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RobertGuy
12-17-2016, 09:27 PM
I'm very much interested in the Glock PDW concept, but...

I remember the caliber wars some years ago, and I remember these anecdotes:
"Vast majority of people (over 80%) shot with handguns survive."
"Handguns are weak compared to rifles and shotguns, and you want every edge you can get."

In addition, FBI protocol tests handgun ammunition at 10 feet, which makes me contemplate the handgun ammunition effectiveness at longer distances that a PDW can deliver.

What is the maximum effective distance of the PDW (measured by expansion and penetration through heavy clothing)?
What evidence is available to support the effective distance?
Where does the Glock PDW fit between handgun, rifle bullpup, 300 SBR?
Is the Glock PDW mainly just a house gun?
Why not a rifle bullpup or SBR where legal?

Or maybe I need to look at the PDW differently?

Thank you.

Gabriel Suarez
12-17-2016, 10:05 PM
I don't know man...I get tired of having to say the same things fifty freaking times like nobody ever reads a god damned thing I write.

Don't get a PDW...get a FAL in 308.

Mike Heckathorn
12-17-2016, 10:07 PM
For $99, you can answer all these questions for yourself!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dorkface
12-17-2016, 10:52 PM
If only there were a few videos that could explain this stuff... That were only put out with in the last couple of weeks...

Brent Yamamoto
12-17-2016, 11:07 PM
Mine in bold


I'm very much interested in the Glock PDW concept, but...

I remember the caliber wars some years ago, and I remember these anecdotes:
"Vast majority of people (over 80%) shot with handguns survive." And yet, what do we carry every day? The raison d'etre of the handgun is not the power it delivers, but it's capability to actually be carried almost everywhere.

"Handguns are weak compared to rifles and shotguns, and you want every edge you can get." And? Two very powerful words come to mind..."So what?" Can you carry a 308 with you to your work? Can you have it at the ready at your desk? Can you carry your 12 gauge to the mall? More important, WILL you? The handgun is so portable you can have it with you almost 100% of the time. The PDW can be carried anywhere that you can carry a laptop bag.

In addition, FBI protocol tests handgun ammunition at 10 feet, which makes me contemplate the handgun ammunition effectiveness at longer distances that a PDW can deliver. I don't know. This shot (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/06/austin-cop-sure-shot-stopped-crazed-gunman.html) at over 100 yards seemed to work out well.

What is the maximum effective distance of the PDW (measured by expansion and penetration through heavy clothing)? I echo Mike, for $99 you can test this yourself. I've made standing shots with a pistol out to 300 yards. I can do that more easily and more quickly with a PDW. To date, no one has volunteered to let me test the bullet's effectiveness at that range. Honestly these kind of questions perplex me. Sure, I'm interested in how well the bullet performs on meat...but before the bullet has the chance to perform, I have to be able to hit the damn target. I think people spend way too much time propeller heading these things rather than on simply buying good equipment and then maximizing their own capabilities.

What evidence is available to support the effective distance? Share your test online.

Where does the Glock PDW fit between handgun, rifle bullpup, 300 SBR? I have all of these. I use all of these. Each have their role and each specializes in that role. Besides my pistol, guess which I have with me the most.

Is the Glock PDW mainly just a house gun? No, though it is perhaps the perfect house gun. It also makes an excellent vehicle gun, and an excellent carry-everywhere gun.

Why not a rifle bullpup or SBR where legal? Why not indeed? Let's do a test...Buy a large back pack and then carry a rifle for a week. Carry a bullpup for a week. Carry an AR pistol for a week. Buy a laptop case and carry a PDW for a week. Share your findings.

Or maybe I need to look at the PDW differently? I think so


Context. Always context. It would be better to have a whole fire team with us constantly, but that's not very realistic is it?

I drive a truck. Why not a Hummer? Or an Audi? Or a Harley Soft tail? Which one is best? None of them are because they all do different things. They are the best at DIFFERENT things.

Many of us can't own 8 different vehicles...but most of us can own a few different guns. The great beauty of the PDW is that not only is it functional, it's also economical. It is light, compact, sturdy, and capable...all for $100.

The PDW is not better than a bull pup or a 300 SBR...it is DIFFERENT. It doesn't have the same range or power, but it is very easy to carry, and that makes it more likely you will have it at hand.

Many of us here have spent a great deal of time, effort and money testing these products. I've tested so many different platforms, carried so many different ways, and I can tell you that the PDW is the easy button. You can spend a few thousand and test things for yourself before you come to the same solution. I teach for SI, but I don't make a penny on sales for the PDW kits...yet I practically BEG people to buy the damn things because of the capability it will give you.

What distance are you comfortable shooting your Glock? Turn it into a PDW and I can almost guarantee that you can shoot twice as far at a faster rate.

EDELWEISS
12-18-2016, 03:37 AM
Robert, Im guessing youve gotten a different kind of response than you expected. Its not because of your question; but I think youre lack of understanding what youre asking. Perhaps first we should look at what a PDW is, then what a PDWs role is for a civilian.

FIRST a PDW is a concept weapon that is more than a handgun but less than a rifle. It is more portable than a rifle and easy to be carried (so it WILL be carried). Just as the full length rifles of WW1 gave way to shorter rifles of WW2 and then to less powerful cartridges which gave us assault rifles, they also gave us a little gem, the M1 Carbine which arguably may have been the first PDW except that descriptor didnt exist. At that same time Stocked Pistols made another surge (theyve actually been around since the beginning of pistols). Stocked Pistols failed in a military role but only because rifles were available. Along that same time line "we" realized that a whole lot of troops didnt use their rifle to fight the enemy, they cooked, and typed, and handed out piles of gear, and drove trucks. For them a rifle was a large and heavy piece of equipment that generally found its way to being leaned against a tree or stacked in a rack while the real work was being done. That same rifle in the rack, or worse yet locked in an armory, is USELESS when the enemy attacks. Picture that thought when you find yourself in a Mall and your rifle is home in the safe...but wait you remembered to bring your PDW. No its not a rifle, yes it has limitations; but it also has the advantage of being there when you need it.

SECOND if you can carry a rifle DO IT! Youll have both my admiration and my concern, because short of a combat zone, even Id admit the need to carry a rifle is extreme. Conversely a pistol cartridge as you mention gives marginal performance compared to a rifle, so that where HITS and HIT PLACEMENT matters. Just as a rifle is difficult to carry when compared to the ease of carrying a pistol, a PDW does add a bit more inconvenience. You wont be "wearing" a PDW like you wear a pistol in a holster (well you could but thats another issue); but you can accessorize with a PDW. A PDW (especially a Glock/Endo/Shockwave PDW), can be carried in a SMALL bag, the kind of bag routinely carried, whether its a Lap Top / Messenger bag or a small book bag. Id love to be able to carry a M4; but even when split in two parts, it still requires a LARGE bag (ask me how I know?). IF youre willing to go the NFA route and carry a SBR you can reduce the package some; but not quite to the Glock PDW size and weight--Ive tied. I probably have more SMGs/PDWs/PCCs than most other WTers--BECAUSE I believe in the concept, even more so for civilians.

THIRD since power seems an issue for you, theres nothing saying you cant move from 9mm to 357SIG or even 10mm. The Endo/Shockwave will work on G20s just like it works on G17s. As to 9mm, well I would suggest that at typical PDW ranges (Ill let you determine that-but certainly 100m+), then 9mm is a fine cartridge for changing human behavior. Feel free to opt for 357SIG or 10mm. My "Out West" gun is a RMRd G35 in 357SIG. I routinely travel in a very urban AO, and I feel fine with 9mm--especially in 21st century loadings.

FOUTH and finally, what the Glock PDW does is give you more points of contact to steady the weapon as with a rifle EXCEPT you dont brace the Shockwave against your shoulder, you rest it against your cheek and arm. Now maybe youre an Olympic class pistol shooter, maybe you were one of the President's 100 with a pistol, maybe you can make routine head shots at 50+meters on the move with a G26 from your weak hand OR maybe you carry a 8" S&W 500mag with a scope, IDK--what I do know, is a PDW works for me.

BEST of LUCK with your decision

CaptBeach
12-18-2016, 07:01 AM
Robertguy...what is your EDC and do you EDC it? As in carry it...everyday, everywhere you go?

Irons or RMR or other RDS optic? I can make repeatable (whole magazine) shots on steel or cement blocks (a favorite, lots of dust and peices flying) with irons with my G34, have not taken it out past as that's about my limit with irons prior to RMR'ing it and have not been to the rifle range yet. I can make the same shots on 12" steel at 200 with an RMR V3 G19 from the holster, much to the dismay of some AR shooters who were hit and missing it from a bench.

I do not own a Glock PDW. Probably wont unless I happen upon a deal on one, or if Trump rolls SBR's out of the NFA. My "PDW" is an AR15 pistol 10.5" Comp ML2 sighted, LAW folding, Shockwaved gun in 5.56mm, car legal under my CCW.

I think you might have an epiphany about power, range and utility if you thought less about the science of it and shot long more. I would never ever volunteer to take a Corbon 115 grain DPX at any range...100-200-300+, would you?

What SI or other pistol courses have you taken?

Out of curiousity, what is the longest shot you KNOW you can make with your EDC on demand?

Go out, find a rifle range with steel and ring some.

jlwilliams
12-18-2016, 09:11 AM
It's true enough that pistol rounds lack in comparison to rifle rounds, but it's a mistake to think you will have more than a pistol on you unless you are hunting. That brings us to the whole point of the Endo/shockwave pdw, and in fact the point of putting a red dot sight on a pistol. You need whatever edge you can get to make those pistol rounds effective. As a civilian the CONUS, a pistol is what you can carry. A red dot sight on your blaster increases hit probability, and gives you a substantial likelihood that you will put it where it counts. Likewise, the brace gives you more points of contact so you can use the pistol more like a carbine.

Maybe the Glock pdw isn't for you. Your call not mine and I'm not interested in selling you on the concept. What I do want to hammer on is that I think it's a mistake for civilians to look at anything other than a handgun as their "primary" firearm. Lots of guys who spent time in the service take the idea that the rifle is primary and handgun secondary with them when they discharge from the service. To paraphrase the old line "You aren't in The Army now!" Rifles are great combat weapons, but in the civilian world a handgun is what you have on hand. I'm not saying don't have and be good with a rifle. I am saying get used to the idea that you can't carry a rifle, so leverage the effectiveness of the humble handgun.

One last point about the lowly 9mm round. In the last hundred years it has killed more men than smallpox. Most of them with fmj, which any internet expert can tell you is "useless." If you prefer the 357Sig or the .40 or the 10mm, cool. Just take the whole thing with a grain of salt. Yes, handgun wounds are often survivable and often fought through, which brings this diatribe full circle... use the afore mentioned leverage to make good hits.

Brent Yamamoto
12-18-2016, 09:40 AM
Against two legged targets, how hard a bullet hits isn't that interesting to me. Yes, I do my research. I listen to what works for others, I look at ammo testing videos, etc. I then pick a few different rounds that appear to work "best".

But then I go out and see how it shoots FOR ME. I look for what is the right balance of accuracy, recoil, consistency, etc. I then carry the round that I shoot best and don't worry too much about what the bullet is going to do.

My job is to send that bullet on the most accurate path I possibly can. Once it has left the muzzle, it either does it's job or it doesn't. My only focus is on doing my job correctly.

That's where the PDW comes in. For me it's not about choosing a round that's devastating, it's about choosing a platform that will help me do my part of the job.

That said, my PDW is in 357 Sig. Not for "more power", at least not per se. I choose that round because it shoots flatter for a longer distance, making it easier to hit at longer range. It has more speed down range compared to 9mm, thus more power, but honestly I don't really care about that. Bullets will do what they do, my job is just to make the hit.

Gabriel Suarez
12-18-2016, 09:49 AM
I think somebody has been suggesting the face is the new center of mass too for a few days now...not sure though...

Jon Payne
12-18-2016, 10:00 AM
It kind of rings a bell. Perhaps I should Google it?
I think somebody has been suggesting the face is the new center of mass too for a few days now...not sure though...

Dorkface
12-18-2016, 10:13 AM
Its also worth considering that the 80% number (which I think is in the 90%'s these days) is for people hit with a single round only in COM. So the bad guys need to be shot multiple times or in the face. Preferably multiple times in the face.

CaptBeach
12-18-2016, 11:14 AM
I think somebody has been suggesting the face is the new center of mass too for a few days now...not sure though...

Always a thorn in peoples side aren't you...slaying dragons, skinning bagged cats then loosening them upon a cowering world soon to be discounted, soon ridiculed, soon thereafter accepted. Then later as the gospel...yes headshots are the new COM.

RobertGuy
12-18-2016, 12:08 PM
I'm on this thread because the Glock PDW is something I want to like, and just wanted to get some things cleared up, not just jump on it.

I have watched Gabe's videos making the campaign for the PDW; maybe I was missing something from the video, or maybe the videos were missing something, hence my follow up questions. I suspect there will be more videos in the future that may answer my questions.

A few points from the thread:

"The PDW is not better than a bull pup or a 300 SBR...it is DIFFERENT."

That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out...the difference and where it fits in. The PDW between the seat and the console is a great example of a difference.


"It is light, compact, sturdy, and capable...all for $100."

Cost isn't my priority, but the other points are important.


"It doesn't have the same range or power, but it is very easy to carry, and that makes it more likely you will have it at hand."

I carry a Glock appendix carry, have it on hand, and a lot quicker than getting the PDW out of the bag. This is not an argument against carrying a handgun. It is more about if I'm going to carry a backpack, and I'm going to put something more powerful in it, what is it going to be? A M4 pistol? SBR? Bullpup? Or the Glock PDW?


"What distance are you comfortable shooting your Glock? Turn it into a PDW and I can almost guarantee that you can shoot twice as far at a faster rate."

Why not have a SBR/bullpup/M4 pistol, and have more power with rifle ammo? Or is it all about the PDW weight?


"Picture that thought when you find yourself in a Mall and your rifle is home in the safe...but wait you remembered to bring your PDW. No its not a rifle, yes it has limitations; but it also has the advantage of being there when you need it."

Why not carry a SBR/bullpup/M4 pistol in the bag instead?


"A PDW (especially a Glock/Endo/Shockwave PDW), can be carried in a SMALL bag, the kind of bag routinely carried, whether its a Lap Top / Messenger bag or a small book bag. Id love to be able to carry a M4; but even when split in two parts, it still requires a LARGE bag"

That's exactly what I'd like to know more about.


"If youre willing to go the NFA route and carry a SBR you can reduce the package some; but not quite to the Glock PDW size and weight"

This last sentence is the one I am going to focus on, and I think is the answer to part of my question. The remaining is learning what the effective range is of the handgun caliber, and not over estimate the capability (under gunned).

The shooting I hear about in my area are both with handguns, and increasingly with rifles. Something in me is telling me not to show up at a rifle gunfight with a handgun PDW, if I can take a "rifle". Unless I don't desire to take a M4 pistol, SBR, bullpup with me, and left at home, and the PDW makes it easy and something I'll take with me.

Thank you.

Brent Yamamoto
12-18-2016, 01:17 PM
Mine in bold...




"The PDW is not better than a bull pup or a 300 SBR...it is DIFFERENT."

That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out...the difference and where it fits in. The PDW between the seat and the console is a great example of a difference.

Firearms are tools, and much like tools there are a lot of variations for the same job. Imagine nuts and bolts...if I know it's a big job, I want power tools. If power tools are too much, or it's a job in the field without power, then I want a socket set. Or perhaps the socket set is too much to carry, a couple of wrenches can do the job, albeit not as fast or with as much ease. Finally, if all I have at hand is a multitool, then that's what I'll use. The argument for the PDW is not an argument AGAINST the rifle, it's an argument for a bigger toolbox with more options you can pick from.

Just as I think every man needs a set of sockets in addition to a set of wrenches, I think every warrior needs a minimum set of firearm tools in their toolbox. I'm sure we all agree on an EDC pistol and some sort of assault rifle. I will go so far to say that I believe every warrior needs a Glock PDW. It is that useful and covers a niche that nothing else does. It is "more than a pistol but less than a rifle", in a much smaller, handier and lighter package than even an AR pistol. (And this is by no means an argument against the AR pistol either, as I believe that should be in the armory as well.)

Where does it fit? I could be facetious and say "everywhere". ;) But seriously, it just about does fit everywhere. It fits in places an AR pistol will not, whether that is a bag or a small space in your vehicle, office, where ever. You can even modify it to fit a G19 if you need an even smaller package.

I know your question is really "what is its role?" The role for the PDW is for all cases where you'd rather have a rifle, but can't carry one. We could add specific examples but I can't spell it out in principle any clearer than that.


"It is light, compact, sturdy, and capable...all for $100." Cost isn't my priority, but the other points are important.
The point isn't about cost, as in "it's cheap". The point is that it is so affordable why NOT have it in the armory? Many of us spend money on crap we don't need but will pinch pennies on solid equipment that really can give us an edge. It's pretty rare that the best solution is ALSO affordable. I see $100 as such a small investment in capability that honestly I don't know why a guy wouldn't purchase it just to try it for himself. It can always be sold later if it's not to one's liking.


"It doesn't have the same range or power, but it is very easy to carry, and that makes it more likely you will have it at hand."

I carry a Glock appendix carry, have it on hand, and a lot quicker than getting the PDW out of the bag. This is not an argument against carrying a handgun. It is more about if I'm going to carry a backpack, and I'm going to put something more powerful in it, what is it going to be? A M4 pistol? SBR? Bullpup? Or the Glock PDW?

My beginning assumption is that we all carry a pistol everywhere. The PDW is never an argument against carrying a pistol, it is for carrying in addition to a pistol. Yes, you can carry a compact rifle, and there ARE circumstances where you might actually do so. But those circumstances are few, and after doing so a few times you will grow tired of it. The point is to have additional capability in the most possible circumstances. You are a lot more likely to carry a PDW than a small rifle. This is why I invited you to try it for yourself.

As for speed...the pistol is what you carry every day, everywhere. It's what you will use for reactive fights (bad guys starting the fight on you), and if you carry nothing else, it's what you'll use for proactive fights (you see trouble unfolding and decide to engage it). The PDW in a bag is NOT for reactive fights. It is for proactive engagements when you have the time and space to access it. Another practical point...even if you carry a small rifle, the nature of it's size, shape and bulk will usually make it slower to access from whatever bag you're carrying.

"What distance are you comfortable shooting your Glock? Turn it into a PDW and I can almost guarantee that you can shoot twice as far at a faster rate."

Why not have a SBR/bullpup/M4 pistol, and have more power with rifle ammo? Or is it all about the PDW weight?
I'm repeating myself, but honestly I don't think you'll carry a small rifle with you. You should own an AR pistol anyway, and you should have a method of carrying it. You should have a PDW and a means to carry it as well. Carry both for a week.

There's no question that a small rifle gives you more power and range. The question is, will you actually carry it with you? A set of brass knuckles in your hand is better than the 338 Lapua you have in your safe.


"A PDW, can be carried in a SMALL bag, the kind of bag routinely carried, whether its a Lap Top / Messenger bag or a small book bag. Id love to be able to carry a M4; but even when split in two parts, it still requires a LARGE bag"

That's exactly what I'd like to know more about.
It's easier to carry the PDW, you can do so in a smaller bag. Not trying to be combative here, just trying to figure out what more you want to know.

"If youre willing to go the NFA route and carry a SBR you can reduce the package some; but not quite to the Glock PDW size and weight"
This last sentence is the one I am going to focus on, and I think is the answer to part of my question. The remaining is learning what the effective range is of the handgun caliber, and not over estimate the capability (under gunned).

You don't need to go the NFA route to get a small AR pistol. But even the smallest, lightest AR is going to be heavier, and more important, more bulky that the Glock PDW. Size matters. That also plays into the speed of deployment...lighter, smaller and handier gets it into play faster.

It's also not just about effective range of the bullets. It's also about how many bullets can you get on target and how quickly. You can do so more effectively with a PDW than a pistol (again, I'm assuming you're carrying both). I simply do not believe that most people are willing to pack around a rifle day in day out. But people can and do pack around the PDW, and that will give you more capability than the pistol alone.

I don't care how far the bullets are effective. If it's a distance issue, I care how far away I can HIT. At the range I've made hits with a pistol at 300 yards, so I know I could do so with a PDW. But hitting that distance in the real world is something different and depends on so many factors. Cover/concealment. Visibility. Back ground, how close are bystanders? Unless you're out on the praire with nothing but sagebrush for miles around (in which case you should have a rifle on you anyway), within the range most of us would be willing to engage AT ALL, in public, pistol bullets are going to do the job.

Unless I don't desire to take a M4 pistol, SBR, bullpup with me, and left at home, and the PDW makes it easy and something I'll take with me.
Honestly I think this answers your own question.

Scottman
12-18-2016, 02:09 PM
Irons or RMR or other RDS optic? I can make repeatable (whole magazine) shots on steel or cement blocks (a favorite, lots of dust and peices flying) with irons with my G34, have not taken it out past as that's about my limit with irons prior to RMR'ing it and have not been to the rifle range yet. I can make the same shots on 12" steel at 200 with an RMR V3 G19 from the holster, much to the dismay of some AR shooters who were hit and missing it from a bench.

What load? how much hold over? 25 yard zero? Any pictures?

did this load you selected for 200 yard shooting have the best accuracy at 100? got any pictures of targets at 100 with different loads?

What is your hit percentage on the 12" plate at 200?

Thank you!!

Scottman
12-18-2016, 02:16 PM
PDW's practical enough to carry around everyday small and light enough to do so

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13100702_10208981494596700_3053986706058277383_n.j pg?oh=f8e51f6e9b9da18945c2c4ce216bbd3f&oe=58AE5224

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/13041248_10208843764553535_1408549498947788981_o.j pg?oh=6a0e44f9f88897b20202f6fbdc447b95&oe=58B0DC3E

DutchV
12-18-2016, 03:54 PM
I would absolutely love to have a rifle with me every place I go, every day of the week. But outside of the car, or a hunting area, it doesn't work. Open carry in town makes you look like one of those inbreds with an SKS and a Tapco extended magazine. Even an AR pistol in a case isn't a lot better. Lots of people will notice, including otherwise friendly LEO's. Never mind the bulk and weight penalty when you're trying to get stuff done. But a Glock PDW in a gym bag is easy. A nylon bookbag is the modern briefcase. It's not too heavy to have around all the time. And nobody will give you a second look. That's where the PDW fits.

DogDoc
12-18-2016, 04:00 PM
I carry mine in a small laptop bag regularly.

Spiffy
12-18-2016, 04:48 PM
I think somebody has been suggesting the face is the new center of mass too for a few days now...not sure though...


The face new COM with a FAL 308.......that could be messy boss but very effective.

Scottman
12-18-2016, 04:53 PM
9x25 DILLON and 10mm will be too ;)

djk010468
12-18-2016, 11:24 PM
Not sure what those pics add to this thread. Maybe you should save them for your on line dating profile?:thinking:

Scottman
12-19-2016, 03:39 AM
It shows personal day to day use of a pdw

djk010468
12-19-2016, 05:59 AM
Really? You carry it behind your back in the bathroom. And a downward view of your shoes?

If you say so.

CR Williams
12-19-2016, 06:13 AM
It kind of rings a bell. Perhaps I should Google it?


I wouldn't be surprised if Google started posting trigger warnings and requests/ads for safe spaces whenever it listed results of a WT/SI subject search. :thumbsup::laughing::evil:

CR Williams
12-19-2016, 06:29 AM
"It doesn't have the same range or power, but it is very easy to carry, and that makes it more likely you will have it at hand."

I carry a Glock appendix carry, have it on hand, and a lot quicker than getting the PDW out of the bag. This is not an argument against carrying a handgun. It is more about if I'm going to carry a backpack, and I'm going to put something more powerful in it, what is it going to be? A M4 pistol? SBR? Bullpup? Or the Glock PDW? Because the other options are larger and heavier and less likely to be in reach because of that. Keep in mind also that you will have additional magazines, probably larger-capacity magazines and possibly other support gear in that bag as well. That adds to overall weight.


Why not have a SBR/bullpup/M4 pistol, and have more power with rifle ammo? Or is it all about the PDW weight?Weight and size both. Size can make it awkward to carry and manipulate. Yes, there is practice for that. But there is still a difference enough to matter.


"Picture that thought when you find yourself in a Mall and your rifle is home in the safe...but wait you remembered to bring your PDW. No its not a rifle, yes it has limitations; but it also has the advantage of being there when you need it."

"A PDW (especially a Glock/Endo/Shockwave PDW), can be carried in a SMALL bag, the kind of bag routinely carried, whether its a Lap Top / Messenger bag or a small book bag. Id love to be able to carry a M4; but even when split in two parts, it still requires a LARGE bag"

That's exactly what I'd like to know more about. Carrying the Glock PDW or the M4/SBR/SMG? I can put the Glock in a 14/15-inch bag. Can you do that with the M4/SBR/SMG?

"If youre willing to go the NFA route and carry a SBR you can reduce the package some; but not quite to the Glock PDW size and weight"Not enough of a reduction for most people.

This last sentence is the one I am going to focus on, and I think is the answer to part of my question. The remaining is learning what the effective range is of the handgun caliber, and not over estimate the capability (under gunned).

The shooting I hear about in my area are both with handguns, and increasingly with rifles. Something in me is telling me not to show up at a rifle gunfight with a handgun PDW, if I can take a "rifle". Unless I don't desire to take a M4 pistol, SBR, bullpup with me, and left at home, and the PDW makes it easy and something I'll take with me. Exactly. Besides that: The advantages of the rifle as used in most shootings in the US are actually fairly small. (Consider the average ranges they are used at, for one thing.) And the advantages of the rifle can be negated to a great extent by skill and clear thinking. There is a tendency in some circles to assign the rifle an overwhelming advantage in this cases that is simply not present. We know here that the rifle is not an automatic winner and never has been. We should respect what it can do, plan to as best we can act to reduce to remove its advantages, and execute that plan in the event we end up against one as well as we can at the time.

Mine in bold.

WinstonSmith
12-19-2016, 10:12 AM
Thought this was a warrior fitness thread?? :dunno:

Gabriel Suarez
12-19-2016, 10:20 AM
Since so many seem SEARCH AVERSE I will force feed them information.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dc9RjjEUGXw/hqdefault.jpg

Gabriel Suarez
12-19-2016, 10:20 AM
SELECTING THE HOME/OFFICE DEFENSE PDW (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/01/selecting-the-homeoffice-defense-pdw.html)

Monday, January 11, 2016 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/01/selecting-the-homeoffice-defense-pdw.html)

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First the plan.

1). THE LIABILITY-FOCUSED PLAN: If you like alone, the threat level is low (a couple of urban thugs vs. an ISIS hit team), your skill dedication is low, and your plan is to hunker down and call 911 - then get a shotgun with at least a 4 round magazine shoot it once a year and hope for the best. If its been a really long time since you have lifted anything but a chicken leg on the way to your mouth and have to use those velcro shoes...get a 20 gauge.

2). THE TACTICAL GUY PLAN: Regardless of where you live, keep a full set of armor plates in a chest rig carrier, festooned with magazines, and a bump helmet with a PVS14 attached right next to your slidefire equipped famous maker PDW with the drum magazine. If they get past the concertina wire and the attack dogs, you go SEAL6 all over their ass.

3). THE MORE LIKELY PLAN: You do not want to be an "average guy" so you have some degree of skills. And whether your family is made up of combatants or bystanders, you take them into consideration. If they are combatants, they have their own weapons...if they are not, you are not going to rely on them...but still have to deal with their presence in the AO. So you will have something that you can shoot people in the face with from the bedroom to any place along the house.

Your HD-PDW will be zeroed for the farthest reaches of your house...for a face shot. All things being equal, a stocked weapon is more accurate than a non-stocked weapon. And all things being equal, having more ammo is better. And...if one can do this silently, one will do so. Face shots, ear canal shots, and back of the head/neck shots eliminate concerns over body armor...or worries about terminal ballistics.

The notion of warning a home invader is the silliest thing you could ever do. You do not want them to know you are even there, nor give them the chance to turn on you. So you will hunt them in your home and eliminate them.

So...IMHO...forget shotguns...forget 308 rifles...forget anything other than an SBR.

300 BO?

Sure...not a bad idea and you can suppress it. Same for 5.56 SBR.

But in either case...FACE SHOTS not body shots. It is true...there is armor that will stop both rounds. How likely that YOUR bad guys will be thus equipped? I don't know...maybe you can answer that better. But IF the armor is present, and IF you are focusing on face shots ANYWAY...why not just stay with a 9mm semiauto pseudo-SBR? Silent face shots in the dark from across the house are quite possible...the lead photo is what I am leaning toward more and more. What do you think??

Gabriel Suarez
12-19-2016, 10:22 AM
THE PDW CONCEPT APPLIED TO CCW PISTOLS (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/02/the-pdw-concept-applied-to-ccw-pistols.html) Friday, February 05, 2016 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/02/the-pdw-concept-applied-to-ccw-pistols.html) http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c8119fba970b-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c8119fba970b-popup)

With the advent of the Glock PDW the old questions come up. I will try to address these individually. At the end of the day, this is just another tool that gives you additional options.


First a history: A personal defense weapon (PDW) was originally a class of compact magazine-fed, self-loading, often select-fire firearm - essentially a hybrid between a submachine gun and a carbine. The name describes the type's original role: as a compact but powerful defensive weapon that can be carried by troops behind the front line such as military engineers, drivers, artillery crews or other non-combat assignments. These soldiers may be at risk of encountering the enemy, but rarely enough that a longer or more powerful weapon would be an unnecessary burden during their normal duties. This is an important point analogous with the armed private citizen in the post-911 era.


Initially, this role was assigned to pistols. And while we have certainly extended the capability of a service pistol with accuracy (red dot concept), and capacity, they are nonetheless enhanced further vis-a-vis the addition of a shoulder stock. As a result, during the First World War, the Mauser C96 and artillery versions of the Luger pistol were issued with attachable shoulder stock holsters, which allowed for greater range, accuracy, and repeated hits due to enhanced recoil control.


Today, the Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) concept - developed during the late 1980s - in response to a NATO request as a replacement for 919mm submachine guns. The modern PDW was true in concept to the prior ideas, but added the goal of defeating enemy body armor. As well it was desirable that it could be used conveniently by support troops, as well as a close quarters battle weapon for counter-terrorist groups.


Application: We have established that this was never intended as a front line weapon. We have established that the main salient point of this weapon is one of convenience, and portability.


The PDW is not a reactive weapon. For sake of definition, a reactive event is one that explodes on you unannounced and without any prior indication of its unfolding. Think of the sudden attack, the ambush, the sucker punch. THAT is a reactive problem. If you have any indication that the fight is about to happen, it is emphatically not a reactive event. So in that light, you will not get the PDW out of the bag as a bad guy is pointing in on you during an armed robbery. This problem must be handled with the pistol on your person.


So as a way to illustrate -


"You FIND YOURSELF in a fight with your pistol, but you GO TO the fight with your PDW".



While one can argue that it is easy to carry a folding stocked AK or an SBR M4 around every day, but the truth is that it is not. It is quite inconvenient, and being that, you will likely not adopt that as a habit. So while a Knights SR-25 would be better in a long range gunfight...but you will not be carrying this with you in everyday. That answers the , "Why not just carry a rifle" crowd. Because carrying a rifle around is inconvenient and you will not do it. You may have one in the personal vehicle...in a bag...in the trunk, but that is a far cry from "within arm's reach".


The other aspect of this is caliber. The study of human conflict is the study of measures, and countermeasures. Armor was a countermeasure to swords, and firearms were a countermeasure to armor.


Measure: It was an easy argument to justify using only a rifle caliber in order to defeat armor...but the countermeasure to that was armor that is resistant to rifle bullets. And the more time passes between invention and usage, the more prolific that technology becomes. So today, it is quite easy to procure armor with plates that will resist rifle bullets. As well, the modern adversary may well be equipped with a "personal IED" strapped to his body where armor would be.


Countermeasure: Shoot them in the face. If you need to use the face shot as the objective due to modern considerations, then the rifle concept is not as necessary as it once was. Note that I am not suggesting we no longer use rifles, simply pointing out that placing a group of three or four face shots on board at parking lot distances in minimal time will be easier with a stocked pistol than with a rifle for most people.


Even teams who have access to anything they wish, are revisiting the submachinegun, suitably accurized and equipped with modern optics, just for the reasons I have described.
To recap the attributes of the PDW concept as expressed with the Glock PDW Concept:


Convenience:



1). Small, light and compact. In fact, much more so than any comparable rifle caliber weapon, or pistol caliber weapon.
2). Same manual of arms as your daily carry pistol
3). Same parts, and caliber, and magazines as your daily carry pistol
4). While I am far more an advocate of a dedicated pistol assigned to this role than an under-fire conversion, the weapon can go from pistol to PDW, or PDW to pistol, quickly.

Applicability:



1). Easy to carry with you in a briefcase, or laptop bag...specially so if a folding unit is added.
2). Does not replace the on body carry of a pistol, but it increases your lethality when facing unplanned, yet proactive defense in the workplace against a jihadist or active shooter.
3). Its compact size will increase the likelihood that you bring it with you (in the briefcase or laptop bag you will take with you anyway).

As a modern pro-active weapon for our times, in the urban role, that is at the same time effective, applicable to modern threats and convenient to rely on, this Glock PDW concept has alot going for it and few drawbacks.

Gabriel Suarez
12-19-2016, 10:23 AM
https://youtu.be/3zFSJ_QpNbY

PDW MAGAZINE "L" CLAMP (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/02/pdw-magazine-l-clamp.html) Thursday, February 04, 2016 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/02/pdw-magazine-l-clamp.html) http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01bb08b610eb970d-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01bb08b610eb970d-popup)
PDW MAGAZINE "L" CLAMP

The magazine clamp is a tried and true method for speeding a reload either proactively or reactively. Most of the magazine clamps on the market set the magazines side by side. This is fine for a carbine, but impossible to use effectively with a magazine contained in the weapon's pistol grip. The Israelis solved this years ago with a clamp designed to carry an extra magazine at "L-shaped" configuration for the UZI SMG.

We took the concept and applied it to the Glock PDW. This worked great with the 31 round ETS Magazines, and less so with the OEM Glock 33 Round magazines. With the ETS magazines the hold is firm and holds up under extended firing. A perfect fit and match.

The technique is to carry the reload to the rear. As you can see in the images, the spare magazine rides closely up against the Shockwave adapter/brace. On the reload, the operator presses the magazine release button, extracts the magazine and with a turn of the wrist, and without the need to go to the belt, has another reload in the weapon.

http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d19b6232970c-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d19b6232970c-popup) http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c81147a5970b-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c81147a5970b-popup) http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c81147b1970b-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c81147b1970b-popup)

Gabriel Suarez
12-19-2016, 10:25 AM
AN OLD CONCEPT WHOSE TIME RETURNED (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/02/an-old-concept-whose-time-returned.html) Monday, February 22, 2016 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/02/an-old-concept-whose-time-returned.html) http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c818d51f970b-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c818d51f970b-popup)
The rediscovery of the stocked pistol in Glock PDW form has created a dialog about this early 20th century weapon.


Why not just use a rifle?



What does this give you that a regular pistol won't?



Why not just use an SMG?


All valid questions actually, and we will seek to answer them, but first I wanted to discuss its shootability. It is a difficult thing to express, but we all know it when we see it...or feel it. A Glock is more "shootable" than a Desert Eagle for example. There are intangibles such as weight, balance, the feel of the recoil pulse, etc.

In order to have a baseline of objectivity I dragged out some old SMG Qualification Courses and used the PDW to run them.

The first one was Taylor's old SMG segment of the oddly named Combat Master Course. The course is as follows -

Two shots at each distance from 50 to 10 meters at ten meter intervals (so...50, 40, 30, etc...all the way to ten yards) with decreasing time limits. Three seconds at 5o yards all the way down to 1 second at ten yards. All time limits were met easily with the Glock PDW and I will note that the "stock" helps immensely at coming up on target quickly. I repeated the drills with a standard Glock from ready position and the PDW was a little faster each time.

The follow up second shot was also faster as the recoil pulse is almost non-existent.

Taylor was fond of the Underarm Assault position where he favored full auto use. The times reflected this with two shots at 10 meters in 1 second and 7 meters in .8 seconds (not a problem with the PDW). The last stage in this was with two shots at 3 meters in a half second. I didn't make that one, taking a full .75. But I was not using full auto on any of these and didn't really use an underarm assault.

Head shots at 7 meters and 10 meters in 1.5 and 2.0 seconds respectively was quite easy...the RMR making this a simple exercise.

All in all, the only place where a true SMG in full auto would have been beneficial would have been a 3 meters, but then only for a .25 second benefit.

And before you begin regaling me with questions about why only two shots and what kind of target and all that jazz, let me stop you and tell you that I used this because there are very few SMG Qualification Courses out there and didn't want to spend the time to write our own as it would undoubtedly be suggested the course was written so the PDW would pass. The PDW needed to perform in a drill designed for the SMG, and it did so.

Now to the usual questions -

Why not just use a rifle?

Well...it depends on the mission and the environment. I think we have killed the myth of the universal weapon. I even tried to build a universal rifle once. No...all weapons are special purpose weapons designed to operate within a given niche. An SMG is better for Urban CQB than the sniper rifle...for example.

But back to the question - the main advantages of the rifle are reach and penetration. But that comes at a price of size, weight and muzzle blast. Yes, we can add a silencer but we are now adding more weight and size. Everyone wants a weapon the size of an HK PDW that can bring down a T-Rex. Such a thing does not exist. Suffice that the SMG shines and is selected over the assault rifle are characterized by high intensity, short duration, aggressive/proactive events in urban areas (and plenty of teams still opt for the SMG over the rifle). Moreover, insofar as the PDW, we have the same manual of arms, same magazines, same caliber and all in a very compact package that can be left in SMG/Pseudo-Carbine form, or converted into a holster pistol in a few seconds.

You can certainly seek to press any weapon into areas it was never intended to be used, but I find one will have far better success by using the right tool for the job.

What does this give you that a regular pistol won't?

Quicker on target, better recoil control, faster follow up shots and greater potential for accuracy than a pistol. That is about it.

Why not just use an SMG?

Well, as we found out a long time ago, and re-established in Taylor's SMG course, full auto is not the panacea that some suggest. In fact, the only real benefit was shown at extremely close range, at least according to the shooting test. I suspect the bad guy would not notice the quarter second difference.

So if we set aside the need for full auto - which I have, exactly just what does an UZI or a Czech EVO offer me over the Glock PDW? Wait, I know: More weight, bigger weapon, different parts and magazines, different system to learn. More performance? Not from where I am watching.

Later this year, with help from some friends, we plan to run some more drills with this weapon, other stocked pistols, and some SMGs. We will see what we see, but I think the Glock PDW concept has some very definite advantages. An old concept whose time seems to have returned.

Gabriel Suarez
12-19-2016, 10:26 AM
THE STOCKED PISTOL REVISITED FOR 2014 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2014/10/the-stocked-pistol-revisited.html) Wednesday, October 08, 2014 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2014/10/the-stocked-pistol-revisited.html) http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01bb0794e878970d-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01bb0794e878970d-popup)
In the dim past, when the first functional self-loading pistols became available, it was examined as what we would today call a PDW (personal defense weapon). Unlike the infantry rifle, or other long gun, this was meant to defend the user and extend the capabilities of the "one-handed pistol".


The first stocked self-loading pistol was the Borchardt, a clumsy but functional for the day, pistol. It incorportaed a flat detachable stock. Eventually Mauser and Luger expanded on the idea as well as Mr. Browning and Mr. Webley. In fact, it was a common accessory for military pistols of the pre-WW2 era...and subsequent designs such as the HK VP-70 and others that followed.


Because of our ever protective government, having a true stocked pistol requires licenses and an additional $200 for those in free states. But with the advent of the American With Disabilities Act creating a true "protected class", and that in turn giving rise to a very clever work around in the form of the "Pistol Stabilization Braces", even that is a non-issue. And I want to stipulate that I am not referring to the ridiculous RONI conversions. Rather simply to something that can be added instantly, without tools or drama, and be deployed immediately.


http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d079b4f6970c-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d079b4f6970c-popup)

So the question is...why?


The first big question I suppose is this. It is not a rifle, and only has the ballistic capability of a pistol, so why add a stock to a pistol? In my studies I have found that a stock does two things.


1). It allows a much steadier hold on the weapon than you can get from any "standard" pistol position. Steadier hold means greater long range accuracy, as well as more precise short range accuracy. A pistol is no more difficult to "fire" than a rifle, but it is easier to hit with a rifle due to its four points of contact, versus only two for the pistol.


It will help you steady yourself in less time than a stockless pistol so you can make the longer shots quicker. There is no question that one can make long shots with a regular pistol, specially if it has the correct red dot systems installed by our organization. The point is that a stock will allow you to do it more often, more consistently, and faster.


2). It allows greater recoil/muzzle flip control and thus allows for a much quicker follow up shot, or shots. It will help you recover from recoil faster thus putting more damage on the bad guy in a shorter period of time. And for those who would lecture me on recoil control, please do not. Trust me, an additional contact point will help you do it better.


These two things cannot be denied by anyone who tries the concept.


3). Does a pistol caliber aid you over a rifle caliber? In certain locations, the answer is yes. Keeping a small bag, carry-on, or backpack with an extra pistol, or even the stock alone is far easier than lugging around a full size and full weight rifle or SMG.


4). Why not just go with a SBR AR or an SBR AK instead? You could. But the concept we are looking at can fit in a much smaller package and thus will not likely be left behind. Why was the MP5 PDW not the same exact size as the full sized MP5...or HK 53? Because the bigger weapons were left behind in the environments where the much smaller PDW would not.


You can probably put a Suarez Red-Dot Equipped Glock 34 and its stock in a typical sized laptop bag and take it everywhere with you...in addition to your CCW/EDC pistol which should be in the same caliber and use the same magazines.


5). And finally....guys...we need to understand the application. This is not for the "CCW surprise gunfight". The entire PDW Concept (Personal Defense Weapon) is for a generally proactive offensive application. The application is for everyday use by those not intentionally going in harm's way, but who may be visited by harm on occasion. One will have some warning of the need for the PDW in contrast to not having it for the quick draw and get-off-the-x shot.


Granted...it is not the best offensive weapon, but like the pocket pistol, it may the only one possible in many venues.


In an NPE, or an SRE (socially restricted environment), a stocked pistol can be disassembled of the stock, and the stock can remain with you while you holster the pistol itself. Or an entire stocked pistol with several magazines can fit into a lap top bag. A smaller bag will not receive the same attention as a larger bag.


A good candidate for this would be a Glock 34. One can obtain a detachable stock for this, as well as 33 round magazines, making this a very compact and versatile PDW. Add a Surefire Light, a red dot installation, and there is very little that cannot be done with this weapon inside its ballistic limits.


Applications? Think of those times, whatever they may be, when you would love to have a rifle, but bringing it along, or going to get it would not be possible. True the Stocked Pistol PDW is not a rifle, but I will bet it would have come in very handy in Mumbai, Nairobi, and a few other places.

Gabriel Suarez
12-19-2016, 10:31 AM
https://youtu.be/3zFSJ_QpNbY


https://youtu.be/Dalhw0akIrA


https://youtu.be/Y76ccQnOA3s


https://youtu.be/cbXo540lIME

bw118
12-19-2016, 11:00 AM
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Details on the middle one please?

Gabriel Suarez
12-19-2016, 05:34 PM
Not mine...only a pic.