Courting from Potential Employers

[WinstonSmith]

In my particular field, I get about 2-3 legit recruiter leads per week (probably another 3-5 that are a little off target). It's a great spot to be in.

I have one company in particular really bringing the pressure, but they are a company that I never really thought I'd work for. Now, they're "courting" me (for the lack of a better word). Personal calls from the Sr VP, telling me no hurdles are too big for them to jump, etc.

Here's today's top question in my mind: How much (what percentage) of a pay increase would you have to be offered before working for the type of company that you previously told yourself you would not work for (not for moral reasons, but more for ... let's call it "aesthetic" ... reasons)?

[JeffC]

This has nothing to do with money. This has only to do with your happiness.

Jeff-ism: "The quality of a shit sandwich is dependent upon how much bread is wrapped around it."

If there are no moral objections then this is entirely a lifestyle decision.

-jeff

[WinstonSmith]

There will likely be a lot of bread (and dough, and benjamins) wrapped around this sandwich. Like maybe a whopping 50% pay increase-- does that sound good enough?

I'd also have a very unique problem to solve and be put in charge of starting a brand new "program" including recruiting, hiring, and firing a team of top talent also at higher than average prices. It's just ... I either wouldn't want to tell anyone where I work, or I'd have to qualify it with "... but I do cool stuff there and get paid big bucks ..."

The upside is after 2-3 years, I could go anywhere I want in my field.

Seems like a pirate would board this ship. I think. Maybe.

[Travlin]

Winston, you strike me as a man at the top of his field and that field is where corps need to pull the top. It seems with your name recognition in the field if the "aesthetics" are green enough then make the hurdle high and pull a period high dollar, for a while.

When the view gets too bad, move on.

[Dorkface]

Interesting...

I am trying to think of what company you wouldnt want to admit working for... thats all i really want to know lol.

[JeffC]

I quit chasing other people's dream a long time ago. If this furthers your future then it is reasonable to pursue. If others benefit more than you, or if you are investing in a future that you are likely not to participate in, then don't do it.

Market or program development can be fun and rewarding or pure torture. If the money is right, look for contractual control over the results they need. Make sure you have the appropriate autonomy and resources as part of the written deal. Interview your direct supervisor to make sure there is a fit.

Remember, when they are courting you, the balance of power is on your side. Once you join, that balance shifts unless it is contarctually memorialized.

-jeff

[Ragsbo]

Get everything in writing and have a lawyer make sure it is air tight as possible before doing anything! Promises tend to disappear when it is time to pay up!

[Travlin]

Also an at will employment state can put a real spin on how binding any paper is.

[WinstonSmith]

Winston, you strike me as a man at the top of his field and that field is where corps need to pull the top. It seems with your name recognition in the field if the "aesthetics" are green enough then make the hurdle high and pull a period high dollar, for a while.

When the view gets too bad, move on.

So, it's not so much "name" recognition. Suffice it to say they've been a customer and they're so satisfied with results they don't want to share me.

It's one of those rare times where I am now INSIDE the good ol boys network. New position, new job requisition, preferred candidate ... In HR terms.

[WinstonSmith]

Interesting...

I am trying to think of what company you wouldnt want to admit working for... thats all i really want to know lol.

Well, DF, I wouldn't admit it here for opsec reasons anyway, so no guessing games. :tapedshut: Maybe one of these days we will be at the same time/place, say at an SI training.

[WinstonSmith]

I quit chasing other people's dream a long time ago. If this furthers your future then it is reasonable to pursue. If others benefit more than you, or if you are investing in a future that you are likely not to participate in, then don't do it.

Market or program development can be fun and rewarding or pure torture. If the money is right, look for contractual control over the results they need. Make sure you have the appropriate autonomy and resources as part of the written deal. Interview your direct supervisor to make sure there is a fit.

Remember, when they are courting you, the balance of power is on your side. Once you join, that balance shifts unless it is contarctually memorialized.

-jeff

All good advice. I guess I'm not terribly concerned that I couldn't find a job at my CURRENT rate if I wanted out. The problem is, by then I will have adjusted to the higher rate lifestyle. :wink:

[Dorkface]

Well, DF, I wouldn't admit it here for opsec reasons anyway, so no guessing games. :tapedshut: Maybe one of these days we will be at the same time/place, say at an SI training.
Oh i know you wouldn't post it out in the open lol.

[WinstonSmith]

Oh i know you wouldn't post it out in the open lol.

I know you know that. But what you'd do next is ask is it X company, or is it in Y industry? Then we would start narrowing it down and then they'd find my WT handle, read what I post, and rescind the offer. :wink:

[Puddle]

I quit chasing other people's dream a long time ago. If this furthers your future then it is reasonable to pursue. If others benefit more than you, or if you are investing in a future that you are likely not to participate in, then don't do it.

Market or program development can be fun and rewarding or pure torture. If the money is right, look for contractual control over the results they need. Make sure you have the appropriate autonomy and resources as part of the written deal. Interview your direct supervisor to make sure there is a fit.

Remember, when they are courting you, the balance of power is on your side. Once you join, that balance shifts unless it is contarctually memorialized.

-jeff

If you don't know where you're going, then anywhere will do.

How does it fit your plan? Sounding a bit like a force fit to me...

[WOLF220]

2-3 years goes by fast. If you can make 50% more for a couple 3 years and have options after that, whether to stay or go and at least be making what you were before you went with them, that puts you in a real good position, I'd say go for it!

[Dorkface]

I know you know that. But what you'd do next is ask is it X company, or is it in Y industry? Then we would start narrowing it down and then they'd find my WT handle, read what I post, and rescind the offer. :wink:

Lol not on an open forum or anything indexable lol.

[R. Lafayette]

Well, DF, I wouldn't admit it here for opsec reasons anyway, so no guessing games. :tapedshut: Maybe one of these days we will be at the same time/place, say at an SI training.

NAMBLA? :smile:

[Dorkface]

I think I just figured it out lol.

Also I would love to run into you at training. Figuratively and literally lol.

[WinstonSmith]

I think I just figured it out lol.

Also I would love to run into you at training. Figuratively and literally lol.

The figurative and literal just made me choke on my dinner. :)

[WinstonSmith]

I'm leaning towards just doing this. I was on the fence this morning, then had two more "courting" calls today. They are literally making this hard for me to complain about anything but the "aesthetics".

[WinstonSmith]

By the way, thanks for tolerating my blather on here (thinking out loud with good camaraderie). At any point, just tell me to "shut up and take the job."

[JeffC]

By the way, thanks for tolerating my blather on here (thinking out loud with good camaraderie). At any point, just tell me to "shut up and take the job."
STFU and take the job :-)

-jeff

[WinstonSmith]

STFU and take the job :-)

-jeff

Thanks, Jeff. Knew I could count on you. :wink:

[JeffC]

Thanks, Jeff. Knew I could count on you. :wink:
Yes, you can. In more than one way.

-jeff

[Dorkface]

Dude if its who I think it is just do it lol. Aesthetics be damned. Their money is green lol.

[Mr. Anthony]

Take it. If there aren't weird morality issues or whatever, take that money. Who cares if you feel like you need to "defend" who you work for? You don't. I'm all for being aloof if you HAVE to talk about it with someone.

"I'm really good at what I do, and they recognize that and pay me accordingly." If you're nice (I'm often not nice). The end.

And yeah, get everything hammered out contractually first.

[DutchV]

Fifty percent is not the kind of raise that comes around very often. Take the job, but ask for a little more to cover the "aesthetics".

[WinstonSmith]

Fifty percent is not the kind of raise that comes around very often. Take the job, but ask for a little more to cover the "aesthetics".

That's what I am thinking.

I just did the math - it's actually about a 67% increase, if they put their offer in writing as is.

Another perk: I don't have to relocate, and I'm still working from home as will the guys I get to hire in.

[Mr. Anthony]

That's what I am thinking.

I just did the math - it's actually about a 67% increase, if they put their offer in writing as is.

Another perk: I don't have to relocate, and I'm still working from home as will the guys I get to hire in.


What's the holdup? I'd take a job with a company named Puppy Murder, Inc. if they were going to give me ludicrous pay increases and perks. If you like everything but the "aesthetics", big deal. You'll learn to deal with those just fine.

[WinstonSmith]

What's the holdup? I'd take a job with a company named Puppy Murder, Inc. if they were going to give me ludicrous pay increases and perks. If you like everything but the "aesthetics", big deal. You'll learn to deal with those just fine.

How did you guess the employer?!?!?!

Yeah, my hesitation seems stupid doesn't it?

[Paper Shredder]

OP,

Take this for what it's worth:

2-3 years for a 67% comp increase is nothing to sneeze at even for superficial reasons.

If you will be challenged and fostered in your career like you need and want, the company name on the resume doesn't matter but the quantifiable things you've accomplished there. The big upside is not the comp bump now, but being in an accelerated trajectory after the fact.

I'm probably younger than you but I remember the first large bump I got going to a new company. It has set me up for considerably larger increases and roles since then. 5-7% pedestrian increases on a larger base certainly starts to snow ball as the dollars are bigger! Also better bonus potential being on a higher base as well.

The only thing that would be a challenge is whether you bank the increase and keep your lifestyle or you get that McMansion and new Escalade. I tend to keep my lifestyle somewhat reasonable and bank a large reserve. I call that my "f*ck you" money. I vowed from my early 20s to never be trapped to a job over money ever again.

Good luck bro. Go get it, be a pirate, buy some sweet toys and level up. 67% bump is definitely a lifestyle changer. All the cliches are true. Money does not buy happiness, but it does afford comfort and spontaneity.

[Dorkface]

How did you guess the employer?!?!?!

Yeah, my hesitation seems stupid doesn't it?


Nah I understand it lol.

So you basically have an industry leader throwing money at you begging you to come design and implement an enterprise wide system with a position that has to be upper tier. After which you can take that experience to pretty much anywhere across a couple of different major markets and a few different industries. Its the kind of career defining thing that doesn't come around often.


All you have to do is say yes and then not F#$k it up lol.

[ZeroTA]

I know absolutely nothing about your field and couldn't even begin to guess who that employer might be. And for a 67% increase I couldn't care less either. Regardless who this employer is, someone's gonna do what it is they're calling you about; might as well take their money.




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[jmoore]

It's just ... I either wouldn't want to tell anyone where I work, or I'd have to qualify it with "... but I do cool stuff there and get paid big bucks ..."

There is no shame in working for Victoria's Secret - IF the bucks are right!

john

[BeardedPelican]

There is no shame in working for Victoria's Secret - IF the bucks are right!

john

Well.... as long as it isn't the dude's line of clothing. Victor's Secret....

[Ragsbo]

Sounds like you know you should do it but just can't say so! Get the deal in writing, have it checked out, then jump on it like a bum on a bologna sandwich.

(plus can I say I hate you!!!!! with out pissing you off?? Been job hunting for 2 years and would love an offer like this. I know it ain't coming for me so I don't want to see you blow it!)

[Danneskjold]

Go for it. The world needs more wealthy people who like guns and knives.

[Bill the Vet]

Go for it. The world needs more wealthy people who like guns and knives.
Yeah,this!(Get it in writing!!!!)

[CaneCorso]

Get a contract with an exit parachute, not an "at will" agreement if they are so keen at having you. Look for equity (options or RSUs) as well as the pay increase.

Don't play highest bidder with your current employer.

[apamburn]

Counter offer that you'll take the job with a 75% increase.

Take what you can, give nothing back!!!
:pirateship:

[BSBG]

It's not Walmart is it?

Seriously, follow the money! Not sure of your age or career goals, but more in the bank keeps your options open down the line. One of these days I will quit working for the man and become a "consultant ".

[WinstonSmith]

Get a contract with an exit parachute, not an "at will" agreement if they are so keen at having you. Look for equity (options or RSUs) as well as the pay increase.

Don't play highest bidder with your current employer.

Stock options are very much included and not part of my 67% calculation.

I'm not too concerned about exit clauses because of the nature of my field-- more openings than qualified people. Plus, I already have a relationship with these people as their service provider. They just want to bring me in house and have me build a team doing the same kind of work.

[WinstonSmith]

Sounds like you know you should do it but just can't say so! Get the deal in writing, have it checked out, then jump on it like a bum on a bologna sandwich.

(plus can I say I hate you!!!!! with out pissing you off?? Been job hunting for 2 years and would love an offer like this. I know it ain't coming for me so I don't want to see you blow it!)

It's all about right place, right time, and in demand skills. I've said before that I'm just grateful that God and my family pushed me in this certain direction. The rest has been easy.

[Zed Stewart]

There will likely be a lot of bread (and dough, and benjamins) wrapped around this sandwich. Like maybe a whopping 50% pay increase-- does that sound good enough?

I'd also have a very unique problem to solve and be put in charge of starting a brand new "program" including recruiting, hiring, and firing a team of top talent also at higher than average prices. It's just ... I either wouldn't want to tell anyone where I work, or I'd have to qualify it with "... but I do cool stuff there and get paid big bucks ..."

The upside is after 2-3 years, I could go anywhere I want in my field.

Seems like a pirate would board this ship. I think. Maybe.

Can your reputation hold up? I've been in many similar jobs that paid way less. It sounds like it would be a "please come do this for us then when your done we will fire you and somebody else will take the credit" job.
I've straightened out a few ranches and this was always the end result. When you get it fixed they say "Anybody could have done it. Your not special and I don't like it when you say my ideas won't work." Even though those ideas are the one that wrecked the place.

Be careful.

[DutchV]

If they're making offers, don't forget to ask for a little more. Say ten percent. You won't get the chance later and now is when they're most likely to agree to it. It's your retirement you'll be padding.


As for the name, that's pretty easy. "I work at Walmart" sounds like a stockboy. "I'm Corporate Architect for IT Infrastructure & Security at WalMart" sounds great, and most people's eyes have glazed over before you even got to the end.

[Rick Klopp]

If you take the job and have to hire subordinates with that type of pay increase....well, you have my number.

[WinstonSmith]

"Hi, my name is Winston Smith and I run a team of gold extraction engineers."

Where do you work?

(Voice trails off into a mumble) "At the city dump ..."

[IANative]

"At the city dump ..."

As opposed to "Refuse Engineer" or "Garbologist." It's all in how you sell yourself.

[TyGuy04]

Ask someone who has a vested interest in your success. We all may mean well, but none will be directly impacted by your success or failure

[docholliday13]

You said that your a little hesitant about taking the job because it wouldn't be something that you would want to share with others. (correct me if I am wrong) Okay, so if that's the case do people's opinions matter that much to you? At the end of the day other's opinions are simply THEIRS, not YOURS. I know there is probably more than just that but that's about all I can see from what you have said so far. The second thing to ask yourself is that you said it would be a 2-3 year gig. Looking long term you said it opens up a lot of doors but are those doors that you want to go through later on? And would you be able to start lining a job up for yourself to transition into in 2-3 years? And lastly does this job line up with your life purpose, morales, passions, etc? Ultimately it's a decision that you are going to have to make! If you are a praying man you know what to do as well.

[WinstonSmith]

Signed the offer letter. 265% compensation increase. Equity in annual installments roughly equivalent to my current comfortable annual salary.

Praise God, hard work, and working smart (in other words mostly the former).

And a little praise to capitalism.

[Mr. Anthony]

Nice!

[DutchV]

Holy crap! No way you could've turned that down. Congratulations!

[Dorkface]

Nicely done dude!

[IANative]

Signed the offer letter. 265% compensation increase. Equity in annual installments roughly equivalent to my current comfortable annual salary.

Praise God, hard work, and working smart (in other words mostly the former).

And a little praise to capitalism.


Nicely done, brother.

[Togar]

Signed the offer letter. 265% compensation increase. Equity in annual installments roughly equivalent to my current comfortable annual salary.

Praise God, hard work, and working smart (in other words mostly the former).

And a little praise to capitalism.

Well Done!!! Now really unleash the pirate... Arrrrr

[Mike O'Leary]

Congratulations Winston, good luck with the new job!

[ToddC]

Congratulations!

[WinstonSmith]

Thanks, fellas!


Well Done!!! Now really unleash the pirate... Arrrrr

I know! I'm sure my taxes will be more complicated this year, so I'm looking into a new CPA and financial planner.

[BillyOblivion]

In my particular field, I get about 2-3 legit recruiter leads per week (probably another 3-5 that are a little off target). It's a great spot to be in.

I get one or two jobs a week that I'd consider if I wasn't telecommuting about 75 to 85% of the time. Really hard to spend an extra 90 minutes a day driving somewhere to sit in a cube and do exactly what I'm doing now.

However, I'm not quite in the "Being aggressively headhunted" league. Mostly my job is still being seen as a commodity, which is why most of IT/Software sucks so bad.


I have one company in particular really bringing the pressure, but they are a company that I never really thought I'd work for. Now, they're "courting" me (for the lack of a better word). Personal calls from the Sr VP, telling me no hurdles are too big for them to jump, etc.
Here's today's top question in my mind: How much (what percentage) of a pay increase would you have to be offered before working for the type of company that you previously told yourself you would not work for (not for moral reasons, but more for ... let's call it "aesthetic" ... reasons)?

There are some places I just *won't* work--I won't live in California or most of New England for example. Any place there that wants me to work for them will arrange for telecommute and fly me in.

Other than that, I can make good *enough* money (at this point in my life) in the kind of companies I would prefer to work in that, well, basically I'd start the discussing at: double my hourly, include good benefits AND assign an assistant to handle the parts of working for that kind of company that I don't want to deal with.

Now, so it's clear on *my* side, I don't like working for big organizations. This limits my growth and jobs, but it also limits a LOT of the bullshit in my life and leaves me a much less angry person to be around. Dealing with corporate empire building and cult of personality politics is simply not my thing. It's a waste of time and resources that could be better spent building awesome products, tools and services. Plus in big organizations you get the "You're the Backup Interface Operator" and that's what you do. I don't work on assembly lines. Not what I do. Not the value I bring.

So I don't work for IBM. I don't (in fact will not) work for Raytheon (inside the US that is).

What would it take? For some place like IBM it would take a position that *really* looked intersting, something that made me say "That's F*g cool. I want to be a part of that". That goes a long way in my world. I'd also have a conversation with the recruiting party about getting language into the contract that excused me from faddish and stupid requirements like Raytheon's Six Sigma training (one reason I won't work for them) or any sort of bullshit social engineering. You're hunting me because of my white european protestant approach to work, which I'm not going to let go of, so it wastes your money and pisses me off.

Oh, and a 50% increase in pay and benefits *as a starting point*. Also telecommuting when reasonable (depending on the job).

[tact999]

Congratulations Sir!

[Greg Nichols]

Signed the offer letter. 265% compensation increase. Equity in annual installments roughly equivalent to my current comfortable annual salary.

Praise God, hard work, and working smart (in other words mostly the former).

And a little praise to capitalism.

isn't it strange how "lucky" you get the harder you work?

[Ted Demosthenes]

Well done Win!

Is this a project- based contract with a deadline or a renewable/extendable one based on performance or effectiveness?

[WinstonSmith]

Well done Win!

Is this a project- based contract with a deadline or a renewable/extendable one based on performance or effectiveness?

Permanent position, wrote the job description myself based on a proposal I was asked to write for the whole program. Proposal is based on phases that last multiple years, starting with 8-10 direct reports I get to start recruiting now, with the last phase having a hierarchy of leaders under this new role and an overall team of probably 30-40. This is a long haul, not a short sprint.

[WinstonSmith]

isn't it strange how "lucky" you get the harder you work?

Yes it is!

In more than a manner of speaking I owe some gratitude to this place (WT) for encouraging the drive for self prosperity, inexcusable capitalism, and just overall pursuit of excellence.

Greg, I specifically recall you once saying something like "Show me who your friends are, what books you read, who you listen to, and I'll show you who you'll become."

[Greg Nichols]

Yes it is!

In more than a manner of speaking I owe some gratitude to this place (WT) for encouraging the drive for self prosperity, inexcusable capitalism, and just overall pursuit of excellence.

Greg, I specifically recall you once saying something like "Show me who your friends are, what books you read, who you listen to, and I'll show you who you'll become."

And how you spend your free time