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View Full Version : ENDO/SHOCKWAVE mods--Are they OK?



EDELWEISS
02-04-2016, 10:34 AM
So this is what we KNOW....At this point the ENDO/Shockwave comb is OK on a Glock, as long as its not used as a shoulder stock. We think its a great PDW set up; but a few of us would like a folding version. We also know that hinges add weight AND length. We cant do too much about the weight but......can we shorten the length and still be blessed???

As I look at the Shockwave Blade, I see a "couple" inches (+/-) in front of the set screw that lokk like a good place for trimming some fat. LIkewise the buffer tube doesnt need an endcap for this project, couldnt that be shortened so the OAL was the same as before the "crew cut"?

Thoughts ???

Gabriel Suarez
02-04-2016, 10:39 AM
IMHO...adding a hinge is not a big deal although I have opted to not do so on mine. I think any mods to the Shockwave blade itself are skirting the edge of the grey area.

Bearbait in NM
02-04-2016, 11:04 AM
That question came up in my mind, while reviewing the threads on the folder, and looking at my blade. I managed to wreck the mounting stud on my first one, fitting it to my Gen 4 41. While awaiting arrival of my replacement for which something needs to be modded to fit my gun, I decided that on top of the issue of weakening the mounting stud on the endo, probably best to mod as little as possible on the components as shipped, in the event I find myself under a magnifying glass. If the DOJ really intends to enforce the BATFE interpretation of "making", we're all probably screwed unless SBRing, anyway.

Craig

gmorgan
02-04-2016, 11:18 AM
TFI

LawDog
02-04-2016, 12:11 PM
The risk depends on the purpose of the modification, not the extent of modification. If you slip a butt pad over the rear, that's a problem. The only reasonable purpose for doing so is to make the gun easier to shoulder, which is verboten. But that is the only thing that is verboten. So long as you are not making it more shoulderable, you've got free reign. If you want to add a spare magazine to it, I'd say go for it--so long as it doesn't diminish the device's intended purpose as an arm brace. A folder? Sure. Spare battery storage? Rock on. Just make sure that (a) you don't inhibit the device's intended purpose (arm brace), or (b) make it (obviously) easier to shoulder.

Brent Yamamoto
02-04-2016, 12:38 PM
Adding a hinge is really easy. And if you don't like it...it's easy to remove.

Personally I don't think the added length is a big issue. It doesn't make any difference to the sight picture of the dot, and actually helps for the BUIS. (I have some thoughts on BUIS which may belong in one of the other threads) I haven't found the length to be a big issue as it's still smaller than anything else I have. (Though in a vehicle shorter would be even better)

A bigger issue is balance but...I'm very nitpicky on these things and the more I've worked with it, it's really not an issue.

If balance/weight is really an issue for you, a good smith or machinist could skeletonize the buffer tube (I'm told pistol tubes are thicker than rifle tubes). Perhaps even the hinge. That's a little extreme...but some of us like extreme.

Yondering
02-04-2016, 01:08 PM
The risk depends on the purpose of the modification, not the extent of modification. If you slip a butt pad over the rear, that's a problem. The only reasonable purpose for doing so is to make the gun easier to shoulder, which is verboten. But that is the only thing that is verboten. So long as you are not making it more shoulderable, you've got free reign. If you want to add a spare magazine to it, I'd say go for it--so long as it doesn't diminish the device's intended purpose as an arm brace. A folder? Sure. Spare battery storage? Rock on. Just make sure that (a) you don't inhibit the device's intended purpose (arm brace), or (b) make it (obviously) easier to shoulder.

I'm not a lawyer, so I'm interested in your take on this, although you pretty much already answered it.

The Endo/Shockwave combination is functional as an arm brace on a Glock as it comes out of the box. I can demonstrate this on my setup easily, because it's short enough to fit the blade in the crook of my elbow. Making it longer seems like a grey area to me though; if it's too long to use as an arm brace, what is it? Does it then become a stock?

Or if a guy was really short... Logically it seems that shortening the brace for a guy with short arms would be legit.

LawDog
02-04-2016, 02:34 PM
I'm not a lawyer, so I'm interested in your take on this, although you pretty much already answered it.

The Endo/Shockwave combination is functional as an arm brace on a Glock as it comes out of the box. I can demonstrate this on my setup easily, because it's short enough to fit the blade in the crook of my elbow. Making it longer seems like a grey area to me though; if it's too long to use as an arm brace, what is it? Does it then become a stock?

Or if a guy was really short... Logically it seems that shortening the brace for a guy with short arms would be legit.All you need is the barest bit of support for your assertion that it is an arm brace. It could be too long or too short, and it really wouldn't matter. You don't even have to have it on the inside of your arm. You could place the brace on the outside of your forearm or--hell--on your upper arm with your arm bent. You could shoot at Full Homey (90-degree cant) with your eyes closed and balancing on one foot. And after missing the target with every shot at 3 yards, you could then say, "Yep, that there thigumajig sure does help brace the pistol." It's all BS. It's just a game. What you CANNOT do is stand in front of a camera or an ATF agent and shoulder the (non-taxed) brace as you would a stock. Nor should you explicitly admit to ever having done such a thing in an environment where those words could be used against you. It's not usually what you do that gets you in trouble; it's what you say. However you want the brace set up, long or short, won't matter. Just remember to explain that it is a brace, not a stock.

Brent Yamamoto
02-04-2016, 02:39 PM
Reminds me of "if it doesn't fit, you must acquit!"

Except in a good way.

WinstonSmith
02-04-2016, 07:08 PM
You could shoot at Full Homey (90-degree cant) with your eyes closed and balancing on one foot.

Love it...

Bearbait in NM
02-05-2016, 09:23 AM
Got my endo modded to my G4 41, last night. I finally had the chance to see how it could be used, as a brace. Even in the shortest tube position, the unit barely fits in the crook of my arm with a proper grip on the gun. But, I feel that is not any kind of valid shooting position. If you place it in the crook of your arm, with arm bent, the gun cannot be properly sighted. I feel that this is not a valid shooting technique, therefore demonstrating to "someone" that this is a valid criterion, well, it's not.

With the gun fully extended in your hand, the brace will align on the inside of your arms. Using your non-dominant hand, you can "pin" the brace against the inside of your dominant arm. Or elbow, or lower bicep. It definitely will steady your aim, and I could "demonstrate" this quite effectively.

The caveat that jumps out at me is the ATF letter has very specific language about "flexible stabilizing "fin" which the user rests against the inside of their forearm when in the firing position". As such, in testing my fit, I find that with the "fin" well back of the shortest position (or shortest position with a theoretical spacer/folder) I can still place the fingers of my support arm on the outside of my arm, with my thumb pinning the narrower part of the fin against my upper forearm. I place my support arm elbow tight to my body, and this shooting position is very stable. If I felt the need to shoot this thing at a public range, this is the technique I would use.

Craig

Yondering
02-05-2016, 09:37 AM
Got my endo modded to my G4 41, last night. I finally had the chance to see how it could be used, as a brace. Even in the shortest tube position, the unit barely fits in the crook of my arm with a proper grip on the gun. But, I feel that is not any kind of valid shooting position. If you place it in the crook of your arm, with arm bent, the gun cannot be properly sighted. I feel that this is not a valid shooting technique, therefore demonstrating to "someone" that this is a valid criterion, well, it's not.



Only because you haven't figured out how to do it. That doesn't work facing straight at the target. If you blade sideways, holding the gun across your body, it works fine and can easily be demonstrated. If you can't do it, but someone else can, does that mean it can't be done?

LawDog
02-05-2016, 10:10 AM
Got my endo modded to my G4 41, last night. I finally had the chance to see how it could be used, as a brace. Even in the shortest tube position, the unit barely fits in the crook of my arm with a proper grip on the gun. But, I feel that is not any kind of valid shooting position. If you place it in the crook of your arm, with arm bent, the gun cannot be properly sighted. I feel that this is not a valid shooting technique, therefore demonstrating to "someone" that this is a valid criterion, well, it's not.

With the gun fully extended in your hand, the brace will align on the inside of your arms. Using your non-dominant hand, you can "pin" the brace against the inside of your dominant arm. Or elbow, or lower bicep. It definitely will steady your aim, and I could "demonstrate" this quite effectively.

The caveat that jumps out at me is the ATF letter has very specific language about "flexible stabilizing "fin" which the user rests against the inside of their forearm when in the firing position". As such, in testing my fit, I find that with the "fin" well back of the shortest position (or shortest position with a theoretical spacer/folder) I can still place the fingers of my support arm on the outside of my arm, with my thumb pinning the narrower part of the fin against my upper forearm. I place my support arm elbow tight to my body, and this shooting position is very stable. If I felt the need to shoot this thing at a public range, this is the technique I would use.

CraigYou are focused way too much on trying to use this thing as a "stabilizing fin." Just do it. Even at the "public range," just do it. No one is watching you. Teenage girls are always convinced that everyone is checking them out. No one is checking you out. Don't be a teenage girl.

Bearbait in NM
02-05-2016, 11:04 AM
Yondering,

I guess I should have noted that I am a right hand shooter, but use my left eye for aiming. I was trying to address my thoughts on adding the folding mechanism or mods per the original post. Probably should have abstained from absolutes. Point taken.

Lawdog, pretty funny. I have enough hair on my back that no one has ever accused me of being or behaving like a teenage girl. But, I would be pretty surprised if shooting the braced Glock at a range did not get someone checking out the gun, and not me. I seem to recall that unique guns might draw some interest. It has been a long time since I shot at a public range, but I always did check out everyone, and every gun before stepping up to the line. Gals getting their first instruction from their SO with the 44 mag, or the guy with the tools on the bench tended to raise my eyebrows for a bit of observation, prior to bellying up to the line. I guess I am funny that way. Teenage girl, or situational awareness, I'll accept that.

I shoot in reasonably remote areas of national forest, or at our 400 acre ranch. I benefit from the "if a tree falls in the forest" rule.

Craig

Yondering
02-05-2016, 12:46 PM
+1 on the "tree falls in a forest" thing. But yeah, people do tend to check these out. I don't usually shoot with other people, but last time I did, I ran through a mag with the G19 PDW, and then looked around to find at least 10 guys staring at the gun. Got a bunch of questions, mostly along the lines of "is that legal" or "that's a felony!". Of course I was demonstrating the proper legal way to use it, which led to some discussion about defining "shoulder", as in, was bracing against your upper arm "shouldering", etc.

Bearbait, on the left/right eye thing - that will make a difference, but it's important to work on being able to shoot with either eye, just like we do with either hand. Everyone's different, but for me, switching eyes is a lot easier than switching hands.

Bearbait in NM
02-05-2016, 03:58 PM
Yondering,

Oh, I do. I switched over to both eyes open a very long time ago. Irons, dots, scopes everything. Different eyes, occluded, squinting......I am sure I do not practice enough dedicated with only either eye, but much like switching over to eating with my left hand at a crowded table, I recognize the importance of having some flexibility. It was kinda funny, last night while fiddling with my endo, I realized that oh, I get to use the "wrong" eye with this thing. I've got dots on my AR's, which I shoot right handed, so nothing new.

Not at all surprised about the crowd drawn to the endo. I won't have that problem, but as I do shoot with LEO at times, I am sure we will have conversations about the in's and out's of this design. The last time I had a Federal Agent "sneak" up on me in the National Forest, he made a comment about the ivory grips on my Colt 1911. Was he just admiring them, was he fishing to see if I had just bought them on Ebay from a fine gent from the Congo or East Africa? No idea, but a few minutes of conversation where I subtly mentioned having the letter to prove the ivory had been imported decades ago, and he understood that I was not a ding dong, and that I understood the law. It's not hard to have an adult conversation, if everyone is willing to behave like an adult.

Craig