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Gabriel Suarez
02-03-2016, 02:09 PM
WHICH ONE MAKES THE MOST SENSE??

https://www.kygunco.com/prodimages/52605-DEFAULT-L.jpg
http://www.impactguns.com/data/default/images/catalog/535/cz-scorp-pkg-3.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FGPAoFj.jpg

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ARGUE THE POINTS

CabbitOne
02-03-2016, 02:15 PM
WHICH ONE MAKES THE MOST SENSE??
#3 and #4


#3 could be used as a rifle - rifle caliber ballistic advantage

#4 could be used as a stocked pistol(stabilized pistol) - small light package using potentially your same carry magazines/ammo


#1(KRISS) and #2(Scorpion) are practically the size of #3(AR) without giving you anything that #4(Glock) doesn't do in a smaller lighter package, other than areas to hang stuff from and maybe a better place to put your support hand.



Having typed all of that out, I just noticed that #3 is an MPX and not an AR pistol like I thought.... changing my answer to strictly #4

Gabriel Suarez
02-03-2016, 02:17 PM
Actually #3 is a 9mm...as they are all.

CabbitOne
02-03-2016, 02:22 PM
Actually #3 is a 9mm...as they are all.
Darn, I thought I caught my mistake before anyone noticed....

So yeah, not the MPX...

CaptBeach
02-03-2016, 02:40 PM
3. As an AR pistol variant taking Glock mags vs the MPX...and 4 as a Glock progression.

CoryT
02-03-2016, 02:51 PM
The advantage to the Glock is it can also be your EDC pistol, then placed into the proactive role as required. A standard SMG will be SLIGHTLY more shootable, and will deliver a fraction more velocity, but it is dedicated to being what it is. It will be a bit neater to get lights, lasers, remote switches and the suppressor on the SMG. The stocked pistol cannot replace a carbine, but it can replace an SMG.

Since I have some 15+ SMG's, I don't need a stocked pistol. If I had no SMG or PCC, then the Glock system as shown makes a lot of sense, if you have such a need. Certainly simpler than buying another gun, you only have one system to support and train.

Greg Nichols
02-03-2016, 02:51 PM
The MPX is pretty sexy, same manual of arms (ish) as the AR platform, side folder to make a small package, 30 rounds. Downside is propriatary mags, second weapon system, heavier (shich could be a pro or con depending on your view).

Glock is a pistol variant, takes many manufacturers of mags (and same as EDC reloads, if using 17 mags in a 19, reliable, same basic manual of arms as your EDC, light and portable.

Kriss..... ugly as sin, no real advantage as I can see

CZ. About the same as the MPX with the additional down sides of new manual of arms and less useable brace contraption.

coastalcop
02-03-2016, 03:02 PM
For an everyday operational tool 2 or 3 (gonna get banged around on shit, treated poorly, and occasionally fallen on by large armored men)

For small scale surveillance teams, oh shit moments, house gun etc #4 without a doubt. Smaller, lighter, just as capable of most objectives , only downside is longterm operational survival by moose sized good guys (we WOULD break some component of it).

I should also add, that if owned by the agency 2 and 3 would have real stocks, if owned by the officer may still be a brace.

4 would probably be the "blade" either way, agency or personal. or no more than the "minimalist" type stock to keep weight down.


Number 1 would be. "Want" thing, not some thing I would ever use operationally.

Also see the bungee idea in the fork spoon thread

kinda of a variation on the knife/fork thread.

Yondering
02-03-2016, 03:52 PM
I'm not seeing any advantage to #3 compared to #4, except maybe as an impact weapon? In theory it might be more accurate at distance, but within the intended use, does it even matter? Plenty of 9mm SMGs out there prove that wrong anyway; the braced Glock is much more accurate than I expected.

I thought I wanted an MPX or CZ Scorpion, until the braced Glock came along; now I'm not sure what I'd do with the others.

chad newton
02-03-2016, 04:20 PM
It depends, right bro??? The one the makes the most since to most guys on the forum is Odviously option 4. They already have a Suarez red dotted pistol and all you have to do is add a stock to be just as capable and more functional then the other 3 options. I really see no benifit in the other systems over your other then if they were full auto.

lefty60
02-03-2016, 05:05 PM
From my point of view #4 would be the best choice. It is a useful add-on to the tools and training that I have already invested in.

Gabriel Suarez
02-03-2016, 05:28 PM
So if we are talking about a stocked, semi auto, 9mm.....do we argue the logic differently?

TheGrayMan214
02-03-2016, 05:29 PM
If you had a fun switch, the Kriss is an amazing piece of engineering... I've only played with the .45 variant but it is crazy low recoil for what it is... With that said, I don't think this setup on a G18C would be any less efficient than a Kriss SMG, and a stocked Glock would probably be considerably lighter than the Kriss which for a PDW is a huge plus.

If you carry a Glock pistol, #4 is a no brainer choice as there is nothing that can happen with the Glock PDW that you can't learn on the Glock pistol. If you carry other brands, this loses some steam but not as much... I would imagine ENDO will make braces for other service pistols in the future and if they don't, one more selling point when I try to tell people to get a Glock.

I like the MPX and the Skorpion, but something running the 33 round mags I already have several of is a huge plus... Add in that even in areas where the Brace may be more questionable (some counties here in NC have different opinions on them and legal or not I'd rather not waste a day in court if I don't have to) it can easily be detached.

Another plus is for people strapped for cash that have a Glock pistol (or more like some folks) and want/need something with this capability it's a whole lot more cost efficient than a whole new weapon and support system.

kid_couteau
02-03-2016, 05:40 PM
Hi All
For me the AR in 9mm
Folds up pretty good
Longer barrel so longer sight radius if the red dot goes down
Longer barrel so a bit more power ballistically.
I am used to the platform

But then again I am speaking only for me
Kid Couteau

cwood
02-03-2016, 05:42 PM
While all of them can do in the hands of a trained and willing man, I favor #4. When something breaks, I can get Glock parts from Gabe, from the gunstore in my small town, from multiple sources on the internet, and from Glock's regional distributor for department guns. The availability of parts and magazines is high on my priority list when selecting guns for work, shortly behind proven reliability.

chad newton
02-03-2016, 05:54 PM
So if we are talking about a stocked, semi auto, 9mm.....do we argue the logic differently?
No, I think just like all of your ideas, it is pretty sweet and most importantly deployable at will. You can't always carry a rifle, this is by far the best option.

chad newton
02-03-2016, 05:58 PM
I also want to add, now may be the time to step up to 10mm or something of that nature and truly get the full benifit a of added stability and the most you can possibly get out of your daily carry weapon.

Yondering
02-03-2016, 06:10 PM
I also want to add, now may be the time to step up to 10mm or something of that nature and truly get the full benifit a of added stability and the most you can possibly get out of your daily carry weapon.

I've got another PDW kit on the way from SI that will be dedicated to my 10mm long slide. (Have to modify it to fit the SF frame, it won't fit anything else after that) I never felt the need for an RMR on that longslide before, but will need one now. It's only money...

WOLF220
02-03-2016, 06:27 PM
You guys beat me to it. Out of the 4 choices, I also prefer #4. Just makes too much sense. Spare parts inventory, same manual of arms, etc. But to have a setup like that in 10mm changes the game. A long slide or extended barrel with a RMR, OHHH MAN!!

Dark One
02-03-2016, 06:28 PM
Glock PDW first. 2nd. Sbr'd scorpion..... Just cuz I had no problem finding 30 round mags for the scorpion.

chad newton
02-03-2016, 06:33 PM
You guys beat me to it. Out of the 4 choices, I also prefer #4. Just makes too much sense. Spare parts inventory, same manual of arms, etc. But to have a setup like that in 10mm changes the game. A long slide or extended barrel with a RMR, OHHH MAN!!
If anything it's the simple fact that it is just an addition to your daily carry rig. I don't know what could be better then that. In my book, pistol caliber a always fall short in a dedicated role of a semi auto smg. It's too bulky, and can't be carried or concealed like a pistol with hardly any more added benifits other then a stock. Now that issue is solved....

WinstonSmith
02-03-2016, 06:36 PM
#4.

It's 2016. If I was "starting over" with your gun collection today, it would be a Glock pistols, at least one with an RMR, and ARs. As such, this thing is so inexpensive ($100) that I can view it as disposable if needed-- won't cry over losing it. It can travel with me while the Glock stays on me, making "light travel" possible when I want something more accurate and "offensive" than just a pistol.

No new manual of arms (I already use the RMR as a charging handle, which is very SMG like if you think about it). No new magazines. No new ammo. In fact, it makes more high capacity Glock mags very appealing, especially in the new era of Magpul and ETS options to compete with the factory mags.

What's not to like? Well, only that mine hasn't arrived yet (shipped, though). I predict that this setup + the new SI trigger are going to push me to liquidate some safe queens and get out of the SMG game altogether.

Sam Spade
02-03-2016, 06:48 PM
Contrarian view: Stocked pistols were well known back in the day. BHP, Artillery Luger, C96. But immediately following their introduction, they fade back and the stocked guns take off for 7 or 8 decades. Armies like to win, so there must have been something that made the more expensive, bulkier SMG that struck the same blow rule the roost for so long. Maybe it was only the control under full auto. But I'm not sure that's the only answer.

WinstonSmith
02-03-2016, 07:00 PM
Contrarian view: Stocked pistols were well known back in the day. BHP, Artillery Luger, C96. But immediately following their introduction, they fade back and the stocked guns take off for 7 or 8 decades. Armies like to win, so there must have been something that made the more expensive, bulkier SMG that struck the same blow rule the roost for so long. Maybe it was only the control under full auto. But I'm not sure that's the only answer.

Hollywood, Unobtanium factor, and state of the art in ammo tech.

The Hollywood + Unobtanium (object of desire) factor are easy to understand.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 30 years ago, if you wanted a small form factor weapon to breach a building, the common approach was pistol caliber in an SMG. Today we have 5.56 and .300 BLK loads that can do things the 9mm, .40, and .45 cannot, so the SMGs is falling out of favor for the SBR with a rifle caliber.

If my goal was to have the gun collection that rivals a museum, I'd want all of those options. Instead, my goal is to have the most efficient tools for me (and maybe some "desirables" as a fun hobby collection).

WinstonSmith
02-03-2016, 07:49 PM
For more direct action, how about this (especially .300 BLK suppressed) ...

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grizzlyblake
02-03-2016, 07:59 PM
I do not like guns with me all the time that aren't carried on body. It's just one more critical thing to keep track of.

I carry a North Face backpack in my truck and to my office every day. Extra Glock mags, eye glasses, phone charger, gym clothes, etc. The cheap snap on stock would be totally practical for me to just keep in the bag full time to compliment the AIWB G19. A folding AR or something is not an option since I leave the bag unattended throughout the day.

Dorkface
02-03-2016, 08:07 PM
ok of the choices in this thread a braced rmr glock is the only one that really gives you an advantage. They all shoot 9mm; Even with a longer barrel you don't get THAT much more velocity. What you do get is a lot more weight, bulk and things of that nature. Unless its an SBR the SMG has a 16" barrel. A braced Glock is super compact and with a happy stick matches capacity of most SMGs even if they are sbr's. The only way an SMG will get an advantage is if it has a fun switch. At that point the weight and bulk of the SMG becomes an asset.

I have yet to handle a braced glock but I think I have enough training and experience with sbr's, full auto sbr's, and full auto sbr smg's to extrapolate the data.

ok now to the other thread for a longer post lol.

Gabriel Suarez
02-03-2016, 08:09 PM
If we are talking full auto...that is one thing. But semi auto 9mm is semi auto 9mm.

Dorkface
02-03-2016, 08:26 PM
If we are talking full auto...that is one thing. But semi auto 9mm is semi auto 9mm.


Exactly.

LawDog
02-03-2016, 09:23 PM
I don't mean this as a jack-ass answer, but I have to come down on "none of the above." For a 5% increase in the form factor, I can have a .300 BLK or 5.56mm. But I'll play the game and limit my options to these four for the sake of a hypothetical.

1 and 4 both have the advantage of taking Glock magazines, which I already possess in abundance and which I have lying about all over the place.

4 has the disadvantage of lacking a manual safety. That is a problem we have discussed, and a problem which has not been adequately resolved. 4 offers a far more limited selection for optics (the RMR is it), lights, and you'll only have direct-thread options for suppressors. There is no forward position for your support hand. Slings will have to be single-point, and the attachment is all the way at the rear, so it will be flopping around your neck like a king salmon.

2 and 3 both take proprietary mags. Mags for 3 are ridiculously expensive. Mags for 2 are slightly less ridiculous. These two guns are the most ergonomic, have the most comfortably positioned thumb safeties, offer options for a forward support hand, and multiple sling options. Fast-attach suppressors are a possibility.

1 may offer faster follow-up shots. I say "may" purely because I've not yet had the pleasure of shooting a Kriss. Sling options will be limited. The thumb safety is good. There is a good place for your support hand. Suppressors will need to be direct-mount.

Despite the magazine problem, I tend to like 2 and 3 the best. In the past, I have laughed at the 9mm AR as being too under-powered for its size. But in the past, the 9mm AR also had the disadvantage of using Uzi mags. Now that there are options for a 9mm AR that takes Glock magazines, that might be my actual choice. The AR, though, has both the advantage and disadvantage of having a natural buffer tube. The advantage is that you can have a "non-stock" that is the ultimate in minimal. The disadvantage is that you won't have a side-folder (at least not without an additional $300 and six ounces). My dream would be an MPX that accepts Glock mags, but we know that's never going to happen.

H60DoorGunner
02-03-2016, 10:05 PM
If we are talking full auto...that is one thing. But semi auto 9mm is semi auto 9mm.

Even if one were running a select fire Glock, with the addition of a stock and RMR, my vote still goes to the stocked pistol over all others in the sub gun category. It is possible to instal a gangster grip on the rail of the Glock, to aid during full auto fire.

Traditionally, I think stocked pistols fell from favor because of issues with the sight radius. With the advantage going to SMG's, having a better sighting setup, and ability to shoot to the cartridges full capacity in distance and velocity. Those problems are solved with the advent of the RMR and modern ammunition.

Obviously, an SMG or stocked pistol can never take the place of a carbine or full sized rifle, but for the SMG niche, it's the "non-stocked" Glock FTW! As a lone civilian, typically working in an urban, social NPE, such a compact gun that uses the same batteries, ammo, and magazines as my EDC pistol is a dream come true. Make it a folding stock on an RMR'd G34, and add 7 or 8 happy sticks, and you've extended your distance and duration, with the ability to carry inside a small messenger bag. As for the issue with the safety, I think carrying it with an NPE holster over the trigger fixes that.

Theres no reason not to like it.

noonesshowmonkey
02-04-2016, 02:04 AM
I don't mean this as a jack-ass answer, but I have to come down on "none of the above." For a 5% increase in the form factor, I can have a .300 BLK or 5.56mm.

I am of this camp. A pistol calibered anything but an actual pistol seems somewhat silly.

A braced Glock represents the sweet spot between concealability of a pistol, it's ability to be ready-to-hand that differentiates it from a rifle, and the raw bulk of an SBR class weapon. As CoastalCop has pointed out, this is a defining system for someone in an NPE like an under cover that needs to go from just a pistol to something not-quite-direct-action but more than a reactive gunfight. It is the ability to leverage the inherent assets to their maximum: I carry a Glock 19, even in the shitass nissan sentra for a long surveillance. Even when an M4 is impractical, the Glock 19 is on me. If I can secure a brace to it quickly, or just extend the brace and thereby extend the combat range of the firearm, then great.

Past that, anything other tool requires a mission specific bag. I can't really tuck an SMG or SBR under a jacket and make it disappear like I can a pistol. I can, however, put an SBR under a car seat, or into a backpack, and deploy it when I know the fight is on. When the gunfight has even the slightest bit of lead time, whether that is the moments after the initial ambush, or a moment's heads up before the shooting starts, if I have the time to get to a rifle class firearm, that's what I want.

If I had to pick, I'd be looking for a side folding .300 BO SBR to be the next step up from an RMR'd Glock 19. If I couldn't justify the SBR, then a braced Glock. Above that, I'd reach for an Mk18 CBQR. Past that, a 16" recce. Etc.

barnetmill
02-04-2016, 03:44 AM
I can not make a choice from experience and that is what counts. I have the SI endo setup on order and it is scheduled to arrive today. I will try it out and see what it does for me. On paper this all looks good and I expect it will be in practice.

grizzlyblake
02-04-2016, 05:43 AM
I think the important factor with the stocked Glock is that it is merely a normally CC'd handgun, with the option of adding a stock very quickly. I am not one that carries around an extra long gun daily so, as I said in my previous post, the ability to carry a cheap stock to slap on the already carried Glock is a great tool.

I think we are looking at totally different tools in reality. The SBR ARs and such are true secondary weapons, and at that point it makes more sense to have a .300 or 5.56 as a standalone supplemental weapon to your handgun.

The Glock stock is merely an additional piece to add to the gun you'll already have with you 100% of the time. It's also not a gun so you can just have the stock wherever and not worry about it. Think gym bag, office desk drawer, vehicle console, etc. If/when these are turnkey for G19s I'll buy at least one for the purpose I've already outlined.

I personally see no point in keeping a dedicated stocked Glock if you're going the route of a true secondary/supplemental short long gun.

Pict
02-04-2016, 06:01 AM
If I owned a a Glock with an RMR I'd buy the brace to extend the capabilities of a significant investment. The benefits outweigh the cost and seriously improve long range accuracy. It is far easier to CC the Glock and carry the stock in a pack, briefcase, car, whatever. If a fight happened and I had a choice between a braced Glock and a dedicated 9mm SBR or AR pistol, I would choose the latter. The fact is I will never have that choice. I will only have the weapon I'm willing to carry around.

My 9mm AR pistol occupies my PDW slot as a weapon that is easy and legal to take along for the ride. I can transport it broken in two in a laptop case or small backpack in places I would not carry a dedicated rifle case. Once assembled it still remains legal to have loaded and accessible in my car. A braced RMR Glock does all that. Still, in a fight I'd rather have the AR pistol and don't feel the need to have it instantly deployable. I carry a G19 for that.

EDELWEISS
02-04-2016, 06:43 AM
WHICH ONE MAKES THE MOST SENSE??

https://www.kygunco.com/prodimages/52605-DEFAULT-L.jpg
http://www.impactguns.com/data/default/images/catalog/535/cz-scorp-pkg-3.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FGPAoFj.jpg

46844

ARGUE THE POINTS

Ive "looked" at this post at least a dozen times, and I dont see FOUR options; so unless its one of those squintie eye things Im gonna limit my posts to the KRISS pistol, the CZ Scorpion, and the Glock/Endo combo--unless somebody can show me others.....

FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS ASSUME ALL GUNS ARE SEMI AUTO
Which one makes the most sense??? What does THAT mean? Sense for what? In what role? Where? What resources? ?????????

You guys know me, I carry every day and I carry heavy damn near all the time. If I dont have a PDW on me its in arms reach and its in ADDITION to my side arm. You also know Im a SMG guy, because my urban/suburban AO "supports "SMGs just as well as rifle caliber guns (maybe better). Soooooo I like all of them, the CZ least of all because its a poor second to the SIG and because a AR pistol wins on popularity default. The KRISS isnt even on my radar any longer. Its sad because it has possibilities but its priced to high to be a toy and too much of an orphan, perhaps if I carried 45acp OR if KRISS had come out with a 9mm version; but the advantage of the KRISS in 45 is soon lost when mag extensions arent available or cost $50+ just for the extension....

I DO like the Glock/ENDO combo. It DOES have a place and maybe even more of a useful place for most BUT its not the gun Id ever consider going to war with, the mall yes, but not for serious (riots in Baltimore) fighting. For that, I want a true-er SMG. Theres a reason the Stocked Pistols failed as military weapons but excel as Bodyguard and civilian Personal Defense Weapons. So yes the Glock/ENDO combo is a great weapon, and yes it probably servers more folks for more uses than a UZI or MP5; but a dedicated AR9mm using Glock mags with a folding buffer is pretty small and offers barrel length options from crazy short to 10+ inches. Yep its heavier than the Glock/ENDO combo but no more cumbersome (and maybe less???).

If you carry a Glock then adding a second one (in the same caliber) with the ENDO makes sense. If your going to the mall, its easy to carry both. If youre doing a EP detail and your client insists he wants to have a gun for him to use, then maybe the Glock/ENDO works there too, or if you can convince your wife/husband the diaper bag "needs" to have one more thing, then the Glock/ENDO is the ticket......but....if the natives are restless, then I want more and Im willing to carry it. If its a AR that uses the same Glock mags as my carry gun all the better.

A pistol is not a substitute for a SMG, neither is a SMG a substitute for a pistol. A Stocked Pistol bridges that gap; but its also a "neither" not a SMG or a Pistol--its sorta both. Theres been some discussion about putting the stock on under stress. Believe it or not those same arguments occurred 100 years ago. Obviously you want the "stock" on when you need it and off when you dont. The closest we have to "cake and eat it too" fo the ENDO is a folding mechanism; but its not a perfect solution (yet). Ive played with Broomhandles, lugers, and HK VP70s they arent (much) faster than the ENDO to mount under stress, especially if you forego the ENDOs pin (not a great idea). Tiny SMGs like the MAC and Vz61 win that battle, especially under stress; but they come with their own issues. The "best" solution seems to be a Glock on your belt and a complete Glock/ENDO combo in your bag (with just the ENDO unit in your bag as a second best).

Will I put the AR-K (QC10) in the safe and "just" carry a Glock/ENDO--NO; but I will carry it sometimes, just like I carry a AK Suchka and grenades sometimes

Gabriel Suarez
02-04-2016, 06:50 AM
I think there is a definite difference in mission between a short assault rifle in a rifle caliber, and a semi auto 9mm. If we remove the selective fire option...which we do, I think the Braced Glock can keep up with ANY stocked 9mm weapon in speed and accuracy, and smoked it in carryability and compactness.

I hate that stupid word - "braced", and I have sent in $200 for the privilige of being able to use this thing on video the way everyone does but denies doing it...so much for a free country...but I digress.

Perhaps at some point we will do a head to head race of all similar weapon systems on a course of fire designed for the SMG and see how things land.

CabbitOne
02-04-2016, 07:30 AM
I don't mean this as a jack-ass answer, but I have to come down on "none of the above." For a 5% increase in the form factor, I can have a .300 BLK or 5.56mm.

That is pretty much where my mind was when I jumped the gun(ha ha) with my original post.

tweek
02-04-2016, 07:46 AM
I didn't know the KRISS came in 9mm. Thought it was 45 only. But I don't spend all my time on this so we'll go with 9mm

As configured all of them suck. If you want a small rifle: file the paperwork and get an SBR. If you're going that far why stay 9mm? Why not build on 300 blk or 556 or even 308? I have a Scorpion and it make a fine dangerous toy as a 'pistol'. I wouldn't want to trust my life to it. Once it has been SBR'd I think it will make a nice discrete weapon that can be transported in a small backpack or messenger bag without attracting any attention. But at the same time I deeply question the real value beyond its novelty. An SBR'd piston driven 11" 4 with a folding stock wouldn't be much bigger and be effective at longer distances.

Same goes for the MPX - without a real stock it's just a dangerous toy. fun to blaze away at the range with but in the moment I'm grabbing my SCAR.

The glock with the brace contraption? It's nice. But Glocks, just like FNs and SWs make great handguns but only mediocre whatever you call that. I suppose if that is what you have and it happens to be in your bag or car at the moment it will do. But if I'm planning ahead - I'd really prefer a real SBR in a caliber that will punch through shit and make people reconsider their life choices.

I'm using a lot of word to say: neat toys.

ss58
02-04-2016, 08:08 AM
I bought a KRISS when they first came out, it is a fun gun to shoot and is accurate and reliable. At the time I was EDC'ing an SI 21 so it seemed to make a lot of sense. When I get my SI PDW kit's one of them will be on the RMR'd 21 with a can for dedicated bedside gun.

I believe that this "braced Glock" could be the solution to "having a carbine with you all the time" dilemma we have been discussing here.

Like RDS on pistols I get the feeling that thanks to Gabe this will be much more mainstream in a year or so. Its nice to be here and always be ahead of the curve. When I showed guys my first SI Glocks a few years ago they couldn't wrap their heads around it.

In the last 2 months I have received more then a few calls for a range trip.

coastalcop
02-04-2016, 08:15 AM
I think there is a definite difference in mission between a short assault rifle in a rifle caliber, and a semi auto 9mm. If we remove the selective fire option...which we do, I think the Braced Glock can keep up with ANY stocked 9mm weapon in speed and accuracy, and smoked it in carryability and compactness.

I hate that stupid word - "braced", and I have sent in $200 for the privilige of being able to use this thing on video the way everyone does but denies doing it...so much for a free country...but I digress.

Perhaps at some point we will do a head to head race of all similar weapon systems on a course of fire designed for the SMG and see how things land.


Im going to try both the "blade" and a conventional collapse stock on mine, will report back as well, though right now I don't think I would change from the "blade" for this set up. Just cause you have the stamp doesn't mean you cant use the "blade" ;)

Brent Yamamoto
02-04-2016, 10:48 AM
Im going to try both the "blade" and a conventional collapse stock on mine, will report back as well, though right now I don't think I would change from the "blade" for this set up. Just cause you have the stamp doesn't mean you cant use the "blade" ;)

I think what Gabe means is that he wants to be able to post videos and pictures using this as an actual SBR rather than hint at it. And actually be able to use the word "stock" rather than brace.

TheJawn
02-04-2016, 11:18 AM
I believe that this "braced Glock" could be the solution to "having a carbine with you all the time" dilemma we have been discussing here.
It does seem to fulfill the need of ccw enhancement. Honestly, I won't carry some 8" barreled .300 aac law folder pdw in a bag as well as my ccw in the appendix. If I do carry a bag, I'd be more willing to carry a piece of plastic in it.

It's not so much about fighting 2+ guys who have AKs and steel plates. For that I'd like a pdw-rifle, as well as the exact place, date, and time of their party. This is about being perpetually ready whenever you're away from your castle.

grizzlyblake
02-04-2016, 11:18 AM
I believe that this "braced Glock" could be the solution to "having a carbine with you all the time" dilemma we have been discussing here.




It does seem to fulfill the need of ccw enhancement. I won't carry some 8" barreled .300 aac law folder pdw in a bag as well as my ccw in the appendix. If I do carry a bag, I'd be more willing to carry around a piece of plastic in it..... It's about being perpetually ready whenever you're away from your castle.


Yes, exactly. This thing isn't my idea and I'm not the one marketing it, so, Gabe/Brent, correct me if I'm wrong here.

I may be the perfect target audience for this piece of kit. My normal day means going to my office, then out to job sites, meeting with people, in and out of buildings and vehicles. I always carry a bag with my iPad and normal spare personal stuff, but there is no way I would want to have a small carbine flopping all around everywhere I go and getting left unattended.

I would absolutely buy this PDW brace and a couple of big mags to keep in my bag to AUGMENT my G19 that I already have on.

A "PDW Add On Package" with a milled slide and RMR mounted, brace (to fit G19 with no modification from me), and 3 big mags would probably sell like hotcakes. I know I would be first in line.

In a weird way it almost justifies the milled slide and RMR when you add the cheap blade to the whole thing.

Gabriel Suarez
02-04-2016, 12:00 PM
Hmmm. Well, yes. I am looking at this as more a dedicated additional pistol, but sure...a kit could be done like you discussed. The "brace, with a pair of ETS Happy sticks clamped together would make for a formidable package that would still be far lighter and more compact than any SMG.

46866

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/

Brent Yamamoto
02-04-2016, 12:17 PM
One of the beauties of this system is that it's flexible. Want to dedicate a pistol to this role with the brace permanently attached? Run it like I do with a folder? Keep the brace in your bag to attach as needed to your EDC?

All of these options make some sense, it just depends on what you think will be most useful for your needs.

For me, this development is "the answer" to the PDW problems I've been trying to solve. I will be buying an extra brace (maybe even two) for some additional projects.

LawDog
02-04-2016, 12:18 PM
I have sent in $200 for the privilige of being able to use this thing on video the way everyone does but denies doing it...so much for a free country...but I digress.That should work. I don't know why I didn't think of that myself. You just have to insert the silly legal disclaimer that "this is only intended for guns that have a brace or stock and have been registered as an SBR, blah, blah, blah." You don't want to get hung up on a conspiracy charge. The legal shenanigans are ridiculous, but....yeah. 'Merica. Land of the quasi-free.

grizzlyblake
02-04-2016, 12:41 PM
I would really like to see someone get this thing ready to roll for the G19. I have more money than I do free time so I'll have to wait for someone else to do the legwork and pay for the results. Hell, offer it up in a cute little cordura bag with pockets for the "brace" and the mags, put the Suarez patches on the outside. Small enough to drop in your laptop bag or gym bag.

I'm thinking the implementation would be something like:
1. Grab "brace" kit out of back/console/etc. with left hand
2. Draw G19 from holster with right hand
3. Quickly install the "brace" with the left hand
3a. Drop 15rd mag with thumb release and install coupled ETS twin mags with left hand

I'm still learning how this current setup works, but some kind of spring loaded detent that semi-locks to the grip instead of the chained pin mechanism it has now would be better for one handed deployment.

StealthNeighbor
02-04-2016, 01:06 PM
...For me, this development is "the answer" to the PDW problems I've been trying to solve. I will be buying an extra brace (maybe even two) for some additional projects.

OK, I'm gonna ask something stupid, so please forgive my ignorance in advance...

1. One PDW option -- the concept discussed here -- is to take a pistol (even an EDC pistol) and enhance its effectiveness by (temporarily/permanently) improving its stability via the brace concept.

2. Prior to this was the "revolutionary" red dot-equipped pistol concept -- "old hat" for the Tribe, and finally becoming mainstream in the industry -- which enhanced EDC effectiveness by rapidly improving aiming. This, of course, should be a vital component of any worthwhile PDW...

3. In an effort to "go where the puck is going, not where it is," I'd opine that the PDW concept (specifically building upon an EDC pistol's capability versus an AR pistol or dedicated non-pistol weapon) assumes reliability and accuracy (i.e., an RMR-equipped Glock) and then IMPROVING it in 2 areas:
- stability
- external + terminal ballistics

This is a game-changer, of course: Glock + RMR + PDW brace system. This solves the "stability" portion.

To improve the effectiveness / ballistics of (since I have an RMR-equipped OST Glock 19, I'll talk about) a 9mm round, for example, the only options were/are:
- choosing the most effective 9mm round available while staying within SAAMI limits (via bullet design, weight and velocity); and
- increasing the barrel length

Here comes the stupid question:

Since swapping out barrels is not the quickest / easiest thing to do, why can't a barrel extension be made that threads (like a suppressor) onto a standard-length 1/2"-28 threaded match barrel, thus doubling / tripling / quadrupling the barrel length, increasing velocity (and energy) and making the EDC-turned-PDW even more effective?

Cons:
- do the threads have to line up to maintain accuracy? (probably...perhaps...I don't know)
- won't it change the POI? (yep...but it'll be a flatter shooter -- with more power)
- will it detract from the desired compactness of a PDW? (no more so than temporarily using a suppressor...or a brace)

Like I said: stupid question...but I wonder if it'd be viable as yet another PDW option...

Brent Yamamoto
02-04-2016, 01:13 PM
Stealth - short answer...if you want to get some more velocity from 9mm, the answer is a longer barrel (and even then, a couple extra inches on 9mm doesn't help A LOT). Gunsmith guys can elaborate I'm sure, but I don't see a threaded attachment helping us here.

I think you either have a pistol dedicated to the role, or you simply carry your EDC pistol as it is and attach the brace as necessary. I think it's much more important to know where your POA/POI is with a given pistol than it is to modify it on the fly.

grizzlyblake
02-04-2016, 01:15 PM
It would probably be just as quick to have a second slide set up with a huge barrel and swap them out.

I think you're getting too far into the area of dicking around with the weapon when you need to be shooting people with it.

StealthNeighbor
02-04-2016, 02:23 PM
It would probably be just as quick to have a second slide set up with a huge barrel and swap them out.

I think you're getting too far into the area of dicking around with the weapon when you need to be shooting people with it.

Agreed re: speed but, on your second "point," if folks need shooting IMMEDIATELY, methinks you'd probably be pulling the trigger on your EDC versus "dicking around" with attaching a PDW stock, then...

So, do you dismiss this whole idea of attaching a PDW stock, GrizzlyBlake?

FWIW, I'm trying to contemplate what "PDWing" brings to the party -- and brainstorm what Gabe asked about, currently has, and what, directionally, might be other viable options to further enhance the EDC weapon when morphed into a viable PDW.

In my humble opinion, a "dedicated" (permanent) PDW setup goes against the idea of a detachable stock that makes your EDC weapon more, well, "PDW-esque."

Like I said: my question might be a very stupid one...

Brent Yamamoto
02-04-2016, 02:38 PM
Reactive gunfight: Move, to cover if possible, while drawing your pistol and shooting the adversary to the ground.

Prolonged event: Shooting has started but you're not in IMMEDIATE danger. There is time to draw either a fully assembled Glock PDW, or affix the brace to your EDC.

Whether you carry one fully assembled or just carry the brace depends on your needs and what you want to carry with you. A fully assembled PDW will require a bit bigger bag...and you have to either keep it on you at all times or at minimum be in a situation that it's secure enough to set the bag down. A brace by itself obviously allows for a smaller bag, and provides a bit less vigilance on watching your bag. And it also means it will take a bit longer to attach the brace, and excellent trigger discipline (which you should have anyway!) because you'll be attaching this with a round in the chamber.

Like everything there are pros and cons. Nothing is free.

LawDog
02-04-2016, 02:59 PM
I think you're getting too far into the area of dicking around with the weapon when you need to be shooting people with it.This is an important issue. I think that we are really discussing two different design ideas (and products): one for the dedicated PDW and a different one for the stock/brace that is affixed in the field.

For a dedicated PDW, you have to either go with a "brace" or do the NFA paperwork. And it means a gun that is too large to holster and carry around. It can be carried in a bag or propped up in a corner, but it is not an EDC gun.

The in-field conversion is a different beast. The objective here is to create something that you carry around in a bag but is used in conjunction with your EDC pistol in order to attain greater accuracy and faster follow-up. For this purpose, I think the fall-away, non-attached stocks do a better job. Additionally, for a non-attached stock, it can be an actual stock--not an "arm brace." Feel free to stick a rubber butt pad on there to make sure it sticks in your shoulder or chest. You can shoulder it without any fear or criminal liability. As long as it is not affixed to the gun, it does not violate the NFA.

I think that these two distinct ideas are going to demand both different gear and different tactics.

StealthNeighbor
02-04-2016, 03:07 PM
Roger that, Brent...

Like GrizzlyBlake, I have a G19 -- which, from another post, needs "modifications" (not sure what?) for the PDW kit to fit -- and I like the stability benefits....so, also like GrizzlyBlake, I'm contemplating the purchase of this kit.

I'm also contemplating getting an RMR'd Gen 3 G34 slide AND the PDW kit...and I'm wearing my "naked" (non-RMR'd) G34 right now to see just how uncomfortable those 2 extra inches of barrel/slide ride on my slowly-shrinking waistline. The G34 seems inherently more accurate than -- and has a 50% increase in barrel length over -- the G19.

Trying to figure out EDC options -- and the PDW kit fits the stability bill...but, staring at my G19 (with threaded RATTAC barrel as supplied with the RMR'd slide by OST back in 2012), I began to wonder what would happen if I screwed a "barrel extension" -- just like a suppressor -- onto the barrel. I'd want the length to be the same as the overall length as the Endo adapter-arm brace combo. With 10" more barrel, I'm pretty sure I'd get 150-200 fps more, which equates to 100-150 fpe, and that's a "game-changer" in my book. I currently use a semi-auto Uzi 9mm as my "trunk gun" but I know (with the exception of a highway-type ambush as contemplated by the San Bernardino active killers) it'll be what I have on-hand and at-hand.

A PDW kit would ratchet up my capabilities with my EDC. So, if a barrel extension isn't "in the cards," then perhaps a step-change to an RMR'd G34 would make sense.

Just wanted to share the thought process...not trying to hijack the thread.

Yondering
02-04-2016, 03:29 PM
I began to wonder what would happen if I screwed a "barrel extension" -- just like a suppressor -- onto the barrel. I'd want the length to be the same as the overall length as the Endo adapter-arm brace combo. With 10" more barrel, I'm pretty sure I'd get 150-200 fps more, which equates to 100-150 fpe, and that's a "game-changer" in my book.

With 10" of barrel extension, you'd cut down on reliability a lot (if it worked at all), have a different POI, and likely worse accuracy without any significant gain.

If you want 200 fps more, there are better ways to get there than a barrel extension. +P+ ammo, a G34, or better a 357 Sig are all better solutions. However you do it, you can gain a little trajectory and effective range for terminal ballistics, but it's still a pistol cartridge.

Brent Yamamoto
02-04-2016, 03:31 PM
Mine in bold...

Roger that, Brent...

Like GrizzlyBlake, I have a G19 -- which, from another post, needs "modifications" (not sure what?) for the PDW kit to fit -- and I like the stability benefits....so, also like GrizzlyBlake, I'm contemplating the purchase of this kit.
If it's a Gen3 G19, it requires a hole drilled in the brace to accommodate the different position of the lanyard hole. It also requires some material be removed from the bottom front of the brace to allow for magazines. Yondering has a few posts on this, you'll have to look.

I'm also contemplating getting an RMR'd Gen 3 G34 slide AND the PDW kit...and I'm wearing my "naked" (non-RMR'd) G34 right now to see just how uncomfortable those 2 extra inches of barrel/slide ride on my slowly-shrinking waistline. The G34 seems inherently more accurate than -- and has a 50% increase in barrel length over -- the G19.
There's some benefit to a longer barrel for velocity, but this isn't huge with 9mm. The real benefit from the G34 IMO is that it is better balanced and a little easier to shoot than smaller models. Probably a bit more accurate with that additional bit of barrel. If additional velocity is your primary goal...then stepping up to 357Sig is the answer. But of course that eliminates mag/ammo compatibility.

Trying to figure out EDC options -- and the PDW kit fits the stability bill...but, staring at my G19 (with threaded RATTAC barrel as supplied with the RMR'd slide by OST back in 2012), I began to wonder what would happen if I screwed a "barrel extension" -- just like a suppressor -- onto the barrel. I'd want the length to be the same as the overall length as the Endo adapter-arm brace combo. With 10" more barrel, I'm pretty sure I'd get 150-200 fps more, which equates to 100-150 fpe, and that's a "game-changer" in my book. I currently use a semi-auto Uzi 9mm as my "trunk gun" but I know (with the exception of a highway-type ambush as contemplated by the San Bernardino active killers) it'll be what I have on-hand and at-hand.
A threaded attachment won't work for "creating additional barrel". You'd want the exact same internal dimensions as the barrel...and the threads would never be exactly the same so it would only screw up the trajectory. You can buy longer barrels for not much $ and achieve that effect if it's what you want. Most of my glocks have extended barrels for one purpose or another. An extra inch of barrel doesn't look too crazy...longer than that and it looks goofy but if it accomplishes what you want then do it.

A PDW kit would ratchet up my capabilities with my EDC. So, if a barrel extension isn't "in the cards," then perhaps a step-change to an RMR'd G34 would make sense.
The benefit of the PDW kit is to gain additional stability via increased points of contact. That works whether it's a short barrel or a long one, whether the bullet is traveling at 900fps or 1600. More velocity helps with some things...but if the goal is to carry the brace separately and attach to your EDC, I wouldn't worry too much which gun you're carrying, G19 or G34.


Best advice I can give you is to just buy the kit from SI and start experimenting. Assuming your G19 is Gen3, the mods you make to the brace will still allow it to fit a Gen3 G17/G34. Gen4 will still work but requires more modification to fit the skinny back strap.

StealthNeighbor
02-04-2016, 03:49 PM
However you do it, you can gain a little trajectory and effective range for terminal ballistics, but it's still a pistol cartridge.

Excellent point!

Back to the original situation: I'm agreeing with LawDog that either there's (1) a dedicated PDW or (2) an EDC-turned-PDW. This S.I. PDW can be used for both...but I'm more interested in the "conversion to PDW" option (#2) than to use the kit to permanently create a dedicated PDW. In that case -- and considering Brent's most-recent post (which showed up on my cell while I typed this on my laptop!) -- I'm back to the viability of the PDW kit for any "come as you are" direct (re)action situation such as an active killer....

grizzlyblake
02-04-2016, 05:29 PM
Yeah, like I've said a few times, the Glock brace/stock concept seems best as a midway weapon to me. If I can carry a full secondary weapon it will be a .300 or 5.56 of some flavor.

The brace/stock affixed in the field seems to me to be the best application. Therefore it just gets attached to your standard carry handgun. Whether that's RMR'd or whatever is up to your preference.

Brent pretty much hit it dead on.

Mike Heckathorn
02-04-2016, 05:42 PM
The PDW Glock makes the most sense. The first 3 are PDW systems that suck without their brace. The PDW Glock rocks as both a PDW and a CCW...

Gabriel Suarez
02-04-2016, 05:43 PM
I will write more later...the role and purpose. Guys...this is a PRO-active weapon that you and get...not one for an immediate threat.

Dorkface
02-04-2016, 07:08 PM
I am going to be lazy and just paste my post from another thread from the other day to this one. It mostly applies and I don't want to rewrite it because a D&D game is starting lol.


When I am evaluating the usefulness of something for myself I start with a couple of assumptions. That it must give me enough of an advantage over the rmr 19 I carry to warrant use. It should also be able to do things that my rmr can't do. I can do a lot with my rmr 19.

I have been an opponent of the idea of the smg because it doesn't offer enough enough advantages to me to off set its size, weight, portability and offers zero advantage in ammo. They do offer more points of contact and shot recovery. I think the advent of the braced pistol should be the death stroke of the idea of a semi auto smg, especially if its not an sbr, because the braced glock looks to do everything except much better and in a much smaller package.

Some of the advantages that seem apparent with the braced glock are it provides the advantages of a small amount of increased weight to provide more points of contact as well as quicker follow up shots plus it adds very little, if any length, compared to where a glock would normally be in a compressed position. It doesn't offer an increase in any ballistics properties but I think it can easily be offset with the fact that its extremely portable. Things like putting the brace in your luggage on a trip or a briefcase or laptop bag to augment the glock on the belt. It also doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to have a glock preset up in pretty tiny package that fits in a small bag from what I have been seeing in the thread Brent has running right now. It seems like it would be well suited for very desecrate situations or places where a larger then typical bag could be out of place and as much risk needs to be mitigated as can be.

Then there is ballistic advantage. This one is pretty self explanatory. Things like AR pistols, braced 556(r) pistols, braced ak pistols and the like obviously give tremendous advantage over an rmr 19, braced glock and the smg. Rifle rounds are rifle rounds after all. Everything from range to penetration and everything in between. Bad guys in body armor, cars, barriers; All in a package that is the size of an sbr smg especially if folding adapters are used for compact storage while being toted around. A virtual flood of advantage to off set the increase in size, weight, bulk and whatever other inconveniences that come along with it. It might not use the same mags and ammo as my carry gun but that's ok. That is the point.

Ride4TheBrand
02-04-2016, 07:31 PM
Strictly aesthetically ... #3

Paper Shredder
02-04-2016, 11:58 PM
Seriously.... Why am I a month behind every "revolution"? I could have avoided sinking $3k in a 300Blk AR if this concept had been more top of mind!

I literally built a 5.56 AR, didn't fit the mission. Built a 300blk AR, barely fitting the mission. Glock PDW, perfect for EDC, just add RDS. Sheesh..

EDELWEISS
02-05-2016, 06:04 AM
Might this be an argument for 357SIG as a carry gun and a 357SIG as PDW round? Ive seen 357SIG do amazing things for a novice shooter regarding long range (200yd hits) with just a RMRd G35 and 357SIG barrel OR perhaps thats pushing the concept??? I know its "capable" but is that a case where we'd really want a better tool?

5x5
02-05-2016, 06:18 AM
I was thinking of this for daily, off body carry in a shoulder bag or backpack. If the purpose is a proactive, go and get it weapon, why would you not use a full size fighting rifle in a rifle caliber?

grizzlyblake
02-05-2016, 06:24 AM
My thoughts are that whatever you can do to optimize an EDC pistol to the most extremely capable tool that you can is the best option.

If one is starting from scratch I would propose:

Phase 1 EDC:
Gen 4 G32 .357SIG
SI milling job and RMR
AIWB holster
OEM Mags

Phase 2 Proactive Additions:
PDW Brace
High cap mags

GorillaMedic
02-05-2016, 06:24 AM
Might this be an argument for 357SIG as a carry gun and a 357SIG as PDW round? Ive seen 357SIG do amazing things for a novice shooter regarding long range (200yd hits) with just a RMRd G35 and 357SIG barrel OR perhaps thats pushing the concept??? I know its "capable" but is that a case where we'd really want a better tool?

So back around to this question. I seem to remember Texas DPS switching to 9mm and then moving back to .357. Cost aside, would this be a more advantageous round for an EDC gun, paired with the "plastic piece" Endo setup in a bag?

Pros/cons?

grizzlyblake
02-05-2016, 06:25 AM
I was thinking of this for daily, off body carry in a shoulder bag or backpack. If the purpose is a proactive, go and get it weapon, why would you not use a full size fighting rifle in a rifle caliber?

My thoughts exactly. For off body carry I'll take a rifle caliber weapon. The PDW kit makes an excellent AUGMENTATION to your already on-body carried pistol that you don't have to mind like an off-body weapon.

StealthNeighbor
02-05-2016, 06:50 AM
Good points, 'Weiss!

What this thread is morphing into is not just the PDW concept, as that's a transition weapon (and cartridge?) between EDC pistol and dedicated PDW or battle carbine / battle rifle.

On that same train of thought, as had been done (albeit piecemeal) by Jeff Cooper, Gabe Suarez is in an excellent position to pen the next demonstrable step change in guncraft, i.e., what follows "the Modern Technique."

For yucks, I'll call it "the Practical Individual Response/Action TEchnique," or PIRATE, and it appears to resemble an escalation of force continuum, consisting of:

(just brainstorming here)


Mode / Weapon / Purpose / Doctrine-Training

NPE / edged / personal protection / empty-hand; defensive knife; etc.

EDC / RMR'd Glock / optimal concealed carry / CRG, FOF

Enhanced EDC / RMR'd Glock + PDW kit / readily react to active killer (PDW Lite) / TASI

PDW / dedicated PDW / proactively address targets of opportunity / _____

Offensive / battle carbine or rifle / move to contact / guerrilla sniper; rifle gunfighting; recce

Sniper / sniper rifle / surgical shooting / sniper

...or something like that...

Using the above template -once formalized - the student sees where he/she is and what equipment & training are needed to get to the next level (if desired)...

Best I can do on a smatphone, but I hope it makes sense.

Brent Yamamoto
02-05-2016, 06:52 AM
My Glock PDW is 357. Why not a rifle caliber some will say...and it's a fair question. My answer is that I don't want to pack around a damn rifle. Hell I don't pack the PDW around all the time either...but it's so light that I can carry it about quite a lot. I usually have a laptop/messenger bag ANYWAY.

For most circumstances in every day life, carrying a rifle is just unreasonable. I HAVE done it (mostly for research so I can share here), and outside of very particular circumstances most guys just aren't going to carry a rifle. (I've carried lots of different things...AR pistol, Mechtech, AUG, FS2000, Uzi, list goes on.) The Glock PDW is the only thing that is likely I will even bother with. I keep a rifle in the truck but unless something kicks off at the right time and place I'm not going to get it. I'll take a Glock PDW that I have with me over my 308 that's in my safe.

For EDC, I carry a 357 quite a lot. Not always, but a lot. It's nice having same caliber mags...but that's rather besides the point why I carry 357. Mostly it's because I make a calculation about what my fight will likely be...and I don't live my life such that dealing with something close is most likely (of course we can't choose our fight, yada yada, I know). If I need to make a shot of any distance, with a potentially crowded background, I feel most confident with 357.

But it depends what I'm doing for the day. I make different choices based on what I'm doing and where I'm going.

My attitude is I'm going to win regardless so I don't sweat it too much.

grizzlyblake
02-05-2016, 07:14 AM
What this thread is morphing into is not just the PDW concept, as that's a transition weapon (and cartridge?) between EDC pistol and dedicated PDW or battle carbine / battle rifle.

On that same train of thought, as had been done (albeit piecemeal) by Jeff Cooper, Gabe Suarez is in an excellent position to pen the next demonstrable step change in guncraft, i.e., what follows "the Modern Technique."



Gabe is a businessman, as well as an excellent pioneer of cutting edge fighting technology and methodology.

I don't see the standalone Glock PDW as a great tool or a great product when so many people will migrate to a rifle caliber weapon, or even an AR pistol in a pistol caliber. The lack of the Glock safety and such is quite a hurdle. Plus, that niche (trunk gun) is already full of options.

Now, where I see this whole idea shining, like StealthNeighbor alluded to, is developing another entire niche/step in the fighting process, which we is evolving as the *modification* to the EDC pistol to be the "between" weapon from pistol to trunk SBR.

From a marketing perspective I'm picturing a SI Pelican case with a Tier 1 Glock with RMR, carry magazines, and AIWB holster. Also, a cordura pouch with the brace and extended magazines. The pouch would be made to be put inside another bag. The brace would be refined to be used as a quick attach (no pin/chain) and made to work with common carry size Glocks. Throw in a Training DVD of the PDW method. Like the other packages offer drop down choices at each item.

For the training/methodology part, that is out of my realm but I would expect the focus on the businessman with an IWB Glock and his "PDW kit" in his briefcase. Or the IT contractor with his IWB Glock and "PDW Kit" in his backpack/laptop bag. The rapid deployment of the kit onto the pistol and the optimization of the range/accuracy seems like a logical flow.

Training classes could eventually evolve to be one day of EDC pistol, one day of PDW kit, and one day of carbine, or something along those lines.


Anyway, just stream of consciousness stuff here. I hope I'm not out of line as I'm not trying to tell Gabe how to run his business.

Dorkface
02-05-2016, 08:04 AM
Why not a rifle caliber some will say...and it's a fair question. My answer is that I don't want to pack around a damn rifle.

Same. Which is why I don't lol. SMG's and rifles or something like an AR pistol have remarkably similar sizes and weights so why carry an SMG over and AR pistol. The braced glock pretty much kicks them both in the nuts in utility and advantage from what I am seeing.

Yondering
02-05-2016, 09:55 AM
I was thinking of this for daily, off body carry in a shoulder bag or backpack. If the purpose is a proactive, go and get it weapon, why would you not use a full size fighting rifle in a rifle caliber?

So, where is that full size fighting rifle? Do you bring it everywhere you go?

Personally I'm not going to leave a rifle in my car on a daily basis. I have no issue with leaving the Endo/Shockwave in my car, or throwing it in a bag if that's appropriate. For what they cost, you could stash one in every car, and wherever else might be useful.

Yondering
02-05-2016, 09:57 AM
Seriously.... Why am I a month behind every "revolution"? I could have avoided sinking $3k in a 300Blk AR if this concept had been more top of mind!

I literally built a 5.56 AR, didn't fit the mission. Built a 300blk AR, barely fitting the mission. Glock PDW, perfect for EDC, just add RDS. Sheesh..

Different tool for a different role. Your 300 Blk AR is pretty heavy to carry around every day, but still has utility as a rifle round. I'm not getting rid of mine in favor of the Glock PDW, they are for different uses.

LawDog
02-05-2016, 10:16 AM
Best I can do on a smatphone, but I hope it makes sense.One typographical error, and now I'm going to read everything you write with a Boston accent.

StealthNeighbor
02-05-2016, 10:34 AM
One typographical error, and now I'm going to read everything you write with a Boston accent.

Please don't! I hated going to Boston for business; it always made me feel that I had to shower extra long to remove the stench of liberalism that permeated my clothing... ;)

Paper Shredder
02-05-2016, 03:13 PM
Please don't! I hated going to Boston for business; it always made me feel that I had to shower extra long to remove the stench of liberalism that permeated my clothing... ;)

There are non liberals in Boston... Just go near the airport.... "You're in Southie kid"

"Let's go to Havad Square and go f*ck up some smat kids"

5x5
02-05-2016, 07:08 PM
Yondering,
I was referring to Gabes post stating the endo/glock was a go and get it weapon. As I said in my post, I get the use of it for bag carry. It just sounded like Gabe was saying it was a trunk gun. I see from his other thread that that's not the case.

noonesshowmonkey
02-06-2016, 05:51 AM
Been an interesting thread. I'd tried to state, but I guess not that clearly, in my first post on this that the exploitation of the EDC towards a PDW represents a unique and valuable thing.

A PDW and an SBR are too closely related in all but cartridge for there to be much significant difference in their role. The pistol-cartridged SMG lets you have faster follow up shots to fill faces with holes, while the SBR lets you reach out to 300m and potentially defeat body armor. Pick a mission, and let the METT-TC drive your gear choices.

The QD, fast on / fast off, quickly deployable brace is a serious commodity. Even a modification of the Glock frame, so long such modifications do not impede standard function, to allow the brace to be put on and taken off quickly would be worth it. Two snaps, and then I crank open the brace, and have a third or fourth point of contact... That's worth a lot.

A Glock that must be set up permanently with a brace offers functionality that I can't find in an SBR. My 14.5-16" fighting rifle will stay in the trunk. Even a shorty SBR will stay in a the trunk, unless I know that I am headed into some high-risk activity. A braced glock is small and light enough that I can reasonably, an with reasonable convenience, take it with me more places. And this is blurring the line between an EDC, whose chief advantage is that it is on our person at all times, and an SBR/PDW.

Suarez has already red-lined the capabilities of the EDC Glock into a tier 1 combat pistol. It's a worthy route to take to try and figure out if a brace can be hot-swapped onto the system with little to no modification. I'd likely carry such a brace far more often, and into far more places, than I would an SBR. For work, and for personal use. From a work stand point, an SBR is a tougher sell in some regards, given the litigious nature of policing these days.

Pict
02-06-2016, 08:57 AM
The Endo/Glock PDW would make a great back-up weapon for a sniper while moving into position or clearing rooms to the roof.