PDA

View Full Version : Suarez HAND TO HAND COMBAT SKILLS class



V42
02-05-2004, 10:04 PM
I am curious why this course is not offered more as it strikes me as a huge gap in may people's training.

I would think this would be a great one day course to offer either a day before or a day after a 2 day saturday and sunday class.

It seems that practical unarmed skills are a weak spot with many gun people. I think the one day course would be useful, combined with a suggestion of things to buy (like a spar pro or BOB dummy or a heavy bag) along with a suggested program of short but regular practice that people can do on their own after the class is over.

While it's not the same as going a few 3 minute rounds, if you spend about 5 minutes practicing a few simple strikes 2-3 times a week, you will start building muscle memory and the strikes will be second nature before too long.

sanchezero
02-05-2004, 10:20 PM
Shooters, the majority, don't wanna learn how to fight. I don't know why, but I think it might have something to do with my theory that 90% of the worlds population is stupid.

Grey Wolf
02-06-2004, 12:29 AM
Shooters, the majority, don't wanna learn how to fight.

It is because the majority of gun owners, including many folks with CCW's, feel that simply having a gun will keep them safe. Most have no clue how quick thing s go down and very likely don't care.

I have seen a similar attitude with some LEO's I work with. I once heard on the radio from a guy being sent to a disturbance at a school “I don't need a back, its only kids fighting." Umm hello, just cause you have a badge and a gun don't mean you invincible. But this is the same SWAT guy that doesn’t wear a vest while on patrol. :eek:

Sheeple have no clue that bad people are sitting next to them at the movies, stopped next to them at a stop light, or serving them dinner at a restaurant. They have a safe little world in there mind and until they are violated they don't even think about defending themselves.

But alas that is job security for some of us.

Be safe
Grey Wolf

RedDevil
02-06-2004, 07:49 AM
When I saw this course listed on his site, I was disappointed that it wasn't on the calendar. I'd really like to learn some H2H training. Adding it to a weekend course would be great.

V42
02-06-2004, 09:30 AM
My main issues are:

1. Use of a firearm isn't always justified.

2. Even if it is you may need to use hand to hand skills to create space to enable you to draw your weapon.

3. You may not always e able to have a firearm, as someone upthread mentioned.

As to the effectiveness of martial arts, that depends on the style and teacher but most of them are designed to be studied for a long period of time. Some of them have questionable real world applicability and under stress of a real life fight, even practitioners of those arts often fall back to basic, powerful strikes, like the type you would learn in a one or two day class that teaches you basics that you will hopefully practice on your own.

One of the best two day courses around is www.rmcat.com

VaughnT
02-12-2004, 12:05 PM
Personally, I would be far more interested in a "street-proven" H2H class than I would be in a shooting class. While I have every intention of attending Gabe's close-range gunfighting class when it comes to town, the only real reason for doing so is that the techniques take place at close-range where the majority of attacks are likely to take place.

The trouble around the GreenvilleSC area is that there aren't any places of repute that teach real fighting techniques. I can take Kung Fu from a fat white guy, but even simple boxing is out of favor. Sad, isn't it?

Yea, sign me up for a empty-hand class! At least I'll save money on bullets.

Eric
02-26-2004, 09:44 AM
It seems that many folks who do seek out H2H training rely on traditional martial arts. But how "street applicable" are they?

It depends on the style and the instructor. There's alot of garbage out there. TKD and Shotokan based systems are a waste of time. Too one dimensional. Take away a TKD fighter's legs and he's toast. Shotokan is too linear, and all the 'good stuff' was taken out long ago. Judo is a sport, not a fighting system.

I have immense respect for Gabe and I'm sure he can put together one hell of a class, but one or two classes won't do it. For true H2H, you need to commit yourself to a good style and study. Its all about becoming comfortable with your body, the way it moves, and knowing what you can and can't do with it. And how to work it properly for the desired outcome.

I personally study Shaolin Kempo, going on 8 years now. Its based on Shaolin Kung Fu - specifically northern chinese Lo Han (long Hand) - that's 70% hands, 30% legs. Totally combat effective from the get go. Within a couple of months, you can hold your own in a serious fight; within a couple of years you can handle a serious (life or death) fight with multiple attackers.

Best advice is to look around, take your time, and pick a style/instructor you're comfortable with. And don't go for the 3 year/3G contracts either. If the school won't go month-to-month, its probably not good at retaining students. Or the style simply sucks. Take a class or 2 and decide for yourself. Don't be sold; a hard sell is an indication of a 'belt factory' that doesn't give a hoot about skill. Pay attention to dojo discipline and how the students conduct themselves. Are they serious, or just 'window dressing'?

Then decide for yourself. Remember, there are no 'right' or 'wrong' styles, just what works for you. Just make sure the BS factor is minimal.

AQUINAS
02-27-2004, 11:10 AM
We all have our opinion on various styles of combat (martial arts), however I believe in exercising caution when generalizing all shotokan karate or TKD as the same. Having studied a system of jujitsu for many years, I am naturally biased towards my own art.

However the excellent people I have met in the martial arts over the years have led me to appreciate that my particular exposure to a given system may not have led me to give a fair judgement of the street worthiness of that individual art.

I have seen practitioners in my system that are by my estimation, incompetent, as well as practitioners in systems I did not personally think were great fighting systems, show themselves to be the ideal of the warrior class.

Many arts have very useful "street application" upon close examination. This may not be immediately evident after the first class or two. Some knowledge is revealed slowly for safety reasons or merely practical training reasons.

Deaf Smith
02-27-2004, 04:49 PM
Go to any martial arts school. See how many adults are there .vs. kids. You will see the kids outnumber the adults a bunch. The thing is, most people don't want to work out. That's just the way it is. They want to shoot their carry gun 50 shots a year (if that), and their idea of a workout is to mow the lawn.

The only people you will see really work out are the few that want to be good. Most don't care.

todd_xxxx
02-27-2004, 09:46 PM
In my opinion, if you haven't learned the basis of how do defend yourself in two days, you're already studying the wrong "art".

"I have immense respect for Gabe and I'm sure he can put together one hell of a class, but one or two classes won't do it. For true H2H, you need to commit yourself to a good style and study. Its all about becoming comfortable with your body, the way it moves, and knowing what you can and can't do with it. And how to work it properly for the desired outcome.

I personally study Shaolin Kempo, going on 8 years now. Its based on Shaolin Kung Fu - specifically northern chinese Lo Han (long Hand) - that's 70% hands, 30% legs. Totally combat effective from the get go. Within a couple of months, you can hold your own in a serious fight; within a couple of years you can handle a serious (life or death) fight with multiple attackers.

Not sure I understand your point. One or two classes won't do it, but Shaolin Kempo is "totally combat effective from the get go", which I take to mean immediately. So your art is effective immediately, but you can't hold your own for two months? I'm not trying to bust your balls here, just trying to make a point. I think a person would get more out of two days training with Mr Cestari and some notable others than 8 years in a more traditional school. I can't comment on Gabe's H2H because I haven't been exposed to it. I would love to attend if he has a seminar near me. Feel free to disagree, it took me twenty years to come to the conclusion that most (99.999%) of people that study martial arts are having smoke blown up their asses.

My own opinion is that H2H skills are more important for most people than firearm skills, simply because most people don't carry a weapon most of the time. Many can't because of where they work, local laws, etc.

szorn
02-28-2004, 09:54 AM
In my opinion, if you haven't learned the basis of how do defend yourself in two days, you're already studying the wrong "art".

"I have immense respect for Gabe and I'm sure he can put together one hell of a class, but one or two classes won't do it. For true H2H, you need to commit yourself to a good style and study. Its all about becoming comfortable with your body, the way it moves, and knowing what you can and can't do with it. And how to work it properly for the desired outcome.

I personally study Shaolin Kempo, going on 8 years now. Its based on Shaolin Kung Fu - specifically northern chinese Lo Han (long Hand) - that's 70% hands, 30% legs. Totally combat effective from the get go. Within a couple of months, you can hold your own in a serious fight; within a couple of years you can handle a serious (life or death) fight with multiple attackers.

Not sure I understand your point. One or two classes won't do it, but Shaolin Kempo is "totally combat effective from the get go", which I take to mean immediately. So your art is effective immediately, but you can't hold your own for two months? I'm not trying to bust your balls here, just trying to make a point. I think a person would get more out of two days training with Mr Cestari and some notable others than 8 years in a more traditional school. I can't comment on Gabe's H2H because I haven't been exposed to it. I would love to attend if he has a seminar near me. Feel free to disagree, it took me twenty years to come to the conclusion that most (99.999%) of people that study martial arts are having smoke blown up their asses.

My own opinion is that H2H skills are more important for most people than firearm skills, simply because most people don't carry a weapon most of the time. Many can't because of where they work, local laws, etc.

I mean no offense to anyone but I have to agree with Todd here. There is a difference between "art" and combat and you should choose the path that is appropriate for you based upon your overall goals. There is nothing wrong with studying an "art" and there are some arts that actually do emphasize self-defense. However, if the goal is learning hardcore survival skills in a shor period of time than I would suggest looking for a class that places emphasis on those skills rather than on a specific "art" or style. Real self-defense can generally be taught in a few hours and by 2 days of hardcore training you should be able to successfully protect yourself. If it takes longer than that I would suggest looking elsewhere.

Steve

michael
02-28-2004, 10:29 AM
I agree with Todd and Steve. Real self-defense is not pretty, it's not flashy, it doesn't require years of practicing the same kata, paying homage to some "master" and learning the latest-greatest two-step sparring technique and earning your red and white striped purple and pink belt to work. If someone wants to do all that--that's wonderful, but don't confuse it with learning SD. Most "martial artists" I have met, and there have been many, would get their a** handed to them by a hard-core, conidtioned and determined street fighter. Does this mean we shouldn't study? Of course not, but if you want to learn how to defend yourself, find a trainer that teaches this and not how to spar in some karate tournament or compete in a MMA match. The basics of a good SD system can be learned quickly, is repeatable under stress, and can be retained with a very minimum of retraining.

Gene
02-28-2004, 11:58 AM
This looks like an excellent forum. Mr. Suarez is well-known and highly-respected.

My first post. May I---

After several decades of Judo and Jujutsu training as well grazing in the pastures of Karate and Aikido, I realized c. 1995 that (1) working out in a dojo with bare feet, a gi, bowing, politeness, etc just had nothing to do with the reality of the street and that (2) a few people had figured this out a long time ago and had come up with an answer: Use a few simple techniques that can be quickly learned and remembered, that can be practiced pretty much anywhere, and that assume you will be wearing street clothes and shoes/boots. The information is out there.

Time settles many arguments for us. If you have the time to go work out at a dojo several times a week, then do it and enjoy it.
Once I had the time; now I do not. Nor do I now consider it time well spent for personal/family self defense. Besides, at my age of 56, although I can still take Judo throws on a good mat, they are just not relevant to me.

Better to work on close combat for a 10-20 minute session, alternate with basic impact and edged weapon work, maybe OC Gas, and go to the range as often as possible.

The combat triad is (1) mental conditioning (for reality) (2) tactics (for reality) and, finally, (3) the combatives.

Without one and two, three is not much help.
:)

All the best.

michael
02-28-2004, 12:38 PM
Welcome, Gene. Don't discount your Judo and Jujitsu time. I trained in Judo many years ago, and although much of it is sport, there is great value in having contact with another human, even in a sporting environment. I think you will really enjoy the forum.:)

Dave in PA
02-28-2004, 07:14 PM
If I may be permitted to add my own opinion...

One often overlooked aspect is that even with all the training, if you never use the skills, it's still all just academic. Harsh words, but I still feel they are true.

My father said this about swimming...If you want to learn how to swim, you can read books, watch others swim, view movies, practice on dry land and talk to others about the different strokes...heres the "but", but if you want to learn how to swim, you need to get into the water.

I was a former boxer and spent several years in a style of Korean Karate. While it was all good, the best experience came from working as a street cop. I've had more than my share of scuffles on the street (including the latest encounter two nights ago) and that is where you learn what works and just as importantly, how you react.

I recently read Gabe's latest two books and it appears he feels the same way. I want to learn from guys like Gabe. Guys who have "been there".

As an aside, recently we had a short pursuit with a hit and run DUI suspect. The suspect resisted and three of us tried to take him into custody. He was younger than all three of us and stronger as well. While the two other officers flailed and grunted to make the suspect submit, I reached down and grabbed his "marble sack" to get compliance. He was uninjured and all went smoothly after that. I don't remember learning that in the dojo.

Dave

michael
02-29-2004, 01:29 PM
I agree with you, Dave. The beat is where I got to put my training into action, and working the projects for my whole career, there was not a lack of it. In reality, the ONLY way to know for sure is to put it into practice, but for people that aren't in an LE position where they get "training time", realistic combat scenarios are the best they can do. Nothing like real world experience, though. Don't want to relive it, but I wouldn't trade it for anything.

VaughnT
03-14-2004, 06:54 AM
Are you saying, Dave, that we should all join the PD to get some "real world" experience? I'm game - how do they pay?

Seriously, though, Dave is right in that all the practice in a dojo isn't going to amount to a hill of beans if you aren't somewhat familiar with what it feels like to go against someone honestly interested in ripping your head off. I just went a half-round with a guy at work, just playing, and he completely froze up when I stepped on his foot to pin him in place. I gave him three or four good hits while he stood there like a deer in the headlights because I cheated!

"You can't step on my foot!!!" "That's not how you fight!!!"

Whose keen on a basic, apprentic level, H2H course from Suarez International?

There are a lot of good ideas here, and from experience scrappers, so why don't we come up with a course skills list that SI or others can look at and consider for future instruction.

michael
03-14-2004, 11:46 AM
Vaughn,
I think it's a great idea. I'm game.

Eric
03-16-2004, 08:18 AM
...Not sure I understand your point. One or two classes won't do it, but Shaolin Kempo is "totally combat effective from the get go", which I take to mean immediately. So your art is effective immediately, but you can't hold your own for two months? I'm not trying to bust your balls here, just trying to make a point...


One or 2 classes will teach you enough to handle simple situations like 'rushin' attacks and simple bar-room brawls that resemble 'rock-em-sock-em robots' more than a real fight. Basic blocks, basic strikes and kicks are taught the first class.

The first techniques (REAL technique, not basic blocks and strickes) a white belt learns is how to handle someone quickly with simple 'gross movement' blocks along with strikes to soft targets or vulnerable joints like the knee and elbow. Of the 5 techniques taught at this belt, one is a solar plexus kick, another disables the knee, the other 2 are 3 strike combinations that tend to end fights quickly. This is the first 2 weeks (6 classes) for a complete newbie, maybe 3 for someone with previous training.

By yellow belt (about 2 months of training), the techniques taught are designed to quickly disable the opponent. Simple 2 attacker techniques are also taught. Later on (several belts later, with proper maturity) you learn that the former are actually kills if the technique is changed slightly. This allows you to select whether to disable or kill with the same techniques.

As one progresses, the movements become more refined, the theories become more encompassing, and the scenarios become more challenging. Over time this continues as more elegant (read effective) technique is taught along with more comprehensive theory and kata. The techniques generally become kills or permanently disabling.

One learns the body mechanics of power generation, and the various techniques of the different animals our style utilizes (akin to Shaloin 5 animal Kung Fu). Then we start adding White Tiger Chin Na, and small circle Jiu Jitsu to help round out the fighter. And this is all by Brown Belt. Once you hit Black Belt, things take on greater depth.

I could go on, but you get the point.



...Feel free to disagree, it took me twenty years to come to the conclusion that most (99.999%) of people that study martial arts are having smoke blown up their asses...


I totally disagree. There are alot of schools out there that are 'belt factories' or teachning junk. Alot of people out there train just to say they train. And many simply don't go beyond rote memorization of skills. But that doesn't mean that we all are that way. Nor does it mean that all styles suck. Look, you're entitled to your own opinion, of course. But there are alot of people who are dedicated to their training and take things very seriously.



...My own opinion is that H2H skills are more important for most people than firearm skills, simply because most people don't carry a weapon most of the time. Many can't because of where they work, local laws, etc...


Here we agree. As many schools of strategy teach, the best defense is a defense in depth. Firearms are simply one - possibly 2 (longarm/sidearm)- dimensions of a multi-dimensional problem. H2H is another. Between them lie various weapons, including improvised weaponry (broom handles, rebar, knives, batons, etc.) They all add up to a total package.


The best weapon one has is between ones ears.

georgel
03-17-2004, 08:10 PM
Hmm... Vaughn, Michael, you know we're going to have Gabe with us in a couple of weeks. Maybe we could steer the class a little or hit Gabe up for some pointers, depending on the class composition and assuming there's time. :)

todd_xxxx
03-17-2004, 08:54 PM
"As one progresses, the movements become more refined, the theories become more encompassing, and the scenarios become more challenging. Over time this continues as more elegant (read effective) technique is taught along with more comprehensive theory and kata."

I read "more elegant" as less effective. The most effective "techniques" I know are crude at best. The crudest, simplest techniques are far more effective than "elegant" or complicated techniques. Gross movement techniques are the ONLY effective ones. And if we were face-to-face, I could show you in 10 seconds that "blocking" is a fallacy in itself. The logical conclusion being, if your school teaches blocking, they are misleading you.

"There are alot of schools out there that are 'belt factories' or teachning junk. Alot of people out there train just to say they train. And many simply don't go beyond rote memorization of skills. But that doesn't mean that we all are that way. Nor does it mean that all styles suck. Look, you're entitled to your own opinion, of course. But there are alot of people who are dedicated to their training and take things very seriously."

Most schools are belt factories AND teaching junk. That has nothing to do with how dedicated the students are. I am very dedicated to my training, but I train in what works. I also take this training much more seriously than most, because my training is going to allow me to go home in one piece at the end of the night, as opposed to the Walter Mitty's that train just because they think they are bad. I have been attacked by gun, knife, beer bottle, pool cue wiedling assholes more times than I care to remember. I have also been stabbed twice. No amount of dedicated training changes the fact that if you're teaching a student horseshit, 20 years of dedicated, consistant training will produce a student that is very, very good at horseshit. Ever heard the saying "You can't polish a turd"? Years of traing don't change the fact that if what you're learning doesn't work from day one, it isn't going to work after 2 years, or 5, or 25. Of course all styles don't suck. I certainly never said they did. I will say that traditional martial arts mostly (read that as 99.99% of the time) suck for anything approaching real combat. That is a simple fact. Keep in mind that it really did take me YEARS to figure this out. Ask yourself this: Why would I try to convince someone of that fact? I don't own a school. Obviously I'm not trying to gather students. I don't have a book, video, or system to sell. I have no vested interest in convincing anyone of anything, except that I would like people to save their time and money, and it may just save their life to realize that traditional martial arts are not going to save your ass on the street. Actually, by giving you a false sense of security, in many ways they are worse than no training at all.

V42
03-17-2004, 11:23 PM
Problem with a lot of martial arts is that certain techniques (like a lot of the blocks and block and counter drills) work great in a drilling situation - that is when you know what attack is coming in advance and are standing there ready to counter. But it is different in real life when you don't know what technique will be coming, when it will be coming, and if it will be coming, and it may be mixed in with a variety of other techniques. So what works great in a drill often falls on its face in reality.

The blocks that I have seen work in real life are generally when the hands are already up and the arm moves just a bit to block an oncoming strike.

Sometimes attacks practiced against are done in an unrealistic way that supports the defense being used. Example-knife stabs done like a karate reverse punch where the knife is rigidly thrust forward in a straight line and left locked out, whereas in real life knives are often moving erratically and ballistically.

In a situation where practice attacks are done in a way that lends itself to the defense are known as pillar assaults - assaults executed in a way to make the defense work. How often does this occur in real life?

Also, a lot of the sparring can be stylistic and not representative of real life fights. Example - certain styles spar at distances where they use mostly kicks and are prohibited from using strikes to the head. In real life most attackers are going to try to get very close to you and punch you in the head. This can be a problem if you are used to not having hand strikes go toward your head and used to people who stand off and launch kicks.

Not saying that you cannot get some useful fighting skills from some martial arts, only that a lot of time is wasted on things that are not applicable. Some things like basic striking can be good. You can get good at striking hard and coordinated and used to being in a situation where someon

Anyway, it's late . . .

michael
03-18-2004, 08:40 AM
Hmm... Vaughn, Michael, you know we're going to have Gabe with us in a couple of weeks. Maybe we could steer the class a little or hit Gabe up for some pointers, depending on the class composition and assuming there's time. :)


I've already thought of that. I believe Gabe incorporates some of his H2H stuff into the CRG class. It would be nice to have a little training "on the side" if his schedule permits.

Al Lipscomb
03-23-2004, 07:09 AM
A lot of interesting posts and some good opinions. I think there are some things that I need to say.

1) In a traditional school there is a lot of bowing and polite, military like activity. That is an important part of what you need to learn. While many in the "warrior creed" may not like it, there are times you need to know when to keep your mouth shut or just say "yes sir". There are also times when you need to do what you are told when you are told to do it.

2) While there are some schools that only teach the "sport" aspect, there is still a reason to attend if nothing else is available. That is the physical conditioning that will help you keep going when combat passes the 30 second mark.

3) After many years of TKD I wonder what schools people are looking at to think it would not be effective (considering #2 above). Most of the basic kicks and PUNCHES are just right for a combative situation. The fighting stance is just about perfect for defensive situations. Most schools also teach a good bit of joint locking that makes up the Hapkido style of Korean combat arts.

todd_xxxx
03-23-2004, 10:12 AM
"1) In a traditional school there is a lot of bowing and polite, military like activity. That is an important part of what you need to learn. While many in the "warrior creed" may not like it, there are times you need to know when to keep your mouth shut or just say "yes sir". There are also times when you need to do what you are told when you are told to do it."

My parents taught me when to keep my mouth shut and say "Yes sir". I don't need to pay some self-professed fighting guru $50 a month for 10 years to do it. I also can't think of a self-defense situation where I need to do what I'm told to do.

"2) While there are some schools that only teach the "sport" aspect, there is still a reason to attend if nothing else is available. That is the physical conditioning that will help you keep going when combat passes the 30 second mark."

A 150 lb Olympic weight set will set you back $100. If you don't like to lift weights, a good book on body-weight only training is about $20. Throw in a set of running shoes or a jump rope and you're set. No bowing and scraping, train when you want at any hour of the day or night, and do a workout you like, not one that is dictated to you.

"3) After many years of TKD I wonder what schools people are looking at to think it would not be effective (considering #2 above). Most of the basic kicks and PUNCHES are just right for a combative situation. The fighting stance is just about perfect for defensive situations. Most schools also teach a good bit of joint locking that makes up the Hapkido style of Korean combat arts."

I studied TKD to black belt level at a very highly regarded school. I didn't learn a single thing that I consider worthwhile unless you count the lesson in what DOESN'T work in real life. The only good kicking techniques are low kicks and kicks to a downed opponent. Both illegal in TKD, and so are mentioned, but never trained. Punches to the head are illegal, and the TKD method of punching is so bad, and so impossible to pull off, that even TKD people don't use them when they spar. As far as the fighting stance statement, I don't even know how to respond. The stance you'll be in when the shit hits the fan is probably a normal standing posture, and I definitely don't believe in defense. Joint locking is absolutely impossible in a one on one situation unless the person is already partially beaten by blows, at which time its easier to continue hitting or run. What are you going to do even if you could get a joint lock? Talk the bad guy into seeing the error in his ways? You either have to destroy the joint or let go of him, in which case you better be prepared for a second assualt. Not a viable option in my mind.

V42
03-23-2004, 01:15 PM
In Tae Kwon do sparring you typically stay in kicking range and are prohibited from punching to the head. How is that reflective of real life?

You get accustomed to not worrying about getting punched to the head because it is illegal. How is that reflective of real life?

Charles Rives
03-24-2004, 02:36 AM
I don't study TKD but a friend who does told me that he was taught that TKD has dramatically changed over the last 50-60 years in that:
1) Those powerful kicks used to be aimed low but moved higher to become more flashy.
2) The fighting technique has slowly been pushed out by sporting techniques. And
3) The abundant commercial schools have (slowly, over decades) modified the technique to be more attractive (looking) to potential customers.

I grew up practicing traditional Japanese Jujitsu and later played sport Judo in college. I think TKD is sort of going through the same thing now that Judo went through in the late 1960's & early 1970's. The sport of Judo either saved or killed the art. Now the sport may just about be the only reason why Judo still lives but most Judo schools have lost the real fighting applications that the system's founder (Jigaro kano) developed and maybe perfected.

When it comes to comparing styles, Jigaro Kano did make a couple of statements to the American Press during one of his travels that seem very appropriate. These aren't direct quotes but they do carry the message:

Press: "Dr. Kano, if there is a fight between a boxer, a wrestler, and a Judo man, who will win?"

Kano: "Whoever successfully employs a technique first."

Press: "What is the secret of Judo?

Kano: "Never miss practice."

-Chuck

Cold War Scout
03-24-2004, 02:32 PM
To use the words of Kelly McCann: "fighting is 90% attitude and 10% technique. The man with the superior attitude will win most of the time." (or words to that effect).

Al Lipscomb
03-25-2004, 12:43 PM
V42: "In Tae Kwon do sparring you typically stay in kicking range and are prohibited from punching to the head. How is that reflective of real life?"

If all your instructor is teaching you is sparing techniques then you need to find a better school. See item #3 in my post.

Charles Rives: "I don't study TKD but a friend who does told me that he was taught that TKD has dramatically changed over the last 50-60 years in that:
1) Those powerful kicks used to be aimed low but moved higher to become more flashy.
2) The fighting technique has slowly been pushed out by sporting techniques. And
3) The abundant commercial schools have (slowly, over decades) modified the technique to be more attractive (looking) to potential customers."

That is pretty much the norm for martial arts that come to America. Someone figures out they can make a buck and then dumb it down (or remove the brutal aspects that wimps don't want their kids to learn).

The *actual* set of techniques is still valid, but what is being taught is not the authentic. For example even though TKD was "formalized" rather late in history, the techniques have been proven over a long period of time.

In my current school we have some great pictures of the D.K. Park throwing opponents onto a hard wood floor. No protective gear or mats. All targets were legal and you got hit hard in those days.

V42
03-25-2004, 11:06 PM
V42: "In Tae Kwon do sparring you typically stay in kicking range and are prohibited from punching to the head. How is that reflective of real life?"

If all your instructor is teaching you is sparing techniques then you need to find a better school. See item #3 in my post.


The problem is that you constantly spar using rules, movements and ranges that are not reflected on the street. Even if the instructor tells you that in the street to do ABC, by constantly training where an opponent is only allowed to kick your head and not allowed to punch it you are conditioning yourself to not punch the head and not to worry about protecting against punches to the head.

Same thing where you are fighting at long range where you are kicking your opponent and he is kicking you. You are maintaining that range by consent because you are fighting someone of a similar style and conditioning yourself to fight that way and fight against someone like that. It is a whole different story on the street when someone rushes in and grabs you, tackles you, or barrages you with punches from close range.

Charles Rives
03-26-2004, 02:06 AM
The sporting martial arts do provide one real benefit. Again, back to Jigaro Kano and Judo: in the late 1800's professor Kano realized that many systems of Jujitsu had very dangerous movements and techniques that prevented the practitioners of those arts from ever practicing full-power, full-speed, or with training partners who are actively trying to resist the techniques.

So, professor Kano devised a method of practicing that involved a full-power, full-speed sporting application of basic Jujitsu techniques. Thereafter, his students cleaned house in the no-holds-barred, toughman contests that were popular in Japan at that time. His students used fewer techniques that were less severe than their opponent's Jujitsu moves but used them with more committment, speed, and skill.

When looking at modern self-defense applications, its easy to draw a similar paralell. You can practice eye-gouging all day but you'll never have a chance to do it in training without either using very staged settings or risking injuring your training partners.

Chuck

Al Lipscomb
03-26-2004, 05:11 AM
V42:

That is why you have to have balance in the training. No system can allow unprotected punches to the head in training. Boxing teaches you to hide behind big gloves that are not there outside of the gym. So you have to practice some techniques in a way that will not kill your partner.

A lot of what "forms" (Kata, Pomse etc) teach is some of the moves that you are not going to be able to use on your training partners. A lot of it helps with physical conditioning. Most of it was not designed to to be first-choice combat moves.

You are also train with high kicks so that lower kicks are faster. They look flashy and in schools that are not promoting survival are not integrated properly.

The normal fighting stance is called the "natural stance" or "walking stance". It looks like you just stopped in mid-stride with the right leg back, the weight on the front foot and up on the ball of the back foot. The body is bladed with the arms up for cover. For kicking this allows fast back-leg action, for hands you have both a fast jab and a strong punch from the right arm (reverse if left handed).

The two most common kicks are a front "snap kick" that targets the groin or mid-section or a fast "45 degree roundhouse" that targets the lower ribs down to the knees.

Knees, elbows, palm strikes and head butts are all there as well. There are also plenty of joint locks to help disenguage someone who as grabbed you or for those times when you may need less force. There are also a few throws available.

I have to use my skills often enough in the real world and I guess I would just have to say that everything has worked fine when I have need it.

Charles:

We share a building with the St. Pete Judo club and those guys have some top end techniques. We rib each other a lot but both sides respect each other. If I was 20 years younger I would be at their classes as well. The head instructor is also a master at Jujitsu and a great teacher. Two of his senior students were Olympic team members and/or coaches (I don't remember who was what on that).

michael
03-26-2004, 01:14 PM
Judo is an excellent art if you can find an instructor who knows the atemi and not just the sporting aspects. I had one such instructor many years ago, and he absolutely awesome.

V42
03-26-2004, 07:08 PM
That is why you have to have balance in the training. No system can allow unprotected punches to the head in training. Boxing teaches you to hide behind big gloves that are not there outside of the gym. So you have to practice some techniques in a way that will not kill your partner.

I can accept that certain comprimises have to be made for safety. But adding training where people fight radically different from the way they do on the street teaches very bad habits that might get you hurt on the street.

You are not used to protecting your head or reacting to hand strikes to the head because you do not do it in training. But that is the number one strike you will encounter in the street.

You get used to staying in kicking range and dealing with an attacker who stays in kicking range to launch long range kicks. But most fights in the street take place in punching range or closer where the opponent isn't cooperative enough to maintain the range you are used to.


A lot of what "forms" (Kata, Pomse etc) teach is some of the moves that you are not going to be able to use on your training partners. A lot of it helps with physical conditioning. Most of it was not designed to to be first-choice combat moves.

Katas are dead patterns. Real fighting doesn't have a flow or have forms. Let's add unnatural movement and low stances in. When have you ever seen someone move in a real life fight the way they do in a kata?

Trying to learn fighting through Kata is like trying to learn cross country bike riding by practicing on a stationary bike. Dutch Martial arts instructor and bouncer Jon Bluming said in a recent learning channel special on the martial arts about Kata and why many instructors like it, "the clock ticks by and the dollars roll in."

V42
03-27-2004, 09:03 AM
http://www.kontraband.com/index.asp?p=movies.asp?ID=339

Eric
03-27-2004, 08:40 PM
In Tae Kwon do sparring you typically stay in kicking range and are prohibited from punching to the head. How is that reflective of real life?

You get accustomed to not worrying about getting punched to the head because it is illegal. How is that reflective of real life?

This is TKD's greatest marketing asset, but also its greatest pitfall. TKD is a sport form, not for combat. It has become even more show oriented over time. I've lost more and more respect for TKD and even some Shotokan based systems because of this limitation.

My Kempo school believes in working all 3 'zones' of combat (foot distance, hand distance, grappling distance). Our sparring doesn't allow joint kicks, soft tissue strikes (eye gouges, etc) for low belts. Low belts aren't allowed takedowns or sweeps, and low belt contact is light or non existent (beginners). No belts may use kill shots in sparring. And no one is allowed to use Chin-Na or nerve attacks in sparring under any circumstances.

High belts (brown or up) are allowed to trap, take down, sweep, etc. Joint locks with CONTROL, head shots, kidney shots, etc. are legal. Spine shots, joint kicks (roundhouse to the knee, etc) are allowed with NO contact. Otherwise, light/medium contact is allowed above the belt, but must be agreed to by all parties in advance.

Ground fighting (reaction to takedown) is allowed for black belt and up, and for brown belts assistant instructors. Its strickly a maturity thing.

We also do stick fighting (Pugil sticks & padded plastic escrima) with full sparring gear, mutiple attacker sparring (2 - 3) and armed fighting (rubber knives, etc) are also performed in sparring, but not as often as I'd like.

Eric
03-27-2004, 08:45 PM
I will say that traditional martial arts mostly (read that as 99.99% of the time) suck for anything approaching real combat. That is a simple fact. Keep in mind that it really did take me YEARS to figure this out. Ask yourself this: Why would I try to convince someone of that fact? I don't own a school. Obviously I'm not trying to gather students. I don't have a book, video, or system to sell. I have no vested interest in convincing anyone of anything, except that I would like people to save their time and money, and it may just save their life to realize that traditional martial arts are not going to save your ass on the street. Actually, by giving you a false sense of security, in many ways they are worse than no training at all.

I also have no 'vested interest', but I stand by what I've said so far.

I gues we'll just have to agree to disagree.

todd_xxxx
03-27-2004, 09:08 PM
I also have no 'vested interest', but I stand by what I've said so far.

I gues we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The problem with agreeing to disagree on this matter is not like agreeing to disagree if you like Fords and I like Chevys. This has a right and a wrong, and the wrong could very well get you or someone you love killed. If you have time, please, reread my post and tell me what part of it you disagree with.

Al Lipscomb
03-29-2004, 06:37 AM
Well in the few times I have had to use the skills I trained with they served me well. Having recently had to deal with an opponent almost 20 years younger, as almost as big as I am (6'2" and over 200 lbs) and up on something (he went to jail for possession) who had caused quite a problem at a rap concert (I was working not attending), I don't think I missed anything in my training.

Jinzai
04-15-2004, 08:02 AM
It depends on the style and the instructor. There's alot of garbage out there. TKD and Shotokan based systems are a waste of time. Too one dimensional. Take away a TKD fighter's legs and he's toast. Shotokan is too linear, and all the 'good stuff' was taken out long ago. Judo is a sport, not a fighting system.


Well, Eric, you started off on the right foot here, but I think you kind of contradicted yourself. Having been involved in trad. MA as well as more combative systems for my entire time in training, I have to agree with your first statement: It depends on the style and instructor.

I know TKD and Shotokan guys that could shred guys from other systems, and then again I know Kenpo guys that couldn't fight their way out of the proverbial paper sack.

Whatever system you study, if you want to learn how to defend yourself you need to distance yourself from the dogma, and focus on learning footwork, basic defense, distancing and timing, and learning how to chain basic strikes and low kicks into effective combinations.

Of course, all the HTH training in the world is not going to do you any good if you don't have any awareness or psychological skills. It's awful hard to regain equal footing once the bad guy gets the jump on you.

-Mike Massie

michael
04-20-2004, 09:31 AM
Combat Judo is great for SD. Unfortunately, there are not many people who have the knowledge anymore, because most have given way to the sporting aspects. I had one such instructor many years ago and he was simply awesome. We did the sport stuff too, but we would end every class with practical SD using Judo, including many atemi and moves like you describe to place the attacker on their head. Many throws can be easily altered to get this effect, and they work well if you have already softened them up with a few strikes or kicks. We also worked these types of throws in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

talon
05-10-2004, 11:41 AM
When I wanted to learn to shoot it was easy. I looked to the IDPA IPSC masters. As I begin to add tactics that looks pretty easy too. Several been there done that instructors out there. But when I want to add H2H it gets really really confusing. There is so much to choose from. There is so much marketing. A plethora of folks who can turn me in to a ninja warrior in a weekend.(yeah right) I still havent been able to come up with a way to choose a self defense system and establish the criteria for choosing an instructor. So I don't think I'm guilty of neglect but just the inablilty to come to grips with the problem.

Charles Rives
05-10-2004, 02:46 PM
I can think of two things that I think are more important than which particular set of skills a school/instructor teaches.

1) Can they teach? If the instructors method of instruction isn't good, then you might as well not go.

2) Do you enjoy it enough to keep going? Most people who take up HTH training or Martial Arts don't get good at it simply because they quit.

Those are the first criteria that I use when I shop for a new school. (I've moved a bunch. So, I've started in new schools and styles a bunch too.)

-Chuck

frederick gan
06-09-2004, 05:39 AM
If ever wander why you will see some sort of h2h combat courses advertised in all gun magazine you read every month?
When I was a teenage in my mind there was only martial arts, people told me that you dont need to learn martial arts if you live in the Philippines it is very easy to acquire a gun legally and illegally. But that did not convince me. Even when I bought my first gun a glock 27 when I was 26yrs. old. I still spent more of my time training h2h combat rather than shooting. Not saying that I dont like guns I love guns but like is so easy to shoot so accurate that every time I do point shooting (draw from concealment) all hits went to the chest at 7meters (I am not bragging about my skill, Im bragging about the superior design of my g27).
Well go back to the main point, experts would agree with me. Priority training in descending order:
1. Mind - Offensive Mind set will to win not just survive.
Include tactical knowledge, Jeff coopers
color coding, condition your mind...etc.
2. H2H combat- including strike- draw, knowing vital
target where to hit, get in shape believe it or not no matter how good it sounds on the advertisement about a fighting system that requires no athletic condition, strength, speed..etc. its all b.s. they charge you $1500 for 2 1/2 days and yet when you sign up with them they still have physical req. of 7 pull ups in 30secs, 50 push up in 60secs...etc. Get real its for your health too.
3. Buy a tactical folder if 4" is still illegal in your state or country buy a 3". It will be the best investment you ever made. Currently Im in Taiwan I carry a cold steel Schimitar 4" by the way it is illegal to possess firearm in Taiwan. In the Philippines I carry my G27 and a spyderco 3".
4.Shooting skills is my last priority since I find it easier to learn combat shooting as compare to h2H combat.
P.S. GABE learned various martial arts prior to his law enforcement career. His course is worth attending. You will learn the attributes and few decades worth of knowledge compressed in one seminar.
Gabe if I will be going the States I will definitely attend your class.


I am curious why this course is not offered more as it strikes me as a huge gap in may people's training.

I would think this would be a great one day course to offer either a day before or a day after a 2 day saturday and sunday class.

It seems that practical unarmed skills are a weak spot with many gun people. I think the one day course would be useful, combined with a suggestion of things to buy (like a spar pro or BOB dummy or a heavy bag) along with a suggested program of short but regular practice that people can do on their own after the class is over.

While it's not the same as going a few 3 minute rounds, if you spend about 5 minutes practicing a few simple strikes 2-3 times a week, you will start building muscle memory and the strikes will be second nature before too long.

frederick gan
06-09-2004, 06:03 AM
I also studied the Chines art for several years. kung fu in general is a fanny thing. Students I see either extreme good in fighting or extremely stupid that they get their ass kick by thug who practice boxing for a couple of months. The sifu sometimes withheld the practical application for some stupid reason thats why kung fu in my opinion is the most misunderstood art. They think kung fu is for exhibition remember Blood Sport ? the kung fu guys lose the game on the 1st round.
Any way base on my experience kung fu practitioner have the best balance. Their movements are so unpredictable to the opponent, good instructors teach dim-mak (pressure points). best of all once you reach a certain level you apply the techniques with dead acuracy ingrain in the (subconcious mind).
Like I said in another post the glock are so easy to shoot you can have all center hits any time of the day at self defense distance Im not bragging about myself my bragging about my g27. Invest more time in h2h training and increase your chances of survival.
For self defense alone so far I believe in 2days training is a good start but you should be over confident that 2 days training can prepare you for any thing.

But for Gabe I never seen him teach or fight but based on his credentials I believe I will recommend Gabe's class . Best teacher is experience working as a law enforcer and being a martial artist I believe he will filter out all those unnecessary moves and focus on what matters most.
Some useless self defense classes, anything that focus only on grappling, tae kwon do(sorry guys any art that put emphasis on leg or hand alone is an art or sport) and aikido(sorry guys looks good in Seagals movies only). UFC base fighting system (always assume that there is only one bad guy you have to deal with.) Any knife fighting course that emphasize too much on reverse grip and convince the students that the reverse grip is for advance fighter.

I mean no offense to anyone but I have to agree with Todd here. There is a difference between "art" and combat and you should choose the path that is appropriate for you based upon your overall goals. There is nothing wrong with studying an "art" and there are some arts that actually do emphasize self-defense. However, if the goal is learning hardcore survival skills in a shor period of time than I would suggest looking for a class that places emphasis on those skills rather than on a specific "art" or style. Real self-defense can generally be taught in a few hours and by 2 days of hardcore training you should be able to successfully protect yourself. If it takes longer than that I would suggest looking elsewhere.

Steve

Gabriel Suarez
06-10-2004, 06:36 AM
Guys, a perspective. What do you look for in a gun system.

1). Reality focus, not a shooting range focus. (For fighting not sport)
2). Focus on mission not on the tool chosen for the mission (fight focus not gun focus)
3). Instructor is mission oriented (there to teach you not to teach you how cool he is).
4). Short learning time, and retainable (it doesn't take you a membership and 20 weeklong sessions before you can use it).
5). It makes sense without mumbo-jumbo

The same characteristics are what you need in a combatives program.

First thing is get in shape. You can't win a fight if you are not physically strong with a strong heart. If you can't get in shape for health reasons, then rely on guns and knives.

Second, find a trainer with the above points. Don't worry about tradition or culture or sport. Not that there is anything wrong with that but if your focus is combat skills you don't need any of that.

Third, train widely. That is learn to hit, learn weapons defenses, learn to grapple, as well as cutting and shooting.

Its a never ending path, the path of a warrior. You never arrive but it sure is an interesting ride.

double down
06-10-2004, 03:24 PM
First thing is get in shape. You can't win a fight if you are not physically strong with a strong heart.

Five pages in this thread and unless I overlooked it, Gabe was the only one to point out the single most important thing about hand to hand fighting.

The second most important thing in H2H is seeing your opponent. I cannot stress how many people I see in various martial arts that have their eyes closed when attacking or being attacked. In the real world this will get you killed.

Third you need incredible balance. Balance allows power, speed, and movement. It allows you to control the situation, to attack or counter attack.

From here it's a fluid situation trying to plan something is worthless. People always give you an opening. The best fighters in the world leave openings. See it, attack it, end it.

Understand movement, angles, and human anatomy. Don't waste shots because you waste energy and don't take chances because it will leave you open.

Always keep in mind most people are better off not engaging in H2H, many people who think they are prepared better re-think and come to their senses.

sgtagee555
06-17-2004, 01:22 AM
To use the words of Kelly McCann: "fighting is 90% attitude and 10% technique. The man with the superior attitude will win most of the time." (or words to that effect).

The founder of Aikido said almost the same thing 70 years ago. He basically said will beats skill.

Kelly McCann has some great books and tapes out. They are great references.

JPA