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Gabriel Suarez
02-07-2016, 07:04 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/24/35/10/243510e5c1a3247577e3ba9150273236.jpg

http://historicarmscorp.com/biz/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Mauser-C96-2.jpg

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xfp1/t51.2885-15/e15/10983583_835034353231432_1966044739_n.jpg

http://www.heliograph.com/trmgs/trmgs4/mauser.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PmlQN6Y.jpg

Gabriel Suarez
02-07-2016, 07:06 PM
46949

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JnL0zSNiWbE/Tzn5d72sCdI/AAAAAAAAAOA/TcVRjuk7fRo/s1600/InglisBrowningHighPower.jpg

http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ryan_1522.jpg

Gabriel Suarez
02-07-2016, 07:11 PM
http://41.media.tumblr.com/d9a5499c3435eacaac0c31957677aaa2/tumblr_o0eccgFVXS1rwjpnyo3_1280.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/71efd46a5fd4784c56378fe16388b38d/tumblr_o0eccgFVXS1rwjpnyo4_1280.jpg

http://imgur.com/yqjob.jpg

DogDoc
02-07-2016, 07:53 PM
As Mark Twain said "The ancients have stolen all of our best ideas".

Doc

chad newton
02-07-2016, 08:07 PM
The more things change, the more they stay the same.... I bet all those people in the photos wish they had a red dot.

Pict
02-08-2016, 04:16 AM
Very cool set of photos. My grandfather fought in WW1. At the end the Germans were wandering around armed looking for American units in order to surrender. The French treated them like scum for destroying France but the Americans gave better treatment. My grandfather (Rail mounted artillery unit) wound up manning an MG pointed down the road covering German units as they arrived to surrender and disarm. They had to strip off the hardware and stack it up.

At one point a unit of about 100 men showed up and their officer started an arguement. An American officer rode up on a horse, got into a shouting match with the German officer, who thought he was in a position to dictate terms. The American eased the tension by shooting him in the head with a .45 and it started raining rifles.

My grandfather watched another officer throw something odd onto the pile. Once he was relieved he dug it out and it was an artillery model Luger with snail drum and paddle stock. He later sold it for $50.00 on the boat home...

46953

The Artillery Luger was issued to officers in charge of MG's so they could cover a gun if it went down. With the long barrel, tangent sight, and 32 round magazine, it was designed primarily as a PDW. I finally got the chance to borrow one from a friend and spend a day at the strip mine a few years ago. The same collector had a Mauser C96 with wooden holster stock. The Luger handled well, but I did better with the Mauser without the stock.

The RMR makes this concept come alive IMO. With the historical guns the gains from added points of contact were offset by holding the sights too close to the eye for precision shooting. I did better with the C96 Mauser at full extension and braced on a berm. I'm sure the full auto version would have benefitted from the stock, but those old wooden holster stocks were heavy and ungainly.

Maybe like the RMR vastly improves the sighting issue, modern materials like kydex could create a useful holster stock. From an early 20th century marketing aspect, the stocked pistol seemed like a good idea for a while and this concept was sold to a great many armies. The rapid development of the SMG blew it out of the water as an idea before its time. With the advent of the RMR this concept deserves a second look.

Gabriel Suarez
02-08-2016, 05:38 AM
Could be five years from now it will be the next "big thing" and everyone will say it was THEY who invented it.

chad newton
02-08-2016, 06:30 AM
Could be five years from now it will be the next "big thing" and everyone will say it was THEY who invented it.
I can see that, the guys in the construction materials industry used to say the drywall market was "the whores market". I'm starting to wonder if the gun buisness is about the same.

Gabriel Suarez
02-08-2016, 06:33 AM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/14/d3/e4/14d3e4345db07b7fb54e6a04ed688f65.jpg

http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/GlockBrace_7.jpg

John Chambers
02-08-2016, 06:48 AM
Let's not forget the most important ancestor! :)

TheGrayMan214
02-08-2016, 11:34 AM
The 1855 Pistol-Carbine went along the same concept... even fairly close to a repeater with the Maynard tape primer (think a roll of paper caps like we all probably "shot" a gazillion of as kids).

The stocked pistol has been well respected as a PDW for quite some time. Yes, there are ballistic advantages to rifle cartridges and even some PDW cartridges (4.6x30 and 5.7x28 are far better penetrators then 9x19 NATO, I can't speak for their terminals as I just don't know) but for low-visibility and/or no-visibility operations like surveillance or "enhanced CCW" this is perfect. I can see a package that small (especially with the Folder as Brent posted) being useful to those originally in mind when the PDW concept came to be.

Popshot
02-08-2016, 01:30 PM
From The Hateful Eight:


https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M0aa2b535cd3186543c9b08fbfa85b4a4o0&w=300&h=150&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0

Gabriel Suarez
02-08-2016, 06:01 PM
http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/41318-2/zett_C96_5387.jpg

Gabriel Suarez
02-08-2016, 06:03 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f0/bc/97/f0bc97dcc89a1120537b7ba9b1769bdb.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/09/50/8b/09508b69beed452b2e8e8e0a57372ad8.jpg

Gabriel Suarez
02-08-2016, 06:07 PM
http://i.imgur.com/A854FA1.jpg

http://www.zib-militaria.de/WebRoot/Store8/Shops/61431412/48B2/58EB/779A/FEBB/78FE/C0A8/28BD/81C3/image024.jpg

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/226524-1/Postkort2http://multeweb.com/images/Mauser%20C96%20-.jpg

gssc
02-08-2016, 07:13 PM
The civilian PDW usage - I'm sold. But why are these military guys running around in full kit but opting for a pistol? Why did it fall it out use in the European militaries and never really get picked up by the US?

TheGrayMan214
02-08-2016, 07:18 PM
http://i.imgur.com/A854FA1.jpg

http://www.zib-militaria.de/WebRoot/Store8/Shops/61431412/48B2/58EB/779A/FEBB/78FE/C0A8/28BD/81C3/image024.jpg

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/226524-1/Postkort2http://multeweb.com/images/Mauser%20C96%20-.jpg
3rd photo

Is that a C96 Schnellfeuer?

And that ringmount of C96's looks laughable now but to a canvas, wire, and wood aircraft it probably would've done quite a number.

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

C.J. Singleton
02-08-2016, 07:48 PM
The civilian PDW usage - I'm sold. But why are these military guys running around in full kit but opting for a pistol? Why did it fall it out use in the European militaries and never really get picked up by the US?

it's before the invention of a practical SMG in this time period you had 32 ACP pistols, Lugers and the Broomhandle mauser other than that you had a full sized bolt action rifles not the best thing for fighting in the trenches of WW1. The first dedicated SMGs didn't come along until 1917 1918 and even then they used the luger snail drum. What lead to the fall of the stocked pistol was the advent of more practical dedicated sub machine guns and the discovery that they could be made cheaper than a pistol such as the Mauser which was a very complex expensive weapon to make this was also before the invention of the STG 44 the first practical issued assault rifle really this is what was needed from the get go and every military was attempting to press a submachine gun into this role when really something small that was more effective than a pistol out to 50 yards is all that was needed.

On the stechkin automatic pistol I read an article by Marko Vorobiev (spetnaz sniper during the russian afghan war) he had an SVD and on a couple deployments a stechkin pistol with the stock back then the main russian pistol was an 8 shot makarov not the most effective weapon for clearing a building he loved the stocked stechkin because it was smaller than his SVD it was easier to shoot more accurately than the makarov and was minimal enough to carry it and ammunition in addition to his SVD you had a package a little bit bigger than a pistol but not as big and heavy as carrying an assault rifle. he would use it if he had to make entry to buildings.

searcher 45
02-08-2016, 09:24 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/14/d3/e4/14d3e4345db07b7fb54e6a04ed688f65.jpg

http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/GlockBrace_7.jpg

Just wait until someone comes up with a way to thin down the stock with out losing strength and make it fold at the Glock grip 180* making it more convenient to carry and holster with out loosing endurance and accuracy.

Pict
02-09-2016, 04:42 AM
The civilian PDW usage - I'm sold. But why are these military guys running around in full kit but opting for a pistol? Why did it fall it out use in the European militaries and never really get picked up by the US?

46966
The M1 Carbine doomed the stocked 1911 for mass issue. They did look into the concept.

C.J. gave a good answer, the SMG was less expensive and more effective in general use. Most early automatic pistols included an attachment point for a stock at some point in their development before the advent of the first generation SMG's. From my limited range time, one long day at the strip mine, with both an Artillery Luger and the stocked C96 Mauser, these early stocked pistols were clumsy to handle.

The Artillery Luger was the better handling of the two IMO. The hollow wooden holster stock of the C96 is very bulky and heavy. It is like shooting a handgun with a shoebox attached. The Luger felt more like a carbine, but also suffers from being tail heavy. That's no problem in the shoulder but it was an ungainly weapon to mount. Granted, that's a first impression and training issue as I was new to the gun.

46967

46968
Both Luger and Mauser offered their pistols as dedicated carbines. As military weapons, they suffered from being too expensive and too fragile for mass issue. Once the second generation SMG came on line the stocked pistol concept was done.

The legal issues of optimizing this system outside of the NFA restricts the available options. The Endo/RMR eliminates the main two objections I had based on my experience with the classic stocked pistols. They were unweildy and the standard pistol sights sucked when held close to the eye. The RMR Glock without a stock is easily capable of 100 meter shots and the time has come to re-examine the stocked pistol PDW concept. The stocked pistol fell from favor because they didn't have the technology to fix it's shortcomings. THEY'RE FIXED. The non-NFA Endo/Glock is a great starting point. I'd like to see where this concept goes as an SBR in the "unlimited class".

EDELWEISS
02-09-2016, 07:51 AM
I think the Stocked Pistol is a GREAT idea for a a civilian PDW and even better as a Non NFA device in the form of the Glock/ENDO Combination; but lets not for get it was lousy as a military option 100 years ago. Perhaps(?) there is a role for them now in the military but Im dubious with the current options, especially with the current Micro SMG options---but thats where things really start to blurrrrr. Where do Stocked Pistols STOP and Micro SMGs start???? I DO think there could be some advances especially in what would be NFA designs (because of an actual affixed stock).

The military needs/use aside, its the civilian use that concerns us - and - this is where the Stocked (or not quite stocked) Pistol excels. An actual SMG or semi auto clone might be better but is weight is often a issue that finds it being left behind, when the Glock/ENDO is more easily "carried". Hence the weapon you have beats the shite out of the one in your trunk..... Suddenly going to the mall or daily carry to work etc with a PDW is tolerable for "just in case insurance".

Remember way back in the late 1980s when the PDW concept evolved it was meant to be issued to NON - Combat troops who traditionally were encumbered by rifles as they "worked" their job (truck driver, engineer, cook, admin, etc) as a bridge between the pistol which was lacking when attacked and a rifle which may have ended up leaning against a tree when needed..... So how does that help us in the civilian world--simple For daily use a PDW is fine but if you know youre going into bad places where harsh words will be the least of your worries--BRING A FIGHTING WEAPON

fish78
02-09-2016, 07:55 AM
The only reason stocked handguns went out of favor was government regulation. The idea was and is sound for certain applications.

Sam Spade
02-09-2016, 08:31 AM
O
The only reason stocked handguns went out of favor was government regulation. The idea was and is sound for certain applications.
Military, not subject to such regulation, dumped the stocked pistol as well.

Gabriel Suarez
02-09-2016, 08:54 AM
O
Military, not subject to such regulation, dumped the stocked pistol as well.

Because they had trie submachineguns and not the same needs that we find for ouraelves today.

Gabriel Suarez
02-09-2016, 08:56 AM
The entire NFA of 1934 was due to the proliferation of SMGs in the hands of bad guys.

Stocked pistols and SMGs went that way at the same time. And once assault rifles became prolific...the SMG faded as well. But although some weapons do more things well...not all perform well in the narrow niches.

EDELWEISS
02-09-2016, 09:39 AM
Because they had true sub machine guns and not the same needs that we find for ourselves today.
YES Spot On! I would not choose to take a Stocked Pistol to WAR; but I would gladly carry one daily around town....

Redneck Zen
02-09-2016, 06:54 PM
Let's not forget the most important ancestor! :)

Indeed!

46972
46973

EDELWEISS
02-10-2016, 06:22 AM
46973

Damn that finger is in deeeeeep. I hope one of them enjoys it......

Redneck Zen
02-10-2016, 05:32 PM
Damn that finger is in deeeeeep. I hope one of them enjoys it......

Bwaaaahahahahahahaaaa!

As i remember, he was laying out a barrage in that scene. It's been a decade or two. The movie is Joe Kidd. It's got a lot of cool pieces in it, kinda like the Wild Bunch.