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Gabriel Suarez
01-27-2016, 12:48 PM
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/GlockBrace_1.jpg

The first time we worked with this the "light bulbs" about its potential lit up. Again...it was a confluence of events and products that created this animal. It doesn't fulfill its potential without a red dot. And it is not possible (vis-a-vis NFA) without the existence of the "Arm Brace" concept. We have put together a kit as seen above, and for a very usable price point as well...made possible by our large buy in.

So things that make this weapon concept more useful:

1). The slide charging handle which is a maybe-yes-maybe-no on a holster carried weapon really comes into its own here, giving a very M4-like weapon manipulation for charging.

2). The weapon benefits from a light mount as shown from a handling perspective. Not essential but I have found it helpful...and besides...a CQB weapon should have one.

3). It can be used separate from the pistol...in other words carried as an accessory and deployed when some warning suggests it is time, but IMHO, this works best with a dedicated pistol that is so arranged and left that way.

4). The magwells do not work with this arrangement, but I think we may bring one out that does.

5). Carry bags that are 20" in length work prefect for this. I located a 5.11 Rush bag that holds this like a baby bird in a nest.

6). It would be nice to have an additional "safety system". This is not carried in a holster generally and the manual of arms is more like a rifle. One would not store a rifle cocked-locked-but off safe. It seems that deploying is no issue since one can work the slide...but what about after? Do we unload and go empty chamber? The notion of my finger is my safety is attractive, but it never works that way in the real world. When not being used a pistol is holstered...a rifle is put on safe. The Glock PDW is.....?

7). Extended magazine release buttons help the manual of arms.

More to follow.

Shotgunwillie
01-27-2016, 01:18 PM
I've been thinking about the safety issue today. The only thing I can think of is locking the slide back after the threat has been eliminated. If you need to shoot again simply hit the slide release and work the trigger.

Definitely not an ideal method, but it's the best I have come up with so far.

Maybe another way to slightly take it out of battery?

DogDoc
01-27-2016, 01:28 PM
I'm just going to slap a Suarez NPE holster (https://www.onesourcetactical.com/the-npe-holster-2.aspx#.Vqk1at-rSV4) on mine. Safety issue solved. The conventional NPE model wouldn't work with an attached light but I'm sure the Suarez elves could come up with one that had a vertical orientation rather than an horizontal orientation so it could be installed and removed without interfering with the light.

And, if you do make a mag guide that works with the Endo, it'd be nifty to also have one that extended the grip of a G19 to be handier with this system.

I quite like the idea of the charging handle on this...off to OST again. :)

Doc

GemJedi
01-27-2016, 01:31 PM
What about the Suarez NPE-2 holster? If it is going to be kept in a bag, the end of the lanyard could be attached somewhere within the bag so when the PDW is removed the holster stays behind? Then is can be chambered and ready to go.

EDELWEISS
01-27-2016, 02:11 PM
Wasnt there a "block" that snapped in behind the trigger that popped out like a 870 safety when you were ready to fire?

46697

coastalcop
01-27-2016, 02:14 PM
yep the trigger guard holster, either 550 corded to the carry pack, or with a larger 550 cobra braid as a "ripcord" for the guard.

Will try to get you some pics

EDELWEISS
01-27-2016, 02:28 PM
If youre gonna carry the Glock PDW chamber loaded I like the "block" Better that the Zack / NPE. It seems a more natural maneuver to me. I love the Zack but not so much in a "off body" set up....
46699

Badger
01-27-2016, 03:10 PM
yep the trigger guard holster, either 550 corded to the carry pack, or with a larger 550 cobra braid as a "ripcord" for the guard.

Will try to get you some pics

Beat me to it.

Or just run empty chamber and charge upon removing from the bag.

Shotgunwillie
01-27-2016, 03:11 PM
The issue is not necessarily disengaging the safety if it's an NPE holster or even that trigger block, it's being able to easily engage the safety after eliminating the threat without looking, fumbling with parts, or even touching the trigger, with the firing hand.

Badger
01-27-2016, 03:20 PM
The issue is not necessarily disengaging the safety if it's an NPE holster or even that trigger block, it's being able to easily engage the safety after eliminating the threat without looking, fumbling with parts, or even touching the trigger, with the firing hand.

I think I'm not understanding what you are saying. There's no external safety on a Glock. In addition, there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking a second after using a weapon to look down at it to do something like clip a zach or npe to the trigger guard IF it is a safe time to put it away. What am I missing?

Grouse870
01-27-2016, 03:21 PM
I think this would work well I think in a bag. Granted it might not be the best but it could stay in the bag just tied off and it works with a light.http://www.armordilloconcealment.com/product_p/x-fer.htm
Not sure if its OK to link another holster maker remove if not

Gabriel Suarez
01-27-2016, 03:58 PM
Wasnt there a "block" that snapped in behind the trigger that popped out like a 870 safety when you were ready to fire?

46697


Yeah...I thought about that but I must confess that I never liked the "safety on the trigger" thing. And I do not consider the lever on the trigger of striker fired weapons a safety per-se. I have some ideas. I will be meeting with someone next week for something that may be an idea. We will see.

Gabriel Suarez
01-27-2016, 03:59 PM
The issue is not necessarily disengaging the safety if it's an NPE holster or even that trigger block, it's being able to easily engage the safety after eliminating the threat without looking, fumbling with parts, or even touching the trigger, with the firing hand.


Yup...this.

Gabriel Suarez
01-27-2016, 04:00 PM
I think I'm not understanding what you are saying. There's no external safety on a Glock. In addition, there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking a second after using a weapon to look down at it to do something like clip a zach or npe to the trigger guard IF it is a safe time to put it away. What am I missing?


I am not sure. I need to study this a little bit and give a better response.

Shotgunwillie
01-27-2016, 04:03 PM
I think I'm not understanding what you are saying. There's no external safety on a Glock. In addition, there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking a second after using a weapon to look down at it to do something like clip a zach or npe to the trigger guard IF it is a safe time to put it away. What am I missing?

I know there is no external safety. I don't think the plug behind the trigger is a viable solution at all. I do like the NPE holster, it's what I carry every day. It would also be good for a loaded chamber carried in a bag. But once out of the bag, safety off, the last thing I want is something swinging from my pistol like a sack. Also whatever "safety" we come up with should be able to be operated with the firing hand.

What about another notch killed in the slide for the slide release to just slightly take it out of battery?

MesserMan
01-27-2016, 04:03 PM
Simple solution. Just make a version of the NPE-2 that works with a Surefire x300/ x400. Problem solved. My bedside pistol is kept chamber-loaded, and shock-corded to the nightstand it rests on with a Zach. If I need the pistol, I just grab it and point in on the threat, and the Zach falls away. The only downside to this setup is that it is incompatible with a Surefire X300. SI could remedy that, and I bet it would sell like mad.

I know this doesn't help the people who are intending on using this as a bag gun, but for a dedicated bedside gun, It would be perfect.

Badger
01-27-2016, 04:21 PM
I know there is no external safety. I don't think the plug behind the trigger is a viable solution at all. I do like the NPE holster, it's what I carry every day. It would also be good for a loaded chamber carried in a bag. But once out of the bag, safety off, the last thing I want is something swinging from my pistol like a sack. Also whatever "safety" we come up with should be able to be operated with the firing hand.

What about another notch killed in the slide for the slide release to just slightly take it out of battery?

Gotcha. I also dislike those trigger plugs. I think an npe tied to the bag would work well, or a pull cord, definitely not swinging from the weapon. I disagree about needing to use the firing hand for the safety though.

Popshot
01-27-2016, 04:23 PM
Consider modification of the Zach design for three characteristics:
it can fit a pistol whether a light is mounted,
can be removed from the trigger guard with support hand
and clips onto the Endo frame for storage.

docholliday13
01-27-2016, 04:31 PM
the biggest drawbacks for me is that holsters like the Zach or vanguard are not compatible with lights. Im sure Gabe and his elves can come up with a solution that can be made easily to fit the braced pistol with a light but that would be awesome if there was one that could be used as an AIWB minimalist holster with a light too.

Grouse870
01-27-2016, 04:51 PM
The armoridillo xfer locks into your pistol mounted light.
http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Armordillo-Concealment-X-Fer-Holster-3.jpg

GemJedi
01-27-2016, 05:23 PM
I am wondering if a light is really necessary if this is a bag gun that is braced for distance shooting. Specifically, this is not going to be my home defense weapon which does have a light. It is also not going to be my primary concealed carry which is AIWB. I really see this as a car gun that provides an alternative to situations where AIWB is not appropriate for longer range, perhaps against an adversary with a rifle. I can really only see taking long distance shots where lighting would be appropriate anyways. Is that a wrong assumption?

Shotgunwillie
01-27-2016, 05:50 PM
I am wondering if a light is really necessary if this is a bag gun that is braced for distance shooting. Specifically, this is not going to be my home defense weapon which does have a light. It is also not going to be my primary concealed carry which is AIWB. I really see this as a car gun that provides an alternative to situations where AIWB is not appropriate for longer range, perhaps against an adversary with a rifle. I can really only see taking long distance shots where lighting would be appropriate anyways. Is that a wrong assumption?

Simple, if you don't need the light, don't turn it on. But the one time you need it you'll be damn glad it's there.

Mike Heckathorn
01-27-2016, 07:24 PM
The armoridillo xfer locks into your pistol mounted light.
http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Armordillo-Concealment-X-Fer-Holster-3.jpg

There are multiple systems that do this... None of them are designed around the PDW concept we provide.

Mike Heckathorn
01-27-2016, 08:02 PM
I am wondering if a light is really necessary if this is a bag gun that is braced for distance shooting. Specifically, this is not going to be my home defense weapon which does have a light. It is also not going to be my primary concealed carry which is AIWB. I really see this as a car gun that provides an alternative to situations where AIWB is not appropriate for longer range, perhaps against an adversary with a rifle. I can really only see taking long distance shots where lighting would be appropriate anyways. Is that a wrong assumption?

A light is necessary on a PDW IMO. If it was strictly a CCW gun, I'd agree. If it isn't carried in an IWB holster (IMHO) it needs a light. Also, define long distance? I've made hits on human silhouette targeted well past 100 yards.

GemJedi
01-27-2016, 08:09 PM
Long distance equals longer than I can hit without a brace. Still working on consistency on head shots at range maximum 25 yards with RMR'd Glock 26. So long distance equals greater than 25 yards for me.

What is the functional distance for a good light to help with shooting anyways?

Seadragon
01-27-2016, 08:11 PM
Y'know, what would be pretty neat is some kind of rail-mounted folding trigger guard (compatible with a light, of course) that folds forward out of the way when the PDW is in use. Of course users would have to take care not to use it as a foregrip when in the 'open' position, that would be illegal.

Mike Heckathorn
01-27-2016, 08:24 PM
Long distance equals longer than I can hit without a brace. Still working on consistency on head shots at range maximum 25 yards with RMR'd Glock 26. So long distance equals greater than 25 yards for me.

What is the functional distance for a good light to help with shooting anyways?

There's no good way to give a quantitive answer to a qualitative question. I prefer the brightest light possible. This is not a shared belief by all.

Brent Yamamoto
01-27-2016, 11:47 PM
A round in the chamber makes sense for the gun on your body. I think "Israeli carry" has been thoroughly critiqued here...for the simple reason that it is a sh*t sandwich in a reactive situation.

But I do NOT think it is a good idea for this concept (keeping in mind that I carry this gun in a bag). Bags get jostled around, and trigger guard type covers can come lose (being levered off, yanked somehow, whatever). Unlikely yes but I'm not going to take that chance with a gun that's 1. not on my body and 2. being moved around, out of sight in a bag. And let's keep in mind that in this circumstance, the weapon is not being used in a reactive manner.

Others' use of this weapon of course will differ, so I can see the use in developing a product to address this need.

I definitely see the value of having some kind of safety to engage AFTER an event has occurred. Yes you can unload it but a clean, simple safety mechanism would be beneficial.


I think it's important to differentiate the "round in chamber" thing. Just because that is the only viable answer for a holstered gun does not make it the only viable answer for guns that are not in our immediate control. Particularly if you're carrying this thing in a bag, I think round in chamber has a lot of accident potential.

I MIGHT rethink my position depending on the product that comes out but for my purposes I see the "PDW safety" as something that would be used when stowing the gun after a hadji face shooting incident.

DogDoc
01-28-2016, 03:12 AM
A round in the chamber makes sense for the gun on your body. I think "Israeli carry" has been thoroughly critiqued here...for the simple reason that it is a sh*t sandwich in a reactive situation.

But I do NOT think it is a good idea for this concept (keeping in mind that I carry this gun in a bag). Bags get jostled around, and trigger guard type covers can come lose (being levered off, yanked somehow, whatever). Unlikely yes but I'm not going to take that chance with a gun that's 1. not on my body and 2. being moved around, out of sight in a bag. And let's keep in mind that in this circumstance, the weapon is not being used in a reactive manner.

Others' use of this weapon of course will differ, so I can see the use in developing a product to address this need.

I definitely see the value of having some kind of safety to engage AFTER an event has occurred. Yes you can unload it but a clean, simple safety mechanism would be beneficial.


I think it's important to differentiate the "round in chamber" thing. Just because that is the only viable answer for a holstered gun does not make it the only viable answer for guns that are not in our immediate control. Particularly if you're carrying this thing in a bag, I think round in chamber has a lot of accident potential.

I MIGHT rethink my position depending on the product that comes out but for my purposes I see the "PDW safety" as something that would be used when stowing the gun after a hadji face shooting incident.

I think Brent is spot on with this. Israeli carry seems perfectly workable in a proactive weapon.

Doc

CaptBeach
01-28-2016, 04:27 AM
Dont know if this has been mentioned above but regarding the additional safety...if using the 5.11 Rush bag or similar bags run it with a round in the chamber and sew a Zach lanyard into the bag, Zach pops of on PDW extraction from the bag.

Blacked out
01-28-2016, 04:59 AM
I agree with Brent as well. The PDW in a bag to me is not a quick reaction weapon. The concept to me would be if needing quick immediate response then the on body gun comes out while I react and once cover can be sought there could be the transfer to the PDW. In this type of circumstance no round needs to be in the chamber. I not going to be fumbling around with some aweful death bag when someone needs shooting now. In a proactive event then the PDW is already in your hands with a round chambered so no need for holsters and the like.
What I am not completely on board with is the need for a safety for after the shoot. We don't have one for a typical hand gun so why for this PDW? Is it solely the reholstering bit?

CaptBeach
01-28-2016, 05:22 AM
If the concept is a "tween gun"...BETWEEN a rifle and pistol...then an AR pattern gun still makes the most sense to me...an Anstadt, QC10, NFA or PSA GLOCK mag compatible gun running an 8" 9mm, barrel, Law Folder and a KAK Shockwave Blade is going to be an even smaller package than the Glock based PDW here...ends the safety issue as well.

Gabriel Suarez
01-28-2016, 05:25 AM
For a pistol only...the safety IS THE HOLSTER. If you arent going to holster...what then? I am not sure the dynamics are the same for this weapon. I think of this more like an smg or rifle...and not as a Glock. Would you remove the mechanical safety on your AK or M4?

Again...a question that needs thought.

CaptBeach
01-28-2016, 05:33 AM
For a pistol only...the safety IS THE HOLSTER. If you arent going to holster...what then? I am not sure the dynamics are the same for this weapon. I think of this more like an smg or rifle...and not as a Glock. Would you remove the mechanical safety on your AK or M4?

Again...a question that needs thought.

I still say put a Zach on it and run it with a round in the chamber 24/7/365...leave the Zach on the ground if not stitched into the bag...think of it as the $9.99 disposable safety. Sell them in a two pack for $19.98... :wink:

John Chambers
01-28-2016, 05:59 AM
So as I am seeing it, if we are just carrying it in a bag, chamber empty is fine. When you deploy it, chamber a round and move out smartly, just like most of us run our AR pistols, folding stock rifles, etc. If the PDW is in my hand, I am not very worried about the manual safety "issue" as I am not putting it away as I might still need to shoot someone. Case in point, if I had my AK in hand, it would be a similar situation since the safety would already be disengaged, and I would not set it until the contact was done.

The main use of the safety would be if I need to stash the weapon quickly in the bag to either E&E, or just to go low profile again. This seems like a perfect place for a trigger sheath type solution, just snap it on the trigger guard and drop the PDW in the bag.

Gabriel Suarez
01-28-2016, 06:25 AM
I may have an interesting solution. More to follow next week.

CaptBeach
01-28-2016, 06:47 AM
I may have an interesting solution. More to follow next week.

Spring loaded Zach with a thumb tab that flips up under the weapons light?

Mr. Anthony
01-28-2016, 08:13 AM
Zach type trigger cover, either attached to the bag, or just pulled off and discarded seems like a good way to go.

I use one of those velcro Maxpedition straps that wraps around the gun and trigger and acts as a holster in my bag every day when I need to stow the pistol. I don't know how they interact with lights, but worth investigating.

docholliday13
01-28-2016, 08:30 AM
Zach type trigger cover, either attached to the bag, or just pulled off and discarded seems like a good way to go.

I use one of those velcro Maxpedition straps that wraps around the gun and trigger and acts as a holster in my bag every day when I need to stow the pistol. I don't know how they interact with lights, but worth investigating.

I've used one and it liked to catch my light. (Tlr-1)

Blacked out
01-28-2016, 08:35 AM
If the concept is a "tween gun"...BETWEEN a rifle and pistol...then an AR pattern gun still makes the most sense to me...an Anstadt, QC10, NFA or PSA GLOCK mag compatible gun running an 8" 9mm, barrel, Law Folder and a KAK Shockwave Blade is going to be an even smaller package than the Glock based PDW here...ends the safety issue as well.

Don't completely disagree however options are golden. I am locked down in my state as to what "can" be carried and what is an "assault weapon". The PDW glock defeats all the current liberal laws. So I am pursuing with great interest.

Shotgunwillie
01-28-2016, 08:35 AM
Guys, storing the pistol is not the issue with the safety. A loaded mag and empty chamber is the way to go while it's in the bag.

We need to think about how we run a rifle, safety is off as long as there is a perceived threat. It goes back on after the threat has been eliminated. We do not empty the chamber. With the safety on it's a simple move to bring the gun back into action if another threat presents itself.

If if I have to set the gun down or hand to someone else for whatever reason, I don't want there to be a loaded chamber with no safety. If we were talking about a pistol, we would just re-holster it with the loaded chamber of we need both hands for something. That's not an option with a stocked system like this. We either have to set it down, hand it to someone, or sling it to transfer to a pistol if that becomes a viable method. The last thing I want to do is sling a gun with a round in the chamber and no safety. The second to last thing I want to do is unload that chamber making it take longer to re-present it if needed.

An NPE type holster would work great until it comes off. Once it's off because you have to run and gun it's either left attached to the bag or on the ground where you removed it. That becomes a useless part if it's not with you.

But if the NPE type becomes the only way to go I suggest that it should have tabs folded out on each side of the weapon so that you can disengage it with your firing hand AND is ambidextrous. Along with the obvious of fitting with a mounted light. If made small and light enough, being attached to the brace with one of those retractable lanyards that are used for card keys might be a good option. As soon as you flip it off, it goes out of the way and you forget about it until it's needed again. This way it's always there no matter where you leave the bag or disengage it.

SqueeDAB
01-28-2016, 12:16 PM
Run a modified Zach on the PDW, w a short cord attaching Zach to the brace.
Keep empty chamber on PDW while in a bag.
Chamber round before using PDW.
After the incident, attach modified Zach to trigger guard until it's safe to clear and stow weapon.

Yondering
01-28-2016, 01:05 PM
But if the NPE type becomes the only way to go I suggest that it should have tabs folded out on each side of the weapon so that you can disengage it with your firing hand AND is ambidextrous. Along with the obvious of fitting with a mounted light. If made small and light enough, being attached to the brace with one of those retractable lanyards that are used for card keys might be a good option. As soon as you flip it off, it goes out of the way and you forget about it until it's needed again. This way it's always there no matter where you leave the bag or disengage it.

I like this idea with a Zach type clip. One could go a step further and make the Zach clip onto the Endo when not in use.

Shotgunwillie
01-28-2016, 01:38 PM
I like this idea with a Zach type clip. One could go a step further and make the Zach clip onto the Endo when not in use.

I think we might have a winner, theoretically at least.

Dark One
01-28-2016, 02:20 PM
Just throwing this out there... Would it make sense to have something that could flip up and down that would cover the trigger when not in use? I guess it would have to somehow attach towards the front of the trigger guard. Flip down and up with a finger, sort of like how you flip a safety on and off.

Housertl
01-28-2016, 04:05 PM
Why not simply use a regular holster? An Archangel or American made to accept the pistol + weapon light, put the pistol in the holster, then in the bag. When you deploy the PDW, take a quarter second to remove the holster. If you want faster access, use a bag with internal PALS webbing and secure the holster to the bag with MALICE clips. Then you can carry with a round in the chamber, or not as you see fit, draw the gun from the bag and it's ready to go.

Yes it's a PDW, but it is still a Glock. you can stick the damn thing in any kydex Glock holster and it will be safe to carry. Don't make it too complicated.

Badger
01-28-2016, 04:24 PM
Just brainstorming...this may be too cumbersome but, if you don't go with an equipment fix such as an npe, how about a manual of arms fix such as something similar we did with shotguns or car subguns. After the action, remove mag, clear weapon, depress trigger for sight/feel recognition of weapon condition, insert fresh mag, place in bag or wherever? Just a thought.

CR Williams
01-28-2016, 04:27 PM
I used to run a G34 with 33rd mag in a TIB sometimes. I would put the G34 into one of the mag pouches. Covered the trigger and kept the pistol oriented for consistent grip and draw from the bag. Gripped and drew from the bag the same way I did from a holster. Worked fine. So many bags have velcro for mounting such things, why not a mag pouch used as a holster like that?

Shotgunwillie
01-28-2016, 04:49 PM
Once again, safety while storing the gun is not the issue...

CaptBeach
01-28-2016, 05:02 PM
I used to run a G34 with 33rd mag in a TIB sometimes. I would put the G34 into one of the mag pouches. Covered the trigger and kept the pistol oriented for consistent grip and draw from the bag. Gripped and drew from the bag the same way I did from a holster. Worked fine. So many bags have velcro for mounting such things, why not a mag pouch used as a holster like that?

Did almost the same thing except I sewed the lanyard for a Zach into the pocket of the TIB... firm grip and it popped right off...

Also if one dog eared the top inboard tabs of the Zach outward at a 90 degree angle one could pop it off with thumb pressure...lanyard could be attached to weapons light for retention...

LEIF
01-29-2016, 09:34 AM
Gabe , For those of us who are interested , but unfamiliar with the concept , could you put together a video showing details , use , etc.
Thanks
Leif

Brent Yamamoto
01-29-2016, 10:08 AM
I wouldn't hold your breath for a video. Mordor is always watching.

But people are familiar with the use of pistols and rifles...so you can use your imagination.

not trying to be a jerk but video of some things is unwise. But let's just say this isn't rocket science.

John Chambers
01-29-2016, 10:39 AM
"I enjoy videos..."
46734

Gabriel Suarez
01-29-2016, 06:52 PM
Gabe , For those of us who are interested , but unfamiliar with the concept , could you put together a video showing details , use , etc.
Thanks
Leif


Well...I have my $200 out for a stamp on a Glock 17. When I have it, I will give you your video and not before. I doubt the rest of you will be doing videos.

Dpswift
01-29-2016, 07:14 PM
This project looks really interesting, and i am in the process of putting this together. But, how does this compare to a 9mm AR like the Angstadt or Quarter Circle 10?

Brent Yamamoto
01-29-2016, 08:33 PM
This project looks really interesting, and i am in the process of putting this together. But, how does this compare to a 9mm AR like the Angstadt or Quarter Circle 10?

They are sexier than the Glock PDW. Longer barrels will give a bit more velocity, and they may be a little more solid (maybe). But IMO the Glock PDW makes all such guns obsolete.

Smaller, lighter, sleeker, simple manual of arms, can easily carry in a bag or even on your person with the right coat. With a red dot and a good SI trigger, the Glock PDW is a lot of kick ass in a tiny tiny package.

Chainsaw76
01-30-2016, 04:29 PM
Gotta admit, it makes me squirt thinking of a G41 set up like this. One could kick some serious a$$ with a setup like this and some spare mags

jim

vandal
01-30-2016, 07:11 PM
If you have a bag you always use for this, then a kydex holster with good retention in the bag should allow chamber loaded carry, and safe re-holstering (ASSuming you keep that area dedicated to the weapon -- no pens, etc that might catch the trigger).

Definitely interested in a folding solution, because currently my 300BLK PDW goes in a smaller bag (Glock PDW is so much lighter though that it would get more actual carry). The Fab Defense polymer folding knuckle looks like the lowest-profile and lightest folding solution, but it does add length and I don't see a M4-to-Shockwave connection offered.

PastorM
01-30-2016, 09:56 PM
Think about the design of a Wilderness Safepacker. Easy to store a pistol with a light, and plenty safe with a round chambered. That kind of a sleeve could be built into a more stealthy backpack, gym bag, etc.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

DogDoc
01-31-2016, 03:55 AM
Does it really take that much more time to attach the Endo than it would to open a folder? If this thing is in a bag, it really is a proactive weapon not a reactive one. I just don't see getting the Endo out of a bag and installing it as taking tons more time than getting it out and unfolding it. Wear your pistol on your hip. If things get really ugly and you have a few seconds, slap on the Endo. When you're done. Take the Endo off and re-holster your pistol. Am I all wet on this?

If you don't mind carrying a bag big enough for a an attached Endo, then for the safety I'd just tie a Zack or NPE to the Endo with enough cord that it could be yanked off easily. Brent and Yondering were experimenting with this on a Mech Tech as I recall. Maybe they can tell us if that was really workable.

Doc

Pict
01-31-2016, 07:43 AM
This project looks really interesting, and i am in the process of putting this together. But, how does this compare to a 9mm AR like the Angstadt or Quarter Circle 10?

I have a 9mm AR built on a dedicated 9mm CMMG lower. Currently it only has an end cap on the buffer, but I'm considering a blade. Mine has a 7 inch barrel and total length is 25.5 inches making it a handgun in my state. Broken into upper and lower it can ride in a standard size laptop case/pack, some assembly required.

Pros - Lots of rail-estate for mounting accessories, will accept any sights or optics designed for an AR, control ergonomics of an AR, solid construction, good Uzi-style magazines, longer barrel makes 100 meter 9mm performance about equal to published handgun muzzle velocity, less muzzle blast than a handgun, easy to suppress.

Cons - Heavier than a Glock PDW, magazines not-compatible with carry handgun, larger weapon, no low capacity magazines available for concealment.

There is a solid case for going to 5.56 or .300 Black if you are willing to carry an AR pistol. The increase in power level justifies the increase in weapon size. IMO a braced RMR Glock is better than a 9mm AR pistol if you envision routine carry of a PDW. The key is portability and you gain enough of it to justify the decrease in power to 9mm. Personally, in a fight, I'd rather have my 9mm AR pistol, but it isn't a matter of what you would rather have but what you will carry consistently.

IMO the RMR Glock brings the braced pistol into its own as a PDW. The RMR solves the poor sight picture that historically plagued stocked pistols. With all of the classic stocked pistols I've fired, the points of contact gained were offset by the standard pistol sights held too close to the eye for precision shooting.

Brent Yamamoto
01-31-2016, 08:56 AM
Does it really take that much more time to attach the Endo than it would to open a folder?

I'd just tie a Zack or NPE to the Endo with enough cord that it could be yanked off easily. Brent and Yondering were experimenting with this on a Mech Tech as I recall. Maybe they can tell us if that was really workable.


It doesn't take that much time to attach the Endo. But doing so under pressure is another story. And the more you fumble with it, the longer it takes you to put it together, the less situational awareness you will have. It is still a good option, and it's always nice to have options. But if you plan on leaving the unit separate, I recommend practicing this procedure a lot. No, it is not difficult, but how many simple tasks become incredibly awkward when you have to do them under pressure?

By comparison, it takes zero time to lock open the folder. Don't kid yourself on the speed, because it's no contest.

A trigger guard holster certainly works. I still do not recommend a loaded chamber in a gun that is not in your immediate control (immediate control is in the holster or in the hand).

EDELWEISS
01-31-2016, 04:50 PM
There is definitely a place for BOTH the GLOCK PDW and a 9mm AR Pistol PDW. Ive been carrying my QC10 pistol for about a month. I never thought I say it was heavy until I started playing with the GLOCK PDW. Yep the Glock is much lighter but Im still not convinced it replaces a SMG type weapon. They complement each other. For most the Glock will fill most needs, but it wont fill all of them once you get further into the need for a real PDW (1990s NATO definition). I do suspect that the Glock PDW will fill more practical needs. As for a folding mechanism, Hmmmm??? Yeah I think its worth continuing to look for the perfect product. I also think there has to be a better set up than the ENDO and a AR Buffer tube--imagine an ENDO but with a FLAT extension and a FLAT Shockwave Blade.....

EDELWEISS
01-31-2016, 06:18 PM
This is something that needs to be developed for everything that "needs" an arm brace but doesn't need a buffer tube. The slim, flat, folding stock on the MCX is similar to what I have in mind, accept not a stock.

EXACTLY

TheGrayMan214
01-31-2016, 06:18 PM
What about something along the lines of the old Cominolli (sp?) thumb safety setups?

barnetmill
01-31-2016, 10:16 PM
Does it really take that much more time to attach the Endo than it would to open a folder? If this thing is in a bag, it really is a proactive weapon not a reactive one. I just don't see getting the Endo out of a bag and installing it as taking tons more time than getting it out and unfolding it. Wear your pistol on your hip. If things get really ugly and you have a few seconds, slap on the Endo. When you're done. Take the Endo off and re-holster your pistol. Am I all wet on this?

If you don't mind carrying a bag big enough for a an attached Endo, then for the safety I'd just tie a Zack or NPE to the Endo with enough cord that it could be yanked off easily. Brent and Yondering were experimenting with this on a Mech Tech as I recall. Maybe they can tell us if that was really workable.

Doc I wonder instead of the trunk rifle we will be have a trunk detachable stock. I can readily carry an RMR equipped pistol concealed, but I and most others will not be likely carrying a folding or detachable stock in a backpack without some notice that something bad is very likely to happen.

glocked
02-01-2016, 11:40 AM
I wonder instead of the trunk rifle we will be have a trunk detachable stock. I can readily carry an RMR equipped pistol concealed, but I and most others will not be likely carrying a folding or detachable stock in a backpack without some notice that something bad is very likely to happen.

I think we just made the complete circle from unattached stocks, to the endo thingy and back to unattached stocks....

barnetmill
02-01-2016, 12:31 PM
I think we just made the complete circle from unattached stocks, to the endo thingy and back to unattached stocks.... This plastic endo stock plus wrist brace is only the beginning. If this were made of better materials it could be designed to be much less bulkier and to fold and telescope to something that might fight in a back pocket. Think of scandium or some other light, but strong material. It might a cost bit more also. Perhaps in a few years the industry may be making such products if the demand if there.
If there are any materials engineers out that want to make their fortune this should be of interest.

Gabriel Suarez
02-01-2016, 01:16 PM
This plastic endo stock plus wrist brace is only the beginning. If this were made of better materials it could be designed to be much less bulkier and to fold and telescope to something that might fight in a back pocket. Think of scandium or some other light, but strong material. It might a cost bit more also. Perhaps in a few years the industry may be making such products if the demand if there.
If there are any materials engineers out that want to make their fortune this should be of interest.

The biggest impediment to innovation in the gun industry is the overbearing US Government and the cheap gun community. Excellence can be had, but it is probably illegal and too expensive for "Billy Gunbuyer"...plus it won't fit on his Kel-Tec.

That this concept is even being discussed is due to a happenstance ruling by the authorities on the Sig Arm Brace.

EDELWEISS
02-01-2016, 01:30 PM
I think we just made the complete circle from unattached stocks, to the endo thingy and back to unattached stocks....

....amd thats because as good or great as the Endo/Shockwave is, it could be better. Better means better materials, and better designs; but as Gabe points out its all dependent on arbitrary rulings that may change tomorrow, with NO grandfathering. I DO think the "press on" stock has more future as far as materials, a slimmer profile and a smaller package. That being said the ENDO/SHOCKWAVE is here NOW!

GemJedi
02-01-2016, 01:35 PM
Now is better, future products are vaporware.

barnetmill
02-01-2016, 05:12 PM
The biggest impediment to innovation in the gun industry is the overbearing US Government and the cheap gun community. Excellence can be had, but it is probably illegal and too expensive for "Billy Gunbuyer"...plus it won't fit on his Kel-Tec.

That this concept is even being discussed is due to a happenstance ruling by the authorities on the Sig Arm Brace.

You indirectly raised an important point. The government made this happenstance ruling for a major manufacturer. Someone that has pull and if need be lawyers; IIRC correctly they were using the disabilities act.
Something similar happened in the airgun industry. All over the world people put silencers on airguns except in the USA because of the ATF. One of the major airgun manufacturers got ATF to agree that an integral non-detachable silencer is ok for airguns and now everyone is selling them that way. But people have in the past gone to prison for putting a silencer on an airgun even though the ATF has no authority over air guns and silencers have been used for 100 yrs on american automobiles.
So mayble such innovation will only belong in the realm of the big companies that have pull. Money does tend to talk a lot louder than some poor guy trying to design something in his garage can talk.

Gabriel Suarez
02-01-2016, 05:15 PM
You indirectly raised an important point. The government made this happenstance ruling for a major manufacturer. Someone that has pull and if need be lawyers; IIRC correctly they were using the disabilities act. .

THE SECOND MOUSE GETS THE CHEESE

GemJedi
02-01-2016, 06:31 PM
You indirectly raised an important point. The government made this happenstance ruling for a major manufacturer. Someone that has pull and if need be lawyers; IIRC correctly they were using the disabilities act.


Well I definitely need the PDW brace against my forearm to improve my age and strength disability to hold the gun steady, and therefore permitting my constitutional right to carry and defend myself.

Sir Moose
02-02-2016, 12:32 AM
Yeah...I thought about that but I must confess that I never liked the "safety on the trigger" thing. And I do not consider the lever on the trigger of striker fired weapons a safety per-se. I have some ideas. I will be meeting with someone next week for something that may be an idea. We will see.

Much of this discussion about safety has been about making the weapon safe after firing. It could just be me, but trying to stick that little button safety behind the trigger while jacked on adrenaline seems like a really bad idea.

barnetmill
02-02-2016, 07:21 AM
Much of this discussion about safety has been about making the weapon safe after firing. It could just be me, but trying to stick that little button safety behind the trigger while jacked on adrenaline seems like a really bad idea.
Before the trigger holsters were available I used something similar when carrying my Gsubcompact gun with the belt clip. I used a string to retain the button or trigger safety as it was described to my belt. Without the string you will lose that piece of plastic. I doubt that have ever used such a device. It is safer to insert that little piece than it is to reholster a glock. You push from the side. Even if you tried to put it in front of the trigger it could not depress the safety or retract the trigger. It could be tied to the endo for safekeeping.

EDELWEISS
02-02-2016, 07:29 AM
Much of this discussion about safety has been about making the weapon safe after firing. It could just be me, but trying to stick that little button safety behind the trigger while jacked on adrenaline seems like a really bad idea.

NOT for after the fun has begun its a BEFORE tool. Im thinking it would be a good idea when tossing it in your bag to start the day.

Dorkface
02-04-2016, 12:46 AM
The safety idea has been rolling around in my mind for a bit... So I started with the idea that the whole thing is being over thought. Why do we need the safety? Why would we put the weapon on safe in the first place?

Borrowing from the rifle curriculum as that is where most safeties are found the only reason to put a rifle on safe is some sort of administrative thing. All the bad guys are dead or there is some task that requires you to sling the rifle. Two ideas came to me. If all the bad guys are dead one way to do it would be to just drop the mag, jack the round out of the chamber in whatever fashion suits you and then put the mag back in the gun or put a new one in if shots were fired. Its ready to go back in the bag like normal. The other being some task suddenly requires the gun to leave the hands even though all the bad guys might not be dead yet. The gun needs to be temporarily stowed while whatever needs to be done. Something like a holster in the bag would make everything safe. I also thought that if its temporary then all that is needed is some sort of barrier to protect the trigger while the gun is in the bag. For lack of a better term something like a kydex taco. Something that gun can be set in while in the back and protect the trigger while it waits to be removed to go kill more bad guys. It doesn't have to be form fit to the gun, don't have to worry about weather there is a light or anything else on the gun. The gun just sits in the taco.

WinstonSmith
02-04-2016, 08:53 AM
The safety idea has been rolling around in my mind for a bit... So I started with the idea that the whole thing is being over thought. Why do we need the safety? Why would we put the weapon on safe in the first place?

Borrowing from the rifle curriculum as that is where most safeties are found the only reason to put a rifle on safe is some sort of administrative thing. All the bad guys are dead or there is some task that requires you to sling the rifle. Two ideas came to me. If all the bad guys are dead one way to do it would be to just drop the mag, jack the round out of the chamber in whatever fashion suits you and then put the mag back in the gun or put a new one in if shots were fired. Its ready to go back in the bag like normal. The other being some task suddenly requires the gun to leave the hands even though all the bad guys might not be dead yet. The gun needs to be temporarily stowed while whatever needs to be done. Something like a holster in the bag would make everything safe. I also thought that if its temporary then all that is needed is some sort of barrier to protect the trigger while the gun is in the bag. For lack of a better term something like a kydex taco. Something that gun can be set in while in the back and protect the trigger while it waits to be removed to go kill more bad guys. It doesn't have to be form fit to the gun, don't have to worry about weather there is a light or anything else on the gun. The gun just sits in the taco.

For me, the purpose is for the rare moments when I have a few seconds to be a little more proactive to go hunting on a major reactive event. The pistol will already be on me or stored ready to go. Brace added as needed. When the job is done, one way or the other, the gun is either empty (so this is moot), the brace is removed and the pistol is back in the holster (again, moot), or I have time to empty the chamber.

This is not a "daily operational weapon system" like CoastalCop kindly opined recently, which would have a requirement of going on/off safe. Then again, a rifle caliber SBR is probably a better fit for that role anyway.

So, I agree, Dorkface.

Yondering
02-04-2016, 10:29 AM
I figure if I need a safety without unloading, I'll just put it in a holster. Whether that's the holster in my belt, or a spare in a bag, etc doesn't really matter.

Dark One
02-10-2016, 06:28 PM
So either I got real lucky or just REAL lucky! So I got my PDW glock kit in and put in on my G19. I measured, erased, measured again and so on. I decided to measure up a 1/4 of an inch from the main hole on the Endo and drilled my 2nd hole. I did NOT have to sand/file off any extra plastic. My 33 round mags fit with no problems.

Gabriel Suarez
02-10-2016, 06:30 PM
Well look at that!

John Chambers
02-10-2016, 06:32 PM
Nicely done!!!!

Brent Yamamoto
02-10-2016, 06:41 PM
Yep, Gen 3 G19 only requires drilling. It's pretty easy. Gen 4 not so much.

46992

Look how small it is with a folder...
46993

steve_k
02-10-2016, 07:04 PM
This thread is going to get expensive....

Some nice looking weapons and clean work with the happy stick mod.

Parallax
02-12-2016, 05:13 PM
Regarding the safety lever issue, would something like this work?

http://images1.opticsplanet.com/365-240-ffffff/opplanet-mako-foregrip-safety-system-pistols-inuse-open-fggk-v1.jpg

I know adding a foregrip to a pistol makes it an "AOW", but does this count as a foregrip legally? It would be great to be able to add a foregrip and brace to my G19 for nightstand duty when I travel instead of having a separate long gun.

Yondering
02-12-2016, 07:16 PM
Seems like that's pretty clearly a foregrip, not even a gray area.

bassbones
02-12-2016, 09:13 PM
not that I know.....but those folding grips cause the gun to malfunction because the fit is real tight. And its really really illegal

JB

Housertl
04-07-2016, 08:44 AM
Goes together like baseball bats and baby seals?

https://www.cryeprecision.com/ProductDetail/blc02000g1r_gunclip

Ted Demosthenes
04-08-2016, 09:02 AM
On safety procedures, personal plan:

When PDW pistol is carry piece, it goes in holster, round in chamber, on person, stabilizer in [ - ] bag.

If piece is "traveling" as full-time PDW, goes in (taco or ?) holster attached to inside of [ bag ], empty chamber, full mag.

Thoughts?

Gabriel Suarez
04-08-2016, 09:39 AM
I think we are missing the point. No matter. My view is handle like a regular rifle or SMG. If you feel Ok with attaching plastic clup or a "holster" to your uzi or mp5 in lieu of a safety go for it. I have made my plans and implementex them on my own PDW.

ChrisNobody
04-08-2016, 09:47 AM
Gabe....having seen it at the DMR class, the 'glock safety' absolutely makes sense in this application. It runs like an SMG as opposed to a pistol. I would highly recommend installing that manual type of safety if this is to be employed in a PDW format. I would also be excited if you would consider pursuing or at least do some additional write up on the idea of a holster carry option. Granted, I want to justify the return of the clamshell holster for other reasons, but I really think that the use of this PDW in a holster (break forward) otherwise connected via a single point sling (and probably using 22 round magazines) enables a huge benefit for doing UC / Proactive work.

coastalcop
04-08-2016, 12:37 PM
Gotta,say that with a 22 rnd mag (mandated 40) and the rmr ( backup 22 they took my primary for 3 months last shoot),this is the perfect surveillance " wait for the hit" tool. If I am going into the structure I still prefer the m4 based sbr, but waiting , covering, or tailing this thing is the bees knees.

When you are doing caselaw research 3/4 of the way through your normal day and one of the warrants guy says " hey USMS task force has a good lead on (&(&($ scroatbag, can you come along?" . It's nice to just grab the pdw and go.

As a vehicle platform (!discounting the greater penetration of rifle ) it is FAR easier to use in ANY position in the vehicle, and both you and your partners ears will thank you if you have to go hot

Gabriel Suarez
04-08-2016, 12:53 PM
So I sent in the docs and $200 some time ago for the ability to be open about this and to do a video about its use. ;)

coastalcop
04-08-2016, 01:00 PM
Excellent Gabe

Show them!!!

When I am PLANNING a hit, I still go SBR in .300. Sitting in a car for 4 hours , last minute stuff, OH ($$t When events HAPPEN. This pdw route is the way to go!!

Dark One
04-08-2016, 02:58 PM
So I sent in the docs and $200 some time ago for the ability to be open about this and to do a video about its use. ;)
Sent mine in too for my G17. I can't wait to see what your work up will be Gabe!

glocked
04-09-2016, 09:59 AM
So I sent in the docs and $200 some time ago for the ability to be open about this and to do a video about its use. ;)

Thank you!

otasan
04-17-2016, 02:20 PM
47884My Glock 17 has a homemade safety feature that keeps the slide back 6mm, disabling the firing mechanism. I have been using it in my CCW G17 since 1994.

Gabriel Suarez
04-17-2016, 03:45 PM
Sorry...I disagree vehemently.

Dorkface
04-17-2016, 03:47 PM
That's gayer then Elton John fucking a unicorn under a rainbow....

EDELWEISS
04-17-2016, 03:59 PM
47884My Glock 17 has a homemade safety feature that keeps the slide back 6mm, disabling the firing mechanism. I have been using it in my CCW G17 since 1994.

Exactly when do you feel the need for that? I cant begin to tell you how wrong that is, if youre using a holster (as you should) no additional hardware store crap is needed. Please do yourself a favor and put that pin in a grenade NOT in a Glock. I cant imagine any reason why I would want to use that??? but I'll listen to your reasoning

steve_k
04-17-2016, 04:35 PM
Hmmmm, after pulling the pin, do you shoot it or throw it?

Gabriel Suarez
04-17-2016, 06:00 PM
Back on track shall we.

A PDW is a Proactive Weapon that is carried in expectation of a short range high intensity fight, but where protocol and decorum, as well as practicality preclude carrying a larger heavier weapon such as a rifle. The PDW is used like a submachinegun. The first PDWs were based on shrunken SMGs such as the MP5 PDW, and many used special calibers such as the 5.7.

Like Cooper did with his Scout Rifle Concept, I will do with the Glock PDW. The Glock PDW is an expression of that concept by the addition of certain components to the full size Glock pistol. These components are an aid to faster shooting at close range via the attenuation of muzzle flip, as well as enhancement of accuracy to the limit of the caliber by adding additional contact points to the pistol. Given that full auto is seldom used in SMG work, as is evidenced by professional input, personal experience, and as exemplified in the Q Courses of various SMG centric units and organizations, the lack of full auto capability is not a disadvantage.

Components making up the Glock PDW:



Full size Glock Pistol (exclusion of G26 and 27).
Red Dot sighting system as developed by Suarez International
Enhanced Trigger system
Endo stock adapter with Shockwave Brace
High Capacity magazine of at least 22 rounds
Thumb safety inclusive in the weapon for use as a rifle or SMG
Threaded barrel for use with sound suppressor.


In my opinion, the PDW cannot be used as an SMG without some sort of safety mechanism inherent to the weapon (not something added from the outside). Lacking the ability to SAFE the weapon, it cannot be used easily as an SMG. If it cannot be used as an SMG it loses much of the advantage of the concept.

Dark One
04-17-2016, 06:18 PM
Doing what You mentioned Gabe pice by piece. Two G17's with PDW kits installed. Tax stamps efiled. Now saving to get the rest of the goodies!!

Dark One
04-17-2016, 06:59 PM
I will keep it with the Endo and Brace.

NV28
04-24-2016, 03:03 AM
So I sent in the docs and $200 some time ago for the ability to be open about this and to do a video about its use. ;)

Thank You Sir.

glocked
04-24-2016, 02:56 PM
Those of you taking the extra step to SBR:
Do you plan to continue using the arm brace or add a real AR stock of some kind? If so what option is small enough to not necessarily defeat the purpose of compactness?

I'd be tempted to try one of these: http://www.amazon.com/TAC-All-Purpose-Attachment-PrimeEasy-fulfilled/dp/B00L0UMMH8

EDELWEISS
04-24-2016, 03:32 PM
Forgive the thread drift for just a second--Im still playing with the "hand grip" stock idea (held on with grip pressure). Picture a AK stock (actually Ive been testing with a RPK stock held upside down, so theres still a cheek weld but room for a grip)

47968

It needs a "plate" that fits the shape of the rear of the pistol grip. Thats whats stumping me now, I dont have manufacturing abilities (Im all design oriented and I cant find a shop that wants to touch it.) The idea isnt new; back in the day, the FBI actually published the technique in their journal which they distributed to local PDs. They suggested using a flashlight as a "stock". I showed this technique in Size Matters. Back then I toyed with adding a piece of "C channel" to the end cap of a 4 D-cell maglite, as a "cup" for the grip. Your support hand holds the maglite.

A "modern" version would be a Glock spare mag holder with "C channel" on the bottom and a 33rnd mag as the "stock". Picture the UZI mag clamp without it actually "clamping" onto the grip--just your hand holding it there.

Heres the PP2000 using a magazine as a stock
47969



Before this goes too far the Glock Endo Shockwave is a proven system and the "hand grip stock" is more theory than practical. I keep bringing it up because its an potential option for the guys that dont want to carry their Glock with the Endo attached AND it has no NFA issues when used as an actual shoulder stock because its not attached. Frankly the ENDO could be made with a "C channel" instead of the "plug" then it would be outside the NFA realm as well.

*******now back to your regularly scheduled thread......

bassbones
04-24-2016, 05:32 PM
I have not tested it yet, but I'm still playing with the "Grip Stock" as well, but since the arrival of the ENDO PDW set up, I've re-built it for just the G26. The ENDO is far better. I have two ENDO set ups and they are awesome. I can only hope the 26 set up works as well, free time is still hard to find though.

JB

Housertl
04-24-2016, 10:14 PM
I'd be tempted to try one of these: http://www.amazon.com/TAC-All-Purpose-Attachment-PrimeEasy-fulfilled/dp/B00L0UMMH8

They flex a LOT. Tim at Military Arms Channel did a video a year or two back, using one of these on a G17. The Endo is definitely better.

Housertl
04-24-2016, 10:20 PM
I'm about halfway through the process of making one for my Steyr. I have acquired a strip of kydex that is molded to the backstrap of the pistol, and extends aft from under the beavertail, and downward from the bottom of the grip. The thought is to epoxy/bolt the strip to an Endo adapter and voila. The drawback I have noticed thus far is that the interface between the kydex and the backstrap of the pistol is a bit slippery, but that may fix itself with the pressure on the buttstock. I'm deployed now, so it may be a few months before I can complete it.

glocked
04-26-2016, 04:49 PM
I have not tested it yet, but I'm still playing with the "Grip Stock" as well, but since the arrival of the ENDO PDW set up, I've re-built it for just the G26. The ENDO is far better. I have two ENDO set ups and they are awesome. I can only hope the 26 set up works as well, free time is still hard to find though.

JB

Pics and details of the 26 setup please! Can go back in the "not a stock" stechkin threads we had going before.

Jackpine
05-04-2016, 11:25 AM
It's tough to be the dumbest guy in the room but here I am. One of the elements in Gabe's definition of a PDW is anticipation of a high intensity gunfight and a rifle is inappropriate for some reason(s). I get it. As I retired from LE 16 years ago, call me silly but if I have anticipation of a high intensity gunfight my next move is to leave the area. I have an AR pistol in my vehicle in the event my escape is "blocked". But I have to get to my vehicle to access it. My AR pistol does not replace or accompany my EDC.

So for my situation, why is the Glock PDW better! I may well do a Glock PDW because it looks like fun and I don't doubt it's efficacy. For me however, it's application remains a question mark.

Brent Yamamoto
05-04-2016, 12:50 PM
Some guys will often carry the Glock PDW because we its easier to carry concealed than an AR pistol. (I certainly don't always have mine at hand but I'm often in situations where I do.) Of course all things depend on the situation, but assuming you do have it with you...

The situation may dictate staying in place, running like hell, or going on the hunt. In all cases it would not hurt to have the capability the PDW provides (other than paying the price of carrying it of course). It provides some options you might otherwise not have. Shelter in place while setting up ambush. Fighting to flee the area. Taking down an active shooter...all there's are more easily accomplished with the PDW if you have it with you.

Even if you only keep it In a vehicle, the PDW is still smaller than an AR pistol and easier to maneuver. (Not saying it replaces the AR, just stating the advantage over one...the situation may or may not favor either choice).

The PDW really shines as a home defense weapon as well.

Scottman
05-04-2016, 04:33 PM
weight....... if a PDW is too heavy for the individual the user might leave it behind even though it fits into normal looking packs.

Gabriel Suarez
05-04-2016, 04:46 PM
Why oh why Lord...why must I repeat every single thing I have written every few weeks. Please Lord...teach my people to search.

Brightlightman
05-04-2016, 05:22 PM
Why oh why Lord...why must I repeat every single thing I have written every few weeks. Please Lord...teach my people to search.
Can I get a RMR mounted on my G43? What caliber is best? Where can I find a good AK? What's a good holster for appendix carry so I don't shoot myself?


*slap*

Gabriel Suarez
05-04-2016, 06:56 PM
Please read lest I simply die of utter exasperation right here with my glass of undrunk cognac.

SELECTING THE HOME/OFFICE DEFENSE PDW

Posted by Gabe Suarez at 11:50:34 AM in GABE SUAREZ ARTICLES (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/gabe-suarez/), INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/counter-terrorism/), RED DOT PISTOLS (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/tsd-custom-combat-pistols/)

http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d18fd4bf970c-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d18fd4bf970c-popup)

First the plan.

1). THE LIABILITY-FOCUSED PLAN: If you like alone, the threat level is low (a couple of urban thugs vs. an ISIS hit team), your skill dedication is low, and your plan is to hunker down and call 911 - then get a shotgun with at least a 4 round magazine shoot it once a year and hope for the best. If its been a really long time since you have lifted anything but a chicken leg on the way to your mouth and have to use those velcro shoes...get a 20 gauge.

2). THE TACTICAL GUY PLAN: Regardless of where you live, keep a full set of armor plates in a chest rig carrier, festooned with magazines, and a bump helmet with a PVS14 attached right next to your slidefire equipped famous maker PDW with the drum magazine. If they get past the concertina wire and the attack dogs, you go SEAL6 all over their ass.

3). THE MORE LIKELY PLAN: You do not want to be an "average guy" so you have some degree of skills. And whether your family is made up of combatants or bystanders, you take them into consideration. If they are combatants, they have their own weapons...if they are not, you are not going to rely on them...but still have to deal with their presence in the AO. So you will have something that you can shoot people in the face with from the bedroom to any place along the house. Your HD-PDW will be zeroed for the farthest reaches of your house...for a face shot.

All things being equal, a stocked weapon is more accurate than a non-stocked weapon. And all things being equal, having more ammo is better. And...if one can do this silently, one will do so. Face shots, ear canal shots, and back of the head/neck shots eliminate concerns over body armor...or worries about terminal ballistics. The notion of warning a home invader is the silliest thing you could ever do. You do not want them to know you are even there, nor give them the chance to turn on you. So you will hunt them in your home and eliminate them.

So...IMHO...forget shotguns...forget 308 rifles...forget anything other than an SBR. 300 BO? Sure...not a bad idea and you can suppress it. Same for 5.56 SBR. But in either case...FACE SHOTS not body shots. It is true...there is armor that will stop both rounds. How likely that YOUR bad guys will be thus equipped? I don't know...maybe you can answer that better.

But IF the armor is present, and IF you are focusing on face shots ANYWAY...why not just stay with a 9mm semiauto pseudo-SBR? Silent face shots in the dark from across the house are quite possible...the lead photo is what I am leaning toward more and more.


THE PDW CONCEPT APPLIED TO CCW PISTOLS

Posted by Gabe Suarez at 07:40:28 AM in GABE SUAREZ ARTICLES (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/gabe-suarez/), INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/counter-terrorism/), RED DOT PISTOLS (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/tsd-custom-combat-pistols/)

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With the advent of the Glock PDW the old questions come up. I will try to address these individually. At the end of the day, this is just another tool that gives you additional options.

First a history: A personal defense weapon (PDW) was originally a class of compact magazine-fed, self-loading, often select-fire firearm - essentially a hybrid between a submachine gun and a carbine. The name describes the type's original role: as a compact but powerful defensive weapon that can be carried by troops behind the front line such as military engineers, drivers, artillery crews or other non-combat assignments. These soldiers may be at risk of encountering the enemy, but rarely enough that a longer or more powerful weapon would be an unnecessary burden during their normal duties. This is an important point analogous with the armed private citizen in the post-911 era.

Initially, this role was assigned to pistols. And while we have certainly extended the capability of a service pistol with accuracy (red dot concept), and capacity, they are nonetheless enhanced further vis-a-vis the addition of a shoulder stock. As a result, during the First World War, the Mauser C96 and artillery versions of the Luger pistol were issued with attachable shoulder stock holsters, which allowed for greater range, accuracy, and repeated hits due to enhanced recoil control.

Today, the Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) concept - developed during the late 1980s - in response to a NATO request as a replacement for 919mm submachine guns. The modern PDW was true in concept to the prior ideas, but added the goal of defeating enemy body armor. As well it was desirable that it could be used conveniently by support troops, as well as a close quarters battle weapon for counter-terrorist groups.

Application: We have established that this was never intended as a front line weapon. We have established that the main salient point of this weapon is one of convenience, and portability.

The PDW is not a reactive weapon. For sake of definition, a reactive event is one that explodes on you unannounced and without any prior indication of its unfolding. Think of the sudden attack, the ambush, the sucker punch. THAT is a reactive problem. If you have any indication that the fight is about to happen, it is emphatically not a reactive event. So in that light, you will not get the PDW out of the bag as a bad guy is pointing in on you during an armed robbery. This problem must be handled with the pistol on your person.
So as a way to illustrate -

"You FIND YOURSELF in a fight with your pistol, but you GO TO the fight with your PDW".

While one can argue that it is easy to carry a folding stocked AK or an SBR M4 around every day, but the truth is that it is not. It is quite inconvenient, and being that, you will likely not adopt that as a habit. So while a Knights SR-25 would be better in a long range gunfight...but you will not be carrying this with you in everyday. That answers the , "Why not just carry a rifle" crowd. Because carrying a rifle around is inconvenient and you will not do it. You may have one in the personal vehicle...in a bag...in the trunk, but that is a far cry from "within arm's reach".

The other aspect of this is caliber. The study of human conflict is the study of measures, and countermeasures. Armor was a countermeasure to swords, and firearms were a countermeasure to armor.

THIS PART IS IMPORTANT

Measure: It was an easy argument to justify using only a rifle caliber in order to defeat armor...but the countermeasure to that was armor that is resistant to rifle bullets. And the more time passes between invention and usage, the more prolific that technology becomes. So today, it is quite easy to procure armor with plates that will resist rifle bullets. As well, the modern adversary may well be equipped with a "personal IED" strapped to his body where armor would be.

Countermeasure: Shoot them in the face. If you need to use the face shot as the objective due to modern considerations, then the rifle concept is not as necessary as it once was. Note that I am not suggesting we no longer use rifles, simply pointing out that placing a group of three or four face shots on board at parking lot distances in minimal time will be easier with a stocked pistol than with a rifle for most people.

Even teams who have access to anything they wish, are revisiting the submachinegun, suitably accurized and equipped with modern optics, just for the reasons I have described.
To recap the attributes of the PDW concept as expressed with the Glock PDW Concept:

Convenience:

1). Small, light and compact. In fact, much more so than any comparable rifle caliber weapon, or pistol caliber weapon.
2). Same manual of arms as your daily carry pistol
3). Same parts, and caliber, and magazines as your daily carry pistol
4). While I am far more an advocate of a dedicated pistol assigned to this role than an under-fire conversion, the weapon can go from pistol to PDW, or PDW to pistol, quickly.

Applicability:

1). Easy to carry with you in a briefcase, or laptop bag...specially so if a folding unit is added.
2). Does not replace the on body carry of a pistol, but it increases your lethality when facing unplanned, yet proactive defense in the workplace against a jihadist or active shooter.
3). Its compact size will increase the likelihood that you bring it with you (in the briefcase or laptop bag you will take with you anyway).
As a modern pro-active weapon for our times, in the urban role, that is at the same time effective, applicable to modern threats and convenient to rely on, this Glock PDW concept has alot going for it and few drawbacks.


AN OLD CONCEPT WHOSE TIME RETURNED

Posted by Gabe Suarez at 08:29:25 AM in GABE SUAREZ ARTICLES (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/gabe-suarez/), PISTOL GUNFIGHTING (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/gunfighting-1/), RED DOT PISTOLS (http://blog.suarezinternational.com/tsd-custom-combat-pistols/)

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Gabriel Suarez
05-04-2016, 07:49 PM
....maybe a video of a kitten?

stankasz1
05-05-2016, 05:42 AM
Thanks for this!!

gatorgrizz27
07-03-2016, 08:42 PM
I'm a bit late to the party, but I have a few questions on this concept...

1. With an "arm brace" rather than a "stock" installed, with the latest ATF rulings, should a Glock PDW be registered as an SBR? I understand the "big boy rules" about NPE's and have no problem making my own decisions about them, but if an AR pistol is legal to cross state lines and a Glock PDW is not (without authorization) that's +1 for AR pistol in my book.

2. It would appear that this is a "quick attach" system. While I see a lot of questions about carrying the complete system, it seems that it would be ideal to carry the pistol in a conventional holster, with the "arm brace" + 33 rd mag in a backpack or laptop bag. If placed in a reactive scenario, one has a tier 1 pistol with a red dot in the ideal position. If placed in an offensive scenario, the pistol could become a PDW with a simple mag change.

3. As far as the lack of a conventional safety is concerned, it seems that a regular holster worn on the belt could serve the purpose, if a light is not attached and potentially if the front right belt loop is removed. I fully agree that AIWB is the ideal position for carrying a pistol, but if an "arm brace" is attached, sliding it back to the 3:00 or 4:00 position should allow normal movement without interference.

Eric Tull
07-04-2016, 05:07 AM
I'm a bit late to the party, but I have a few questions on this concept...

1. With an "arm brace" rather than a "stock" installed, with the latest ATF rulings, should a Glock PDW be registered as an SBR? I understand the "big boy rules" about NPE's and have no problem making my own decisions about them, but if an AR pistol is legal to cross state lines and a Glock PDW is not (without authorization) that's +1 for AR pistol in my book.

If you're concerned about legalities, it's not illegal to have the brace attached to the gun. It's illegal to shoulder and fire the gun with the brace. If you want to SBR it, you can, but you definitely don't have to. In fact, my guess is that the vast majority of people who buy the PDW kit don't. Like you said, big boy rules apply for that.