing it, but rather to bypass it. We do that with a greater degree of marksmanship skill and greater precision in our weapons. We seek the face shot as a matter of course rather than as an immediate action response. And if we are talking about shooting an adversary in the face, it will not matter if it was a 9mm or a 5.56. Not really. And that being the case, I suspect doing just that with a 9mm will be considerable easier, faster, and even quieter.

What sits by my bed at home and by my desk at work? The weapon depicted in the lead image of this article with a Silencerco Omega 9K attached and a 32 round stick of bonded subsonic ammo.

WinstonSmith
12-29-2016, 07:33 PM
I've shot .223 inside a house without ear pro, just because, and it's quite unpleasant. 9mm was significantly less so. .223 would literally "ring" every fixture inside and make you feel lightly concussed. 9mm would simply go bang.

Gary Hale
12-30-2016, 06:48 AM
Not that other articles are not practical, but this one really helped me with where I am at. Gives me information that I would not generally know. The ear thing is very practical and though my home defense pistol is 9mm, am now even more confident based on the article. thanks for the experience driven information guys.

henschman
12-30-2016, 09:52 AM
A suppressed 9mm is a great option for situations where being quiet is of the utmost importance... i.e. when even the crack of a suppressed 5.56 might bring too much unwanted attention. For anti-personnel use with subsonic ammo, the 9mm is far superior to something like a .300 Blackout. Have you ever seen a ballistics gel test with subsonic .300? Think a pencil-like wound channel and massive overpenetration. The 9mm on the other hand gives you plenty of options for subsonic rounds that offer more than adequate expansion and penetration -- several of which make DocGKR's list of acceptable duty ammo, like my 147 grain Golden Sabers.

It's a niche role, but when some asshole needs to go away and it needs to happen without waking the neighbors, you can't do much better than a suppressed 9mm.

mike135
12-30-2016, 09:59 AM
Solid stuff as always, Gabe--can't argue with any of it.

One question, though--why do you use subsonic 9mm personally instead of the normal stuff? I always assumed the only reason you would use subsonic 9mm is if you want to be as absolutely quiet as possible. For any self-defense situation, I always figured full-power ammo with a suppressor to knock down the volume was ideal. Am I missing something?

To the point from the previous poster about subsonic 300 Blackout--I have seen tests using specialized bullets such as Lehigh stuff that is very impressive in gel. Perhaps what you saw was using sub-optimal bullet designs?

Gabriel Suarez
12-30-2016, 11:23 AM
If I am running a can, I want to take advantage of it. Bonded 147 JHP will do well...and since we are face shooting...terminal perf is a given.

blastjv
12-30-2016, 11:24 AM
Subsonic 9mm is still full power, just heavy and slow instead of light and fast. I choose the +P Barnes stuff ordinarily, but there are Subsonic loads I am almost as happy to carry (Winchester Ranger RA9T is a favorite).

I dont know why Lehigh seems to be the only outfit that cares about making a 300 BLK bullet that performs at subsonic speeds...

RobertGuy
12-30-2016, 10:36 PM
My thoughts...

* The Glock PDW sound like a great tool for when out and about (mobile) and covert (going to the mall and taking a backpack). Still have a concern for not having the skill to shoot someone in the face in the dark or wearing mask, or if the bad guy moves too quickly at close range. Ideally I could rapid fire with accurate shots, but I need more practice to have complete confidence. But when going out, the PDW is the #2 tool to bring (pistol is #1).

* For inside the house the shotgun is still my choice. Why? It is too dark? Movement too quick? Can I see the face, or should I bet on multiple hits with one shot? Peripheral vision? And I'm not yet 100% confident in my skills with the PDW (yeah...practice). The shotgun downside is the auditory exclusion.

Perhaps with more practice I can make the Glock PDW the better choice for the home.

Great article...I remember getting razed for mentioning "auditory exclusion", and nice to see it get more attention. Being able to hear the bad guys' (multiple bad guys) movements is a tactical advantage I want to keep.

TXDMERC73
12-30-2016, 10:56 PM
Ha ha you sure know how to open up a can of worms Gabe! Allow me to introduce myself, im a member over in PAFOA 7 years now, i heard about this forum from there and the famous Gabe Saurez, i like this forum , it has some serious matters about firearms. 9mm vs 5.56 nato hmm i shot both and have both my bud has a 9mm carbine, 9mm has more penetration yep even with JHP but it dont have the shockwave of the 5.56 nato, with the right bullet 5.56 nato is devastating! I noticed some LEO are switching to 9mm carbine from the 5.56 nato i wonder why? Is it cost of ammo ? Long rang i would take my MPC over a 9mm but for close qtr 9mm is pretty effective and that PWS pistol lools pretty rad! The MP5 in semi auto is on my wish list !

Oh and ps im a glock fan and a windham weaponry fan i have a G19 TALO with pachymar grips and an MPC.

Dbltap717
12-31-2016, 05:02 AM
Ha ha you sure know how to open up a can of worms Gabe! Allow me to introduce myself, im a member over in PAFOA 7 years now, i heard about this forum from there and the famous Gabe Saurez, i like this forum , it has some serious matters about firearms. 9mm vs 5.56 nato hmm i shot both and have both my bud has a 9mm carbine, 9mm has more penetration yep even with JHP but it dont have the shockwave of the 5.56 nato, with the right bullet 5.56 nato is devastating! I noticed some LEO are switching to 9mm carbine from the 5.56 nato i wonder why? Is it cost of ammo ? Long rang i would take my MPC over a 9mm but for close qtr 9mm is pretty effective and that PWS pistol lools pretty rad! The MP5 in semi auto is on my wish list !

Oh and ps im a glock fan and a windham weaponry fan i have a G19 TALO with pachymar grips and an MPC.

I am a former PAFOA member. There tends to be less drama around here.

Welcome :)

Gabriel Suarez
12-31-2016, 07:54 AM
The one thing the 9mm in that platform has is shootabilty. An MP5 is easier to run than a 5.56. I expect at some point we will do a head to head CQB drill comparison betwen an SBR 556 and the PDW.

The shotgun...if you live alone...and if everyone in the place is a hostile? Yes. Otherwise...the PDW wins.

Gabriel Suarez
12-31-2016, 09:46 AM
I will also say that one could experiment with this. The longest shot in my home is 20 yards...from master bedrrom door to the back door. Yes...I have ranged every possible shot even including from front door to the mailbox.

In any case...put a football sized target at any reasonable distance (a football is about the size of a human head) (and outdoors at a range so you do not upset the Shield Maiden) and see how many times you can hit it reliably in say three seconds...oh...without ear pro. May as well train like you fight (all the Safety Fudds just left the room).

I will bet the properly organized 9mm PDW beats the 223.

The issue that 9mm penetrates surfaces better than 223 is something I am not convinced of, but assuming that is true, is that a liability? I don't think so and i will tell you why. There are plenty of times where you may need to shoot through furniture...I know a 9mm out of an MP5 will zip right through a couch. The guys that worry about errant rounds going astray and killing five neighbors next door need to work on two things -

1). The predatory mind set. Using this weapon in a home tells us you are either there defending, or part of a crew going in to dominate it. In either case the concept of "defense" as the gun community understands it is not present. You do not suddenly react to a home invader unless you live in a hostel with a bunch of meth heads. You get prior warning vis-a-vis the sounds of entry, a dog barking, electronic sensors (silent or audible...subtle clue just presented), and then ready an ambush for a free shooting. Once they present themselves in the proper location, you eliminate them without a word...legally.

2). Marksmanship. Anyone that cannot hit a football at room distances sucks at their skills and needs to spend time away from the fear-based training they received and train with gleeful and skilled killers instead.

Rustwins88
12-31-2016, 01:12 PM
Great synopsis Gabe. The "Swiss army knife" mindset is all too prevalent today. Folks want a vehicle that can haul a house, be as comfortable as a Cadillac and get Prius mpgs.

Seems similar in the gun world. There's a reason that a master mechanic has multiple redundant tools. Some work better in compact spaces, others have increased power when extra space is available. Ugh, I rely too much on analogies lol.

It all boils down to your intended role, and from my reading, nothin out there fits the edc-pdw-bag-gun role like a stocked Glock. Sure, the Scorpion is awesome, and I'd imagine that it's more ergonomic and enjoyable to shoot than and endo Glock, but it weighs in closer to 7-8 pounds loaded where the Glock is 3.5-4 pounds loaded IIRC, and the Scorpion has a bit more bulk as well. I don't know about most folks, but that's a night and day difference which has real world consequences.

I want a Scorpion, and a .300 blk SBR, and I'll get them as funds allow, but my pragmatism has steered me towards the Glock PDW as a go-to portable pdw. Thanks to Gabe and crew for always pushing the industry to the next level.

TXDMERC73
01-01-2017, 04:47 PM
Gabe , your forgetting 5.56 nato in a carbine is alot more accurate then a 9mm carbine under stress, which is why 5.56 nato triumphs due to laser accuracy at close ranges, i could hit a golfball with my MPC at 25 feet which is max CQB distance for indoors. My G19 i could hit a baseball or a softball at multple distances at 25 feet but a Golf ball size is tricky. Heck i could hit a football size blindfolded at 25 feet :finger:

Ps yea theres still drama going on over in pafoa , its nothing new and im used to it:cursing:

Gabriel Suarez
01-01-2017, 06:00 PM
Mine in bold off a tablet so excuse spellingbwith my thumbs.


Gabe , your forgetting 5.56 nato in a carbine is alot more accurate then a 9mm carbine under stress, which is why 5.56 nato triumphs due to laser accuracy at close ranges, i could hit a golfball with my MPC at 25 feet which is max CQB distance for indoors. My G19 i could hit a baseball or a softball at multple distances at 25 feet but a Golf ball size is tricky. Heck i could hit a football size blindfolded at 25 feet :finger:

Well...you need to step into the red dot world. We hit quarters at room distances. the footbal indicates a full head and indicatws the minimun skill.

A stocked Glock will outshoot any M4 at in-house distances.

Ps yea theres still drama going on over in pafoa , its nothing new and im used to it:cursing:

GemJedi
01-04-2017, 06:42 PM
Back from the range today. Used my Suarez PDW G17 RM04, with Suarez match barrel and slide plus flat and straight patrol trigger, as a strong side forearm brace, holding the PDW steady with off hand. This was at 24 feet, ten shots. I normally can't shoot for, well, you know.

51057

Gabriel Suarez
01-04-2017, 06:58 PM
Now imagine....a suppressor so it is silent...and a stock.

GemJedi
01-04-2017, 08:08 PM
I am going for maximum portability. Also considering switching EDC from 26 to 17, with PDW brace in everyday briefcase as more compact and portable. Maybe not ideal unassembled but carrying the second PDW bag is also not ideal. Perhaps a second PDW permanently set-up at the bedside with a light. My son is eying a few of my Berettas to take back to AZ, maybe gift them to make room in the bed safe. More to the point of this thread, I doubt any 223 could be configured towards this much portability.

51058

51059

TXDMERC73
02-15-2017, 01:09 AM
Are those mods legal ? I need to check my local and state laws if that's legal to carry inside of a vehicle?

coastalcop
02-15-2017, 03:19 AM
No different than any other pistol. It's an arm brace and not a NFA item. Lots of threads here on the pdw concept. If your pistol is legal, so is this

Rex G
02-15-2017, 06:04 AM
Are those mods legal ? I need to check my local and state laws if that's legal to carry inside of a vehicle?

Welcome to the forums. Just about everything discussed here is illegal somewhere, especially in socialist republics such as California and mainland China. In the context of this thread, the pictured handgun is equipped with a brace, NOT a stock. A stocked pistol is an NFA item. (National Firearms Act.) Most NFA items are legal, by USA law, but regulated. Individual states within the USA have individual state laws, and counties and municipalities within the states may have stricter laws. What to carry, and where, must be an individual decision.

EDELWEISS
02-15-2017, 06:23 AM
Are those mods legal ? I need to check my local and state laws if that's legal to carry inside of a vehicle?

YES its legal. its LEGAL anyplace where you can legally own a Glock. If it helps, think of it as the same for LEGAL purposes as a AR pistol (in the sense that you can own an AR pistol and use the buffer tube to brace against you cheek). The Glock PDW (as we've termed it), is a combination of your favorite Glock, the ENDO adapter, a Shockwave arm brace and the Shockwave buffer tube--(all parts BTW available from the Suarez store). Its NOT a stock! The Shockwave Brace is just an arm brace--still very LEGAL to own and use when braced against your cheek -- (like the AR pistol). Do NOT take it to the range and shoulder it, Do NOT post videos of you shouldering it, Do NOT save the world by guarding Recruiting Stations wearing plastic shoes and Burger King stains while shouldering it--WHAT you do when fighting for your life is between you and your lawyer--until then its LEGAL when used as a brace AND amazingly effective in that mode.

As for 9mm VS 223, well, 9mm is smaller/lighter meaning you can carry more ammo. Picture carrying two 30 round AR mags in the same back pocket as your wallet. Now think about TWO Glock 33rnd mags nestled in the same spot. The first requires clown pants and the second is something I do everyday in a business suit, with a 9mm PDW in my laptop bag

khadga
02-15-2017, 10:55 AM
What does a loaded Glock PDW w/ RMR weigh? Anyone scaled it?

Greg Nichols
02-15-2017, 11:00 AM
What does a loaded Glock PDW w/ RMR weigh? Anyone scaled it?

Not enough to worry about. The brace adds almost no weight.

GemJedi
02-15-2017, 08:29 PM
It is legal to carry a loaded pistol in Illinois with a concealed carry permit. But it is illegal to travel with a loaded rifle, it must be unloaded. So score one more for the braced pistol. And as I posted earlier in the thread, the braced pistol used as designed, braced against the forearm, is much more accurate than shooting a pistol two handed without a brace.