PDA

View Full Version : Braced Glock vs. 9mm AR Pistol



docholliday13
07-03-2016, 01:16 PM
How does a braced Glock compare to an AR pistol such as the Angstadt AR? Obviously there are the technical aspects like barrel length differences (about 1.5") etc. but I want to look at the BIG picture and see where they stand at the end of the day in function and performance. As cool as the Angstadt looks if a braced Glock can keep up then you can do a lot more in upgrades to a braced Glock for the same price. Also how does a braced glock or 9mm AR perform with 100 yd, 150 yd, and 200 yd, shots on 12" steel?
48729

48730

CR Williams
07-05-2016, 05:24 AM
With the braced Glock used in a no-redesign-ATF-approved manner (feel a bit uncomfortable saying that--just not natural, you know?), you don't have all the contacts and solidity of firing set up the Angstadt does in the SBR setup pictured. Glock I think will be a bit easier to carry and conceal but I'm not sure if the difference is enough to matter. If the Glock set up includes a dot-sight I don't see much difference in shooting except it won't be as steady.

If you got paperwork and can run the brace as a stock all nice and legal, I don't think you'll find much difference.

DogDoc
07-05-2016, 05:55 AM
If you don't already have two SI RMR pistols, the decision is a no brainer...go the PDW route.

The PDW is probably lighter and is certainly more versatile. As to shooting, I've never tried to shoot mine 100 yards but yesterday I was shooting a baseball-sized reactive target at 50 yards with cheap ammo and it was stupid-easy.

I can't see any reason to complicate things by adding an AR 9mm pistol with different mags and more bulk. Maybe someone else can think of a good reason to get one.

Gabriel Suarez
07-05-2016, 06:35 AM
"if a braced Glock can keep up then you can do a lot more in upgrades to a braced Glock for the same price. Also how does a braced glock or 9mm AR perform with 100 yd, 150 yd, and 200 yd, shots on 12" steel?"

I have a stamp en route for mine for one reason only...so I can do a video with impunity showing the Glock PDW not only doing anything those 9mm ARs and UZIs and all of the existing semi auto SMG Clones...but doing it better. And if yu don't plan to do internet videos, you can probably ignore the stamp.

WarGoat
07-05-2016, 08:14 AM
I can't see any reason to complicate things by adding an AR 9mm pistol with different mags and more bulk. Maybe someone else can think of a good reason to get one.

The Angstadt Arms (and several other) lower takes Glock mags. It is definitely heavier.

As much as I liked the fit and finish of the AA UDP-9, it did not have a place in my home due to various other factors.

I'd recommend a Glock PDW over any 9mm AR15 at this point.

Brent Yamamoto
07-05-2016, 08:43 AM
The only reason to get anything other than the Glock PDW is because you WANT it. Period.

The Glock PDW makes everything in its class obsolete. Light. Fast. Easy to carry. Will do everything at 100 that a bigger gun will do.

Just like an old muscle car is obsolete...it might be awesomely cool, and you might think they its a lot sexier than what's available today. But it's still obsolete and the only reason to buy one is because you want it. Want is good enough and no justification is needed.

I have a couple subguns that I will SBR. But I'm under no illusion they are better...I just like them. We keep saying the same thing but people don't believe us.

EDELWEISS
07-05-2016, 08:51 AM
Id suggest that they are TWO DIFFERENT ANIMALS. The Glock PDW is a (sorta) Stocked Pistol. The 9mm ARs (et'al) are SMGs. Stocked Pistols have NEVER been able to compete with SMGs. Even in the semi auto mode, a Stocked Pistol is lacking against a SMG. Its not dramatic but its not the same. The difference however is sometimes outweighed by the convenience of carrying the smaller gun.

Neither gun is a 200yd gun! Yes they may reach that far; but its foolish to compare them to guns truly capable of that range, because it diminishes their real potential in the sub 100yd range. Both shine in the 0 to 50+yd range. Yes the Glock is unique that 33rnd mags are available; but when you factor ARs that use the same mags, that advantage is a moot point. Yes a AR 9mm is heavier and larger; but not significantly larger when the Glock PDW is carried assembled. The weight difference is hardly an issue when factoring a have dozen or so loaded 33rnd mags.

None of this should be taken to mean that the Glock PDW isn't as good as an AR 9mm pistol, or that one (either one) is better. They are TWO DIFFERENT TOOLS!

Gabriel Suarez
07-05-2016, 09:02 AM
Id suggest that they are TWO DIFFERENT ANIMALS. The Glock PDW is a (sorta) Stocked Pistol. The 9mm ARs (et'al) are SMGs. Stocked Pistols have NEVER been able to compete with SMGs. Even in the semi auto mode, a Stocked Pistol is lacking against a SMG. Its not dramatic but its not the same. The difference however is sometimes outweighed by the convenience of carrying the smaller gun.

Disagree 100%

1). A semi auto 9mm fired from the shoulder is a semi auto 9mm fired from the shoulder....period. You can call one an SMG if you like, but they both do the same thing in the same way. having run several SMG-based drills designed for the MP-5 and others with the PDW, I can say firsthand that unless we are discussing full auto fire, the two are IDENTICAL IN FUNCTION AND PERfORMANCE.

2). Stocked Pistols have NEVER been able to compete with SMGs? Yes, but we are not realllllly talking about SMGs are we? We are talking about a semi auto 9mm fired from the shoulder.

3). Even in the semi auto mode, a Stocked Pistol is lacking against a SMG? Ahhhh. No...its not and as soon as the paperwork comes in we will see that first hand. The Glock PDW makes the semi auto UZI, MPX, MP5, AR, and every other configuration I didn't mention...in semi auto...obsolete as far as I am concerned.

4). 9mm at 200 yards? Come on guys. An SMG...even full auto ones, are limited to 50 yards in just about every qual course I have seen. With optics we can push to 100 yards for torso shots, but more than that is a game not serious work.

There is NOTHING a semi auto Angstadt or other AR 9mm can do that a Glock PDW cannot do equally well.

Greg Nichols
07-05-2016, 09:15 AM
In my NSHO if I'm going to commit to a 9mm AR in weight and size I might as well move up to either a 5.7 or rifle caliber cartridge

EDELWEISS
07-05-2016, 09:48 AM
In my NSHO if I'm going to commit to a 9mm AR in weight and size I might as well move up to either a 5.7 or rifle caliber cartridge

I was initially dubious about the 5.7mm. Now that the FN PS90 has all but slipped away, I'm realizing I may have missed out on a good thing. A SBRd PS90 IS small, maybe not as small as a Glock PDW; but it is small and 50 rnds riding along the top is nice as well. Ive pondered a AR57 pistol or SBR; but haven't jumped.

I tried a 7.5" AR in 556mm, I question the ballistic efficiency with so short a barrel. A 300Blk is probably better in terms of ballistics; but both made a lot of blast and both have bigger and heavier (loaded) mags.

For ME the AR9mm works. Who knows Gabe may be right about the Glock PDW. I have both, so far the AR9mm just feels better to me. It feels like a fighting weapon instead of a pistol. I DO see potential for the Glock PDW concept. I think there are lots of potential improvements, starting with a better stock attachment device than the ENDO and something better than a buffer tube.

GemJedi
07-05-2016, 10:01 AM
If you don't already have two SI RMR pistols, the decision is a no brainer...go the PDW route.

I hadn't explicitly thought of it this way, but I had considered the benefit of having the Suarez Glock 17 PDW (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/pdw-kit-for-glock-pistols.aspx#.V3vm92PiP0g) available in the car being the same system as the Suarez RMR'd Glock 26 I carry AIWB. That is when I finally pulled the trigger last month and ordered the Suarez match grade G17 slide (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/suarez-v3-si317-slide-black.aspx#.V3vnJWPiP0g) and barrel (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/suarez-tactical-grade-g17-barrel-2-1.aspx#.V3vnUGPiP0g), and the Suarez patrol trigger (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/suarez-patrol-trigger-silver-gold-1.aspx#.V3vngmPiP0g).

Gabriel Suarez
07-05-2016, 10:15 AM
......starting with a better stock attachment device than the ENDO and something better than a buffer tube.

Why? These are available NOW, they are cost effective, and nothing weird is necessary for them to be obtained or used. Lots of great ideas in the adminisphere that promise improvements, and people wait expecting to see Bo Derek loping around the next sand dune when all they get is a hairy overweight Rosanne Barr in a thong. And all those semi-hot chick that were passed up from not being perfect...they went home with guys that knew Bo Derek was not real.

EDELWEISS
07-05-2016, 10:47 AM
Why? These are available NOW, they are cost effective, and nothing weird is necessary for them to be obtained or used. Lots of great ideas in the adminisphere that promise improvements, and people wait expecting to see Bo Derek loping around the next sand dune when all they get is a hairy overweight Rosanne Barr in a thong. And all those semi-hot chick that were passed up from not being perfect...they went home with guys that knew Bo Derek was not real.

Why look for better? I thought that's what we did. Boss, as Ive said I have a Glock PDW. I like it. I just see that there can be improvements. You've said that a folding device doesn't work for you on the Glock PDW. You made good arguments for why it doesn't work; but what if it could work?

The changes are way above my skills but I can picture them. The ENDO is what we have; but a better attachment system and a slim "stock" like say the CZ we discussed a few days ago would mean that the gun could be holster carried with the folded stock. Imagine a design with a flat "arm" for an even flatter Shockwave brace.

Yeah you can die on the beach waiting for a perfect 10; but you can also take what you have and make it better

Huntindoc
07-05-2016, 11:12 AM
I was initially dubious about the 5.7mm. Now that the FN PS90 has all but slipped away, I'm realizing I may have missed out on a good thing. A SBRd PS90 IS small, maybe not as small as a Glock PDW; but it is small and 50 rnds riding along the top is nice as well. Ive pondered a AR57 pistol or SBR; but haven't jumped.
48743

From our Red Dot class from a few weeks ago. With a threaded barrel on the Glock, there would be less than an inch of length difference. Certainly the PS90 SBR is a little taller and wider.

I think the real benefits of the glock pdw (or AR pistol PDWs) is the ability to take it across state lines without being required to notify the ATF or worrying about about individual State SBR laws.

Greg Nichols
07-05-2016, 11:25 AM
From our Red Dot class from a few weeks ago. With a threaded barrel on the Glock, there would be less than an inch of length difference. Certainly the PS90 SBR is a little taller and wider.

I think the newer versions have a lower profile with a flat rail upper. I think the P90 fits a mildly different role than the PDW in that it isn't common caliber or mags. I think the P90 is THE weapon for CQB, in my opinion but has been relegated to a niche due to lack of availability of ammunition, magazines, and parts. The PDW is a better all around solution even tho I have a special spot for the P90, especially in the FA version and with the originally designed round, I had the opportunity to T&E these before anyone even knew what they were and the system itself is light-years ahead of it's time.

ETA: Now I'm not saying I prefer FA for CQB because I've stated before it holds little to no value, but the FA had a variable speed trigger that the further back you pressed it the more that came out of the gun, pretty sweet.

EDELWEISS
07-05-2016, 11:32 AM
48743

From our Red Dot class from a few weeks ago. With a threaded barrel on the Glock, there would be less than an inch of length difference. Certainly the PS90 SBR is a little taller and wider.

I think the real benefits of the glock pdw (or AR pistol PDWs) is the ability to take it across state lines without being required to notify the ATF or worrying about about individual State SBR laws.

NICE Comparison Pic. It's also without the 33rnd mag in the Glock (and with 17 extra rounds). Yes there ARE advantages to the Glock PDW. Travel is one of them. Weight is another. Common mags and familiarity are others; but the PS90 is cool. It violates the "not a cop gun" rule, if that matters to you (but then so does the Glock in PDW mode). It violates the hardware store ammo and mags "rule", but are we really worried about buying our mags and ammo one box at a time?......damn I wish I had jumped on the PS90 10 years ago.

Gabriel Suarez
07-05-2016, 11:37 AM
Leaving the discussion due to mild exasperation.

DogDoc
07-05-2016, 11:41 AM
Why look for better? I thought that's what we did. Boss, as Ive said I have a Glock PDW. I like it. I just see that there can be improvements. You've said that a folding device doesn't work for you on the Glock PDW. You made good arguments for why it doesn't work; but what if it could work?


I have a folder on my Endo and it works great. As I recall, Gabe thought it wasn't worth the extra length. I suspect I'm taller than Gabe and am fairly certain my pectoralis muscles aren't as large so the extra length works for me. YMMV

Greg Nichols
07-05-2016, 12:05 PM
Look gang I'm really wondering why we keep having these threads over and over again. Since introducing the PDW concept these threads keep coming up of "ya but this platform, or this SMG, or this whatever".

It's the sort of mental masturbation that has been addressed multiple times. If you are dealing with a pistol caliber, that you intend to shoulder mount, there isn't anything out there that compares to the PDW. PERIOD END OF REPORT.

If you go bigger P90 or larger, you are either no longer dealing with a pistol caliber (read rifle caliber), or you are wasting weight, size, and commonality on a bigger platform.

If you want to own an SBR 9mm AR, P90, Scorpion, go buy one, but you can't say it's just as good or better than the PDW concept because it isn't.

EDELWEISS
07-05-2016, 12:11 PM
I have a folder on my Endo and it works great. As I recall, Gabe thought it wasn't worth the extra length. I suspect I'm taller than Gabe and am fairly certain my pectoralis muscles aren't as large so the extra length works for me. YMMV

Now imagine the folder with a flat stock (picture something the SIG MPX or Vz58 or Mini Uzi folder). Now picture it with the extension that hold the Shockwave attached to the grip not a ENDO. YES its fantasy; but if I can picture it, I'm pretty sure somebody could build it. Would it still be NON NFA? Maybe? At least as long as the ENDO/Shockwave stays NON NFA.

None of this means the current Glock PDW isn't good--its a great concept and a great tool as it is

Scottman
07-06-2016, 07:53 AM
I have an inexpensive folder on mine in the laptop. Yeah it would be cool to have it more compact but right now it works in a normal looking laptop bag or backpack.

Also, what I like about the GLOCK PDW is how I can bump up the caliber while still keeping lower weight. A 9 inch barrel still balances well. 9x25 in a 9 inch barrel with a conceal carry liscense has a high chance of being be my choice in states that don't allow my regular PDW that I've been carrying in my state. yeah might have magazine restrictions, but it's still a really viable option.

22 trainer available.

Airsoft trainer available.

different calibers available matching PDW to your AO.



WEIGHT is the big thing for ME for a PDW. It 's not just great in a Vehicle but goes with me on foot in a NORMAL looking backpack/laptop bag.

docholliday13
07-07-2016, 07:51 AM
Thanks for the replies on my question. The thread got a bit off the original topic but it was answered none the less. I really think that the simplicity, versatility, and ability to integrate with the same platform as your daily carry. I'm looking forward to the video Gabe that really shows what it can do!

messer454
07-15-2016, 06:56 AM
It might have been stated elsewhere but not in this thread. I have trained extensively with one 9mm Colt SMG and owned one of the new 9mm Palmetto AR's briefly. Neither were reliable with hollowpoint ammo.

khadga
07-16-2016, 06:21 AM
"if a braced Glock can keep up then you can do a lot more in upgrades to a braced Glock for the same price. Also how does a braced glock or 9mm AR perform with 100 yd, 150 yd, and 200 yd, shots on 12" steel?"

I have a stamp en route for mine for one reason only...so I can do a video with impunity showing the Glock PDW not only doing anything those 9mm ARs and UZIs and all of the existing semi auto SMG Clones...but doing it better. And if yu don't plan to do internet videos, you can probably ignore the stamp.


I eagerly look forward to this video which sounds likely to save me thousands of dollars.

It's completely ghey, but I think I'm resistant to the Glock PDW concept primarily because I've never liked the look of a stocked pistol.

Objective proof of concept will kill that really quick and then I can quit watching suppressed Sig MPX videos.

Paper Shredder
07-16-2016, 03:02 PM
I have an inexpensive folder on mine in the laptop. Yeah it would be cool to have it more compact but right now it works in a normal looking laptop bag or backpack.

Also, what I like about the GLOCK PDW is how I can bump up the caliber while still keeping lower weight. A 9 inch barrel still balances well. 9x25 in a 9 inch barrel with a conceal carry liscense has a high chance of being be my choice in states that don't allow my regular PDW that I've been carrying in my state. yeah might have magazine restrictions, but it's still a really viable option.

22 trainer available.

Airsoft trainer available.

different calibers available matching PDW to your AO.



WEIGHT is the big thing for ME for a PDW. It 's not just great in a Vehicle but goes with me on foot in a NORMAL looking backpack/laptop bag.

I don't have Gabes PDW Kit yet, but I feel another revelation coming on. I don't have questions on effectiveness and accuracy. I think under 100 yards with an optic, it's a 9mm braced firing platform.

My thinking as of late is if/when this shoot goes down and I'm blessed to be there to down the BG, the aftermath is a bit of an unknown for me.

I picture having to relinquish the firearm to he appropriate authorities for a AAR. Also, good chance I'll be throwing or ditching to comply with said authorities. I'm having some reticence throwing a $3,000 Tier 1 AR pistol (yes it's just money) or having it out of commission, being raped by the CSI lab. I'm thinking a glock 17 with a 100 dollar brace may fit the bill.... I won't lose any sleep over that tool.

ETA: yes all are tools, I view them as such, but would you open a can with a tier 1 chefs knife? I know my gun nerd side sometimes overcomes my pragmatic side. This leads me to buy more "lower level" tools so I don't feel bad abusing them.

Eric Tull
07-16-2016, 03:35 PM
My thinking as of late is if/when this shoot goes down and I'm blessed to be there to down the BG, the aftermath is a bit of an unknown for me.

I picture having to relinquish the firearm to he appropriate authorities for a AAR. Also, good chance I'll be throwing or ditching to comply with said authorities. I'm having some reticence throwing a $3,000 Tier 1 AR pistol (yes it's just money) or having it out of commission, being raped by the CSI lab. I'm thinking a glock 17 with a 100 dollar brace may fit the bill.... I won't lose any sleep over that tool.

ETA: yes all are tools, I view them as such, but would you open a can with a tier 1 chefs knife? I know my gun nerd side sometimes overcomes my pragmatic side. This leads me to buy more "lower level" tools so I don't feel bad abusing them.

I've got a SI pistol that's going to ship any time now that I'm going to add the PDW kit to. Yeah, it would kinda suck to lose that gun after a terrorist attack, but during the fight I'm going to be pretty damn happy that I've got the best equipment available, and that's what really matters to me. If God grants that I'm there when one goes down, I want to be able to perform my best, and an SI pistol with a PDW kit will guarantee that. I can always buy a new one afterwards; I'm sure I won't have any trouble convincing the wife after dropping one or more terrorists :)

GemJedi
07-16-2016, 03:45 PM
Plus there is the Suarez guarantee that if your Suarez firearm is confiscated after a terror attack defense, then you move up to front of list for fast replacement. Or maybe that is being announced sometime in the future.

Paper Shredder
07-16-2016, 04:19 PM
Also, I've been diligent on keeping my TIB with my 300BLK pistol in my car, but I couldn't guarantee having that on me if/when things go sideways.

I will add that a Glock PDW although even this package I can't guarantee having it in person 100%, it's certainly a smaller package that will have a better chance of having it with me. This discussion also skirts the conversation on rifles and being misidentified so a lower profile tool would be a bit easier as well to conceal in a SUL position.

I'm thinking my 300BLK system for TASI is a fleeting wet dream. I'm going to train harder with my SI-319 and have a G17 PDW in a more manageable EDC bag.

GemJedi
07-25-2016, 06:11 PM
With the braced Glock used in a no-redesign-ATF-approved manner.

I understand the ATF approved manner (brace rather than stock) but what exactly does no redesign mean?

Yondering
07-25-2016, 08:06 PM
I understand the ATF approved manner (brace rather than stock) but what exactly does no redesign mean?

Just ATF's opinion that if you use a brace as a stock, you've "redesigned" it through intent. Logic may or may not apply, depending what suits their agenda that day.

GemJedi
07-26-2016, 04:48 AM
Ok thanks. I just wanted to make sure my intent to attach a happy stick to the brace as a reload was not a redesign.