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Gabriel Suarez
12-21-2016, 02:39 PM
http://162.242.230.74/%7E/media/CC18440C055D44E6B05CE55603BC1638.ashx

So I have been thinking of this for some time, and have been in discussions with some staff...and quite a few students. There is still a tactical niche for the shotgun even with the vast proliferation of rifles and SMGs. And that being the case, we will be doing more with this platform...both training and development. Why? Simple...because only a fool limits himself to a single weapon platform. A warrior of old was skilled as an archer, as a swordsman, as a pikeman and halberdeer...and he knew how to crush a skull with a mace or cleave it in two with a battle axe. It is no different today. And today, the mace or battle axe is a shotgun.

So...just like the Glock rules the handgun world, (if you like XDs that is great...everyone else likes Glocks) the Remington 870 rules the base tier of the pump action shotgun world. We will not be doing anything with Mossbergs, or other pump actions. Sorry...the nature of the market with other models is not where we want to go. And while we will likely be doing things with semi-autos, this is not the place for the development of those platforms.

If you are interested in Remington 870 shotguns, lets build the best one in terms of barrel, finishes, furniture, controls, etc.

My plan is to build a dozen as exemplars of concept and definition of packages. Those will be put up for sale and then customers/students will be able to send theirs in for various options and accessories.

There you have. Let's begin.

Dorkface
12-21-2016, 02:59 PM
Put a pistol grip and a collapsible stock on the one pictured and I think it pretty much there. I hate the magpul 870 stock. For whatever reason the angle of it hurts my wrists; I'm not a small fragile guy either lol. One thing that really needs to exist is a quality folding pistol grip stock for the 870 and its kind of baffling why one doesn't from my perspective. My 870 has a mesa adapter with an AR stock, tube and grip plus a surefire fore end. The magpul fore end is a little more flexible since it allows a light to be attached and removed where as my surefire fore end is always there no matter what. Retro fitting with irons and the rail would be interesting but I haven't ever looked into it.

flyfisher
12-21-2016, 03:04 PM
Lengthen the forcing cone, screw in chokes, ghost ring or small red dot sight, magpul stock and forearm. The stock should allow for a good cheek weld depending on which sighting system is used.

shtgnr
12-21-2016, 03:05 PM
Except for a slotted shell lifter (can't see the bottom of the receiver) and a +1 tube extension your pic is spot on.

shtgnr
12-21-2016, 03:07 PM
And as long as you are asking, olive drab please.

Crusader8207
12-21-2016, 03:08 PM
I love the 870. My preferred set up is an 870 Police Magnum with the Mesa Urbino stock, Vang Comp safety, barrel porting, and sights, Aridus side saddle and a Wilderness Tactical sling. I would love to run a surefire forend on it but being left eye dominant I don't care for the controls on it. 2017 is my "year of the shotgun" and will be my focus of my training that year. Look forward to what you guys will be doing.

EDELWEISS
12-21-2016, 03:08 PM
THANKS Gabe!

I like short better than extra rounds, so its a 18" for me (assuming the Non NFA route). The P-Rail plus the low profile ghost ring is a great combo. Ive never had a shell slip; but a cut in the lifter so a shell could be pushed forward with a key or blade seems like a good custom touch. Id also want the option of a large safety button, if I was ordering a custom gun. Personally Im undecided on a side saddle (I can see Pros and Cons). The MagPul stock is just about 21st century perfect.

Now all it needs is a "Duck Bill" diverter :dunno: and a bayonet lug :grin:

Seriously what you have pictured looks sweet...

jmoore
12-21-2016, 03:13 PM
>>And while we will likely be doing things with semi-autos, this is not the place for the development of those platforms<<

Keep us informed when that time arrives. One early vote for the beretta 1301 - tac/comp.

geezer john

Jon Payne
12-21-2016, 03:18 PM
Tungsten or Aqua-Terra finish
Mesa Stock Adapter with Magpul CTR
Wilson Ghost Rings
Wilson/Scatttergun Tech Mag ext
Spring & Follower upgrade
Magpul MOE forend
870 Police innards
18" Improved Cylinder
Mesa 4 Shell side saddle
MS4 Sling

( Add rail for RMR/Vortex/Shield etc )

50864

kid_couteau
12-21-2016, 05:26 PM
I am of the same mind set as most

GOOD folding stock
Screw in chokes
Iron sights

Glock45
12-21-2016, 05:28 PM
The most important thing for me is a nice slick action. Maybe some coatings or custom work offerings on the bolt, carrier, and overall action to make it faster and easier to run? Stocks, barrel length, and ammunition storage will vary person to person and with different applications, but EVERYBODY would improve their shooting with a better action.

randyho
12-21-2016, 06:16 PM
12g and 410, please.

Ted Demosthenes
12-21-2016, 06:26 PM
>>And while we will likely be doing things with semi-autos, this is not the place for the development of those platforms<<

Keep us informed when that time arrives. One early vote for the beretta 1301 - tac/comp.

geezer john

+1 for The Greek

For the 870, I'd go with shtgnr's version or steal Jonny P's

Hasher
12-21-2016, 06:47 PM
You kno I am a shotgun guy. It's my favorite platform by far.

Ghost Ring sights. The Scattergun Tech are my preference.

3 finish options black, tan, OD Green.

Slick ck up the action and make sure the trigger group is deburred.


High visibility follower and replace the mag tube spring.

Slotted shell lifter.

Lengthen the forcing cone and if back boring is cost effective do that as well.

Choke tubes.

Simple sling and good attachment points.

Furniture i I like the youth stocks but the Magpul is a great stock and it will sell well.

Surefire foreend end as an option.

4 round max side saddle. Folks ant them even though a shoulder bag is a better option.

Mag extension.

You were right then when you said keep the gun as light and nimble as possible. You are still
correct in that today.

jcart
12-21-2016, 07:19 PM
Except for a slotted shell lifter (can't see the bottom of the receiver) and a +1 tube extension your pic is spot on.
870 is best kept simple. 18" barrel with extended mag tube, good sights and good trigger.

Papa
12-21-2016, 07:39 PM
+1, Flexitab, and I sure would like to see a safety forward of the trigger, like the Winchester 12, M1 Carbine and Garand.

CaptBeach
12-21-2016, 09:02 PM
18" with extended tube
Remchoke threaded barrel so a choice of chokes, standoffs can be used.
MagPul stock
Scattergun Tech ghost ring, tritium front
Slicked up trigger group
Button head safety
High vis follower
Side saddle for 4-5 extra rounds
Picatinny rail for an RMR? Would not cowitness with ST ghost ring unless proprietary design?
One of the SI high tech finishes. OD, FDE, GREY and BLK
Surefire Weapon Light with foregrip pressure switch.

TFA303
12-22-2016, 06:17 AM
Concur on the forcing cone and back-boring.

Also, (and of course, I knew Edelweiss would say it first) I think there's value in a bayonet lug on a shotgun.

jlwilliams
12-22-2016, 06:39 AM
I am also of the plane Jane is better on a shotgun school of thought. Few accessories beyond a sling. The factory gun can stand some action and barrel enhancement. Lengthened cone, better than factory action work and finishes all make sense. Optics are a maybe, but most of what I've seen weren't well thought out. I'd probably like optics on a shotgun better if I'd seen better stuff.

Slicked up guns and more training. That's what I think.

Dorkface
12-22-2016, 06:43 AM
What advantages do a hi vis follower and a slotted lifter give?

Greg Nichols
12-22-2016, 07:12 AM
all I know is I want in on the demo/promo video. I LOVE the bitch, I'm a surgeon with that thing.

EDELWEISS
12-22-2016, 07:26 AM
What advantages do a hi vis follower and a slotted lifter give?

Hi viz follower is "supposed" to let you know its empty when you see the bright green or orange--BUT-- it means you have to flip it over to look "why is my gun not shooting". A better reason is they tend to be slippery and longer so they don't get snagged like the old metal cup version.

The slotted lifter is in case you short stroke and a round gets on the lifter while the gun is locked. That "LOCKS UP" the gun and requires disassembly of the gun. The idea is with a slot you can use a key or knife blade etc to push the shell back into the magazine.

The thing is both are cheap things that make buyers feel like they got a cool custom gun-like shinny hubcaps on a beater car. Will you ever need them probably not but if you ever do, youll cuss for a week everybody that you didn't add them.

ShopMonkey
12-22-2016, 07:27 AM
Lengthen the forcing cone, screw in chokes, ghost ring or small red dot sight, magpul stock and forearm. The stock should allow for a good cheek weld depending on which sighting system is used.

i've done a lot of research and playing around with this and cannot find a single reason to lengthen the forcing cone. Why because its only function is to help mitigate felt recoil. by any kinetic test its an avg of ~3%. Now factor in the cost to perform this work. I would charge about 300-400 depending on barrel length and manufacturer to backbore, polish and refinish. do you really feel its plausible to spend 3-400 to dump 3% of felt recoil? Ive shot both shotguns with and without this work done and quite honestly, I don't notice a bit of difference

ShopMonkey
12-22-2016, 07:28 AM
all I know is I want in on the demo/promo video. I LOVE the bitch, I'm a surgeon with that thing.
guess that means i'll have to build you a hyena edition

ShopMonkey
12-22-2016, 07:59 AM
for those adamant about hunting for big foot I give you Randy Wakeman of chuckhawks.com. Great article about the snake oil of the shotgun world - the lengthened forcing cone
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_forcing_cone_length.htm

CaptBeach
12-22-2016, 08:05 AM
After holding, fonding and firing a MagPul stocked 870 last night I will never own a pistol gripped shotgun again. HOME RUN...

Hammer27
12-22-2016, 08:10 AM
My big thing is a good two point sling attachment system and a good light attachment system

EEE
12-22-2016, 08:14 AM
870P parts - metal trigger guard, stronger extractor etc. polished chamber, bolt and action rod slick coating. 18" barrel with chokes (don't believe anyone has this). +2 mag tube. Expanded loading port. Ghost rings that can cowitness with a red dot. Larger safety and follower with a nipple so you can feel it and see it. Furniture can be left to the users preference.

Damn that's a lot of customization.

foxmeadow
12-22-2016, 08:36 AM
i've done a lot of research and playing around with this and cannot find a single reason to lengthen the forcing cone. Why because its only function is to help mitigate felt recoil. by any kinetic test its an avg of ~3%. Now factor in the cost to perform this work. I would charge about 300-400 depending on barrel length and manufacturer to backbore, polish and refinish. do you really feel its plausible to spend 3-400 to dump 3% of felt recoil? Ive shot both shotguns with and without this work done and quite honestly, I don't notice a bit of difference
Several years ago I became curious about the forcing cone issue and decided to find out for myself. I had three shotguns, a Rem. 1100 with a 21" barrel, a Wingmaster cut down to 18-1/2" and an 870 Express with a 26" barrel with an IC choke tube. I rented a forcing cone reamer from www.4-dproducts.com and set to work.

First patterning all three with Remington, Federal, and Winchester Low recoil 00B at 15 yards, 5 rds. each, I recorded the results and then cut the forcing cones. Doing so without causing chatter was a bitch, but eventually it was finished, then honed out witha special Flex-hone available from 4-d Products.

Retesting with the same ammo, at the same range showed me a 20- 30% reduction in overall spread depending on the gun. Seems that it worked for me.

If I had to do it over, I would not bother. It seemed to me that I was trying to turn shotguns into rifles. Let them be what they are and use them within their particular niche..

Greg Nichols
12-22-2016, 08:40 AM
As far as what I'd like to see in a pump shotty, the one pictured is pretty much on point. I can't think of anything I'd change on it.

Gabriel Suarez
12-22-2016, 08:50 AM
I will say this. We must not take an egalitarian approach to the shotgun. The police world did this when they accepted the frail into their ranks. A foolish step in my view. The shotgun is analogous to the War Hammer or the Battle Axe of the past battlefield. One did not grab a slightly built 5 foot zero girl and hand her a battle Axe, expecting her to wield it with the power of Charles Martel. She would be given a different weapon...one more suited to her real capability and not what she wanted to be, or thought she was entitled to be. But a warrrior of normal strength would have been expected to know how to use a pike, swing a sword, pull a bow AND be able to cleave a head with a battle axe. You can't make the battle axe into a pike, nor into a bow...nor should we try to do so.

TODAY in 2017, ammunition is not the same as it was when Cooper and Vang stuck their feet in the concrete on shotguns. It is my learned opinion that a clean and polished cylinder bore barrel, perhaps with a muzzle brake system (which will attenuate recoil far more than any interior barrel treatments) is best and that the felt recoil as well as performance down range can be handled with ammunition selection.

At the Instructor Class last month, Eric Tull (a new SI Staffer incidentally) shot a ridiculously tight pattern with a barrel as described. How? By using good ammo. Had he popped in Tula ammo, I suspect he would have been missing altogether at 20 yards. As well, we seem to, as an industry, consider that ammo for killing humans is of great importance today and the various reduced recoil ammo will mitigate felt recoil considerably. Gerald, our man in Africa was using the usually soft shooting 1301 with the ammo I used to carry back in the day and it was quite noticeable that it RECOILED HARD. Again...if recoil is an issue, change the ammo.

So while the chokemasters and forcing cone guys will say one thing, designing a shotgun system in 2017 does not need to rely on the needs of shotguns in 1997. Times and ammo technology has changed.

tfullerpipes
12-22-2016, 09:00 AM
Regarding increased capacity, should we consider a definite path between either an extended tube or a tube extension? Specifically, in the first image provided by Gabe, I believe this is Remington's newer extended tube which requires a very specific barrel with the barrel/tube ring located closer to the muzzle. Whereas in the next image provided by Jon Payne, we see the more common tube extension with a barrel/tube ring in the original location, closer to the fore end.

Minor detail, but may be worth discussing since people have opinions on exactly how much the capacity should be increased.

Dorkface
12-22-2016, 09:05 AM
Hi viz follower is "supposed" to let you know its empty when you see the bright green or orange--BUT-- it means you have to flip it over to look "why is my gun not shooting". A better reason is they tend to be slippery and longer so they don't get snagged like the old metal cup version.

The slotted lifter is in case you short stroke and a round gets on the lifter while the gun is locked. That "LOCKS UP" the gun and requires disassembly of the gun. The idea is with a slot you can use a key or knife blade etc to push the shell back into the magazine.

The thing is both are cheap things that make buyers feel like they got a cool custom gun-like shinny hubcaps on a beater car. Will you ever need them probably not but if you ever do, youll cuss for a week everybody that you didn't add them.

Thanks dude.


After holding, fonding and firing a MagPul stocked 870 last night I will never own a pistol gripped shotgun again. HOME RUN...
I wish I liked them... :cry:

Gabriel Suarez
12-22-2016, 09:14 AM
THIS IS A SHOTGUN MEANT FOR KILLING BAD GUYS

50873

THIS IS A SHOTGUN DESIGNED FOR PLAYING BULLET GOLF - WE WILL NOT BE MAKING GOLF GUNS

50874

CaptBeach
12-22-2016, 09:46 AM
Dork face,

I hate them too...ugly as homemade sin...but I got past cosmetics and onto function...it fits, its light, its fast to the shoulder, the pistol grip is at the right angle...it works...period.

HillCitySheepdog
12-22-2016, 09:47 AM
TODAY in 2017, ammunition is not the same as it was when Cooper and Vang stuck their feet in the concrete on shotguns. It is my learned opinion that a clean and polished cylinder bore barrel, perhaps with a muzzle brake system (which will attenuate recoil far more than any interior barrel treatments) is best and that the felt recoil as well as performance down range can be handled with ammunition selection.

Spot on!

Feed it some Federal LE132 or LE133 and let her rip. I've put pellets on a man size target at 100yds with LE133 pretty predictably. Holds a fist size pattern out to about 30yds with an open cylinder bore.

Dorkface
12-22-2016, 09:56 AM
Dork face,

I hate them too...ugly as homemade sin...but I got past cosmetics and onto function...it fits, its light, its fast to the shoulder, the pistol grip is at the right angle...it works...period.

Cosmetics don't bother me but the grip itsself, the angle of it or whatever, hurts my wrist for some reason. I am weird lol.

Greg Nichols
12-22-2016, 10:07 AM
Cosmetics don't bother me but the grip itsself, the angle of it or whatever, hurts my wrist for some reason. I am weird lol.

You gotta learn to switch off so you're not getting repetitive motion injury

Gabriel Suarez
12-22-2016, 10:11 AM
I will also tell you that many of the internal barrel treatments were invented simply because there were no external additions available back then (breechers, muzzle brakes, etc.) and the desire was to "keep the weapon looking stock" so the Elmer Fudds would not blanche at the sight of you unlimbering the tacticalbeast at the next church BBQ. That was the era of polished blue and wood, and not what the majority of people are interested in today.

Had much of what is available now been available then, I suspect companies like Vang would never have gone into business.

I will also point out my perspective on patterns which goes totally against the commonly held idea in the industry that a super tight pattern is desirable. Unlike most of these shotgun pundits I have actually killed armed criminals with a Remington 870 and a tight fist sized pattern is NOT WHAT WE WANT.

HillCitySheepdog
12-22-2016, 10:31 AM
Gabe,

I defer to your greater experience. Can you enlighten me on why a tight pattern would not be desirable?

Gabriel Suarez
12-22-2016, 10:39 AM
Chokes, Comps, And The Elusive Tight Pattern (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/02/chokes-comps-and-the-elusive-tight-pattern.html) Monday, February 29, 2016 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/02/chokes-comps-and-the-elusive-tight-pattern.html) http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01a3fd4087b6970b-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01a3fd4087b6970b-popup)

I think we often fall into the ALL OR NOTHING mentality with this. For example, "Your shotgun either puts all pellets into a coffee cup at 25 yards, or it is an alley broom.". That is a mistake in my opinion. Just like sights or no sights, moving or stationary, there are degrees.

A shotgun...for me is a weapon ostensibly intended to kill human adversaries intending to do likewise to me or mine. I don't play gun games. Nothing wrong with them, but its just not my thing.

Much of the shotgun lore today comes from the efforts of Jeff Cooper and Gunsite. Cooper was first and foremost a rifleman. And in my opinion, he looked at every small arm from that perspective. Even the entire Modern Technique curriculum is basically an effort to run the pistol like a rifle. When Cooper and his people began looking at the shotgun, they took the same perspective.

Shots at Cooper's shotgun class (which I attended with my duty SGN of the day in 1992) were focused on extending the impact of the shotgun as far as possible. Interesting to note that we did shoot clay birds in the rifle class, but not in the shotgun class.

Just as guns get modified to fit a shooting match, so did guns there get modified to do well in that class. On came the ghost rings for those 150 yard slug shots, the side saddles and buttcuffs for those shoot-one-load-one drills, and slug-select drills, and the choked barrels to keep the scores up there. Eventually, just as most others things gun gurus write about, it becomes almost a religion to his followers.

A tight choked Modern Technique shotgun will do very well at gun school shooting problems. But at the price of losing the close range capability of the weapon.

I worked in a very densely populated area in SoCal, and got into a bunch of gunfights. Many of those were with a shotgun. Let me tell you of some of what I saw.

Shotgun Gunfight #1 - Bad guy shooting people on a beach at 0300 HRS. Shot fired by me at 15 yards in low light (moonlight). Bad guy hit with 10 of 12 pellets. DRT.

Shotgun Gunfight #2 - Bad guy robbing a Store. Bad guy running and shooting at me - shot at 3 yards. Spread of impact bypassed his ballistic vest. DRT. Low light - parking lot lights.

Shotgun Gunfight #3 - Running gunfight in parking lot (actually LAPD's Parker Center's Parking lot ...but that is another story). Bad guy running away shooting Glock 21 at me. Two shots fired...one hit him with partial pattern, on the run, in extreme low light. Second shot dropped him. Distance was 10 yards.

Note - The natural spread of the pattern is what allowed the hits on those bad guys due to the low light, fluidly changing situation, the rapidly moving fight, and the incoming shots. The circumstances precluded anything but a "mount the shotgun and shoot him NOW!" method.

The shotguns used here were all off-the-rack Remington 870s with standard 4 shot magazines, wood stocks and cylinder bores. Ammo was Winchester OO Buck 12 pellet magnum (no reduced recoil loads in those days). So that is my frame of reference about what a shotgun needs. I think its a mistake to try to turn it into something it is not.

What will serve you best is a naturally expanding pattern that allows you to hit under circumstances where you would miss with either a single projectile weapon, or a shot pattern modified to act as a single projectile. Accept the shotgun for what it and let your tactics make it as applicable to a varied number of situations rather than attempting to turn it into a rifle.

Gabriel Suarez
12-22-2016, 10:40 AM
What we want: Predictable and uniform spread of the pattern.

Jeromy Hasenkamp
12-22-2016, 10:58 AM
As short as possible(non-nfa) with maximum capacity. Shotgun for close in work,entry etc.

I have tone agree with DorkFace. I like the Magpul stock but when I was running my entry shotgun, it wasn't short enough when wearing my body armor. I know this is for the masses who might not be wearing body armor but if a possibility, then recommend the Mesa Tactical with Magpul stock newer stock, SLE?

The Mesa tactical would allow for use of the new Crimson Trace LinQ as well. Solves some of thelight activation issues with the shotgun.

A left handed safety adaptor. There are some but they are plastic and are not extended. That's a must if running the Magpul stock for lefties.

Rail for Red Dots and Rifle sights. No Ghostrings...they suck in low light.

Greg Nichols
12-22-2016, 11:42 AM
Basically the shotty is the king of the pistol fight.

EDELWEISS
12-22-2016, 12:03 PM
Since the question of the mag tube came up, Id want the standard (sporting) length, NOT for any Fudd reason; but because it makes SBSing possible. I have had ZERO issues with quality mag extensions. Mag extensions also give options of size (1,2,etc) and barrel lengths 18,20,etc). There simply are just more standard length mag barrels than the new fixed extended models.

It seems silly to me to build a "WT Perfect Shotgun" and not have the ability to SBS it at some point. With the standard length mag tube barrel, a 12 or 14 inch barrel is possible. BTW 14" may well be the "perfect" length for a fighting shotgun.




******* if it matters, using a standard length mag tube length barrel model also allows use of a fully rifled slug barrel. Personally I'm not a huge fan; but I can see some use for behind the iron curtain zones that don't permit rifles for hunting. Just like when we hunt with our ARs, being able to hunt meat with out WT shotgun seems prudent.

Gabriel Suarez
12-22-2016, 12:19 PM
Whether you decide to SBS something or not is not going to decide my product because we will not be doing anything NFA. SBS'ing a shotgun is easily done by replacing the barrel and putting on a magazine cap so not something I am going to get my nosehairs tied up about.

They WILL have magazine extensions, and they will be these - I think Edelweiss will immediately see the merit of this one over the bullet golf extensions.

I will say it again...our battle axes are for splitting skulls in half.

https://img.rsrgroup.com/pimages/REM19420_1.jpg


Since the question of the mag tube came up, Id want the standard (sporting) length, NOT for any Fudd reason; but because it makes SBSing possible. I have had ZERO issues with quality mag extensions. Mag extensions also give options of size (1,2,etc) and barrel lengths 18,20,etc). There simply are just more standard length mag barrels than the new fixed extended models.

It seems silly to me to build a "WT Perfect Shotgun" and not have the ability to SBS it at some point. With the standard length mag tube barrel, a 12 or 14 inch barrel is possible. BTW 14" may well be the "perfect" length for a fighting shotgun.




******* if it matters, using a standard length mag tube length barrel model also allows use of a fully rifled slug barrel. Personally I'm not a huge fan; but I can see some use for behind the iron curtain zones that don't permit rifles for hunting. Just like when we hunt with our ARs, being able to hunt meat with out WT shotgun seems prudent.

coastalcop
12-22-2016, 12:28 PM
wouldnt mind seeing a +! for my SBS, there are several available, but some seem to have follower weaknesses.

If we were addressing weaknesses in the 870 design, a more robust stock attachment would be high on my list ( dont know if magpul does this, havent tried their stock yet) as the long bolt is prone to bending under heavy use (I have three on my desk right now from cop guns that we fell on equipment got dropped on))

a shorter bolt would reduce the leverage to the threaded portion of the receiver, and a tight fit of the stock would minimize twist at the receiver.

spyderman2k4
12-22-2016, 01:49 PM
I'd love to see a Vang Comp follower and dome safety on it. A couple excellent and fairly inexpensive upgrades that make a huge difference. Also, I love the Magpul stock.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

EDELWEISS
12-22-2016, 01:53 PM
BUILD IT! Boss I see the merits already. I love the Battle Axe.

ShopMonkey
12-22-2016, 02:19 PM
I'd love to see a Vang Comp follower and dome safety on it. A couple excellent and fairly inexpensive upgrades that make a huge difference. Also, I love the Magpul stock.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

i will not say never but, no, i will not be putting Hans' product on ours

Gabriel Suarez
12-22-2016, 02:21 PM
I'd love to see a Vang Comp follower and dome safety on it. A couple excellent and fairly inexpensive upgrades that make a huge difference. Also, I love the Magpul stock.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Oh...I have something better than Vang's stuff in mind for this.

Gabriel Suarez
12-22-2016, 02:22 PM
A dozen Remington 870s en route to us now.

spyderman2k4
12-22-2016, 02:31 PM
Oh...I have something better than Vang's stuff in mind for this.
Awesome. Regardless, the factory stuff leaves a lot to be desired, so those are great areas to look at.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

ShopMonkey
12-22-2016, 03:22 PM
Several years ago I became curious about the forcing cone issue and decided to find out for myself. I had three shotguns, a Rem. 1100 with a 21" barrel, a Wingmaster cut down to 18-1/2" and an 870 Express with a 26" barrel with an IC choke tube. I rented a forcing cone reamer from www.4-dproducts.com and set to work.

First patterning all three with Remington, Federal, and Winchester Low recoil 00B at 15 yards, 5 rds. each, I recorded the results and then cut the forcing cones. Doing so without causing chatter was a bitch, but eventually it was finished, then honed out witha special Flex-hone available from 4-d Products.

Retesting with the same ammo, at the same range showed me a 20- 30% reduction in overall spread depending on the gun. Seems that it worked for me.

If I had to do it over, I would not bother. It seemed to me that I was trying to turn shotguns into rifles. Let them be what they are and use them within their particular niche..

That is the point of this, we are not looking to tighten groups, the purpose of this is to build a shotgun that is still capable of being a shotgun,this is why we have rifles. What we are looking for is a consistent spread pattern, which these days are capable through training and ammunition, along with some minor modification. We are attempting to create a shotgun from an existing platform that is better if not the best at its intended purpose, which is being a combative shotgun.

Gabriel Suarez
12-22-2016, 04:01 PM
In other words...make the best battle axe or war hammer that is still...a battle axe or a war hammer. A battle axe is not a spear...or a sword...and certainly not a crossbow. A battle axe has properties and demands characteristics from those who would wield it. A battle axe smashes and crushes...it requires a reckless violence that the surgical bow does not. It is not a weapon for pussies...or snowflakes that read Ayoob's fairy tales. If the Vikings were still around today, they may well gravitate toward the shotgun as it is so analogous with the axe.

America, since the first API260 (Gunsite's shotgun class) has been attempting to turn the battle axe into a rapier.

Let that not be said of us.

Hail The Axe!!!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/86/a7/c6/86a7c6dfa10c264b68b8ded8548f4607.jpg

coastalcop
12-22-2016, 04:33 PM
Me " let me grab my axe first" .........them " oh, are you in a band?" .... me "No"

moses1moses11
12-22-2016, 04:42 PM
My $.02, I want a magazine or a stripper clip or other auto loading device for the 870. I have seen a lot of gun game devices and box mags that don't feed into the under barrel mag, etc.
An efficient and elegant way to store and feed 4+ shells in the mag immediately would be nice. And if it was a bolt on device that would be even better.

JVSIII
12-22-2016, 06:25 PM
I've had good luck with the +1 Wilson/scattergun tech extensions. I'm of a different opinion on shotgun sights, I much prefer the rifle type sights. It's what I use on my 1100. I find that it's both faster and more accurate than a ghost ring, for me anyway. I just run the bead over the blade similar to a vent rib sight for fast, close buckshot. A place for an RMR seems like a no brainier but I have no experience running one on a shotgun with either type of sights, is it even possible to co-witness with what's available today? I know I've seen mrds on mounts soldered to barrels, but again, no experience. Burris makes that speedbead mount that fits between the stock and receiver could be an interesting concept of it works or can be made to work, with a good Rds anyway.

Definitely needs the longer follower, choke tubes I can take or leave. I have full stocks with pistol grips on most of my shotguns, gives me better control during manipulation, but I've not used that Magpul, but it looks like a good design to accomplish the same without the PG hanging down to get caught on stuff. Any stock should be adjustable for LOP, not necessarily like an AR collapsible, but to fit an individual shooters preference. Just my $.02

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

45Smashemflat
12-22-2016, 07:14 PM
You are on the right track, to me. Keep it simple and "what it is." I have a 18.5" 870, Magpul furniture, extended mag to match the barrel, factory. I mounted a light on the magpul fore end. I added a big dot tritium front sight. Ghost rings and blade sights have merit, but I did not feel the juice was worth the squeeze. I'm not shooting slugs, I'm pleased with the aiming and precision I get with the big dot and buck.

I will say, watch the length of pull adjustment you have on the mag pul. I purposely left out the spacers on mine, as it seemed faster mounting on dry practice. BUT, the thumb becomes quite a nose whacker. Your mileage may vary.

I'm not running a sling here, as this is a dedicated house gun. But, options are key.

HillCitySheepdog
12-22-2016, 07:41 PM
As a huge fan of the scatter gun I am looking forward to seeing what you do with it, Gabe.

Dorkface
12-22-2016, 10:44 PM
I was doing some investigating into the slotted lifter and looking at my 870. I discovered that my 870 has the flex tab system and it seemingly negates the need for a slotted lifter and was designed to allow the shooter to clear a shell that wasn't fully loaded into the tube magazine by running the pump.

Gabriel Suarez
12-23-2016, 05:20 AM
All new 870 have that feature.

Gabriel Suarez
12-23-2016, 05:45 AM
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The Flex Tab allows the carrier to flex enough to still allow you to pump the action and clear the problem. You can identify a gun with the Flex-Tab by looking at the shell lifter on the bottom of the receiver. A gun with the Flex-Tab will have a "U" shaped cut in the bottom of the lifter.



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HillCitySheepdog
12-23-2016, 06:23 AM
Can that be retro fit into older 870s, Gabe, or are we left with the slotted lifter?

jlwilliams
12-23-2016, 06:33 AM
12g and 410, please.

410... that's funny. Good one.

Gabriel Suarez
12-23-2016, 06:44 AM
Can that be retro fit into older 870s, Gabe, or are we left with the slotted lifter?

It can, but at some point one may betterm off getting a new 870 than doing a boatload of retro-fits.

HillCitySheepdog
12-23-2016, 07:18 AM
I went back and looked at my 870 which was mid-80s production and it has the u-shaped notch in the lifter so it should already be equipped with the flexitab system. That's good information to know.

45Smashemflat
12-23-2016, 09:25 AM
Going to need to look at mine now, it's relatively new. (Less than 10 yrs old)

Hey, is it worth it to upgrade from Express trigger group to Police? I did upgrade the mag spring and high viz follower.

Dorkface
12-23-2016, 09:30 AM
From what I have read Remington started the flexitab back in the 80 on police models but then started doing it for all of them. The flex system has a different lifter, bolt and bolt plate that can be retro fit but costs a lot. Like Gabe said its usually a better option to buy a new gun.

jlwilliams
12-23-2016, 09:43 AM
When I was shopping for a shotgun a few years ago, it became clear that an 870 police magnum was a better deal than an express plus upgrades.

Gabriel Suarez
12-23-2016, 09:45 AM
Oh...and yeah...just like we don't accept work on slides that are worn out or frames that are worn out, we aren't doing this to turn some relic someone has sitting in a closet into a modern weapon.

JVSIII
12-23-2016, 09:46 AM
If I remember correctly, you have to replace the entire trigger housing assembly, not just the lifter. There is a modification to the housing itself. But with the new U notch, a you can rack it with a shell on the lifter, most people can even do it from the shoulder.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

HillCitySheepdog
12-23-2016, 09:59 AM
Oh...and yeah...just like we don't accept work on slides that are worn out or frames that are worn out, we aren't doing this to turn some relic someone has sitting in a closet into a modern weapon.

It's like putting a paint job on a hooptie!

madmike
12-23-2016, 11:45 AM
Ive carried an 870 for many years.Mine has the Black snythetic shortened but stock and Surefire light forend.I like the picture of Gabes Fighting shotgun for killing bad guys.What kind of compensator is that.Im thinking a collapsable stock would be good possibly even for my gun.I would like some kind of Duracoat on mine as its styill blue.The one thing I dont like on the newer 870 is the forend.Ive fired them and it just doesnt fell right.Just my opinion.What collapsable stock does everyone like.

Jcord
12-23-2016, 05:37 PM
50891This is my house gun. My 870 is for the truck. I have it with a 21 inch choke tube barrel and a bayonet mount.
I will eventually change out the stock.

45Smashemflat
12-23-2016, 06:11 PM
For a minute there, I thought that SxS was rechargeable or something. :)

coastalcop
12-23-2016, 06:14 PM
50891This is my house gun. My 870 is for the truck. I have it with a 21 inch choke tube barrel and a bayonet mount.
I will eventually change out the stock.

The Biden special ;)

Gabriel Suarez
12-23-2016, 07:16 PM
F*ck Biden
Piece of sh*t.

HillCitySheepdog
12-23-2016, 07:42 PM
F*ck Biden
Piece of sh*t.

Only 27 more days

Dorkface
12-26-2016, 04:51 PM
So I have been reading a lot about modifying shotguns in the last two days. Something that might be a consideration is to burnish the chamber and inside of the barrel as well as the inside of the magazine tube and extension in order to remove tooling marks and ridges. It would work harden as well as smooth out the peaks and valleys which in the mag tube should make the rounds load and cycle smoother and in theory it would do the same in the barrel and conceivably make the shotgun pattern more consistently as the shot and wad wouldn't be disrupted during travel down the barrel. If I had a lathe I would get an actual burnishing tool but it looks like the same effect can be done with a drill, light oil/wd40/some kind of cutting oil, dowel and 0000 steel wool and just take a little longer. After some parts come in I am going to try it on my 870 and see what happens.