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Gabriel Suarez
12-01-2015, 01:39 PM
45924

An Arm-brace of sorts on a Glock.

Grey area perhaps

Brent Yamamoto
12-01-2015, 01:46 PM
I considered the Endo stock awhile back but dismissed it due to bulk of an actual stock, or even worse the sig brace. But I had forgotten all about it by the time the shockwave came out. Hmm

Gabriel Suarez
12-01-2015, 02:00 PM
And apparently it is a non-stock. Some verbiage about not permitted to be fired from the shoulder yadda yadda, but I doubt that will be any sort of an issue of concern. I ordered one. We will see what we see.

Brent Yamamoto
12-01-2015, 02:16 PM
This will be a good test on a 357 I think

EDELWEISS
12-01-2015, 02:21 PM
I like Papershredder's idea better; but Im happy to see options. As for grey, well its only grey until asshats start posing with it on youtube....

chad newton
12-01-2015, 02:21 PM
How do you change the magazine? Is it attached?

kssoftwareman
12-01-2015, 02:30 PM
This looks kind of interesting. With a good Red Dot this could make for some nice long distance pistol work. Looking forward to seeing more on it.

Scottman
12-01-2015, 02:53 PM
how long is that set up and how wide?

Thank you

EDELWEISS
12-01-2015, 02:56 PM
How do you change the magazine? Is it attached?

Change mags as usual, it has a "stud" that goes in the hole behind the mag well

Gabriel Suarez
12-01-2015, 02:56 PM
I don't know...less thick than a SIG arm brace.

chad newton
12-01-2015, 02:57 PM
And apparently it is a non-stock. Some verbiage about not permitted to be fired from the shoulder yadda yadda, but I doubt that will be any sort of an issue of concern. I ordered one. We will see what we see.
That could be kinda cool, theoretically could be hung from the shoulder or single point. Definetly add some stability for those longer shots. Would be a really cool addition to a fully auto 17.

EDELWEISS
12-01-2015, 02:58 PM
how long is that set up and how wide?

Thank you

Length is adjustable to some degree by set screws so dont expect to move it a lot. Its just a tad bit thicker than a buffer tube

chad newton
12-01-2015, 02:58 PM
Change mags as usual, it has a "stud" that goes in the hole behind the mag well
10-4.........

EDELWEISS
12-01-2015, 03:01 PM
How'bout this on a G20 with a 6" barrel?

Scottman
12-01-2015, 03:02 PM
10.4 I wonder on the weight too

blastjv
12-01-2015, 03:05 PM
I, too, like PaperShredder's design better, but since this is available now, it's worth checking out. Do you still hate the idea of Shockwave when it's on an AR pistol, Gabe? I've been really very happy with mine, and just bought a second one for a 300 BLK build I've begun.

Gabriel Suarez
12-01-2015, 03:10 PM
I, too, like PaperShredder's design better, but since this is available now, it's worth checking out. Do you still hate the idea of Shockwave when it's on an AR pistol, Gabe? I've been really very happy with mine, and just bought a second one for a 300 BLK build I've begun.


I don't know if it is needed on a AR Pistol. I use the buffer tube quite well and the advantage of a stock is in shooting from prone. In CQB it can be totally collapsed. On a Glock it could work the same way but the presence of it...the Shockwave...is in dissimulation of it being a stock and more a "brace".

But that is me and my preference.

EDELWEISS
12-01-2015, 03:12 PM
I don't know if it is needed on a AR Pistol. I use the buffer tube quite well and the advantage of a stock is in shooting from prone. In CQB it can be totally collapsed. On a Glock it could work the same way but the presence of it...the Shockwave...is in dissimulation of it being a stock and more a "brace".

But that is me and my preference.

You can use THIS with just the buffer for even less bulk

Scottman
12-01-2015, 03:21 PM
or the thordsen buffer kit right? I wonder how they all compare in width and weight

EDELWEISS
12-01-2015, 03:27 PM
or the thordsen buffer kit right? I wonder how they all compare in width and weight

Im pretty sure the Thorsen is much fatter.

Ive been toying with clamping a mag holder onto the buffer to hold a spare mag

Yondering
12-01-2015, 04:06 PM
How'bout this on a G20 with a 6" barrel?

Send me one for T&E and I'll let you know. :grin:

t15
12-01-2015, 08:14 PM
Please do not use an endo adapter with only a AR buffer.. The pistol trick works with an AR because the buffer assembly is needed for function. The endo plus stabilizer combo can be argued because you are using the arm stabilizer for its intended purpose. Remove the stabilizer and you have just added a stock to your glock.

I would also suggest keeping the Velcro straps that are included with stabilizers on at ALL TIMES.

CR Williams
12-01-2015, 08:36 PM
how long is that set up and how wide?

Thank you

The Shockwave is about 3/8 inches wide if I remember right (I have two) and the tube is a pistol buffer tube...7 inches, about? Something like that. If it's a KAK tube there are some dimples in it so that you can set the Shockwave with an Allen-head screw to set lengths. The screw is also what locks it against other buffer tubes. It can at the least provide a cheek index/3rd contact point or help lock it by friction on the forearm with a one-hand grip. Other than that...it's interesting and I'll be looking for Gabe's evaluation of it.

CR Williams
12-01-2015, 08:38 PM
Please do not use an endo adapter with only a AR buffer.. The pistol trick works with an AR because the buffer assembly is needed for function. The endo plus stabilizer combo can be argued because you are using the arm stabilizer for its intended purpose. Remove the stabilizer and you have just added a stock to your glock.

I would also suggest keeping the Velcro straps that are included with stabilizers on at ALL TIMES.

FYI, Shockwaves don't come with straps. I've not gotten any with the ones I ordered, anyway. You have to furnish your own. Maker says friction on the forearm is sufficient to maintain the bracing.

WarGoat
12-02-2015, 05:16 AM
I am not a fan of the ENDO adapter. The angle of the stock is weird and none of us could get a proper sight picture with iron sights.

A pistol with RDS should make it a little better.

In regards to the Shockwave, I was able to fire an AR15 9mm pistol with it at 10 yards with the blade against my inner forearm as instructed. It's uncomfortable, but it works.

The Shockwave on a Glock might be pretty good.

coastalcop
12-02-2015, 05:37 AM
Ok "buffer tube" is not needed (doesn't need to catch bolt/spring) one hole in side of tube somewhere around midpoint. Insert premade spring plunger button in hole (like on your pull apart extendable awnings you get at the sporting goods store. Matching series of holes in shockwave on same side.

Instant adjustment for differing lengths of forearm

just random thoughts

Gabriel Suarez
12-02-2015, 05:45 AM
I was able to fire an AR15 9mm pistol with it at 10 yards with the blade against my inner forearm as instructed. It's uncomfortable, but it works.

The Shockwave on a Glock might be pretty good.

I don't anyone is intending to use it like an "arm gun".

Rex G
12-02-2015, 09:49 AM
Interesting; I have been thinking about the Endo Tactical product, off and on, perhaps to use as a glorified sling mount, as I mentioned in a post in October, and perhaps with something like the Thorsden/CAA device added to it, to serve as a third point of contact. A nearby gun store has gotten into NFA in a big way, and I was hoping to be able to examine the Endo Tactical device first-hand.

The set-up in Gabe's photo catches my attention, due to the Shockwave's apparently low bulk factor, compared to other arm braces I have seen.

An AR pistol has my attention, but my employer will not let me qual with an AR, unless it is a 16"-20" rifle, whereas several Glocks are approved primary duty pistols, and others are OK'ed as "back-up"/personal-time pistols. An RDS would be a technical policy violation, if on a pistol, but at least the weapon, itself, would be authorized. (I am expected to qual with any weapon I will use to defend myself or others, with home-defense being a recognized exception. Nothing in policy prohibits braces or slings on pistols.)

I am wondering about the durability of the Endo Tactical device's attachment points, in the event of a fall onto the weapon, or other type of dynamic impact.

I look forward to the continuing evaluation.

CR Williams
12-02-2015, 10:14 AM
Ok "buffer tube" is not needed (doesn't need to catch bolt/spring) one hole in side of tube somewhere around midpoint. Insert premade spring plunger button in hole (like on your pull apart extendable awnings you get at the sporting goods store. Matching series of holes in shockwave on same side.

Instant adjustment for differing lengths of forearm

just random thoughts

Might be consider as SBR construction by certain people. Only drawback I see to it.

H60DoorGunner
12-02-2015, 10:28 AM
A RMR, and a full-auto selector would make for an interesting PDWish kind of weapon.

Ive been considering getting my class III dealer license, just so I could build one for myself.

Yondering
12-02-2015, 11:33 AM
I am not a fan of the ENDO adapter. The angle of the stock is weird and none of us could get a proper sight picture with iron sights.


Can you clarify what the issue was specifically? Is the cheek weld too high or too low? From the pics I would've guessed it to give more of a chin weld and an easy sight picture, but haven't seen one in person.

WarGoat
12-02-2015, 01:10 PM
I don't anyone is intending to use it like an "arm gun".

Ah, I misread the intent of t15's comment.


Can you clarify what the issue was specifically? Is the cheek weld too high or too low? From the pics I would've guessed it to give more of a chin weld and an easy sight picture, but haven't seen one in person.

We weren't able to see the iron sights while the stock was shouldered.

I don't think there was a cheek or chin weld among any of the people who tested it with me.

I should get another one and do another review. I wish I had registered a Gen 3 instead of a Gen 4, all of my RMRs are on Gen 3 slides.

t15
12-02-2015, 01:39 PM
Ah, I misread the intent of t15's comment.



We weren't able to see the iron sights while the stock was shouldered.

I don't think there was a cheek or chin weld among any of the people who tested it with me.

I should get another one and do another review. I wish I had registered a Gen 3 instead of a Gen 4, all of my RMRs are on Gen 3 slides.


I took the plunge and did the endo with a stamp. Using a CTR stock and a tsd slide, I measured the distance from top of stock to the center of rmr. It is literally the exact same height as an a3/a4 AR with aimpoint micro and lower 1/3 cowitness mount. No problem using suoressor height irons. I could see it being difficult with standard height sites.

Honestly its sweet, but a novelty when considering nfa rules as your pistol is now an sbr and can't be concealed etc.

X300 makes a great forward grip (using silencer to avoid blowing thumb off) and a pressure switch makes for the ultimate 1 handed setup. Very light weight and transition is fast. If you have limited function/1 good arm, this would be the best setup with the pressure switch and low bore weight short of maybe a p90 with some custom tape switch.

Slsort of fragile, would not trust a 1 point sling for anything serious.

Housertl
12-02-2015, 02:43 PM
I took the plunge and did the endo with a stamp. Using a CTR stock and a tsd slide, I measured the distance from top of stock to the center of rmr. It is literally the exact same height as an a3/a4 AR with aimpoint micro and lower 1/3 cowitness mount. No problem using suoressor height irons. I could see it being difficult with standard height sites.

Honestly its sweet, but a novelty when considering nfa rules as your pistol is now an sbr and can't be concealed etc.

X300 makes a great forward grip (using silencer to avoid blowing thumb off) and a pressure switch makes for the ultimate 1 handed setup. Very light weight and transition is fast. If you have limited function/1 good arm, this would be the best setup with the pressure switch and low bore weight short of maybe a p90 with some custom tape switch.

Slsort of fragile, would not trust a 1 point sling for anything serious.

How quickly can you attach the ENDO? I have confirmation from the VA State Police Dept that a pistol, once registered as an SBR, is still eligible for concealed carry on a CHP, provided the stock is not physically attached to the pistol. The stock could be carried in a bag, and attached behind cover, while still having the pistol in it's normal carry position for immediate action.

Yondering
12-02-2015, 03:17 PM
We weren't able to see the iron sights while the stock was shouldered.



I got that, but was hoping to hear why you couldn't see the sights. Too low/ high? Too close? What was the cause of the problem?

Rex G
12-02-2015, 04:00 PM
I took the plunge and did the endo with a stamp. Using a CTR stock and a tsd slide, I measured the distance from top of stock to the center of rmr. It is literally the exact same height as an a3/a4 AR with aimpoint micro and lower 1/3 cowitness mount. No problem using suoressor height irons. I could see it being difficult with standard height sites.

(snipped)

X300 makes a great forward grip (using silencer to avoid blowing thumb off) and a pressure switch makes for the ultimate 1 handed setup. Very light weight and transition is fast. If you have limited function/1 good arm, this would be the best setup with the pressure switch and low bore weight short of maybe a p90 with some custom tape switch.

Sort of fragile, would not trust a 1 point sling for anything serious.

Thanks for addressing the fragility aspect; that was a concern for me. The comment about the WML being a good fore grip is interesting, too. I noticed yesterday that the X300U is considerably longer than my X200 and X300 WMLs, which should make it a better fore grip. I am evaluating how to assemble my "Enhanced Pistol," and it is good to know these things. (Enhanced Pistol = G17 with RDS and WML, and frame mods, as opposed to a PDW/CDW with some sort of stock or brace.)

The WML will get hot, if used for very long at a time, but in a fight, illumination should be momentary, rather than constant. If it does get hot, of course, the shooter can move the support hand back to a more conventional handgun support position.

WarGoat
12-02-2015, 05:46 PM
I got that, but was hoping to hear why you couldn't see the sights. Too low/ high? Too close? What was the cause of the problem?

When I had a cheek weld, the slide was too high and we couldn't see the standard iron sights.

When I positioned my head to see the sights, we couldn't get a cheek weld (don't know if anyone considered a chin weld).

In either case, we could not establish a typical sight picture while shouldering the stock.

t15
12-02-2015, 06:38 PM
How quickly can you attach the ENDO? I have confirmation from the VA State Police Dept that a pistol, once registered as an SBR, is still eligible for concealed carry on a CHP, provided the stock is not physically attached to the pistol. The stock could be carried in a bag, and attached behind cover, while still having the pistol in it's normal carry position for immediate action.

There is a pin that has to be driven into the lanyard hole. It is not fast, certainly not reactive fast.

Concerning comments of cheek weld etc, I will mention again that laying ontop/side by side it is exactly the same height as an aimpoint micro in lower third cowitness mount on a flat top ar15. (Both CTR stocks).

t15
12-08-2015, 06:21 AM
for those thinking about getting an endo and stamp for their full size glock, here are some vidyas i found while stumbling around online. some observations, 1st video is an endo with basic ar stock and a front grip. my experience using front grips and the endo system was poor. if you pull down and towards your body using the grip as a leverage point, you will be taking the recoil energy off the top lug that engages at the beavertail. this is the big feature of the endo stock that actually makes it decent compared to other options that only engage at the backstrap/lanyard hole.

using the x300 series of lights instead of a grip is nice as it forces you to pull back more inline with the frame and the double wide battery compartment gives just enough to hold on to with a sort of rifle/thumb forward type grip. (please do not try this without a silencer or long slide/barrel)

note the 2nd video is of the mako stock and you can really see it flexing all over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFKnvuYsubs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9EJgkpbiFA

SqueeDAB
12-08-2015, 05:06 PM
I've tried a similar set up w the Sig brace. Think more of shooting a pistol w added stability instead of perfect cheek weld rifle shooting.

Gabriel Suarez
12-08-2015, 06:32 PM
And once in a while...by pure happenstance and fatigue...that "arm brace" touches the shoulder...ever unintentionally - and a new world is suddenly revealed to the operator.

Mike Heckathorn
12-08-2015, 06:40 PM
And once in a while...by pure happenstance and fatigue...that "arm brace" touches the shoulder...ever unintentionally - and a new world is suddenly revealed to the operator.

Who says it's not a bicep brace, also?

t15
12-09-2015, 09:34 AM
I've tried a similar set up w the Sig brace. Think more of shooting a pistol w added stability instead of perfect cheek weld rifle shooting.

I do not want to sound like I am peddling the endo product and this will be my last post on the thread unless there are any questions I can answer.

Concerning your comment and wargoats, using an rmr, an endo adapter, and carbine stock, the setup is exactly like shooting an ar15 and is my favorite thing to shoot at the moment using subs and a can of it wasn't for the blow back.

The angle of the tube is directly in line/parralel with the bore axis and height/cheek weld is perfect. LOP can of course be adjusted, the glock grip angle is more than satisfactory.

I cannot find any flaw with the system. You obviously cannot use the stock as a blunt weapon while attached, there is some concern of breaking the backstrap of the glock if you were to put enough lateral force on the stock assembly, but I imagine the endo adapter would break first. I have used a Chinese clone and the endo product. The endo has practically no flex in any direction, but compared to any real rifle, there is still lateral flex however minimal. The Chinese clones do not fit as tightly and are made of sub par plastic.

The adapter can be used with a sling attachment endplate like an ar15, this seems like the biggest drawback is no way to sling directly to the pistol instead of the assembly.

Maybe attach to the accesory rail somehow instead.

Yondering
12-09-2015, 10:49 AM
t15, thanks for your review and comments, I find that very useful. Might have to pick up one of these myself, already have a Shockwave on the way anyhow.

From your experience with it - is there any way to make it work correctly on a G19, maybe a spacer or something?


A side comment - I've had opportunity to shoot a Glock with a foregrip mounted to the rail (no stock, just AOW). I found it completely unsatisfactory because the rail flexed so much. Also any forward pressure flexed the rail up enough to bind the slide and cause malfunctions. Based on that, I think the flashlight hold makes sense, but anything with more leverage could be asking for trouble.

Gabriel Suarez
12-09-2015, 02:20 PM
Ok...this is not a weapon intended for buttstrokes and bayonets. Lets not take it there. It that is your deal...get an Uzi.
On holding...hold the pistol in both hands like you would normally hold the pistol. No secrets there. Cognocenti know to not be a slave to the grop...and the grip is often modified when moving to the 5:00. Hold it in that way. It is not as difficult as you might think.

t15
12-09-2015, 03:50 PM
Ok...this is not a weapon intended for buttstrokes and bayonets. Lets not take it there. It that is your deal...get an Uzi.
On holding...hold the pistol in both hands like you would normally hold the pistol. No secrets there. Cognocenti know to not be a slave to the grop...and the grip is often modified when moving to the 5:00. Hold it in that way. It is not as difficult as you might think.

stock open to position 6 is very comfortable holding traditional 2 handed thumbs forward pistol grip. i chopped up a magpul afg to fit on the accessory rail as an experiment and like that a lot. i will post a pic later.

the endo product will not work on anything but full size gen 3 frames. there is no way to make it work on a small frame without completely redesigning the product. you can file the backstrap plug portion to fit gen 4.

WarGoat
12-09-2015, 07:53 PM
Concerning your comment and wargoats, using an rmr, an endo adapter, and carbine stock, the setup is exactly like shooting an ar15 and is my favorite thing to shoot at the moment using subs and a can of it wasn't for the blow back.

I am now super bummed the NFA registered G17 I shot didn't have an RMR.

Brent Yamamoto
12-09-2015, 10:13 PM
Gabe showed me his new non-stock glock.

All I can say is I'm putting some orders in as soon as I get back to Seattle.

docholliday13
12-09-2015, 11:15 PM
I saw it was only compatible with gen 1-3 unfortunately.

Scottman
12-10-2015, 03:44 PM
Gabe noticed any improvements in accuracy with your given carry load ?

very interesting thank you

Yondering
12-11-2015, 10:23 PM
Gabe showed me his new non-stock glock.

All I can say is I'm putting some orders in as soon as I get back to Seattle.

I just now realized this fits the full size 20-21 frames too!

Yondering
12-16-2015, 10:12 PM
Ok, I've been messing around with a Glock/Endo/Shockwave this evening. My initial disappointment is that it supposedly fits the 21 frames, but turns out it doesn't fit the 21SF, which I have. I was hoping for some non-stock 10mm experimentation, but no-go.

I got it to fit the gen4 G19 with a little trimming though, and am pretty impressed. The RMR makes all the difference. Combined with a light and a suppressor, it's a neat little package. I'll shoot it some this weekend. (Getting home in the dark this time of year sucks.)

Mushinto
12-16-2015, 10:15 PM
Ok, I've been messing around with a Glock/Endo/Shockwave this evening. My initial disappointment is that it supposedly fits the 21 frames, but turns out it doesn't fit the 21SF, which I have.

Thanks for saving me the trouble. Let me know if you find anything that does fit it.

ML

Yondering
12-16-2015, 11:12 PM
I think they're probably right that it fits standard 20 & 21 frames (along with the gen 1-3 G17/22), but the space in the backstrap of the SF frames is smaller. I hadn't considered that before buying one, but it seems obvious now. Even the gen4 G19 has more space in the backstrap. It could be made to fit the SF frame with a little work, but would be dedicated to the SF after that, as it would be too small for anything else. They don't cost much, I may just buy another to do that.

Modifying the Endo to fit a gen4 was pretty simple; you can either remove the two ribs inside the backstrap on the Glock frame, or trim down the Endo itself. I trimmed the Endo, it only took a few minutes with a belt grinder, but you could do it with a pocket knife if that's all you had. Making it fit the G19 just required another 3/16" pin hole higher up than the original.

EDELWEISS
12-17-2015, 04:58 AM
OK you guys that have one--how easy (fast) do they go on/off? How easy is it to carry in a bag? Will you consider carrying? Sometimes? Was it worth the cost?

ChrisNobody
12-17-2015, 07:58 AM
I will be working to trim my endo down to work on a G20 G4 later this evening. Like Brent, I got an opportunity to 'try Gabe's out' this past weekend. I was able to hit 100% of the time at 75 Yards on a steel equivalent of a 'Q' target. I hit 5 for 5 at 100 yards after having one miss. The key was to ensure that the suppressor was on tightly - accuracy went to hell when it started to unthread itself. I hit 2 for 3 at 150 yards. I was holding about 9 feet high and 4 feet to the right at that point. I would have kept going, but ran out of ammunition. I said I was going to get back to it, but I never seemed to get the time....then a bunch of guys decided to attach it to a G18 and all hell broke loose.

So, I ordered two and will attach the first to the G20 tonight. I'll stick a 6" barrel on it as well. If I can keep minute of face at 50 - 75 yards, I'll keep it attached indefinitely. I see some real opportunities for this setup and will most likely keep it in the truck going forward. I haven't tested it with the G20 20 round magazines....that will be an early test as well. If that runs reliably, I suspect you will just see me wandering around with a huge smile on my face.

Gabriel Suarez
12-17-2015, 08:22 AM
Yeah...the Glock 18 was a little disruptive. I'd forgotten how that little beast felt. The "arm brace" makes all the difference though.

Yondering
12-17-2015, 08:48 AM
I will be working to trim my endo down to work on a G20 G4 later this evening.

I'm interested to see/hear how that turned out. How much material did you have to remove?

The G18 sounds like fun.

Mushinto
12-17-2015, 08:53 AM
... It could be made to fit the SF frame with a little work, but would be dedicated to the SF after that, as it would be too small for anything else. They don't cost much, I may just buy another to do that....

I may try that. I have a Gen 4 G21 that is registered as an SBR. I don't mind if it can only be used there.

ML

Yondering
12-17-2015, 01:45 PM
OK you guys that have one--how easy (fast) do they go on/off? How easy is it to carry in a bag? Will you consider carrying? Sometimes? Was it worth the cost?

It's easy, but does require fine motor skills (inserting the retaining pin). I can't see trying to use it in an emergency, and certainly not reactively. Using it proactively in a short-notice situation where you don't have a rifle, maybe, but personally I'm not going to carry one around town with me.

I do see some real value to this setup in a survival situation though. It will extend the range of your pistol while being easy to pack, and is pretty lightweight. I'll probably carry it in my backpack on my dual sport offroad rides this summer.

I weighed mine last night - Gen 4 G19, RMR, and full 22rd mag, with Endo/Shockwave attached is 3.0 lb. With a tac light and Liberty Mystic X mounted, it's 4lb 4oz. This is a lot lighter than most other pistol caliber carbine/SBR/pistol options. I didn't weigh the Endo/Shockwave combo by itself, but can do that tonight.

t15
01-02-2016, 10:44 AM
463404633946341

first pic is with both stocks on position 1. 2nd pic is glock stock closed rifle at position 6

Gabriel Suarez
01-02-2016, 03:00 PM
So an update as I have been working with this for a little while now.

1). Without the suppressor on it, the G17 with the unit is 20.5" long. The height depends on the magazine, but this goes together with the 33 round G18 magazines like ugly and liberal chick.

2). Adding a Surefire X400 allow yu a different grip method more akin to a rifle. I am not so keen on VFGs on weapons like this...just personal pref. Also since this rides the grey edge of legal, I hesitate to push that edge any farther with angled or vertical grips.

3). This is a proactive weapon and not a reactive one. I have already written on my POV on this and I will let that suffice. I do think this configuration DEFEATS ANY AND ALL 9MM SEMI AUTO CARBINE/SMG weapons out there as it can do anything those can do in a far smaller and lighter package. If given a choice between a CZ Evo, a SIG MPX, or this...the Glock PDW kicks all their asses.

More to follow but I am impressed.

Brent Yamamoto
01-02-2016, 03:19 PM
I do think this configuration DEFEATS ANY AND ALL 9MM SEMI AUTO CARBINE/SMG weapons out there as it can do anything those can do in a far smaller and lighter package. If given a choice between a CZ Evo, a SIG MPX, or this...the Glock PDW kicks all their asses.


Ted Demosthenes and I were shooting mine in 357 Sig it just this morning and were discussing this very thing. I agree 100%.

This package works best with a red dot, but it's still workable with just irons. With no dot, the front sight blurs out...but while you’re not going to get eyeball accuracy, I found you can still put all rounds in a fist size hole out to 50ish feet (this isn’t hard with a pistol either but I can do it faster with this package). Even without a dot, it makes things a lot easier…and while it certainly doesn’t replace the pistol you wear, it is definitely a good option for a fast deploying, light and easy to handle gun in a vehicle, office, or the right kind of bag.

Fast mag changes are difficult with your primary hand but easily accomplished with the support hand.


It’s accurate, compact, light, and incredibly handy. For a pistol caliber package, this is THE answer (until something better comes out). I have tried many different variations on this theme, and this beats them all.

The Endo is easily adaptable to a G19 frame, while still working perfectly on a 17 frame. (I don’t know why they don’t just offer it that way). Modifying it for a Gen 4 gun is also easily done but I think it would then be too loose for Gen 3 frames.


For those thinking you can assemble it quickly under pressure...yes it can be put together quickly and easily but I think FAR better to simply have the gun already assembled. If it's a fast developing situation (when would it not be?), you are best off using the pistol on your belt. If the event becomes prolonged enough, then yes you could have time to attach the brace.

It may be a little crazy but I have ordered a folding mechanism to see how the concept works. I will post more after I have a chance to run it.

jlwilliams
01-02-2016, 03:25 PM
Brent, what is involved in adapting this to the 19?

Brent Yamamoto
01-02-2016, 03:35 PM
See post #54 from Yondering. Maybe he can post a picture of the mod.

I can also verify for everyone that it indeed fits Gen 3 G20/G21. It does NOT fit Gen 4s without modification.

jlwilliams
01-02-2016, 04:08 PM
Got it.

steve_k
01-02-2016, 06:55 PM
I had a chance to try out Brent's .357 Sig with brace this morning, it's a nice set up!

This is something I will want to add to the gear bag in the future. Very easy to use and and RDS seems to be a must.


10 yards
46347

Yondering
01-02-2016, 07:02 PM
Brent, what is involved in adapting this to the 19?

To fit a gen 3 19, you'll need to drill another pin hole in the Endo. Locating the hole is a little tricky since you have to drill from the blind side, but it can be done.

Fitting to a gen 4 requires slimming down the piece that slides into the Glock frame hole. The gen 4 pistols have a smaller hole (thinner front to back). If you do this for a gen 4 17, it will probably be loose on any gen 3 frame. Mine is trimmed just for the gen 4 19 though, and still fit Brent's gen 3 17 frame tightly; I left the area around the factory pin hole unmolested.

bassbones
01-02-2016, 07:15 PM
I have one on the way.....If you could post a pic of the G19 mod...that would be very helpful

JB

Yondering
01-02-2016, 08:42 PM
Pics below.

One thing I forgot to mention regarding modifying the Endo for the G19 - it fits great, but G19 mags don't fit with the Endo installed. The flare at the back of the mag interferes. G17 or longer mags work great though.
Edit for clarification - the G19 mags can be forced into place and the gun will run, as my buddy did last weekend, but the mag is hard to remove if you do that!

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/IMG_3437.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/IMG_3439.jpg

EDELWEISS
01-03-2016, 03:49 PM
Are you guys using a dedicated handgun for this, and a separate handgun for carry? I like the idea of a separate carry gun with an assembled Endo/Glock in a bag for "issues" that require PDW deployments.

I am still hopeful for a NOT Stock option, which would mean only one pistol for carry and PDW use. Ive just started playing with the Endo and I like it; but a NOT stock would be faster to deploy if only one gun was used.

For you guys that live in truly FREE STATES, would an actual SBRd version be even better?

How does this compare with the Glock Mech Tech "pistol" project (minus the stock) we talked about in the past?

Brent Yamamoto
01-03-2016, 03:53 PM
How does this compare with the Glock Mech Tech "pistol" project (minus the stock) we talked about in the past?

I like some things about the MechTech and have probably worked with it more than anyone here with the exception of Yondering.

Hear me loud and clear: the MechTech is obsolete. Period.

Brent Yamamoto
01-03-2016, 04:00 PM
Are you guys using a dedicated handgun for this, and a separate handgun for carry? I like the idea of a separate carry gun with an assembled Endo/Glock in a bag for "issues" that require PDW deployments.


For now, I am using a dedicated gun.

I have ordered a folder which MIGHT be useful for some things...we will see.

I don't know if a constant "on and off" for the Endo is a good thing. Probably not an issue but personally I want it in a gun semi permanently.

I will probably purchase a second Endo/Shockwave set that could be kept separate and attached as necessary. This wouldn't be too hard to carry in a small bag, and I usually have some kind of small bag with me for odds and ends. It would be useful for prolonged events.

bassbones
01-03-2016, 04:55 PM
Thanks for the pics....I see what needs to be done.

JB

Yondering
01-03-2016, 07:36 PM
Are you guys using a dedicated handgun for this, and a separate handgun for carry?

I'm just using it on my carry gun. I've taken it on a couple trips; it's an easy accessory to just throw in a pack. It's still not viable for quick response if you have to attach it, but that's probably true for an assembled Glock/Endo in a bag anyway.

There's a BIG difference in weight between this and a MechTech pistol, and the Glock setup is accurate enough for the application. I agree with Brent, and can't picture a scenario where I'd rather have a MechTech (except using it as a club, lol). It was useful for a while, but now we have a significant advancement, IMO.

Some will disagree, but I think this makes the pistol caliber AR mostly obsolete too, for serious use anyway.

Yondering
01-03-2016, 07:37 PM
Thanks for the pics....I see what needs to be done.

JB


I used a belt sander to do mine. You could do it with a pocket knife or a decent file though.

Redneck Zen
01-03-2016, 08:05 PM
This is interesting to me and for a play toy I like it. I'd love to combine this with my new Osprey, a happy stick and an RD Glock, for sure!

Buuuuut ... my question is one of durability in the face of a close contact lethal encounter. It's my understanding there is only one solid point of contact for the Endo, and that's the little nubbin that goes inside the empty space in the handgrip, correct? In a worst case scenario -- I figure the reason I'm in a gunfight is something went wrong and I am not an optimist about things magically getting any better in the middle of the fight -- you get into a bugtussle for your weapon (and your life): What happens next? So what about the Endo (and others single point stocks like it)? Does the nubbin break off as you pull back to retain your weapon? Does it bend? Has anybody beat on one of these things like we all have our ARs and AKs and other weapons?

As a reference, I got thrown on my ass whilst demonstrating carbine retention back in the day. In the demo a young "former Marine" (this was an Army arty unit I was with) grabbed the barrel and flipped me over like a high school girl in the back seat of her boyfriend's car on prom night. I managed to keep the muzzle pointed at him the whole time and declared him dead with a verbal "bang! bang!"

So what happens if you get jumped and a goblin (to steal a term from Cooper) flanks you and grabs your PDW? Does it bend or break? Does the weapon become inoperable? Perhaps if we knew we (or someone smarter than me) can work up the TTP to counter the problem.

Again, I don't mean to rain on the parade; I really want a 9mm PDW and I've been intrigued by both the Mako/FAB and the Endo for some time. If durability is an issue, no prob. I can deal with that. I just prefer to know what I'm getting into before investing my fixed income $$$.

Brent Yamamoto
01-03-2016, 09:08 PM
As an assembly I don't think it's as sturdy as a metal AK, nor an AR for that matter. But in this scenario so what?

The Endo is pretty damn hard. It's at least as sturdy as a Glock frame! If there is a weak point, it is the threading to the buffer tube and the connection of tube and brace. But again, so what. Treat this just as you would a pistol in a close contact scenario. While he is struggling to grab and hold onto your gun, shoot him and/or gouge out his eyes with your freehand.

In that scenario I do not see any difference other than the bad guy has a little more real estate to grab the gun. Building up your retention skills is 100% on you, regardless of your weapon.

If he is grabbing onto the brace and breaks it off, that would actually be a benefit because now your pistol is free.

Gabriel Suarez
01-04-2016, 06:06 AM
Some will disagree, but I think this makes the pistol caliber AR mostly obsolete too, for serious use anyway.

My feeling as well.

Gabriel Suarez
01-04-2016, 06:09 AM
Again, I don't mean to rain on the parade; I really want a 9mm PDW and I've been intrigued by both the Mako/FAB and the Endo for some time. If durability is an issue, no prob. I can deal with that. I just prefer to know what I'm getting into before investing my fixed income $$$.

We select a weapon for use as intended. If you want a club...get a club. I select my FIREARMS for their characteristics in shooting, not in baseball batting someone. To do otherwise is like selecting a car because of its great seatbelt.

If ability to club was the only criteria, we should all just carry S&W 686 Revolvers, Remington 870s, and Full stocked M14s. And finally...once again...this is not a defensive weapon.

Ted Demosthenes
01-04-2016, 07:09 AM
I'm just using it on my carry gun. I've taken it on a couple trips; it's an easy accessory to just throw in a pack. It's still not viable for quick response if you have to attach it, but that's probably true for an assembled Glock/Endo in a bag anyway.

...but now we have a significant advancement, IMO.

Some will disagree, but I think this makes the pistol caliber AR mostly obsolete too, for serious use anyway.

I strongly agree. After the 100-200+ yds shooting we experimented with at RDS class last fall, and shooting Brent's RMR'd project gun last Saturday, it's very obvious.

Won't have to run out to the parking lot to retrieve a longer gun or carry larger backpack...

Yondering
01-04-2016, 10:02 AM
Buuuuut ... my question is one of durability in the face of a close contact lethal encounter.

Yeah, you could break it, but it's not fragile. It's not a weapon to do pushups on or use as a bat, but I don't see that as a reason to avoid it.

Gabriel Suarez
01-04-2016, 10:05 AM
Yeah, you could break it, but it's not fragile. It's not a weapon to do pushups on or use as a bat, but I don't see that as a reason to avoid it.


I think some guys would not be happy with anything less than a 2x4 that shoots. Me...I know what a firearm is for and I know that the pinnacle of gunfight development did not come from Russia.

DogDoc
01-04-2016, 12:04 PM
Heck, if does break you still have a very nice handgun.

H60DoorGunner
01-04-2016, 03:20 PM
... a 2x4 that shoots.

That would be kinda neat though

Redneck Zen
01-04-2016, 03:23 PM
We select a weapon for use as intended. If you want a club...get a club. I select my FIREARMS for their characteristics in shooting, not in baseball batting someone. To do otherwise is like selecting a car because of its great seatbelt.

If ability to club was the only criteria, we should all just carry S&W 686 Revolvers, Remington 870s, and Full stocked M14s. And finally...once again...this is not a defensive weapon.

Message rec'd ... understood. Thanks!

Redneck Zen
01-04-2016, 03:25 PM
As an assembly I don't think it's as sturdy as a metal AK, nor an AR for that matter. But in this scenario so what?

The Endo is pretty damn hard. It's at least as sturdy as a Glock frame! If there is a weak point, it is the threading to the buffer tube and the connection of tube and brace. But again, so what. Treat this just as you would a pistol in a close contact scenario. While he is struggling to grab and hold onto your gun, shoot him and/or gouge out his eyes with your freehand.

In that scenario I do not see any difference other than the bad guy has a little more real estate to grab the gun. Building up your retention skills is 100% on you, regardless of your weapon.

If he is grabbing onto the brace and breaks it off, that would actually be a benefit because now your pistol is free.

That's kinda what I was thinking, but having no hands on experience with the gear, i couldn't confirm. Makes sense. Thanks!

WarGoat
01-04-2016, 07:07 PM
For those of you who are using this on a G19 -- any problems using MagPul G17-sized magazines? The baseplate seems to be too big to fit.

Yondering
01-04-2016, 09:59 PM
Could be. I forgot about it earlier, but I ground a little off the bottom front corner of the Endo for the base of the G17 factory mags. The endo doesn't go into the frame at the same angle as the mag, so it ends up being slightly farther forward on the G19, enough to cause interference with the mags. There's enough thickness there to remove some material to make clearance though without weakening it.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/IMG_3441.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/IMG_3447.jpg

bassbones
01-05-2016, 05:57 AM
Thanks again yondering.....your saving me a lot of time!

JB

Housertl
01-05-2016, 07:43 AM
Could be. I forgot about it earlier, but I ground a little off the bottom front corner of the Endo for the base of the G17 factory mags. The endo doesn't go into the frame at the same angle as the mag, so it ends up being slightly farther forward on the G19, enough to cause interference with the mags. There's enough thickness there to remove some material to make clearance though without weakening it.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/IMG_3441.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/IMG_3447.jpg

Yondering, any chance I could get dimensions on the grip plug portion of that? I wonder if it could be made to work with a Steyr.

Yondering
01-05-2016, 10:49 AM
I'll measure it this evening.

Housertl
01-05-2016, 10:53 AM
I'll measure it this evening.
Thanks!!!

DogDoc
01-05-2016, 03:46 PM
I'm surprised Endo isn't offering versions for the GEN 4, 21SF, G19 etc...

Yondering
01-05-2016, 08:27 PM
Yondering, any chance I could get dimensions on the grip plug portion of that? I wonder if it could be made to work with a Steyr.

The grip plug part is a roughly half circle profile. Measuring at the base, front to back is about 0.510" (I've ground mine down a little there though). Width is 0.875", and height is ~1.925" measured from the edge where the bottom of a G17 backstrap would sit.

Housertl
01-06-2016, 05:35 AM
The grip plug part is a roughly half circle profile. Measuring at the base, front to back is about 0.510" (I've ground mine down a little there though). Width is 0.875", and height is ~1.925" measured from the edge where the bottom of a G17 backstrap would sit.

Could you measure the thickness of the top and "stem" of the "T" that seems to be made by this 90 degree cut as well, when you have time?? This looks pretty promising, but the plug shape on the Steyr is very different than on the Glock.Thanks again!

46393

WarGoat
01-06-2016, 06:48 AM
Thanks for the picture, Yondering :)

EDELWEISS
01-06-2016, 08:13 AM
The more I look at the Endo, the more I think its a great starting point for Not Stock thats held on by grip alone. Why is THAT important?--because as soon as some plastic clog wearing tattooed fat man posts youtube videos of his yeehaaa shootem'up; we'll get a negative ruling on this too.

I dont have the knowledge OR skills to do it but it certainly "looks" like removing the grip "plug" and adding a Clamshell between the top and bottom, contoured to fit the grip would work. It would even work for the smaller Glocks and maybe other guns as well---There you have it, feel free to use my idea, just allow me testing privileges and first dips to buy one

DogDoc
01-06-2016, 12:35 PM
The more I look at the Endo, the more I think its a great starting point for Not Stock thats held on by grip alone. Why is THAT important?--because as soon as some plastic clog wearing tattooed fat man posts youtube videos of his yeehaaa shootem'up; we'll get a negative ruling on this too.

I dont have the knowledge OR skills to do it but it certainly "looks" like removing the grip "plug" and adding a Clamshell between the top and bottom, contoured to fit the grip would work. It would even work for the smaller Glocks and maybe other guns as well---There you have it, feel free to use my idea, just allow me testing privileges and first dips to buy one

Don't be so hard on yourself Edel, I don't think yer a dip. ;)

Great idea though.

Doc

Housertl
01-06-2016, 12:42 PM
The more I look at the Endo, the more I think its a great starting point for Not Stock thats held on by grip alone. Why is THAT important?--because as soon as some plastic clog wearing tattooed fat man posts youtube videos of his yeehaaa shootem'up; we'll get a negative ruling on this too.

I dont have the knowledge OR skills to do it but it certainly "looks" like removing the grip "plug" and adding a Clamshell between the top and bottom, contoured to fit the grip would work. It would even work for the smaller Glocks and maybe other guns as well---There you have it, feel free to use my idea, just allow me testing privileges and first dips to buy one

That would probably be easy as hell. Mold a piece of kydex to your backstrap, leaving a "T" shaped tail extending backward from the kydex, so you can wrap around the upper and lower arms of the ENDO. Cut off the grip plug, then pin and epoxy the kydex to the ENDO. EZ PZ. Adaptable to any pistol. Probably well worth the $40-$50 cost of admission. Trim the grip portion right and it would simply fall away upon release of grip pressure.

SqueeDAB
01-06-2016, 08:17 PM
With a 1 point sling, this set up will ride in a belt holster under a jacket quite easily, if one were so inclined. Also tethers quite easily to a belt w a Zack, and pops loose while presenting the weapon without having to "draw" the gun.

Yondering
01-06-2016, 08:35 PM
Could you measure the thickness of the top and "stem" of the "T" that seems to be made by this 90 degree cut as well, when you have time?? This looks pretty promising, but the plug shape on the Steyr is very different than on the Glock.Thanks again!

46393

The side ribs are .130" thick. The main rib, where the pin hole is, is .400" thick, side to side.

Housertl
01-07-2016, 02:53 AM
The side ribs are .130" thick. The main rib, where the pin hole is, is .400" thick, side to side.

Awesome!

ReynCon
01-07-2016, 11:40 AM
Well I finally had a chance to get to the range to test my new SI goodies and my Endo/Shockwave. I clipped mine to a G34 that I added a 6" barrel to; tribe this set up is like voodoo black magic. Well not really if you examine your performance. The bottom line is the front sight or dot simply DO NOT MOVE.

At 7yds, one ragged hole eyeball size, at 10yds, same thing, at 15 it wan't one hole but it was a VERY small group, at 25 a 2" circle is still EASY. Then I changed the 34 slide for my RMR'd 17, not quite as tight as with the 34, which was to be expected with the extra length on the tube, but still a marked shrinking of group sizes at every range. With the RMR on I slid over to the 100yd line. The target was a standard silhouette with two Red Dot zeroing targets separated with a 'shoot the stripe' target. Everything was standard 8 1/2 x 11 printer paper so basically I was shooting at a target 25" wide by 22" tall. I held the dot centered on the stripe and right on the top edge of the target frame. I had some 147 JHPs in the mag. 17 rounds and a walk later revealed 17 hits on the target with 5 within 6" or so of the aiming point. All 17 rounds!

I am 1000% sold on the set up and concept as long as it's kept in context. Don't wait, get one!

Yondering
01-07-2016, 04:20 PM
Totally agree about the accuracy improvement, my results were pretty much the same with a G19.

It may be worth re-considering some of our carry loads, with respect to the longer range possibilities of this setup. Some dislike +P 9mm loads, but if you can take advantage of the extra effective range with this brace, I think it makes sense.

Gabriel Suarez
01-07-2016, 05:16 PM
I will be announcing availability of a kit soon. And if you carry a 9mm why would you not go +p?

Yondering
01-07-2016, 05:46 PM
I honestly don't know, but some guys like to repeat that silly "If you need +P, you need a bigger cartridge" line. Personally, my carry loads are +P+, I've tested them and know they're good in my gun, and have no reason to use weaker stuff.

Aside from the +P thing though, my comment was about choosing specific rounds that work a little farther out. Corbon's lightweight Barnes bullet (95gr IIRC?) would be one example, or hot 115gr loads vs 147gr stuff, etc. I've been working a lot with a 105gr bullet I make at 1450 fps, and Lehigh's new 90gr ED at 1525 fps. Both shoot considerably flatter than most heavier bullet loads, and seem to be more effective at 100 yards.

Gabriel Suarez
01-07-2016, 06:17 PM
I use 115 JHP +P. I think 115-124 is the sweet spot for 9mm. Too much speed and light weight is just as bad as slow and heavy. A 95 grain round may get out farther but ... well...same old song no.

I actually think key magazines for applications have a place. For example...I have magazines with 147 grain solids in subsonic for silent work at night, and super hot FMJs in a mag for other work. My main carry ammo is some sort of Bonded JHP in 115 grains. Corbon and Barnes.

I have been playing with a 95 grain solid in a 357 SIG for "special applications" too. Use your imagination.

Brent Yamamoto
01-07-2016, 06:44 PM
I actually think key magazines for applications have a place. For example...I have magazines with 147 grain solids in subsonic for silent work at night, and super hot FMJs in a mag for other work. My main carry ammo is some sort of Bonded JHP in 115 grains. Corbon and Barnes.

I agree with this line of thought.

I do my research on terminal performance as best as I can but the most important thing to me is what do I shoot best. Some bullets are just more accurate, and for applications where that matters (it usually does) I simply choose to shoot what works best for me.

More thoughts later. It's time for me to go punch people.

Yondering
01-07-2016, 09:31 PM
I keep special mags too, especially for the subsonic stuff.

I mentioned the 90gr Lehigh bullet earlier; it doesn't suffer from the explosive shallow penetration of a lot of the really light fast bullets. Maybe similar in concept to what you can do with a 95gr solid in 357 Sig.

Bullet selection matters a lot more than many realize, I think; far more than caliber or that last 100 fps. For example, if you're hunting (and know what you're doing) in a situation where you may have some 500 yard shots, you'd likely choose a different bullet than if you were in the dense woods and close shots with the same rifle. You'd choose something that worked for the velocity at that distance, and size of game of course. The same logic can be applied to some degree here, although not necessarily to the extreme of using different bullets for longer range. A 147gr, even +P, might work great up close, but unless it's designed to expand at really low speed, it'll probably suck at 75-100 yards. The opposite may be true for a lot of really light bullets though. The point is to find the right balance. Gabe, your 115gr +P is certainly in that window, but a lot of people carry different stuff.

Dark One
01-07-2016, 10:08 PM
Man I wish they made them for the G19!! Seriously thinking of getting two and attempting the mods. More I look at it, the more I like it!!

sefus73
01-13-2016, 08:54 PM
I tossed a not-a-stock into my pack while snowshoeing this last weekend. Me and my buddy did some bubba shooting without paper. 1st gen G22 with Trij TFOs and a lone wolf barrel, 180gn FMJ... 15 yards, stupid simple. Front sight moved about as much as when "free handing" the pistol. So kind of underwhelming right there. Then targeted a nice tree at about 50 yards. Then 80, then 125. Had absolute confidence that I could nail a coyote sized target at ease. About around that 125 mark is as far as it felt comfortable for reliable one shot hits with a thick iron front sight like that but I dont see much reason to haul a full size rifle around everywhere anymore...

Yondering
01-13-2016, 10:12 PM
I tossed a not-a-stock into my pack while snowshoeing this last weekend. Me and my buddy did some bubba shooting without paper. 1st gen G22 with Trij TFOs and a lone wolf barrel, 180gn FMJ... 15 yards, stupid simple. Front sight moved about as much as when "free handing" the pistol. So kind of underwhelming right there. Then targeted a nice tree at about 50 yards. Then 80, then 125. Had absolute confidence that I could nail a coyote sized target at ease. About around that 125 mark is as far as it felt comfortable for reliable one shot hits with a thick iron front sight like that but I dont see much reason to haul a full size rifle around everywhere anymore...

Sounds about right!
Add an RMR, the red dot makes it just that much better, and the eye relief issue with the iron sights goes away.

EDELWEISS
01-14-2016, 04:51 AM
I tossed a not-a-stock.....
Dude WHAT are you holding back??? Are you talking the Endo or something drop away?

sefus73
01-14-2016, 07:52 AM
Just the Endo and shockwave... gotta stay within regs

bassbones
01-16-2016, 08:48 PM
So I got my ENDO and tried to get it on to my G17 to start and I can't get it on to save my life. Am I doing something wrong? It won't fit all the way into the backstrap. Any one else having "fit" issues?

JB

Brent Yamamoto
01-16-2016, 11:08 PM
JB - post some pictures, both of the Endo by itself as well as attached to the frame. Include close ups of top and bottom of the Endo where it attaches.

You DO have a Gen 3, correct? It doesn't fit the Gen 4 without some modifications. Just making sure.

bassbones
01-16-2016, 11:13 PM
Thanks Brent....It seems the thickness on my adapter is a little on the plus side. I just got done slowly filling it down and test fitting as I go and made it fit. Yes, its a GEN3.
I have a cheap UTG folder on it now.....its a very sweet little package.

JB

Brent Yamamoto
01-16-2016, 11:20 PM
They are kind of tight at first. I've only seen a small handful of them so I don't know how consistent they are.

I don't know for sure but I think it's better not to be constantly taking them on and off. I purchased another frame that is going to sit permanently on this set up.

JB - let us know how the UTG works out. I always go for overkill...the more solid the better in my opinion...but that is at the cost of more weight. As long as the folder locks up tight I think this set up should be ok. I don't consider this a GO TO WAR tool...but it's a damn fine shoot the @#%@^#$&&% in the face tool.

Yondering
01-16-2016, 11:37 PM
They are kind of tight at first. I've only seen a small handful of them so I don't know how consistent they are.



Just from a manufacturing perspective - I'd guess there's more variations in Glock frames than in the Endo units. Bassbones may have a Glock frame that's slightly tighter in the backstrap hole. Which is a good point for anyone considering one - if you've made your backstrap smaller somehow, like heating and compressing it, the Endo probably won't fit without modification.

bassbones
01-17-2016, 12:19 AM
I'm not sure I completely trust the UTG folder....it was on the bench and I slapped it on there. They are about $20, so you get what you pay for. I will have some kind of folder on there for sure since it's such a small package, I"m already looking for a good/small back pack to fit it in with some happy sticks.

My 17 has not seen the light of day very much since I'm a 19 guy....I bought it new about 4 years ago and it sits by the bed most of the time. I haven't modified it in any way. I did email ENDO and the replied quickly saying that there are variations in where the backstrap hole is on some glocks and that might be the problem. I think the ENDO was the problem, but I don't have another full size frame except for one that's been cut down to 19 size to test.

JB

voraus
01-17-2016, 09:17 AM
I just received the Endo this week and I am having the same issue as JB, attaching it to my Gen3 model 17 +- 2 years old. The tab is very thick and doesn't look like it will slide all the way in without modification. It does fit my G20, however. I have a couple of other G17s and a G34 that I will try it on. Glocks seem to have variances. I have a couple of kydex holsters that fit my 9mm pistols and they don't fit all of them uniformly.

Shotgunwillie
01-21-2016, 04:04 PM
I just received the Endo this week and I am having the same issue as JB, attaching it to my Gen3 model 17 +- 2 years old. The tab is very thick and doesn't look like it will slide all the way in without modification. It does fit my G20, however. I have a couple of other G17s and a G34 that I will try it on. Glocks seem to have variances. I have a couple of kydex holsters that fit my 9mm pistols and they don't fit all of them uniformly.

Is your G20 a third or fourth generation?

Any updates on testing this system?

How does it compare to a 9mm AR pistol that accepts Glock mags?

Brent Yamamoto
01-21-2016, 04:15 PM
Any updates on testing this system?

How does it compare to a 9mm AR pistol that accepts Glock mags?

I've shown mine around a lot. Just about everyone's face lights up with a big smile and you can tell they want one.

I haven't shot mine A LOT (357 is expensive), but I'm absolutely pleased with this set up. It's a niche gun for sure...it's not a go to war gun but it's definitely a pack it in a briefcase and shoot scum in the face gun.

I've tried it on some other glocks as well, both with red dots and without. With no dot it certainly doesn't reach it's accuracy potential, but it still makes a great bump in the night gun and it's a definite enhancement for those that are not yet good with a hand gun.

As for comparisons to 9mm AR pistols...I think this makes them obsolete. Period.

Ok, it DOES depend on what you want to accomplish. If you want as small and light as possible, with minimal bulk, the non-stock glock is the winner hands down.

What does the AR give you? A bit longer barrel for some more velocity. Commonality with your rifle, which is useful from a training perspective.

For me, now that this product is available, the only reason I can see for having a 9mm AR (or any other pistol caliber rifle) is just because you want one.

Shotgunwillie
01-21-2016, 04:39 PM
I've shown mine around a lot. Just about everyone's face lights up with a big smile and you can tell they want one.

I haven't shot mine A LOT (357 is expensive), but I'm absolutely pleased with this set up. It's a niche gun for sure...it's not a go to war gun but it's definitely a pack it in a briefcase and shoot scum in the face gun.

I've tried it on some other glocks as well, both with red dots and without. With no dot it certainly doesn't reach it's accuracy potential, but it still makes a great bump in the night gun and it's a definite enhancement for those that are not yet good with a hand gun.

As for comparisons to 9mm AR pistols...I think this makes them obsolete. Period.

Ok, it DOES depend on what you want to accomplish. If you want as small and light as possible, with minimal bulk, the non-stock glock is the winner hands down.

What does the AR give you? A bit longer barrel for some more velocity. Commonality with your rifle, which is useful from a training perspective.

For me, now that this product is available, the only reason I can see for having a 9mm AR (or any other pistol caliber rifle) is just because you want one.

That's all I needed to hear. Thanks, now I have to buy a Glock that it will fit unless it can be modified to fit my gen 4 G20 somehow.

Brent Yamamoto
01-21-2016, 04:48 PM
The Endo can be modified. I don't know how much material must be removed for a Gen 4 but it can be done.

Yondering
01-21-2016, 05:36 PM
That's all I needed to hear. Thanks, now I have to buy a Glock that it will fit unless it can be modified to fit my gen 4 G20 somehow.

It can be made to fit with a little filing. The pin hole is already in the right location. Just file or sand down the back side of the prong until it fits. I think you'll need to take an even amount off the whole back rib of the prong; that's what my g4 G19 needed. You'll have to remove about 1/16"-1/8", roughly.

I would guess if enough people contact Endo about it, they could make a gen 4 version, and add another hole to both versions to work with the G19/23 frames.

Shotgunwillie
01-21-2016, 06:40 PM
It can be made to fit with a little filing. The pin hole is already in the right location. Just file or sand down the back side of the prong until it fits. I think you'll need to take an even amount off the whole back rib of the prong; that's what my g4 G19 needed. You'll have to remove about 1/16"-1/8", roughly.

I would guess if enough people contact Endo about it, they could make a gen 4 version, and add another hole to both versions to work with the G19/23 frames.

Im going to order one for my 10mm. I'll let y'all know how it goes.