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Vig Creed
02-03-2004, 03:34 PM
The right size "T" shaped steel tool would make an ideal defense tool, IMO.

What I am thinking of is a heavy, solid, SS rod about 1" thick by 5" long, slightly pointed on each end, to be clenched in the fist. With a 3/8" thick by 2"-3" long "T" extending out from the center so that it protrudes foreward between the fingers when the "tool" is clenched in the fist.

The 2"-3" "T" would include a male socket end so that sockets could actually be attached for mechanical work.

Thus it would be a "T" shaped socket-driver "tool", not a weapon.

I would think something like this would be devistating in H2H defense and legal to possess while walking down the street.

What ideas for H2H tools do you have?

creed

sanchezero
02-03-2004, 05:56 PM
Vig, you can find allen/hex wrenches of various sizes exactly like you describe. Just cut 'em a bit shorter to suit.

I'm happy with anything I can get my hands on. I once used an antenna from a car.

:)

AQUINAS
02-23-2004, 09:20 AM
As a law enforcement officer I would suggest carrying objects which have a purpose other than use as a weapon, that would be reasonable to have on you. For example, carrying a ball peen hammer or other tool to your job where you actually use such a tool is reasonable. Carrying a ball peen hammer or socket to your job as a computer programer may be challenging to explain.

I find that the following objects to be "law enforcement neutral" in most situations : A small metal flashlight, a roll of quarters, a cane- if you can justify a medical reason for having it, walking stick, credit card- nice sharp edges, etc.

Always refer to the object as a tool or by its non weapon function. Stating you carry anything as a weapon may somewhat shade your justification in using force, especially if it is your word vs his.

B0486
02-23-2004, 04:31 PM
TSA doesn't require anyone to show a "need" for a cane to board, I don't understand why an officer would need a reason or justification for carrying one around daily.

Many people have balance problems from time to time taking meds, ear infections/balance or have foot problems, arches, etc where balance is affected.

I've never had anyone even look at me while carrying a cane, just the opposite, they go out of the way not to "look". Walk by Boston PD officers most days and they don't even recognize it overtly, no looks, questioning glances.

Course I'm over the half century mark so why would anyone question an old man with a cane? If they ever do, I'll show them the custom orthotics in the footwear, at 210.00 a pair, they aren't Dr. Schols even to a novice who "might" ask in the course of an after action report.

Brownie

Geezer
02-23-2004, 04:41 PM
Well Brownie, you're a young pup compared to me. I can't even remember the half-century mark. Of course I can't even remember yesterday's breakfast, but that's another story. The good news is that I am so feeble that I enjoy the freedom of gross disparity of force when I am engaging a girl scout aggressively selling cookies.

You don't have to be old to justify a cane, although old folks never have to justify one. FWIW, Viagra and Levitra lower your blood pressure, for as long as 18 hours or more after ingestion. Lower blood pressure can and often does cause dizziness. Some people can faint hours after taking Viagra due to hypotension. All you need is a prescription, or some free samples lying around the house and youy can get a dozen expert medical witness to testify you needed the cane because of dizzy spells.

Also, under the various laws on the books now to ensure equal rights for the handicapped, I think that ANYONE, LEO or otherwise, who hassled someone about a cane is just about to lose a trillion dollar lawsuit. And, rightfully so.

God bless and y'all be careful out there. :cool:

michael
02-23-2004, 05:51 PM
I was a LEO for 12 years and have never known anyone to be hassled over a cane. There's always the chance some overzealous rookie might stop you, but I don't think I would worry about it.

V42
02-23-2004, 06:33 PM
Also, under the various laws on the books now to ensure equal rights for the handicapped, I think that ANYONE, LEO or otherwise, who hassled someone about a cane is just about to lose a trillion dollar lawsuit.

If it came to a lawsuit you would have to prove need or disability to win.

Yamdog
02-23-2004, 07:13 PM
Just a thought. If you have a "tool" is it still H2H?

Ragsbo
02-23-2004, 08:09 PM
I would have to agree that anything you carry should fit the occasion. A wrench in the pocket of a three piece suit would make eyebrows rise, where in jeans it might not. Now after you have used said wrench to adjust someones attitude then you may be asked for an explaination as to why you had it. To me the best thing to carry is something that has other legitamate uses but also can be brought into the self defense mode. I like the thought process tho. It shows you are thinking and are prepared to do what ever is needed. IMHO all these items we speak about are just tools of the trade, the main weapon is the gray matter between your ears and the will to survive. If you have that you will find some way.

Bodfish
02-23-2004, 09:21 PM
Don't forget who has the burden of proof in a criminal prosecution. It's the job of the prosecution to prove that you didn't have a legitimate purpose for having a cane or a walking stick. You don't have to say anything when asked, and probably shouldn't.

Geezer
02-23-2004, 09:44 PM
Roger that, Bodfish, asking someone why they have a cane is like asking them why they wear glasses. It is obviously not an innocent question, and should not be answered. Either the asker is so stupid that they couldn't understand an intelligent answer anyway or they are trying to find a point of attack.

Responding to V42, on the contrary, there is no objectively verifiable test for balance. If I think I need a cane to assist me in my balance, then I need a cane. If someone under the color of authority takes my cane away, then they OWN everything that may happen after that. A person would have to have SFB to even think of doing it.

For the record, the first time I stumbled without any apparent cause, I was about 40 years old, muscular, vigorous, working as a framing carpenter. It took me about 23 years to figure out I could walk better with a cane than without one. Seriously dumb, but I finally got the message.

God bless and y'all be careful out there. :cool:

Eric
02-25-2004, 02:49 PM
The ideal H2H defense tool is whatever you have at your disposal at the time, including not having anything.

Personally, I carry a 4" Voyager folder pretty much everywhere I go. That said, I can't rely on it being there due to metal detectors and the rest.

So I train to take advantage of anything I can find. Electrical cords, 2x4s, pipes, chairs, etc. I traing with knife, stick, (chinese) sword, butterfly knives and some whip chain.

Even so, there will be situations where you simply have nothing available other than what you were born with.

BladeMaster
05-01-2004, 07:26 PM
Like Eric said, sometimes you don't have anything...so engage your brain and use a little subtrafugee(as Bugs would say). Yell FIRE,FIRE,FIRE AS LOUDLY AS YOU CAN. There are usually other people around who are not BG's and everyone is afraid of fire and wants to know where it is. Aannnnd since you are the one yelling you must know. Everyone will now look in your direction giving the BG an unwanted audience and as I said at another thread...exit stage left in the confusion and get the hell out of Dodge. Situation over and you did'nt even have to break(much) sweat. Misdirection works just as well in self protection as it does in magic...Just a thought. Stay alert & safe. BladeMaster

B0486
05-02-2004, 02:51 PM
When I told people I was flying with the cane, some thought it would be taken away at the gate. Some thought I might be asked why I was carrying it.

That hasn't happened in two flights carrying it. It actually got me boarding first and seated without standing in the isles throwing luggage in the overheads while people were waiting to seat themselves.

My response to "what if they take it away?" was, " if they do, I'll take a few steps and fall down or trip. Wanna bet I get the cane back real quick with people tripping over themselves to HELP me at that point?"

Custom orthotics or not, anyone taking a "medical aid" away from you under authority will have their day in court as well as their employer. I don't need a reason to carry a cane, they are not illegal to possess or carry in public anywhere in the US that I know of.

I didn't carry a cane until I needed one. Now I carry it whenever I think I need it for any reason. Oh, to be retired on anothers foolish actions of taking away a medical aid.

Brownie