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Gabriel Suarez
01-03-2016, 01:06 PM
I dug up some of my old writings on the concept. I will post them here for your enjoyment and let the discussion begin.

Gabriel Suarez
01-03-2016, 01:07 PM
THE STOCKED PISTOL - 2008

In the dim past, when the first functional self-loading pistols became available, it was examined as what we would today call a PDW (personal defense weapon). Unlike the infantry rifle, or other long gun, this was meant to defend the user and extend the capabilities of the one-handed pistol.

The first stocked self-loading pistol was the Borchardt, a clumsy but functional for the day, pistol. It incorportaed a flat detachable stock. Eventually Mauser and Luger expanded on the idea as well as Mr. Browning and Mr. Webley. In fact, it was a common accessory for military pistols of the pre-WW2 era...and subsequent designs such as the HK VP-70 and others that followed.

Because of government restrictions, having a stocked pistol requires some footwork in terms of licenses and such, but it really only costs an additional $200 for those who still live in free states. Not a big deal really. So the question is...why?

Recently, I was exposed to the concept of the pistol caliber carbine. One former international contractor mentioned how he favors such a weapon in certain environments where a full assault rifle, or a shotgun might not be desired. As well, some acquaintances of ours favor an SBR semi auto UZI for home defense, and as a compact PDW. I know another man who owns a Skorpion VZ61 pistol that has been SBRd and has a stock. But none of these aforementioned weapons have full auto capability. So in reality, the rate of fire of a semi auto Uzi is no different than that of a Glock.

The first big question I suppose is this. It is not a rifle, and only has the ballistic capability of a pistol, so why add a stock to a pistol? In my studies I have found that a stock does two things.

1). It allows a much steadier hold on the weapon than you can get from any "standard" pistol position. Steadier hold means greater long range accuracy as well as more precise short range accuracy. A pistol is no more difficult to "fire" than a rifle, but it is easier to hit with a rifle due to its four points of contact, versus only two for the pistol.
It will help you steady yourself in less time than a stockless pistol would take you so you can make the longer shots. There is no question that one can make long shots with a regular CCW gun. The issue is will a stock help you do it more often, more consistently, and faster. My answer is that it will.

2). It allows greater recoil/muzzle flip control and thus allows for a much quicker follow up shot, or shots. It will help you recover from recoil faster thus hitting more in a shorter period of time. Trust me, an additional contact point will help you do it better.

These two things cannot be denied by anyone who tries the concept.

3). Does a pistol caliber aid you over a rifle caliber? In certain locations, the answer is yes. We can debate it, but a Colt Commando inside a house will have ruinous effects on your short term hearing, the pistol will not.

One will also draw all manner of attention to you while the other one may not. One Soviet Afghan War veteran told me everyone hated the AKSU-74 “Krinkov” in Afghanistan and ditched it first chance because it was so loud.

4). Will a pistol sized rifle do the same things the stocked pistol will do? No it won't. Next.

5). Why not just go with a SBR M4 instead? You could. But the concept we are looking at can fit in a much smaller package and is lighter and thus will not likely be left behind.

You can probably put a Glock 34 and its stock in a typical sized laptop bag and take it everywhere with you...in addition to your CCW pistol which should be in the same caliber and use the same magazines.

6). And finally....guys...we need to get away from the CCW surprise gunfight for this weapon concept. It is not for that. It is for a generally proactive offensive application. Granted...it is not the best offensive weapon, but like the pocket pistol, it may the only one possible in many venues.

The next big question is where would this be an asset? I personally use a pistol for home defense. The reason is simple. There are too many people inside to reach for either a shotgun or an assault rifle. Additionally, I may have the need to move from room to room securing non-combatants, and that cannot be done with a long gun. The maneuverability of the short gun cannot be beaten in this realm.

Many years ago when I would creep around bad people's houses looking for bad guys, the MP5 and Colt Commando would often be left and I would opt for a pistol alone in order to be more maneuverable. In this environment, a stocked pistol would be the best of both worlds.

Moreover, in an NPE, or an SRE (socially restricted environment), a stocked pistol can be disassembled of the stock, and the stock can remain with you while you holster the pistol itself. Or an entire stocked pistol with several magazines can fit into a small bag. A good candidate for this would be a Glock 34. One can obtain a detachable stock for this, as well as 33 round magazines, making this a very compact and versatile PDW. Add a light mount, and there is very little that cannot be done with this weapon inside its ballistic limits.

Applications? Think of those times, whatever they may be, when you would love to have a rifle, but going to get it would not be possible. True the Stocked Pistol PDW is not a rifle, but I will bet it would have come in very handy in Mumbai.

Gabriel Suarez
01-03-2016, 01:12 PM
THE STOCKED PISTOL REVISITED FOR 2014

Posted by Gabe Suarez at 10:01:58 AM in GABE SUAREZ ARTICLES
(http://blog.suarezinternational.com/gabe-suarez/)

file:///C:\Users\Chris-U\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002 .jpg
http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01bb0794e878970d-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01bb0794e878970d-popup)

In the dim past, when the first functional self-loading pistols became available, it was examined as what we would today call a PDW (personal defense weapon). Unlike the infantry rifle, or other long gun, this was meant to defend the user and extend the capabilities of the "one-handed pistol".


The first stocked self-loading pistol was the Borchardt, a clumsy but functional for the day, pistol. It incorportaed a flat detachable stock. Eventually Mauser and Luger expanded on the idea as well as Mr. Browning and Mr. Webley. In fact, it was a common accessory for military pistols of the pre-WW2 era...and subsequent designs such as the HK VP-70 and others that followed.


Because of our ever protective government, having a true stocked pistol requires licenses and an additional $200 for those in free states. But with the advent of the American With Disabilities Act creating a true "protected class", and that in turn giving rise to a very clever work around in the form of the "Pistol Stabilization Braces", even that is a non-issue. And I want to stipulate that I am not referring to the ridiculous RONI conversions. Rather simply to something that can be added instantly, without tools or drama, and be deployed immediately.
http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/37605-2/stocked_BHP_0803.jpg (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d079b4f6970c-popup)


So the question is...why?


The first big question I suppose is this. It is not a rifle, and only has the ballistic capability of a pistol, so why add a stock to a pistol? In my studies I have found that a stock does two things.


1). It allows a much steadier hold on the weapon than you can get from any "standard" pistol position. Steadier hold means greater long range accuracy, as well as more precise short range accuracy. A pistol is no more difficult to "fire" than a rifle, but it is easier to hit with a rifle due to its four points of contact, versus only two for the pistol.


It will help you steady yourself in less time than a stockless pistol so you can make the longer shots quicker. There is no question that one can make long shots with a regular pistol, specially if it has the correct red dot systems installed by our organization. The point is that a stock will allow you to do it more often, more consistently, and faster.


2). It allows greater recoil/muzzle flip control and thus allows for a much quicker follow up shot, or shots. It will help you recover from recoil faster thus putting more damage on the bad guy in a shorter period of time. And for those who would lecture me on recoil control, please do not. Trust me, an additional contact point will help you do it better.


These two things cannot be denied by anyone who tries the concept.


3). Does a pistol caliber aid you over a rifle caliber? In certain locations, the answer is yes. Keeping a small bag, carry-on, or backpack with an extra pistol, or even the stock alone is far easier than lugging around a full size and full weight rifle or SMG.


4). Why not just go with a SBR AR or an SBR AK instead? You could. But the concept we are looking at can fit in a much smaller package and thus will not likely be left behind. Why was the MP5 PDW not the same exact size as the full sized MP5...or HK 53? Because the bigger weapons were left behind in the environments where the much smaller PDW would not.


You can probably put a Suarez Red-Dot Equipped Glock 34 and its stock in a typical sized laptop bag and take it everywhere with you...in addition to your CCW/EDC pistol which should be in the same caliber and use the same magazines.


5). And finally....guys...we need to understand the application. This is not for the "CCW surprise gunfight". The entire PDW Concept (Personal Defense Weapon) is for a generally proactive offensive application. The application is for everyday use by those not intentionally going in harm's way, but who may be visited by harm on occasion. One will have some warning of the need for the PDW in contrast to not having it for the quick draw and get-off-the-x shot.


Granted...it is not the best offensive weapon, but like the pocket pistol, it may the only one possible in many venues.


In an NPE, or an SRE (socially restricted environment), a stocked pistol can be disassembled of the stock, and the stock can remain with you while you holster the pistol itself. Or an entire stocked pistol with several magazines can fit into a lap top bag. A smaller bag will not receive the same attention as a larger bag.
A good candidate for this would be a Glock 34. One can obtain a detachable stock for this, as well as 33 round magazines, making this a very compact and versatile PDW. Add a Surefire Light, a red dot installation, and there is very little that cannot be done with this weapon inside its ballistic limits.


Applications? Think of those times, whatever they may be, when you would love to have a rifle, but bringing it along, or going to get it would not be possible. True the Stocked Pistol PDW is not a rifle, but I will bet it would have come in very handy in Mumbai, Nairobi, and a few other places.



http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2014/10/the-stocked-pistol-revisited.html#.VomKclL096I

Gabriel Suarez
01-03-2016, 01:13 PM
http://gunlab.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/DSC_4345sc.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/braudo/Armas%20cortas/CIMG2034.jpg

Gabriel Suarez
01-03-2016, 01:17 PM
http://www.gunsandammo.com/files/2012/01/Model-1855-Pistol-Carbine.jpg

http://www.williammaloney.com/Aviation/WestPointMilitaryMuseum/AutoloadingPistols/images/04MauserBroomhandlePistol.jpg

Gabriel Suarez
01-03-2016, 01:38 PM
46353

PRESENT DAY - THE BRACED PISTOL

So now we come to 2016. As we can see, our group has been considering this for many years. What is available now was not available in 2004 or 2008. Thanks to a confluence of circumstances we have something today of interest to this study. The Braced Pistol.

The ADA created a fear of denying ostensibly handicapped people anything. And thus was born the "Sig Brace". Although I have yet to see anyone use the Sig Brace as intended except in Sig youtube videos, it was approved due to the fear of the ADA. At least in my opinion. The Sig Brace was clumsy and heavy and I instantly disliked it with its rubbery texture and tunnel-like construction with velcro everywhere. And it was wholly unnecessary on any weapon that required a buffer tube to function. Nonetheless, it was bought in droves by those not wanting to write a $200 check...or those living in lands where that was not an option.

And then we happened to handle an Endo stock attachment kit. This was intended to attach a stock to a Glock once it had been NFA'd. Hmmm. The image we saw was sporting a Sig Brace. Horribly ugly and oversized in my opinion. But I had also received a Shockwave "brace" from someone who wanted me to review it. And those who recall the commercial, "We got chocolate in the peanut butter".

With a low mounted Red Dot (another development we pioneered in 2009) the sighting eye relief is irrelevant and one can get a perfect red dot sight picture where before the irons were too close to the eyes. It is 20.5" with a threaded barrel and can be disassembled - suppressor, pistol, and stock, in less than one minute to be stashed in a survival kit easily transported through the halls of corporate America.

The resulting Glock PDW is not something we will be selling, but merely a collection of assemblies that exceed the sum of its parts. You have a weapon that mimics the stocked pistol, with the accuracy enhancements discussed, as well as the volume of fire capability of any semi auto shoulder fired pistol caliber carbine. Using the Shockwave Arm Brace negates the negative aspects of the Sig Brace making an exceedingly light and handy weapon that is faster and easier to use than ANY semi auto pistol caliber carbine on the market whether in rifle form or in braced pistol form. It beats out the Uzi, the MPX from SIG, the Czech EVO, and even any semi auto MP5 on several levels. It uses existing magazines of which there are an increasing number of manufacturers (Glock, Magpul, and ETS)...and uses mostly the same manual of arms your CCW EDC weapon - the Glock uses.

And all of that...in the age of the proliferation of Islamic Terrorism in America where anyone may be caught behind the lines of the next Jihad party...this is all very interesting...to say the least.

EDELWEISS
01-03-2016, 02:28 PM
Well boss you KNOW how I feel! Its not only another tool in the tool box, its one you are likely to have with you.... I havent tested the Endo/Shockwave combo yet; but it looks promising. I am however more interested in the NOT Stock concept. The admitably limited testing Ive done with crude (very crude) designs has been faster to deploy on a "regular" carry gun (as opposed to carrying a second gun for the Endo/Blade combo). Either way a braced pistol enhances the pistol just like the RMR did, together they are even greater.

GemJedi
01-03-2016, 03:12 PM
Just out of curiosity sake, lets assume a terror attack like the one talked about by the San Bernardino terrorists where they planned to shut down a highway with pipe bombs and then walk down the road shooting the trapped drivers. You are ten cars back so maybe 120 feet away from the shooter. Your car is trapped by cars ahead and behind.

Would you take the time to deploy the pistol stock, or use the time to get out of the car and get to the other side of the outside of the car and then use the hood of the car to brace your shot? This seems like a fair scenario to evaluate a longer shot and whether one would benefit from this type of system.

Gabriel Suarez
01-03-2016, 03:30 PM
Would you take the time to deploy the pistol stock, or use the time to get out of the car and get to the other side of the outside of the car and then use the hood of the car to brace your shot? This seems like a fair scenario to evaluate a longer shot and whether one would benefit from this type of system.

A car to car fight at distance is not the place for ANY pistol caliber, just like inside CQB is not the place for sniper rifles. In my own PV I have an M4 quite handy. Each weapon has its niche.

DogDoc
01-03-2016, 03:32 PM
The Endostock is interesting and does all the good things that a stock does. I haven't played with the Endo/Shockwave combo but the idea Paper Shredder is toying with in the Glock Stechkin Project thread seems like it would be lighter and quicker to deploy.

There are two ways to avoid NFA issues; a stock that isn't attached (like what Paper Shredder is doing) or something that is attached and isn't a stock (i.e. Endo/Shockwave). The thing must be very light and instantly deployable. Seems like one that was held on only with grip pressure would fit the bill better.

Doc

Brent Yamamoto
01-03-2016, 03:33 PM
It doesn't take long to attach but it's still too slow in a fast developing situation. I'd suggest a pistol with the brace "permanently" attached. It's perfect for a vehicle.

Edited to add: I should have said it's perfect for carrying in a vehicle.

I agree with Gabe that a car to car fight, a rifle is the thing to have...and I always have a rifle in the truck.

In a car, the best thing to do is DRIVE. If driving isn't an option, and you have to exit the vehicle AND there's time to grab the rifle, this is best.

But...if you don't leave a rifle in your vehicle, it can be a PITA to carry it in and out every day. The stocked pistol will be easier to take in and out on a daily basis...lighter, fits in a smaller package, and is lower profile. It may also be faster to deploy than a rifle (depending how you carry these things of course).

I rifle is always, always my first choice. But the stocked pistol is easier for some things.

Gabriel Suarez
01-03-2016, 03:49 PM
There are two ways to avoid NFA issues; a stock that isn't attached (like what Paper Shredder is doing) or something that is attached and isn't a stock (i.e. Endo/Shockwave). The thing must be very light and instantly deployable. Seems like one that was held on only with grip pressure would fit the bill better.

Doc

Well...either one I suppose.

They both benefit from a red dot which is my point in discussing it. One is a concept that has not been fabricated (vaporware?)...the other a group of products you can buy right now from the various manufacturers (Endo Adapter, Shockwave Arm Brace, any pistol tube...for about $100 total).

steve_k
01-03-2016, 04:21 PM
After trying out the Endo/Shockwave combo this weekend, I want to add it to my gear for both Glock and AR pistol. Being able punch out a 2" group my first time to bat with it had me sold. It would be nice to be able to carry a second gun fully assembled with the brace, but just having it on hand in a bag would be great.

EDELWEISS
01-03-2016, 05:18 PM
Well...either one I suppose.

They both benefit from a red dot which is my point in discussing it. One is a concept that has not been fabricated (vaporware?)...the other a group of products you can buy right now from the various manufacturers (Endo Adapter, Shockwave Arm Brace, any pistol tube...for about $100 total).

Yep as much as I might like the NOT stock concept, the Endo/Shockwave is HERE

blastjv
01-03-2016, 05:50 PM
I guess the question in my mind (and I'm not denigrating the idea, just trying to understand it's niche) is - In what situations would one choose a pre-assembled Glock/RMR/Endo/Shockwave rig over an AR Pistol? I understand the ways in which the Endo rig improves the performance of a pistol, I just don't yet see why you would keep one assembled, when one could keep an AR pistol instead (as in a vehicle, for example).

H60DoorGunner
01-03-2016, 06:34 PM
I guess the question in my mind (and I'm not denigrating the idea, just trying to understand it's niche) is - In what situations would one choose a pre-assembled Glock/RMR/Endo/Shockwave rig over an AR Pistol? I understand the ways in which the Endo rig improves the performance of a pistol, I just don't yet see why you would keep one assembled, when one could keep an AR pistol instead (as in a vehicle, for example).

I wouldn't carry an AR pistol in my backpack to class, but I would carry a stock for the pistol.

I also won't try and sneak an AR pistol onto a military base. But (not admitting I've ever done such a thing...) my 19 never gets found, and a stock that doesn't look exactly like a stock to the casual observer, could slip in unnoticed.

tact999
01-03-2016, 06:37 PM
My question as well, but it's like walking on egg shells when such questions are posed.

DogDoc
01-03-2016, 06:46 PM
It doesn't take long to attach but it's still too slow in a fast developing situation. I'd suggest a pistol with the brace "permanently" attached. It's perfect for a vehicle.

Edited to add: I should have said it's perfect for carrying in a vehicle.

I agree with Gabe that a car to car fight, a rifle is the thing to have...and I always have a rifle in the truck...

Having it already assembled fills the PDW niche beautifully...truck gun, nightstand gun etc...

But One of my important goals is enhancing the Glock in my holster in an instant in an active shooter situation. I'll surely pick up the Endo/shockwave parts for my RRMd nightstand Glock (the SIG ACP is a joke by comparison) but I'd still like something lighter, quicker to deploy, and more innocuous looking for the mall.

Another plus of Papershredder's vaporware-not-a-stock idea is it doesn't look much like a weapon should someone check your bag. :)

Doc

DogDoc
01-03-2016, 06:49 PM
By the way Gabe (and not to derail things) do you like the Shockwave for the AR pistol or are you sticking with the padded buffer tube?

Doc

Gabriel Suarez
01-03-2016, 06:54 PM
Lol...if they check your bag, they will check you too bro.


Having it already assembled fills the PDW niche beautifully...truck gun, nightstand gun etc...

But One of my important goals is enhancing the Glock in my holster in an instant in an active shooter situation. I'll surely pick up the Endo/shockwave parts for my RRMd nightstand Glock (the SIG ACP is a joke by comparison) but I'd still like something lighter, quicker to deploy, and more innocuous looking for the mall.

Another plus of Papershredder's vaporware-not-a-stock idea is it doesn't look much like a weapon should someone check your bag. :)

Doc

Gabriel Suarez
01-03-2016, 06:56 PM
Well...a buffer tube only M4 pistol is not a grey area. I suppise it doesnt hurt but i gave no use for it on an M4 pistol. M4 pistol...Glock Pdw are not comparable IMHO.

By the way Gabe (and not to derail things) do you like the Shockwave for the AR pistol or are you sticking with the padded buffer tube?

Doc

steve_k
01-03-2016, 06:56 PM
By the way Gabe (and not to derail things) do you like the Shockwave for the AR pistol or are you sticking with the padded buffer tube?

Doc

Curious to hear as well as I am now considering adding the shockwave to my AR pistol.

blastjv
01-03-2016, 07:12 PM
I wouldn't carry an AR pistol in my backpack to class, but I would carry a stock for the pistol.

I also won't try and sneak an AR pistol onto a military base. But (not admitting I've ever done such a thing...) my 19 never gets found, and a stock that doesn't look exactly like a stock to the casual observer, could slip in unnoticed.
Sure, but several respected members here are advocating that this be kept assembled (not carrying the stock separately) which is what I'm wondering about here.

blastjv
01-03-2016, 07:18 PM
Lol...if they check your bag, they will check you too bro.Amazingly, I've been to many places where the checked any bags/purses, but anyone without a bag walked right in. Of course I don't know what they'd do if they found an unexplained 'device'... Your point stands, though - you can't expect to pass one and not the other!

Brent Yamamoto
01-03-2016, 07:34 PM
Sure, but several respected members here are advocating that this be kept assembled (not carrying the stock separately) which is what I'm wondering about here.

Everything is "it depends". I will probably buy a second set to leave unattached. It would not be ideal assembling this under pressure but if there is time it will absolutely benefit your shooting.

blastjv
01-03-2016, 07:48 PM
Of course. What I'm trying to get at is - What does it depend ON? In a REactive scenario, we know it's all about the pistol on your belt. In a PROactive scenario, the Endo setup would be more effective in most ways than the regular pistol, but when would one prefer to have the Endo rig over an AR pistol? I feel like if I'm reaching for a PDW-type weapon, I'd want the 5.56 or 300 BLK AR, but I may be overlooking something.

(All capitalization meant for emphasis and clarification. I'm not trying to get shitty with anyone.)

Yondering
01-03-2016, 08:07 PM
but when would one prefer to have the Endo rig over an AR pistol?

When you need/want to carry something light weight and unobtrusive. A 6 lb AR pistol in a backpack in some situations is simply not as convenient or practical as ~1 lb of thin plastic arm brace. Even the lightest AR pistol ever built is still significantly heavier and larger than a Shockwave Glock.

DogDoc
01-03-2016, 08:08 PM
Of course. What I'm trying to get at is - What does it depend ON? In a REactive scenario, we know it's all about the pistol on your belt. In a PROactive scenario, the Endo setup would be more effective in most ways than the regular pistol, but when would one prefer to have the Endo rig over an AR pistol? I feel like if I'm reaching for a PDW-type weapon, I'd want the 5.56 or 300 BLK AR, but I may be overlooking something.

(All capitalization meant for emphasis and clarification. I'm not trying to get shitty with anyone.)

I think any time you're indoors a pistol caliber would be preferable. The only exception might be an armored opponent. But then that's why we practice head shots.

steve_k
01-03-2016, 08:08 PM
It might just come down to "the best gun for the job is the one you have on you". Deciding factors could be space available for storing and transporting your weapon(s), mode(s) of transportation, and how much you can carry on your person such as holstered and/or bag or backpack.

I like to have my AR rifle or pistol when I take road trips, but if I was going in to less gun friendly areas I would probably use the Endo/Shockwave set up to keep my luggage more low profile. Ideally it would be nice to have it always attached to a gun, but the next best thing would to have it available for attachment.

Just my thoughts and opinions after getting to try one out this weekend.

Brent Yamamoto
01-03-2016, 08:39 PM
Of course. What I'm trying to get at is - What does it depend ON? In a REactive scenario, we know it's all about the pistol on your belt. In a PROactive scenario, the Endo setup would be more effective in most ways than the regular pistol, but when would one prefer to have the Endo rig over an AR pistol? I feel like if I'm reaching for a PDW-type weapon, I'd want the 5.56 or 300 BLK AR, but I may be overlooking something.

(All capitalization meant for emphasis and clarification. I'm not trying to get shitty with anyone.)

This is a totally fair question.

There should be no doubt that a rifle beats a pistol in almost every way...except in size, weight, and portability. The strength of the pistol is that it is small and can be carried concealed. It can be carried/used in places a rifle cannot. (Thus it is a compromise, although usually a necessary one.) It is also handier in tight spaces. The stocked pistol is a hybrid, in-between niche but the same arguments apply.

46357

For me it boils down to portability and mobility/handling.

The stocked pistol is lighter and smaller than an AR pistol. It is lower profile and can more easily be carried in a bag, if one is so inclined.

In a vehicle, the stocked pistol is easier to manipulate, access and fire. It can more easily be fired one handed. It's also easier to take to and from the vehicle day in and out, if that is an issue for you.

If you are able to keep a rifle in your vehicle 100% of the time, you may have less use for the stocked pistol. If you have time and space to access and use the rifle, that is a better choice.

The stocked pistol shines in those times when a rifle is harder to access/use than a rifle. It does NOT replace the rifle, it's a useful supplement. It's a viable option for those who find it difficult to carry/stow/access a rifle.

On a recent road trip, I had both my AR pistol and stocked pistol in my truck. Both were in easy reach. If I had to get out of my vehicle and fight, it is not difficult for me to grab my AR...and that is what I would do. But it is still easier and faster to grab the stocked pistol, and that is what I would do if the additional speed was necessary.

Again it's not a replacement for the AR pistol, but it is a simple investment for anyone to experiment with. I think anyone who owns both will intuitively recognize which one to grab under the circumstances.

Brent Yamamoto
01-03-2016, 08:49 PM
Another argument for the stocked pistol: it is very easy for others to use.

My mother has difficulty manipulating the slide of a Glock, as do many women. (Personally I think this has more to do with mindset then with strength, but whatever the cause, it is an issue.) yet she had no problem whatsoever racking the slide with the brace attached and shouldered.

I maintain that there is no good reason for this. :)

Nevertheless, the fact remains, and I know a good number of women will have the same experience.

While I would prefer that all family members receive training and develop the requisite skills, the reality is most will not do so. But the stocked Glock is one tool that could be easily used by anyone with a minimal level of training.

Thus it makes a great deal of sense to me to carry both an AR pistol and a stocked Glock in a vehicle.

earl54
01-04-2016, 09:52 AM
Middle to late 70's tested a bunch (all the USG could come up with)of small full autos for hostage entry work. They had to be accurate,and small/light. None were usefull to us. At that time we did not do that " it sucks to be a hostage thing ", ended up using BHP- 20rnd magazine and another 20rnds in a forearm holder. Glock, RDS, and a lightweight stock would have been much more effective. 3/4 point of contact hold would have made accurate shots faster and more accurate.

Gabriel Suarez
01-04-2016, 10:11 AM
"BHP- 20rnd magazine and another 20rnds in a forearm holder"

I think I know the group in question. Today a 33 round Glk 17 with an RMR. Same idea. The stock/brace concept just adds more capabilities. ;)

EDELWEISS
01-04-2016, 11:05 AM
So Ive been playing (doing some dry drills) with my Endo on a G35 and my Glock AR9K (MP5Klone). Heres what Im thinking--Theres a place for both just as theres a place for a SMG/PCC and a 556/300Blk AR Pistol/SBR. When the ORIGINAL Stocked Pistols were "fashionable" so were SMGs. TODAY the Endo Glock combo is small and light. It IS lighter than the AR9K, its also a bit smaller, and maybe less "bulky"; I think the AR9K feels better to fight with OR maybe it just feels more familiar in this role (time will tell with use).

Honestly I like the Endo Glock option. It may replace the AR9K for fast trips when its midnite and you just remembered you forgot milk. It may even replace it for those all day shopping tours when YOU are there to be the bag carrier first and the Armored Fighting Vehicle second. BUT there are times when the AR9K or even a FULL size AR pistol (9mm or 556/300Blk) will be the back up to a Glock on my belt-like the next time the BLM crowd decides they need room to destroy.

Pocket Pistol
Concealment Pistol
Fighting Pistol
STOCKED Pistol (or pistol brace carried separately)
Mini/Covert SMG
Fighting SMG
SBRd Rifle / AR Pistol
Fighting Carbine
Fighting RIFLE (308)
Precision Rifle
LMG / Belt Fed

Its an ADDITION to the Armory. Can you live without it? SURE or maybe MAYBE, in the same way you can live without a fighting shotgun or a precision rifle. Your personal needs are determined by your activities and location. Is there room for improvement? Yeah I think so; but its all fantasy for now. Id love to have a "stock" that could be fitted to the pistol and folded/collapsed so the pistol could still be carried and used as a pistol until the stock was needed. Id like a slimmer version that didn't rely on a buffer tube. BUT NONE OF THOSE EXIST NOW--THE ENDO DOES!

Shawn McCarver
01-24-2016, 11:45 AM
The BB6 uses a "stock" that does not attach, presumably creating no legal issues.

This article is about the pistol:

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/specials/trade-shows-2015/IWA-2015/pistols/BB-Techs-BB6-semi-automatic-pistol/

A more complete description of the "stock" for the BB6 begins three paragraphs from the end of the article. A picture of the stock is in the article, and clicking on the picture enlarges the picture, allowing a closer inspection of the stock.

Also note that this pistol utilizes a "socket" to allow instant installation and removal of the red dot optic, in the proper location, ahead of the rear sight. The socket is demonstrated in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUAfPWm1kpo

And, no - I am not associated in any way with the manufacturer or distributor. I just found it interesting and thought I would pass it on to the members here.

bassbones
01-24-2016, 06:17 PM
Im loving the endo/glock set up, the only problem I'm having is reaching the mag release.

JB

Brent Yamamoto
01-24-2016, 06:30 PM
Im loving the endo/glock set up, the only problem I'm having is reaching the mag release.

JB

The manual of arms is a little different once you add the brace. Just use the support hand. You can still do it one handed if you have to but short of an injury, just use the support hand.

Gabriel Suarez
01-24-2016, 08:14 PM
Caracal = Hadji Pistol

gmorgan
01-25-2016, 03:22 AM
TFI

blastjv
01-25-2016, 05:12 AM
TFIWTF is TFI? You post that a lot.

coastalcop
01-25-2016, 05:38 AM
WTF is TFI? You post that a lot.

usually "Tagged For Interest" though his might be different as "This F@#$@$ Interesting" ;)

blastjv
01-25-2016, 07:56 AM
Isn't it easier to just use the drop down box at the top to subscribe to the thread without cluttering up the thread?

Mushinto
01-28-2016, 09:58 PM
TFI = Thanks For the Information.

ML

SqueeDAB
01-29-2016, 01:05 AM
Like Brent said, use support hand to activate mag release. You'll likely need to strip the mag anyway (at least I have when using an ENDO modified for a Gen 4 Glock 17.

SergeantX
02-09-2016, 05:56 PM
Will this work with a Gen4? I saw the listing says Gen 2 and 3...