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View Full Version : ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHER



Gabriel Suarez
02-08-2016, 02:56 PM
46962

Greg Nichols
02-08-2016, 02:58 PM
Mag release and added manual safety

chad newton
02-08-2016, 03:26 PM
I see that rear tab for pulling the slide too. Definitely a step closer to perfection over ww gear.

TheGrayMan214
02-08-2016, 03:47 PM
Nice looking piece... Form following function.

Shotgunwillie
02-08-2016, 04:26 PM
Tell us more boss!

grizzlyblake
02-08-2016, 04:39 PM
Well then. The external safety actually brings this into the realm of the perfect backpack PDW.

chad newton
02-08-2016, 04:45 PM
Well then. The external safety actually brings this into the realm of the perfect backpack PDW.
Or underarm retained (single point) without holster.

chad newton
02-08-2016, 04:48 PM
I remember when people would talk sh!t about my 19s extended mag release... Oh how things have changed...

Dark One
02-08-2016, 05:17 PM
Oh man....... Lucked into G17, ordering another PDW kit, now this?? So going to spend too much money this year!!! Thanks Gabe!!

LawDog
02-08-2016, 05:41 PM
I never paid attention to the addition of manual safeties before. I always rolled my eyes at the possibility and dismissed them as (a) junk, (b) unnecessary, and (c) a potential hazard. In this role, they might make sense. But it is still an oddity. The cop who picks up the gun is likely to be confused by it. He won't understand why he can't pull the slide back to unload the gun.

C.J. Singleton
02-08-2016, 05:50 PM
In the PDW role the manual safety makes sense I've always considered it an abortion on a carry gun however this is more likely to be carried around than it is to sit in a holster and you are more likely to have to handle some sort of administrative task while using it thus increasing the possibility of something getting into the trigger guard when you don't want it to.

Gabriel Suarez
02-08-2016, 05:54 PM
The cop who picks up the gun is likely to be confused by it. He won't understand why he can't pull the slide back to unload the gun.

Not our problem. More info on this to follow. I am of the mind of a dedicated PDW and not a quikie-changie EDC pistol thing. On a carry "holster gun" meh...take it or leave it. On a dedicated PDW, this makes it carryable and exceeds the entire "slap a zack on it" idea. Same for the mag release button. For the dedicated PDW it is perfect.

Brent Yamamoto
02-08-2016, 06:52 PM
On a carry "holster gun" meh...take it or leave it. On a dedicated PDW, this makes it carryable and exceeds the entire "slap a zack on it" idea. Same for the mag release button. For the dedicated PDW it is perfect.

Totally agree...dedicated PDW. I may get an extra for quickie changie but dedicated is my first choice.

Even with the G34/35 extended mag release, it's not the best for ejecting mags. Doable but not comfortable. Mostly I'm just using my support hand but firing hand is better.

DogDoc
02-08-2016, 07:00 PM
I had one that looked similar on a Glock years ago and removed it. That one would not have been adequate for me to trust it in a backpack. I'd prefer a Zack/NPE. Is this an OST design Gabe or the same thing that's been around? Does it seem firm enough that you'd trust it kicking around in a backpack?

Doc

Dark One
02-08-2016, 07:02 PM
Being that I'm just getting into a dedicated Glock as a PDW is this something I can do or is this a gunsmith mod? I am thinking doing this for both a G19 and my soon to be had G17. Still having an EDC G19 as well..... Never enough tools!!!

Brent Yamamoto
02-08-2016, 07:04 PM
IMHO - if the PDW is not in your immediate control, you leave it unchambered. Whether there's a safety or not.

If it's in the hand, being carried like a rifle, then it's chambered on safe.

If you have a gun fight with it and need to stash it, then you can put on safe and stow immediately...and unchamber when time allows.

This is no different than I'd treat a rifle...except that it's very rare I'm carrying a rifle around in a bag.

Dorkface
02-08-2016, 07:40 PM
I wonder how many people on the internet are going to loose their minds and start screaming that Gabe is now advocating manual safeties on Glocks... lol.

WinstonSmith
02-08-2016, 07:42 PM
The other issue (not saying this is a deal breaker, but I will likely shy away from it) is that it will confuse the manual of arms a bit. One of the best parts of a Glock is the "point and click" mentality, i.e. no manual safeties to disengage. This will require training and may result in training scars (reaching for the safety on an EDC Glock that doesn't have one).

Housertl
02-09-2016, 04:09 AM
The other issue (not saying this is a deal breaker, but I will likely shy away from it) is that it will confuse the manual of arms a bit. One of the best parts of a Glock is the "point and click" mentality, i.e. no manual safeties to disengage. This will require training and may result in training scars (reaching for the safety on an EDC Glock that doesn't have one).
That being said, this is a proactive tool, like a rifle. We don't want a manual safety on a fighting pistol because we are most likely to use it in a reactive situation, where our focus is hits on target like 5 seconds ago. This makes the manual of arms process the same as any other rifle; on target, off safety.

Gabriel Suarez
02-09-2016, 05:29 AM
I wonder how many people on the internet are going to loose their minds and start screaming that Gabe is now advocating manual safeties on Glocks... lol.


I hope so. The more those gun fags whine the more money I make.

Gabriel Suarez
02-09-2016, 05:38 AM
So some points:

1). This is not a new item. It is called a Cominolli Safety. It has been around for a long time but until recently I found no need for it. We bought a dozen kits and I am testing them thoroughly for a longer more detailed write up. Thusfar they work fantastic.

2). For a HOLSTER PISTOL it is not necessary...but this concept is NOT a holster pistol. I think what some guys have not let go of is that this is not a handgun any longer...it is an SMG/Carbine.

3). I find the "zack hanging off the gun" a difficult and somewhat "ghetto" solution. I do not advocate that. But neither do I advocate running a carbine or SMG with no safety at all. One "safes" a Glock by holstering it. You can't do that with this PDW. As well...the requirement to "just put a zack on it" or "put it back in the bag" is actually not as practical as some think.

4). The guys that are nervous about AIWB with a 3.5# trigger might benefit from this as well. But as I said...not such a big deal on a holster weapon. Anything that lives outside a holster benefits from this.

5). The argument against the Browning/1911 safety is that some guys missed it in FOF. But I suspect that was exacerbated by the grip safety more than the thumb safety, since I saw similar stuff live fire with the XD series. Truly if one grips the pistol high, the safety gets disengaged by the mere act of gripping. But if grip safety is not deactivated it is a moot point.

Not saying this is good or this is bad, only that it is my best solution thusfar to the PDW situation. More data to follow.

Yondering
02-09-2016, 10:15 AM
One "safes" a Glock by holstering it. You can't do that with this PDW.

Why not?

My thought is to just use a holster as the safety if and when I need it. That holster doesn't have to be attached to anything. However, if it's appropriate, I found just sticking the whole thing in my AIWB holster works too. Yeah, you won't want to fight with it that way, it will flop around, but it does make it "safe" and frees up both hands as a temporary measure.

To be fair, I am, and will continue to, use this as an addition to my carry gun, not as another gun to pack around. I'm not going to add one of these safeties to my carry gun (which I realize you are not advocating).

I'm not crapping on your idea, but don't think it fits my intended role for this setup. YMMV

Gabriel Suarez
02-09-2016, 10:21 AM
Mine


Why not?

Because I think hanging a piece of kydex off a weapon and removing it/replacing it as a safety is not something I think is optimal nor something I want to do. Again, I am looking at this from a dedicated pdw system and not something I am going to add to my carry gun. So if my plan is to "stick it in my holster", I have to do something to the gun already in my holster.

Would you carry your M4 with an M4 Zack trigger holster? Not me.

My thought is to just use a holster as the safety if and when I need it. That holster doesn't have to be attached to anything. However, if it's appropriate, I found just sticking the whole thing in my AIWB holster works too. Yeah, you won't want to fight with it that way, it will flop around, but it does make it "safe" and frees up both hands as a temporary measure.

To be fair, I am, and will continue to, use this as an addition to my carry gun, not as another gun to pack around. I'm not going to add one of these safeties to my carry gun (which I realize you are not advocating).

I'm not crapping on your idea, but don't think it fits my intended role for this setup. YMMV

No worries...at some point the PDW concept will develop further into two areas I suspect. One the dedicated PDW weapon. The other the "add this to my weapon so I can use it better". Everyone will pick what works for them I suspect.

EDELWEISS
02-09-2016, 10:34 AM
I do get the concept and I do agree that a safety on a Glock PDW is a good idea; but Im not convinced this safety is the best idea. My concern is that it changes the Glock manual of arms just enuf' to cause problems for both the Glock as a handgun and as a PDW....

I see merit in using a holster (perhaps even just one of the soft "sticky" pocket holsters) inside your bag of choice OR a Zack/NPE triggerguard cover OR........ one of the safety blocks that fit behind the trigger and "POP" out. My thought is the little block could even be dummy corded to the ENDO. My thought is that when Im shopping the gun is on safe in the bag (maybe that means chamber empty or maybe a trigger cover or block if loaded) and when I go full Warrior/Hunter the safeeeeee is my finger attached to my brain.

Bearbait in NM
02-09-2016, 11:04 AM
I think exploring the possibilities of a different manual of arms is really needed. As Brent noted earlier on, an empty chamber is one solution. This really struck me when I had mine out for the first time, this last weekend. As it was new to me, I was doing things, starting with an unloaded weapon. Just the act of installing the endo onto the gun requires a modification to your strong hand grip, as the top of the endo has to slide up the back of the gun, into locked position. Once you remove your palm from the back of the grip, you now have to consider just how to grip everything, and whether it might be better to have an empty chamber, for this step. It did not occur to me at home, while fitting and testing, as no ammo was present. Once at my shooting hole, with live ammo, installing and removing the endo had me pondering the manual of arms more realistically. Especially in light of the function of adding the endo to a holstered weapon, which would certainly have a round chambered.

Craig

Dorkface
02-09-2016, 11:32 AM
I am assuming that even with the glock safety switch the gun is going to be carried with an empty chamber during the daily routine. The safety would only come into play after the pdw is pulled, a round chambered and then only be used in an administrative mode after all the killing is done. Just like any other rifle.

Si saftey switch doctrine has never been about finger f@#king the safety to death during a fight. I dont see that changing with the glock pdw.

Yondering
02-09-2016, 11:43 AM
Mine

That makes sense, and I believe you're right about it branching off into two separate roles.

As a side note to that, a Sig, CZ, or even a double stack 1911 may make more sense for this application as a dedicated PDW. We aren't there yet with mounting systems of course, but no reason we couldn't go there as things progress. The advantages of better triggers and already existing manual safeties could be real benefits in that role.

That sorta dovetails in to the thread John Chambers started about proactive pistols too. Combine a really accurate niche gun with a PDW kit...

Gabriel Suarez
02-09-2016, 12:11 PM
1). Manual of arms changes. I don't see it. Unless you use the Ayoob beercan grip on your pistol. I shoot and teach thumb high so the switch is right there. No changes there. That is why the magazine button as well. That way one can use the primary hand rather than need to use the support hand.

2). The whole "put it in the bag" thing is cool, but if you don't have your bag with you still...:dunno:

3). Sig, CZ, DS 45 would be fine....if that is your EDC. One of the primary advantages of this is that the weapon uses the same magazines as your CCW EDC. Give up that option and you lose some of the benefits of this concept.

4). Another benefit to the dedicated PDW is a self contained "everything there" package. No need for a Zack dangling off the...somewhere...or a bag to put it in.

Keep an open mind to this stuff and do not dismiss things without consideration.

Gabriel Suarez
02-09-2016, 12:13 PM
Just like any other rifle. .

And that is where most guys get hung up. The instant the "brace" is added, it is a different weapon platform. Forcing "pistol" thinking into this is like forcing rifle thinking onto a Glock 43.

Gabriel Suarez
02-09-2016, 12:14 PM
My concern is that it changes the Glock manual of arms just enuf' to cause problems for both the Glock as a handgun and as a PDW....
.

I'm not seeing the conflict.

Brent Yamamoto
02-09-2016, 12:34 PM
I don't think the manual of arms is a significant change. But even if it's that different for you, so what?

We are capable of learning new things.

Popshot
02-09-2016, 05:37 PM
Keep an open mind to this stuff and do not dismiss things without consideration.

This is great advice, since the journey on this concept is moving quite fast - sometimes a new idea every day or two.

DaveJames
02-09-2016, 05:59 PM
Gabe, consider the left handed shooter, with the safety does it lay forward enough to operate with a high trigger finger, or is it off hand work

WOLF220
02-09-2016, 06:10 PM
I also don't see how the manual of arms is so different. We all shoot AR's right? It's the same movements. I think some are overthinking this.

WinstonSmith
02-09-2016, 11:39 PM
I'm going to watch with an open mind as this develops, but the brace idea is clearly in the "something I can add last second to make the pistol better" category for me. For example, if I'm traveling, in a hotel, and hadji wants another Mumbai at that same place. Or if I happen to be near the car, and that's all I have "extra" stashed onboard. Otherwise, it's just the RMR Glock as a regular pistol in reactive mode.

For any other time/place where I have the opportunity to grab something, I'll likely grab a bullpup, an AR (especially .300 BLK), or worse case an AK.

As of right now (again, I'm watching with an open mind), I don't see the situation in which I would choose a dedicated PDW setup over a rifle, so by extension I don't see a reason for the manual safety mod.

Gabriel Suarez
02-10-2016, 05:36 AM
As of right now (again, I'm watching with an open mind), I don't see the situation in which I would choose a dedicated PDW setup over a rifle, so by extension I don't see a reason for the manual safety mod.

Well....I'll scratch you off the interest list then.

I think we have established the merits of an SMG over a handgun, and the merits of pistol ammo over rifle ammo in certain situations. This application being a "best option" in terms of ammo and parts and magazine commonality.

But hell...I could be totally wrong about everything and then it might be true that all we really need is a 1911 and a scout rifle. :dunno:

WinstonSmith
02-10-2016, 07:02 AM
Well....I'll scratch you off the interest list then.

Just for the safety mod. I already bought one PDW kit. Given some more time with it, I'll probably buy a couple more.