THE MAGYAR/MONGOL BOW

[Gabriel Suarez]

A new study for me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2I-i61d9Us


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRUU0Zq165k


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOpOqgotJZc

[Gabriel Suarez]

By the way...history is essential to the full development of any MAN, lest he grow up to be a man boobed, little peckered, liberal, lickspittle.

[Tyler]

I bet this will take awhile longer to master than let's say a TSD glock!

[Travlin]

I grew up with a longbow from my father and a 60s vintage fglass recurve. I have a 50lb takedown recurve in the safe now. I remember the feeling as a kid when you KNEW you hit as you let it loose. I think you are going to like your new study Gabe.

[BESEPUL]

Awesomeness...

[907Thunder]

This reminds me of the Lars Anderson speed archery thread post from some time back. I have been working on the basics with a recurve and a compound bow however I think I will try for shooting a left handed bow in a right handed manner soon. Also I look forward to the new Suarez TSD Recurve!

[buckcz]

I just finished "History of the Mongols" on the Hardcore History podcast. Outstanding! And great timing for you to bring this thread up.

[azDevilsFan]

I grew up with a longbow from my father and a 60s vintage fglass recurve.
My father had one of the bows made by Harold Groves (Prestige Hunter IIRC) when I was a kid back in the early 60's.
Not quite the Mongol bow thing, but he shot a lot of deer with it over the years. :thumbup:

[Dorkface]

I have been considering bows as a new challenge over the winter. If there is no challenge one could loose their edge.

[Shooter76]

I always loved these types of bows... That said nobody can say with any certainty that these are in fact the type Mongols used as there are no existing samples. The modern 'Mongol bow' is based on Hungarian and Asian (Korean and Chinese) composite bows and existing samples from Persia and North Africa. As most composite bows were very similar, albeit with some distinct differences, it's probably pretty close, but I doubt they're accurate reproductions.

Still I've always wanted one. However, I ruptured the tendon in my thumb a while back and will never be able to perform the proper thumb draw, so I'll probably stick with my recurve.

[Vigilant]

My first bow was a longbow from Howard Hill Archery, once I got proficient with it, I got a "cool assed" Fred Bear Kodiak compound! I would NEVER be proficient with a longbow on the move/mounted, but I'm betting I could get pretty good with that Kodiak? Never tried any of the "foreign" bows.

[coastalcop]

the thumb ring takes a bit of getting used to.

[coastalcop]

My first bow was a longbow from Howard Hill Archery, once I got proficient with it, I got a "cool assed" Fred Bear Kodiak compound! I would NEVER be proficient with a longbow on the move/mounted, but I'm betting I could get pretty good with that Kodiak? Never tried any of the "foreign" bows.

Problem with compounds is that the cam "bounce" at letoff throws your sight plane off completely when shooting fast or moving. non cam bows are the perfect tool for that job (shooting while moving or on the stalk when snap shots are likely) I use a Bear Kodiac still to hunt. Have a Matthews cam bow that I lend out (just don't shoot it anymore)

Do have a Korean horsebow as well, but don't shoot it as well as the bear. A shooting glove is required as you are shooting off the hand and not a shelf with the horsebow feather fletchings will score the hell out of your hand if you don't.

[coastalcop]

Jeff, a great archer, watch some more of his vids for him and his daughter shooting (as well as clay pigeon shooting with a bow !!!)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIepbh0Ueaw


Lars, has had a lot of crap talked about him, but he can shoot (even if he throws a ball weird)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

[EDELWEISS]

A new study for me.

Is that study as in reading for knowledge OR study as in bow in your hand, butt in a saddle and bleeding enemy at your feet?

[Gabriel Suarez]

Bow in hand and 2.5 acres to shoot on. No horse or enemy although there are some javelina to poach now and again.

I will say this about the modern compound bows...not to offend anyone but just as an explanation of my POV. When my son began archery I bought him anything he wanted and he got really good...he is far better than me (and a pretty good rifle shot as well). I went to Dick's Sporting Goods with him to look at modern pulley-based compounds a few years ago and he said...more or less - "Dad, if we are going to use something like this, why not just use a rifle?"

Part of the study of the bow...or the sword, for us is as a tie to the past, and neither Atilla nor Burton would have chosen a modern composite compound bow over a Recce rifle, nor a D2 steel and micarta sword over a Glock...at least that is what I think.

[Shooter76]

"Dad, if we are going to use something like this, why not just use a rifle?"


THANK YOU!!! I've been saying this for years... It's the same as the douchebags who slap scopes on muzzleloaders, you're missing the freakin point!!!

[coastalcop]

Bows should be a visceral experience, not a application in technology.

[EDELWEISS]

Hahahahaaaa I just gave HeadShrinkHer's daughters "wedding gifts". One got a katana / wakizashi set and the other a take down recurve bow. The swords are for display not use, as she fences saber, and the bow for targets (at this point...). I waited too long to find a long bow locally (in time for the wedding); but when I saw the take-down recurve, I knew it was "just right". Heck if she moves on to other things, I'll use it.

Yep its about history, IF theres ever a day when a "Man" can walk the streets with a sword, I'll be that guy but you can bet it'll be made to fight not just a duplication of historic designs to satisfy the thats the way they did it back then crowd. Im all about "historically correct" for living history; but if Im going to war I dont want to be forced to fight it with a Brown Bess when I can have a Mini Gun...

[Jack Rumbaugh]

I started into archery to strengthen eye muscles as a kid. Had the obligatory fiberglass bow to learn on and had a nice collection of recurves at my disposal. Ended up teaching archery at various BSA camps during the summers. I love modern compounds for ease of use but I'm a sucker for a well made wood recurve. I just might have to get back into it.

[azDevilsFan]

Bows should be a visceral experience, not a application in technology.

I think that there is something to this.

I'm sure it can apply to other things as well. If the experience is an important component; high tech may be more effective, efficient, accurate, etc. but may or may not provide the same 'experience' in gaining and exercising skill with a tool.

[Greg Nichols]

Part of the study of the bow...or the sword, for us is as a tie to the past, and neither Atilla nor Burton would have chosen a modern composite compound bow over a Recce rifle, nor a D2 steel and micarta sword over a Glock...at least that is what I think.

This^^^^.. he's ambi shooting, on the move or on horseback. What is old is new again, people of lost eras thought a lot differently about their weapons and weapon systems than we do now and were able to wring out a lot more performance from what they had to conduct warfare. Firearms have made people lazy when it comes to training and practice

[SUA SPONTE]

Very interesting bro.......Much like Greg and my study of the The fukiya (吹き矢) last summer.
47770

[Greg Nichols]

Very interesting bro.......Much like Greg and my study of the The fukiya (吹き矢) last summer.


Longest game of darts ever. The accuracy over distance and the control needed to maintain consistency was surprising to me.

[SUA SPONTE]

Longest game of darts ever. The accuracy over distance and the control needed to maintain consistency was surprising to me.


Not that the amount of 80 proof "Irish Aiming fluid" that was consumed had anything to do with it......

[ARodPDT117]

when hunting elk during the rut and they are screaming in your face from 10 yards away...that's why I bow hunt vs. rifle most of the time. Is there a place for rifle hunt, yes. Is there a place for bow hunt, yes. But you can't just dismiss compounds as a comparison to rifles, with an anything a bow can do a rifle can do better mentality. There are several factors that come into play, and a lot of that has to do with season dates, challenge, effort and everyone has their own spiritual take on it I am sure.

Sure every historic leader/conqueror in existence would choose a modern firearm over a bow/sword of any nature, but I am willing to bet historic archers would take a compound over a longbow if that option was available to them also.

[Gabriel Suarez]

when hunting elk during the rut and they are screaming in your face from 10 yards away...that's why I bow hunt vs. rifle most of the time. Is there a place for rifle hunt, yes. Is there a place for bow hunt, yes. But you can't just dismiss compounds as a comparison to rifles, with an anything a bow can do a rifle can do better mentality. There are several factors that come into play, and a lot of that has to do with season dates, challenge, effort and everyone has their own spiritual take on it I am sure.

Sure every historic leader/conqueror in existence would choose a modern firearm over a bow/sword of any nature, but I am willing to bet historic archers would take a compound over a longbow if that option was available to them also.

Not disputing that. But I am not focused on seasons and limit hunts and such. Not saying its not important...just not my focus. And while I fully understand technology, applying it to a bow is not for me. Not saying what YOU do is not valid, simply saying that the sword, the bow, etc. is a historical study, not necessarily anything else.

[Theophilos]

I grew up in the woods in Pennsylvania. It was quite a revelation when I realized bow hunters had little respect for those using rifles. It's all a matter of perspective, but those guys (long bow hunters) had skills. My friend's father made and sold muzzle loaders. Man he could shoot! Do I like my 556R? Heck yes. But I have always respected the guy who could feed his family all winter with a bow.

[DaveJames]

A style I wanted to study at a younger age, you can see the similarities https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZNdx_g_mr8

[Gabriel Suarez]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZNdx_g_mr8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afs6Q3Q8aqY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIFiLNE1f6s

[Badger]

I have a Howard Hill longbow and love it. If you guys don't know much about him, do yourselves a favor and check out some of his videos/books. He was utterly amazing.

[JimD]

Probably 20 years ago I went to a demo put on by a preacher from WV named Stacey Grosscup (spelling). He used a blow gun and would put darts on top of each other from probably 30 ft or more. I watched him shoot aspirins out of the air with a long bow. Amazing man and he was probably late sixties at least back then. I've shot recurves some but always hunted with compounds. There is something special about shooting wood bows instinctively. It was hard for me to be consistent. One day I could hit tennis balls at 30 yards and the next never hit one. Byron Ferguson is another amazing instinctive Archer as well.

[Gabriel Suarez]

For perspective...I can often have five rounds touching at ten yards...not always, but its not an event to write an article about. At the same distance with the Mongol bow, I was keeping them on an IPSC Cardboard.

[Brent Yamamoto]

Demosthenes and I took up archery a while back. Like many historic martial disciplines, I think there are valuable training benefits. The benefits are not direct the way a gun class or weightlifting are, but beneficial nonetheless even in an indirect way.

Gabe, last time I was down there, I noticed one of Eric's recurves on the wall is the same model Ted and I picked up. I wish I had bought a left-handed model so I could nock it on the right side. Live and learn

[Gabriel Suarez]

Brent, and Ted, and Greg,

Next time you guys are down, we will spend the evening letting the arrows fly. I can almost picture in my mind's eye, some desperate battle where the Crusaders were surrounded by heathen goat-mating Saracens. The Crusaders nocking and letting fly at close range. Arrows in the face - where else. One after the other as they whispered out a battle prayer for steady nerves and steady holds.

[Brent Yamamoto]

With hungry smiles on our faces.

[barnetmill]

By the way...history is essential to the full development of any MAN, lest he grow up to be a man boobed, little peckered, liberal, lickspittle.

A little tidbit of history:

The 14th century Persian historian Rashid al-Din is the one who describes Genghis for us. And he was described as tall with red hair and green eyes. Al-Din was writing after the Great Khan's death. But he was writing while in the court of his descendants in the Ilkhanate. And apparently both the red hair and the green eyes were family traits that a fair number of his grandchildren had.

And it isn't too implausible. Red hair and green eyes are both somewhat uncommon, but not unheard of among the Mongols and other steppe peoples. Even today modern genetic studies show that steppe peoples tend to have a mix of European and East Asian genetic markers. It shouldn't be too surprising that an area controlled by nomadic tribes had a lot of genetic wandering.
But in the end we have neither a contemporary description nor a painting. So we simply don't know precisely what Genghis looked like.




he may have been an Alan. these were normadic people some of whom that got pushed into the 5th Century roman empire by the huns. Became mercenaries for the romans and some dog breeds are said to be named after them like the Spanish Alano and the likely extinct french Alaunt.

Genghis Khan was also said to be the son of an Alan-ko (Alan)

[BigEd63]

A little tidbit of history:


he may have been an Alan. these were normadic people some of whom that got pushed into the 5th Century roman empire by the huns. Became mercenaries for the romans and some dog breeds are said to be named after them like the Spanish Alano and the likely extinct french Alaunt.


I'd be willing to bet there was more interaction of different types between ancient Europe and Asia than we know. Like the Celtic appearing naturally mummified bodies in the Gobi Desert and elsewhere.

[Greg Nichols]

Brent, and Ted, and Greg,

Next time you guys are down, we will spend the evening letting the arrows fly. I can almost picture in my mind's eye, some desperate battle where the Crusaders were surrounded by heathen goat-mating Saracens. The Crusaders nocking and letting fly at close range. Arrows in the face - where else. One after the other as they whispered out a battle prayer for steady nerves and steady holds.

Maybe bait in some of those coyotes

[barnetmill]

I'd be willing to bet there was more interaction of different types between ancient Europe and Asia than we know. Like the Celtic appearing naturally mummified bodies in the Gobi Desert and elsewhere.

AT one time there a lot of fair skin caucasians in that part of world. They just became less and less. That laminated bow being used by horseman has been around for a while. Until modern repeating handgun came into existence a skilled mounted archer had the advantage.
For Infantry the English Longbow Archer had an advantage. the problem with the English longbow it took a considerable amount of investment in man hours to become skillful. The laws at one time in england were set up get people to practice with it. The downside is that so arming the commoners was quite dangerous to feudal society.

The first guns were not the equal of a good bowman, but quite early primitive shoulder arms displaced long bows. the british military still had them in use on ship apparently the time of the Henry 8th IIRC. They were taken from sunken war ship (a ship of Henry VIII's navy that sank at Portsmouth in 1545). See longbows of the maryrose : http://www.archers-review.com/magazine-articles/june-2010-longbows-of-the-mary-rose/

[res308]

This has got me wanting to get the bows out and practice with my boys. Right now we use a '60's model 50lb Ben Pearson, a 45lb Thunder Stick, and my 55lb Samick Sage. I'd like to move up the ladder sometime, but right now I'm enjoying this takedown Sage. I don't disagree with the guys who use the latest compounds and all. Heck, a friend of mine is a factory sponsored shooter for Matthews, and I admire what he does. But, for me, there's just something about slinking through the quiet woods with just a stick and string in your hand, trying to match wits with nature's best.

[Mike OTDP]

Yep its about history, IF theres ever a day when a "Man" can walk the streets with a sword, I'll be that guy but you can bet it'll be made to fight not just a duplication of historic designs to satisfy the thats the way they did it back then crowd.

I don't dispute the sentiment, but the old-timers had things pretty well thought out by 1850 or so. The only dispute I know of was whether to go with a thrusting or cutting cavalry saber.

[barnetmill]

I don't dispute the sentiment, but the old-timers had things pretty well thought out by 1850 or so. The only dispute I know of was whether to go with a thrusting or cutting cavalry saber.
I know just enough to say it all depends. cavalry sabers were often used for thrusting for example. Here is a link for The Myth of Thrusting versus Cutting Swords http://www.thearma.org/essays/thrusting_vs_cutting.html#.VwVxCkeaKpk

[IANative]

Programming Note:

"Byron Ferguson's Bow School" on Shooting USA tonight (Outdoor Channel).

[ARodPDT117]

If anyone is looking to get into recurve/longbow shooting for fun or cheap, I got one of these as a gift last year and it really is fun to shoot. No doubt a true custom wood bow would be more satisfying but I have had plenty of fun practicing with this when I put down my compound.

http://www.goprimalnow.com/Compact_Folding_Survival_Bow_p/cfsb-1-50.htm

[EDELWEISS]

I don't dispute the sentiment, but the old-timers had things pretty well thought out by 1850 or so. The only dispute I know of was whether to go with a thrusting or cutting cavalry saber.

Hmmmm, maybe but; Im thinking the last 165 years have given us better materials and better manufacturing techniques AND as to cut VS thrust, well can we agree that tactics change with equipment just like equipment changes with tactics. Fight with a thrusting weapon and all of a sudden thrust seem important while slashing seems the way to victory if you only have a curved blade. Is there a good balance....maybe or ummmm maybe not??? I fence with an Epee, so an Ice Pick seems just about perfect--of course Im only fighting other guys with Epees...

[barnetmill]

Hmmmm, maybe but; Im thinking the last 165 years have given us better materials and better manufacturing techniques AND as to cut VS thrust, well can we agree that tactics change with equipment just like equipment changes with tactics. Fight with a thrusting weapon and all of a sudden thrust seem important while slashing seems the way to victory if you only have a curved blade. Is there a good balance....maybe or ummmm maybe not??? I fence with an Epee, so an Ice Pick seems just about perfect--of course Im only fighting other guys with Epees...

Dueling is a bit different from battle tactics where the only rule is survive by killing. Being in a melee is different. shields and armor make a difference. Also some people cheat by using spears and pikes. you might have to deal with a charging horse. Horsemen were last used to my knowledge on the eastern front during WWII. Curved swords are not just for slashing, but for getting around a shield to thrust.


Cossack charge
Here is photo of what is supposed to be a Russian Cossack charge in 1941 at
http://www.militaryhistoryofthe20thcentury.com/ in the WW II Photos page.
Just thinking about charging a WW II era Panzer led attack on horseback with sabres drawn. Very brave but a huge waste of men.
http://www.militaryhistoryofthe20thcentury.com/images/e4d6b4e3a6faefc78cc98dee85904e94.jpg

[barnetmill]

Shotel sword of Ethiopia

Its shape is similar to a big sickle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle) and can be effectively used to reach around an opponent's shield and stab them in vital areas, such as the kidneys (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney) or lungs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung). It is closely resembled by the Afar Gile. The Gile has two cutting edges, while the shotel's upper edge is unsharpened and sometimes used braced against the swordsman's shield for strength. The Shotel and other Ethiopian swords are occasionally referred collectively in Geez as Han'e. wikipedia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Shotel_%28Sabre%29.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VprBg8GiHqU&ebc=ANyPxKourGdyXbsCTBiHTXz-REXELumNpHrc8AcYGBWPiFp5A7B4Hoi1ca7WkzagrjmiRlEcV7 BH&nohtml5=False

[Greg Nichols]

Sickle Sword... and all this time I thought it was sickle cell

[barnetmill]

Sickle Sword... and all this time I thought it was sickle cell

Very low incidence of it in Ethiopia. Likely the sickle was adopted from a farming implement. As likely the oldest continuous christian kingdom in the world they spent a lot of time fighting the muslims to remain christian.


http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/images/map_of_sickle_cell_frequencies.gif

[BillyOblivion]

I'd be willing to bet there was more interaction of different types between ancient Europe and Asia than we know. Like the Celtic appearing naturally mummified bodies in the Gobi Desert and elsewhere.

There are a bunch of folks doing genetic analysis on human remains from all over and no, we have a really good idea how much interaction there was, including with Neanderthals and Denisovans. Rishathra[1] was apparently a thing back in the day.

https://westhunt.wordpress.com/ if this kind of stuff interests you.




[1] No geek points for Googling.

[BillyOblivion]

Horsemen were last used to my knowledge on the eastern front during WWII.

IIRC Afghanistan, 2003/4. http://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/afghanistan-conflict/secret-mission-the-horse-soldiers-of-9-11/1224907912001