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View Full Version : Lets talk PDWs an LASERs



EDELWEISS
02-20-2016, 05:08 PM
*******Lets not limit the discussion to only the Glock PDW. Id like to open this idea to PDWs in general******

OK first yes I know all the Hollywood stuff about lasers is BS, and yes I know a RDS is faster than a laser; buuuuut Im finding myself drawn to the idea of a laser on a PDW. Again not as a replacement for sights or even a replacement for a RMR but as an addition.

Since we're talking about PDWs I think we can assume distances from the far end of room distance to 100m. I also think we can assume you and maybe your partner will be the only ones on your side, so the argument about "laser confusion" can be countered by "Im the only guy aiming at him" and separate (recognizable) beam colours

I seeing them useful for longer shots when movement and cover put you in an awkward position and maybe some other times that testing will discover.

Thoughts?

BeardedPelican
02-20-2016, 05:14 PM
*PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW*

In all seriousness though I've never really been sold on the concept of lasers, every single time I see someone using one they are hunting for the laser rather than using their sights, seems to be a solution looking for a problem in most cases.

EDELWEISS
02-20-2016, 05:31 PM
*PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW*

In all seriousness though I've never really been sold on the concept of lasers, every single time I see someone using one they are hunting for the laser rather than using their sights, seems to be a solution looking for a problem in most cases.

Yeah I know; but the voices keep telling me to try it.

Im not generally a laser fan. I have two, one came on a Glock that was too good of a deal to pass on and the other is a dual beam(visible/IR) unit I have on a rifle set up for Night Vision. The Glock is in the safe, the rifle is waiting for a "bump in the night". The laser on the Glock is a Lasermax unit that wraps around the grip--Im not sure if the ENDO with fit with the laser in place. IF it fits it might be a good test unit. The dual beam unit is kinda bigger than Id want on a MP5K size weapon but maaaaaabe OK on a full size MP5-maybe??? Im thinking there are better units?

DopeForWind
02-20-2016, 07:38 PM
I've run a buddie's during CQB force on force on a pistol. I loved it but I received several comments from the other team about it making it easy to spot me when they saw the laser hovering on the wall next to them. In a self defense situation where it is one on one at close distances it might be helpful though, especially in low light if you don't have night sights or an RMR. Sadly it's useless IMO for proactive/offensive work of any kind. It is after all speed SURPRISE and violence of action, and the loss of surprise was not worth it. I will say this though, in police work the red laser hovering on someone's chest does tend to have a certain subduing effect I would imagine.

EDELWEISS
02-21-2016, 07:31 AM
I've run a buddie's during CQB force on force on a pistol. I loved it but I received several comments from the other team about it making it easy to spot me when they saw the laser hovering on the wall next to them......

So maybe constant on isnt good (just like flashlights); but again just like lights, maybe they have a useful place and we just have to find the right tactic.

A second thought would be that in FoF training, the bad guys KNOW youre coming and they are hunting YOU just as bad as you are hunting them. In a Active Shooter (at least the initial stages) the bad guys are more than likely to just be searching for victims. Will they see a dancing light among all the other "lights" in a mall, movie, church? Again Im wondering if its just not having found the right tactics and equipment?

Rex G
02-21-2016, 08:15 AM
(snipped)
I will say this though, in police work the red laser hovering on someone's chest does tend to have a certain subduing effect I would imagine.

In nearly 32 years of big-city night-shift peace officering, I have never seen bad guys looking down at their chests to check for laser dots. Perhaps, one could advise a bad guy to look at his chest for a laser dot, but gunfights are not normally the time and place for polite conversation.

EDELWEISS
02-21-2016, 08:18 AM
In nearly 32 years if big-city night-shift peace officering, I have never seen seen bad guys looking down at their chests to check for laser dots.

....but then how many PDs use lasers? Back in the 70s Baltimore City played around with the American 180 SMG and laser combo
47133
that big thing hanging from the barrel is the laser

Rex G
02-21-2016, 08:24 AM
....but then how many PDs use lasers? Back in the 70s Baltimore City played around with the American 180 SMG and laser combo
47133
that big thing hanging from the barrel is the laser

Well, we have had Tasers with lasers for a number of years.

Rex G
02-21-2016, 08:55 AM
On the larger subject of lasers on PDWs, I am open-minded. I can understand having to fire from an awkward position, being a time/place for a laser. I have usually thought of lasers as being more applicable to a long gun* or AR15 pistol than a typical handgun, preferably a long-proven, quite tough model of laser, but a PDW is an in-between weapon, so perhaps it would be a logical application.

A laser dot for threat management/negotiation, Hollywood-style, however, seems a bit of a stretch. If I want to let someone know I am not likely to miss him, a shotgun muzzle, and a resolute facial facial expression, seems to be a true persuader.

*Maybe I was over-thinking, and being a bit OCD about the thought of a laser being knocked off-zero, but in the past, I had thought about mounting lasers on opposite surfaces of an AR15 fore-grip, sighted so that the POI would be between the two dots. This would also provide reasonably certain, instant confirmation, that neither laser had shifted zero.

ReynCon
02-24-2016, 12:39 PM
Really hard to beat the Surefire x400 with a dev gru switch (Glock PDW) or tape switch (any other system) for me. Of course you can also get an IR version for the NOD work. Just my .02.

TheGrayMan214
02-24-2016, 01:50 PM
Now that SureFire has IR compatible X400's and Steiner has the DBAL-PL, you can fairly easily setup a weapon like the Glock PDW just like a NOD setup carbine.

For slightly larger PDW's, Steiner has the CQBL or the various DBAL's out there. The CQBL actually was designed for use on a PDW.

The only uses for a laser (to me) are as a tertiary sighting system (if my usual sighting arrangements are not usable for some reason), for use with NOD, or for marking in a team environment.

Yondering
02-24-2016, 04:09 PM
*Maybe I was over-thinking, and being a bit OCD about the thought of a laser being knocked off-zero, but in the past, I had thought about mounting lasers on opposite surfaces of an AR15 fore-grip, sighted so that the POI would be between the two dots. This would also provide reasonably certain, instant confirmation, that neither laser had shifted zero.

You need one underneath the handguard too, then you'd have that cool 3-dot aiming point like in the movie Predator.

:woot:

Gabriel Suarez
02-24-2016, 04:52 PM
LASERS - maybe a new article?

During the day, lasers suck
At night they help...but they let others know your whereabouts...some may not want that.
Only a pussy would surrender because of a laser...if your enemy is a pussy, a laser may come in useful...for intimidating him.
Shooting moving targets in the dark with a light and a laser is cool.
Shooting moving targets in the dark with a set of PVS-14s and an IR light laser is beyond cool.
Shooting moving targets with either white light or with NVGs with a laser...from a moving vehicle is really beyond cool.

I zero mine to coincide at ten yards. I think we did a thread on that some years ago.

gssc
02-25-2016, 10:50 AM
I zero mine to coincide at ten yards. I think we did a thread on that some years ago.

Intersting. I'm running a parallel zero which give me a hold on mouth to shoot in eyes.

EDELWEISS
02-25-2016, 03:44 PM
LASERS - maybe a new article?

During the day, lasers suck
At night they help...but they let others know your whereabouts...some may not want that.
Only a pussy would surrender because of a laser...if your enemy is a pussy, a laser may come in useful...for intimidating him.
Shooting moving targets in the dark with a light and a laser is cool.
Shooting moving targets in the dark with a set of PVS-14s and an IR light laser is beyond cool.
Shooting moving targets with either white light or with NVGs with a laser...from a moving vehicle is really beyond cool.

I zero mine to coincide at ten yards. I think we did a thread on that some years ago.

Boss, I think the last time we hashed this out was more in reference to night ops and handguns with NVGs. As moderation does not seem to be one of my best traits, I ran with the idea and added a rifle mounted laser to a AR I set up as a dedicated "Night Fighter". It seems to be a good system, unfortunately I dont have the facilities to completely "test" it in anything like even semi real night conditions due to range limitations--but I have "lazed" the neighborhood and Im comfortable as I can be with the system.

In THIS case I was thinking about Lasers and PDWs for closer (inside 100 yards) and faster moving situations, like a Active Shooter; again not so much as a primary aiming device but an extra option. My initial thoughts were for AR type PDWs, so Im not sure how this would "translate" to the Glock PDW, Ive seen some pretty small laser units for handguns; but I have no intimate knowledge of their quality.

Sooooo yeah when you can find the time, an article would be great

searcher 45
02-25-2016, 04:25 PM
I would think a PCC or PDW with a green laser would work well out to about a 100yds. in low light settings.

Chainsaw76
02-27-2016, 09:11 PM
I can see how a green laser in a target rich urban environment might come in handy, especially if one couldn't hide from one's opponents. An urban carbine/PDW sorta thing.

jim