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Gabriel Suarez
07-29-2016, 01:23 PM
TERRORIST BORNE EXPLOSIVE DEVICES - PART 1 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/07/the-mechanics-of-a-terrorist-borne-ied.html) Friday, July 29, 2016 (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/07/the-mechanics-of-a-terrorist-borne-ied.html) http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c880b708970b-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b7c880b708970b-popup)

I am not a subject matter expert on suicide vests. But simply shrugging and saying, "Not my rice bowl", is a foolish perspective. So I inquired of a brother whom some of you are familiar with. His nom d'guerre is "Sua Sponte" and he had a great deal of insight on the mechanics and use of the terrorist's IEDs.
Here are his comments:

IEDs are in many ways as unique to the "bombmaker/organization" as is a fingerprint to you or I.

This means we can predict a few things. For example in war zones such as Iraq, Afghanistan or places with a very vibrant black market we tend to see SBIEDs (Suicide Borne Improvised Explosive Devices) or S-vest for short, being made out of RDX based military grade explosives, such as the Semtex family, C-4, Composition B, or Block TNT.

All of these are easy to use and very stable, I have literally chewed on C-4 in a class to show guys that its not going to accidentally initiate if dropped or shot.

These types of explosives have a very high velocity and low N.E.W. (Net Explosive Weight) meaning that you get a lot of bang for your buck. These types of explosives are also relativity easy to detect with wipe systems such as the ones used at airports and naturally K9s can sniff the hell out of these.

In the more developed world, due to the difficulty involved with acquiring proper explosives, we tend to see devices made out of homegrown explosives such as Acetone Peroxide or Triacetone Triperoxide (TATP). They are granular crystal compositions and typically housed in hard vessels on the devise such as PVC pipe to help protect it. Its is pretty easy to make this stuff with basic chemistry knowledge and commonly available chemicals. And because it does not contain a nitro base such as RDX it is difficult to detect - although a good K9 can sniff it out.

However it is wickedly unstable! Like a "Bi-Polar Cheerleader Hooker on Meth" unstable.

If you shoot this stuff it will detonate!

Even an impact such as a hard take down or body throw could make it go off. But the unstable nature of this explosive is also one of its assets to the bombmaker because unlike military grade explosives that require a high velocity/high heat detonator, TATP doesn't.

The triggering systems are most commonly electrical, although I have seen a few with primer initiation systems similar to the "shock cord" we use for explosive breeching. And they can be simple press/release circuits or much more complex systems with both primary and back up command circuits to be detonated via cellphone by an "observer" in the event the bomber gets prematurely interdicted or cold feet.

Virtually every SBIED I have ever seen has a shrapnel component built into it to increase the effective range of the device; they use things like nails, ball bearings, or even glass when wanting to reduce the magnetic signature. The shrapnel component is often just taped to the outside of the explosives making the guy into a walking claymore mine.
There you go brother .......SBIEs 101

Stay vigilant. I suspect that we will see more CONUS attacks in the near future.

searcher 45
07-29-2016, 01:46 PM
We talk and revisited this topic, but I do not remember the effect range of this shrapnel loaded vest?

We talk about 25 yards, but is this far enough back to protect family members?

With home made explosives you sure would not want to shoot them COM even at range and a head shoot lights out shoot might trigger the vest as he falls to ground.

Anyone who wants to ware one of these vest< I hope it blows up when they first put it on in the company of all the rest of the vest loaded buddies and the vest maker or makers!!!!!!!!!

Look mommy! the house down the street just blow up, yes mommy it is the one with the bowlegged goats tied outside.

Gabriel Suarez
07-29-2016, 01:59 PM
Mine


We talk and revisited this topic, but I do not remember the effect range of this shrapnel loaded vest?

We talk about 25 yards, but is this far enough back to protect family members?

Distance is variable depending on various factors. Bottom line is you can't run away fast enough...but you can probably prevent him from setting it off.

With home made explosives you sure would not want to shoot them COM even at range and a head shoot lights out shoot might trigger the vest as he falls to ground.

Historically, falling from being shot has not set them off. Anything could happen, but not doing anything is not an option. Running away is not an option unless you are already far away enough. Your best chance is a face shot and multiple face shots.

Anyone who wants to ware one of these vest< I hope it blows up when they first put it on in the company of all the rest of the vest loaded buddies and the vest maker or makers!!!!!!!!!

Look mommy! the house down the street just blow up, yes mommy it is the one with the bowlegged goats tied outside.

michael
07-29-2016, 02:05 PM
Great comments by Sua, thanks for sharing Gabe. TATP and the like are scarier to me because they are so unstable, and anyone with basic knowledge can put it together. Dangerous times, and all the more reason to practice those head shots.

searcher 45
07-29-2016, 02:06 PM
Mine


Thank you Gabe for the answer!!

Was not planning to run away, more like tell family run and provide accurate cover fire to face of attacker!!!!

JonathanNobody
07-29-2016, 02:11 PM
IED test site located about two hours from Gabe's home town. Danger is close to home so to say.

Gabriel Suarez
07-29-2016, 02:18 PM
IED test site located about two hours from Gabe's home town. Danger is close to home so to say.


J...the other "J" briefed me on the discussion. Good times.

Yondering
07-29-2016, 02:19 PM
Great comments by Sua, thanks for sharing Gabe.

Yes, great stuff, thanks for sharing.

SUA SPONTE
07-29-2016, 02:44 PM
It's getting late here and I need to be up early but I will chime in briefly and discuss IED survival.

1. As Gabe already mentioned You CAN'T run away fast enough, nor can your loved ones.

2. Safe "Standoff" distance is impossible to know without knowing the actual composition of the IED.

3. SEEK HARD COVER!!!! Explosive blasts act on the body in three ways (more on those in a minute and why cover beats distance in this case)

4. Forewarned is Forearmed....Learn to be a trained observer who can rapidly assess large groups of people and zero in on things that are relevant to the tactical situation. We no longer live in a world where being caught in condition Brown is going to just cost you your wallet and your pride; no if you get caught unaware you will end up in condition DEAD.

More to follow shortly

SUA SPONTE
07-29-2016, 03:29 PM
Conventional explosive blasts act on the body in three basic ways (and a couple more related but we only need to worry about the Big 3 in the moment.)

49039

PRIMARY Effect - This is the effect of the actual rapid combustion of the explosive material resulting in Heat and a powerful Over-pressure wave. We tend to see thermal burns from the heat and damage to gas filled structures such as Lungs, GI tract, and Middle ear. Understanding that the over-pressure effect is actually a wave form we can visualize how by seeking hard cover much of the over-pressure will go over or around us.
49036
Blast Lung

SECONDARY Effect - These are the bomb fragments and other derbies being pushed through the air at Mach Jesus by the over-pressure of the primary effect. This is the really nasty part of smaller S-vest size IEDs. Causing every number of penetrating trauma small to huge. Again hard cover will largely protect us from this effect as well.
49037

TERTIARY Effect - This is the effect of the over-pressure wave propelling the body though the air and impacting it with another object. From this we see all manner of blunt trauma from fractures to closed head injuries. And once again hard cover will largely eliminate this effect.
49038

ss58
07-29-2016, 03:36 PM
Thank you.

Gabriel Suarez
07-29-2016, 03:41 PM
I think the day is fast approaching where people profiled and suspected of having/wearing an IED will be summarily shot.

SUA SPONTE
07-29-2016, 04:09 PM
I think the day is fast approaching where people profiled and suspected of having/wearing an IED will be summarily shot.

Certainly true......just because the weapons change doesn't mean that the realities of the fight do.

Action is still beats Reaction even if your enemy chooses a bomb as his weapon.

Badger
07-29-2016, 05:32 PM
One time I had to go through a trash bag that held what was left of some of my men in an attempt to find identification documents and personal effects. They got blown to hell in a market in Baghdad. I'll never forget it.

Devices such as these being used here are absolute game changers. Those who have not experienced these things better get their minds right and get training.

Dorkface
07-29-2016, 06:39 PM
We talk and revisited this topic, but I do not remember the effect range of this shrapnel loaded vest?

We talk about 25 yards, but is this far enough back to protect family members?

With home made explosives you sure would not want to shoot them COM even at range and a head shoot lights out shoot might trigger the vest as he falls to ground.

Anyone who wants to ware one of these vest< I hope it blows up when they first put it on in the company of all the rest of the vest loaded buddies and the vest maker or makers!!!!!!!!!

Look mommy! the house down the street just blow up, yes mommy it is the one with the bowlegged goats tied outside.

I think this is what you were talking about.

49040


Cover is my more preferable as it disrupts and diverts the fluid dynamics of the pressure wave and stops shrapnel. An overly simplistic example would be if you were outside in high winds and get behind a tree, rock or go around the corner of the house to get out of the wind.

michael
07-29-2016, 06:45 PM
Thanks for the info Sua, very timely and necessary.


Out of destruction rises opportunity. Never, ever give up.

jmoore
07-29-2016, 07:00 PM
And is there any truth to the statement that if you can't gain distance or cover when the bomber is near and has a "deadman switch" - shooting/disrupting the switch will work - sometimes?

geezer john

baker
07-29-2016, 07:06 PM
Thank you

Gabriel Suarez
07-29-2016, 07:10 PM
And is there any truth to the statement that if you can't gain distance or cover when the bomber is near and has a "deadman switch" - shooting/disrupting the switch will work - sometimes?

geezer john


If you can shoot the switch, you can shoot the face. Killing is the goal...not capture.

searcher 45
07-29-2016, 07:14 PM
Another question, as explosives tend to blow up and out, would getting on floor prone and shooting up at face be a better option?

jmoore
07-29-2016, 08:32 PM
If you can shoot the switch, you can shoot the face. Killing is the goal...not capture.

But if you are close, and if he has his finger on a true deadman switch - death for all in the area is pretty much guaranteed, headshot or CoM. Or am I missing a concept somewhere? Would prefer him to die, and me and others to live.

geezer john

michael
07-29-2016, 08:38 PM
I may be wrong, but seem to recall that very few actually use a dead man switch. I'm sure there are some, but believe it is the exception not the rule.


Out of destruction rises opportunity. Never, ever give up.

kmussack
07-30-2016, 03:50 AM
I recall glass marbles being used for shrapnel because they are radio-transparent (can't see them in an X-Ray) making treatment of the wounded more difficult.

SUA SPONTE
07-30-2016, 04:29 AM
I recall glass marbles being used for shrapnel because they are radio-transparent (can't see them in an X-Ray) making treatment of the wounded more difficult.

Yep the Israelis were seeing several attacks with that signature awhile ago. As well some devices have been captured while SSE'ing targets that were using conventional fuses, glass frag components and were completely metal-free; ostensibly designed to be brought into locations that rely primarily on metal detectors vs. pat searches.

SUA SPONTE
07-30-2016, 04:49 AM
Another question, as explosives tend to blow up and out, would getting on floor prone and shooting up at face be a better option?

Kinda but not really.......

If the only two choices were standing in the open or going prone, then certainty pronating out is going to win. However, you are still going to likely get f*%ked up! The primary effects (over-pressure wave) will run along the ground, and the thermal effects from the primary blast are based on your proximity to the epicenter of the blast not the direction of it.

Also an S-Vest detonation differs from that of a Mortar round, Hand grenade, or Landmine who's blast directions are largely "tamped" by the ground. Whereas the SBIED is essentially "air bursted" at chest level so the secondary fragmentation is going to hit you as well.

SUA SPONTE
07-30-2016, 06:40 AM
But if you are close, and if he has his finger on a true deadman switch - death for all in the area is pretty much guaranteed, headshot or CoM. Or am I missing a concept somewhere? Would prefer him to die, and me and others to live.

geezer john

A couple points that I think you are missing;

1. The probability of actually being able to disrupted the initiation circuit with a gunshot is very very remote. I like to believe that I am a better shot then most folks packing on the street and I have ZERO delusions that I would be successful.

2. As Gabe mentioned previously the goal is to kill the terrorist.....

3. Even though I said that it is unlikely that you can disrupt the device's circuit with gunfire you most assuredly can disrupt the would be bomber's master circuit (pons Varolii).

The "Pons" Latin for "bridge" is the structure that acts as the signal bridge between the Upper Brain and the Lower brain/ body. It is also surrounded on 3 sides by the Cerebellum "Lower brain" the area responsible for motor function. Disrupt this and it is LIGHTS OUT!!!

It is easily targeted...and you can now see why we say "shoot them in the F*%king FACE!!"

Target the NOSE, EAR, or Base of the Skull depending on your angle to the target.

49046

Badger
07-30-2016, 06:44 AM
Sua,

I haven't worked with explosives in several years so my memory is fuzzy and have forgotten some of the appropriate terminology and nomenclature so help me out on this. Since TATP will probably be the flavor of day, and doesn't need Heat AND shock to detonate, here's a random series of questions for you:

TATP still needs a container for detonation as opposed to conflagration, right?
If we somehow "remove" the container, the explosive won't truly detonate, generate the same pressure wave, etc., yes or no?
We can "remove" the structural integrity by fracturing, cracking or puncturing said container(s), yes or no?

Where I'm going with this is, hypothetically speaking, if you shot a vest with something like 00B and ruptured the container(s), doesn't that significantly reduce the device's capability or would it still explode before the pellets were able to destroy the container? Of course this hypothetical is based on an assumption our pellets could even rupture the container.

John Chambers
07-30-2016, 06:47 AM
Perfect! :)

SUA SPONTE
07-30-2016, 06:51 AM
Perfect! :)


Glad to see you're part of the discussion my Brother!

Badger
07-30-2016, 06:57 AM
Glad to see you're part of the discussion my Brother!

Absolutely!

SUA SPONTE
07-30-2016, 07:01 AM
Sua,

I haven't worked with explosives in several years so my memory is fuzzy and have forgotten some of the appropriate terminology and nomenclature so help me out on this. Since TATP will probably be the flavor of day, and doesn't need Heat AND shock to detonate, here's a random series of questions for you:

TATP still needs a container for detonation as opposed to conflagration, right?
If we somehow "remove" the container, the explosive won't truly detonate, generate the same pressure wave, etc., yes or no?
We can "remove" the structural integrity by fracturing, cracking or puncturing said container(s), yes or no?

Where I'm going with this is, hypothetically speaking, if you shot a vest with something like 00B and ruptured the container(s), doesn't that significantly reduce the device's capability or would it still explode before the pellets were able to destroy the container? Of course this hypothetical is based on an assumption our pellets could even rupture the container.


Theoretically yes; TATP once out of the containers and disseminated over an area it would essentially dilute it to the point of being inert. However that is a BIG Theoretically.....

The shock from a close range 00B blast could cause it to initiate, as well I'd have major doubts about the full evacuation of all of the device's explosive contents as most devises the explosive material is distributed in multiple containers around the vest.

Badger
07-30-2016, 07:26 AM
However that is a BIG Theoretically.....

The shock from a close range 00B blast could cause it to initiate, as well I'd have major doubts about the full evacuation of all of the device's explosive contents as most devises the explosive material is distributed in multiple containers around the vest.

Yes, it's a huge "Theoretically" filled with lots of variables. Probably too many variables to be an effective tactic. I'm just generally interested in the discussion and overall concepts.

I, like most, don't spend a lot of time running around town with a shotgun.

Gabriel Suarez
07-30-2016, 08:49 AM
I think some are missing the point. I doubt you would have the time to GO GET THAT SHOTGUN, that you probably don't have slung over your shoulder when getting the Espresso from the Starbucks Babe. And if you live in a small town where there are no Starbucks and you do in fact go into every shop that way, I doubt you will run into Jihad Jimmy there, but your life style is not what most of us want.

The reality is that this problem will be handled by a handgun...a handgun that is already there with you on your body. And there is no way to McGiver this except removing the operator by turning off his brain.

Hallux
07-30-2016, 10:51 AM
The "Pons" Latin for "bridge" is the structure that acts as the signal bridge between the Upper Brain and the Lower brain/ body. It is also surrounded on 3 sides by the Cerebellum "Lower brain" the area responsible for motor function. Disrupt this and it is LIGHTS OUT!!!

After a good LIGHTS OUT shot what's the chance of an unstable TATP type vest detonating from the force of the body hitting the ground? Shoot the guy dead and he blows up anyway?

SUA SPONTE
07-30-2016, 10:57 AM
After a good LIGHTS OUT shot what's the chance of an unstable TATP type vest detonating from the force of the body hitting the ground? Shoot the guy dead and he blows up anyway?


pretty low

gpagary
07-30-2016, 11:28 AM
If in approximate vicinity, shoot his head more than once. If the bomb does't detonate then look for handlers.

SUA SPONTE
07-30-2016, 11:42 AM
If in approximate vicinity, shoot his head more than once. SEEK COVER!!!! then If the bomb does't detonate then look for handlers FROM COVER.

You missed a critical point.......Fixed it for you

gpagary
07-30-2016, 12:07 PM
Yes from cover.

EDELWEISS
07-30-2016, 12:35 PM
I think the day is fast approaching where people profiled and suspected of having/wearing an IED will be summarily shot.

Yeah boss and lets toss in operating a RC controller too--but I don't see it happening before a lot of folks are killed a lot of times ....


Oh and I'm working really hard to find a reason to say "Wickedly unstable! Like a Bi-Polar Cheerleader Hooker on Meth unstable" on the police radio..... (because they already counseled me for describing a suspect with a full neck beard as a Mohammed beard) Priceless Bro...

res308
07-30-2016, 03:56 PM
Oh and I'm working really hard to find a reason to say "Wickedly unstable! Like a Bi-Polar Cheerleader Hooker on Meth unstable" on the police radio..... (because they already counseled me for describing a suspect with a full neck beard as a Mohammed beard) Priceless Bro...

Brother you sound like you'd fit in just fine around here!

Gabriel Suarez
07-30-2016, 05:23 PM
The one thing (well...maybe two things) I will say about cover is that

It is often not immediately available, and it takes some forethought to look for it. In a fight we like to move cover to cover, but life is not a fight, so we move normally. Picture this. You are at the coffee house getting your fix and a man walks in with a heavy coat, something under the coat as he walks inside - and as you sip the espresso you realize - FUCK - IED

Where is cover?
Is there cover?
How much time will you spend looking for cover?
Can you run away?
Can you run away - IN TIME?
Do the people around you matter (not always...but sometimes)?

Lots of questions...can you answer them and act upon those answers in the span of one "Allahu Akbar"?

There is something that I do know for certain, and that is that the video of the event will show me drawing and putting every round in my Glock into his face and then whatever is left into his face as he lays on the deck. If he blows up, well...he would have likely gotten me anyway...but by taking the aggressive road (cover is defensive), IMHO I have a better chance of being on Anderson Cooper explaining what the witnesses heard me yelling -

DEUS VULT MOTHER......

Dorkface
07-30-2016, 06:36 PM
Hmm... Considering the entry paths that are being used it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that other things like military or commercial grade explosives could also be being brought in. Drug mules haul metric tons of things here so why not C4 mules.

moses1moses11
07-31-2016, 02:13 AM
4906049060

Paper Shredder
07-31-2016, 04:49 AM
Tagged for interest. Great info here. Most of us civilians only hear about this stuff on TV. Eagerly waiting for later parts.

searcher 45
07-31-2016, 02:18 PM
This prospect is truly one powerful reason to close the borders and build a wall no matter who pays for it!!!!!!


Hmm... Considering the entry paths that are being used it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that other things like military or commercial grade explosives could also be being brought in. Drug mules haul metric tons of things here so why not C4 mules.

Dorkface
09-26-2018, 05:51 PM
Bringing this one back to the top with the recent body armor talk. Shoot them in the head.

Bob F.
09-26-2018, 07:04 PM
Also, muslim with 2 IED's stopped in kalifornia a few days ago.

Blade Doc
09-26-2018, 07:35 PM
Paladin Press (which went out of business last year) put a book or two by Israelis on how civilians could deal with suicide bombers. Never read them and couldn't find them on Amazon.

Something to think about, and its been covered in a different thread, is drones armed with explosives. If it is a "big" attack, there could suicide bombers mixed with drones that armed with explosives that can either drop bombs or crash into a target and explode.

Jonathon_Spaf
09-26-2018, 11:17 PM
Paladin Press (which went out of business last year) put a book or two by Israelis on how civilians could deal with suicide bombers. Never read them and couldn't find them on Amazon.

This?

https://www.amazon.com/Citizens-Guide-Stopping-Suicide-Attackers/dp/1581604335

3corners
09-27-2018, 12:46 AM
For good up to date background osint check here: https://iedawareness.com/
(https://iedawareness.com/)
Here are some graphics of blast patterns to give a basic idea of PBIED characteristics, as Sua stated in earlier posts however every device is different.

56449

Blade Doc
09-27-2018, 05:21 AM
That is the book I was thinking of. Thanks!

Gabriel Suarez
09-27-2018, 09:01 AM
I plan to do an updated write up on this.

The problem with technical books are that things change rapidly today and a book even five years old on terror tactics might be obsolete.

The drone thing is a modern problem that bears consideration.

As well the tactics and methods from the middle east are interesting but may or may not apply in the USA. We still need to use the existing flowchart.

I urge a study of bomb events in the USA to provide footing for the process and kata.

barnetmill
09-30-2018, 05:23 AM
A powerful car bomb killed one person.


Updated 2 hrs ago https://6abc.com/1-killed-in-car-explosion-in-allentown/4371913/
ALLENTOWN, Pa. (WPVI) --
Police have confirmed that a car explosion has killed at least one person.

The Action Cam was on the scene at 7th and Turner streets.

The call came into police at around 9:30 p.m. Saturday that there was an explosion in the area.

ATF agents along with local and state police are on the scene.

So far, there's no word on whether the one person confirmed dead was in the car or was a passerby.

blackie
10-01-2018, 08:55 AM
Three people dead in the Allentown PA car explosion.

It looks like a powerful explosion from the remains of the car, but there is surprisingly little damage around the car.

56470

Huntindoc
10-01-2018, 09:24 AM
I am certainly no expert but it looks to me that that vehicle burned up more than exploded. No blast damage to the tree (right next to it) or building???

Papa
10-01-2018, 12:03 PM
I've noticed that once modern vehicles catch fire things like interior panels, the dash and trunk lids and hood literally go up in smoke. Still looks like there was an actual explosion, judging by the broken front window on the house and the damage to the car behind.

blackie
10-01-2018, 01:09 PM
https://6abc.com/3-found-dead-in-allentown-car-explosion/4371913/

The dead include a father and son, 27-year-old Jacob Schmoyer and 2-year-old Jonathan Schmoyer, along with 66-year-old David Hallman.

Hallman was a friend of Jacob Schmoyer, authorities said during a news conference on Monday afternoon. All three were residents of Allentown, and he coroner says all three died of traumatic injuries from the explosion.

Jacob Schmoyer sent a few letters before he killed his self, son and friend.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/miserable-father-used-homemade-bomb-allentown-car-explosion-kill-son-n916686