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Gabriel Suarez
10-06-2014, 07:11 AM
RED DOTS ON SHOTGUNS? Posted by Gabe Suarez


http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d0774ab1970c-500wi (http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b01b8d0774ab1970c-popup)
I have been busy writing the shotgun book as part of the rewrite and update of all existing books. A great deal has changed since the 1990s. On the discussion of sights, back then the disruptive technology was ghost ring sights. Today, we are putting red dot sights on handguns at a dramatic rate.

Do they belong on shotguns? Lets see.

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2014/10/red-dots-on-shotguns.html#.VDKdtxYmWk8

BESEPUL
10-06-2014, 07:18 AM
Well, if you asked me, I will tell you OF COURSE!!!! Then again, I'm still trying to make certain people understand the benefits of having a RDS on a pistol.

I like where this is going Gabe!

Mushinto
10-06-2014, 08:57 AM
Yes!

I have seen some people do amazing things with a shotgun and just a front bead.

With a RDS, more people will be able to do that.

ML

.40isthenew.45
10-06-2014, 09:24 AM
I had one on my "bear" gun and one on my "game gun", swapped them back and forth but never really reaped huge benefits from them. They didn't look as slick as the setup you pictured. I am interested to see where this goes as well, but for now, I am just running rifle sights on mine for those longer shots that require aiming versus just pointing.
39859

Dorkface
10-06-2014, 12:05 PM
If a shot gun was anywhere near the top of the list of weapons I would grab a red dot would be a good addition. While it wouldn't really do anything to really allow for a hit at extended ranges, with 00 buck anyway, like they do on a handgun it would allow for a quicker index in both normal and less then optimal lighting conditions.

coastalcop
10-06-2014, 12:28 PM
If I use a dot on my handgun for longer ranges, and a dot on my rifle for cqb to long range, why wouldn't I do the same for the shotty? Commonality of sight picture alone makes it worthwhile. Your eye sees what it is accustomed to seeing.

Travlin
10-06-2014, 12:35 PM
I'm just waiting for the D2 7.5 MOA to appear in the wild, then my Benelli will be wearing one

Dorkface
10-06-2014, 12:46 PM
If I use a dot on my handgun for longer ranges, and a dot on my rifle for cqb to long range, why wouldn't I do the same for the shotty?

Unless you are using a slug then the ammo is radically different due to shot spread. I don't care how amazing of an index you might have on a target at 100 yards the pattern of 00 buck isn't going to change just because a red dot is used. A slug would obviously benefit from the index.

Gabriel Suarez
10-06-2014, 12:53 PM
Unless you are using a slug then the ammo is radically different due to shot spread. I don't care how amazing of an index you might have on a target at 100 yards the pattern of 00 buck isn't going to change just because a red dot is used. A slug would obviously benefit from the index.

The idea that one waves the shotgun in the general direction of the threat like some drunken Applegate-look-alike is a myth. The shotgun must be aligned just as a pistol is aligned. There is no need for a sight picture with a pistol at ten feet...same with a shotgun. But at ten yards, you will use something to verify physical alignment. Yes, it can be done with a bead, and yes it can be done with a set of ghost rings or rifle sights. But just as with the handgun, it is far easier to do this with a properly mounted red dot.

And before anyone says that the shotgun is only used at ten feet, lets establish that such is only the case for First Role Operators (non-martial home defenders hiding behind the bed and shooting at the bed room door five paces away). For Second Role Operators, the same guys that put red dots on rifles and pistol, that same sighting system will make the shotgun operator faster on target, more immediate alignment on said target, and thus more accurate as a result....with buckshot or anything else.

AlwaysVigilant
10-06-2014, 01:09 PM
Are we revisiting the shotgun's effectiveness into a more variable role? There has always been the patrolman issues in departments that wont issue rifles, but that trend seems to be changing rapidly. I've always liked them, so don't get me wrong, but I am curious to see the topic popping back into frequent discussion. What new things have you all discovered or tweaked recently in terms of the shotgun and its use? Color me interested. I came in to WT on the back end of shotguns falling out of mainstream topics and threads and missed much of the content beyond "ambush weapon", etc. Sorry for the run-on...my PC is not letting me put in breaks.

chad newton
10-06-2014, 01:13 PM
15-20 fu!! Yeah, even less. What if you have a partial shot? Helps to aim in that situation. Red dot on meat is a lot better then making an estimated guess especially when there is lives on the line. What's that old saying, it's not always the speed, it's the combination of speed and accuracy. What I have noticed is in low light you can't even see the bead, or any conventional sights for that matter. Red dot can alleviate a lot of those issues and make someone more effective.

coastalcop
10-06-2014, 01:18 PM
Unless you are using a slug then the ammo is radically different due to shot spread. I don't care how amazing of an index you might have on a target at 100 yards the pattern of 00 buck isn't going to change just because a red dot is used. A slug would obviously benefit from the index.


My eye sees the dot on my pistol and I know I have a hostage shot (or a tire at 100+ mph) , my dot on my rifle crosses the shoot area while moving fast and I know I can press the shot. After a bazillion repetitions of what my mind expects to see, a dot on a shotgun would allow to index that much faster, OO buck at 25 yards as soon as the body occludes the dot may make the difference. It will almost certainly occur more quickly because my mind says "Shoot" when the dot aligns.

Gabriel Suarez
10-06-2014, 01:28 PM
Are we revisiting the shotgun's effectiveness into a more variable role?

To a degree, yes. But that is more a byproduct of improvements allowing it to function better at what it does already.

Hitting with a shotgun is comprised of the mount. All the rhetoric about not needing a mount to hit inside a bedroom is predicated on already having the mount well developed. Just like with a handgun's draw. So if the mount is not present, and sufficiently developed, nothing will help you hit better. Sound familiar?

Once the mount is there, you have the visual aspects in play. And there are...you will not do well shooting blind folded. The easier it is to get the visual inputs via a wide spectrum of lighting conditions, the easier it will be for you to hit. As well, as we already know...a dot on target means the impact will be on the dot, even if the mount has not been perfect. Yes, we like the spreading pattern, but that does not mean the shotgun is an area weapon either. I you do not center the pattern on the adversary, you may not hit him - the red dot, visible in all lighting conditions, and identical to what you use on all other small arms - will help you do that better than anything else.

Dorkface
10-06-2014, 01:36 PM
The idea that one waves the shotgun in the general direction of the threat like some drunken Applegate-look-alike is a myth. The shotgun must be aligned just as a pistol is aligned. There is no need for a sight picture with a pistol at ten feet...same with a shotgun. But at ten yards, you will use something to verify physical alignment. Yes, it can be done with a bead, and yes it can be done with a set of ghost rings or rifle sights. But just as with the handgun, it is far easier to do this with a properly mounted red dot.

And before anyone says that the shotgun is only used at ten feet, lets establish that such is only the case for First Role Operators (non-martial home defenders hiding behind the bed and shooting at the bed room door five paces away). For Second Role Operators, the same guys that put red dots on rifles and pistol, that same sighting system will make the shotgun operator faster on target, more immediate alignment on said target, and thus more accurate as a result....with buckshot or anything else.


My eye sees the dot on my pistol and I know I have a hostage shot (or a tire at 100+ mph) , my dot on my rifle crosses the shoot area while moving fast and I know I can press the shot. After a bazillion repetitions of what my mind expects to see, a dot on a shotgun would allow to index that much faster, OO buck at 25 yards as soon as the body occludes the dot may make the difference. It will almost certainly occur more quickly because my mind says "Shoot" when the dot aligns.

I agree with both of you lol.

Maybe the confusion is in what long range is. At even 25 yards a dot will be very fast to index on target. I consider that normal range for a shotgun. My last comment was for 100 yards which I consider long range for a shotgun. At that point the spread of the shot makes any aiming device moot since at that point the shot has spread so far hitting anything would be more random chance. At a normal shotgun range a dot would be a huge advantage precisely for the reasons you guys have stated. Which is also why my first post in the thread was that if I were to grab a shotgun before other things I would want a dot on it.

coastalcop
10-06-2014, 01:55 PM
Dork,

The one place that wouldn't benefit from a dot is a light saber.;) I don't shoot shotguns at 100 yds, were it required due to circumstances I would use my RMR glock. I don't use/carry slugs for the shotty, I have a rifle for that (truth be told, unless I am loaded with beanbags or breacher/backup breacher I don't carry a shotty operationally) .

If my only long tool was a shotty, then I would practice with slugs, our breacher round was polyshok or #4 disintegrating buckshot (I know it disintegrates attack dogs at a crack house) .



Looks like they are going to re-release polyshok as maxstop irp. The polyshok worked very well when we used it.

HillCitySheepdog
10-06-2014, 02:07 PM
With a proper load hitting with 00 at 100yds is repeatable. I have put accurate shots on steel at 125yds with Federal LE133.

Dorkface
10-06-2014, 03:00 PM
Dork,

The one place that wouldn't benefit from a dot is a light saber.;) I don't shoot shotguns at 100 yds, were it required due to circumstances I would use my RMR glock. I don't use/carry slugs for the shotty, I have a rifle for that (truth be told, unless I am loaded with beanbags or breacher/backup breacher I don't carry a shotty operationally) .

If my only long tool was a shotty, then I would practice with slugs, our breacher round was polyshok or #4 disintegrating buckshot (I know it disintegrates attack dogs at a crack house) .



Looks like they are going to re-release polyshok as maxstop irp. The polyshok worked very well when we used it.

Again... I completely agree with you. I will say it one more time just in case. I AGREE WITH YOU. :thumbsup: :beer:

The only reason I said anything about it to begin with was because you mentioned using it at long range. As the range increases the predictability as well as the shear size of the pattern negates even the aiming device. From the way you worded that in your initial post it sounded like a red dot would some how change that. Oddly enough the first class I took from SI was shotgun gunfighting so I'm not ignorant of its use lol. In the shotguns envelope a red dot would be sweet. Sadly the red dot doesn't let us push the envelope of the weapon as it does with our handguns; That is the only reason I mentioned slugs as I bet the red dot would let you throw them out very far lol. Though I'd much rather use a rifle if possible.

I'd bet hitting out real far with 00 buck with something like the flight control wads or some other special load could work but then that kinda defeats the purpose of a shotgun in the first place.

coastalcop
10-06-2014, 03:10 PM
Dork,

I was poking a bit of geeky fun bro. Just like Han, I shot first whenever I could.

Dorkface
10-06-2014, 03:26 PM
I do agree a dot on a light saber would be hilariously absurd... Kinda makes me wanna do it. :haha:

Keep shooting first because it works!

WinstonSmith
10-06-2014, 03:47 PM
Irons only on my light saber, thanks. Actually, those are just for whiny little dorks who want to waste time with their friends searching for power converters. I'll pass on the hokey religion and stick with a blaster.

LawDog
10-06-2014, 04:28 PM
I recall someone writing about using a particular model Eotech on a shotgun because it had a donut rather than a dot. And the donut roughly approximated the shot spread for his load, at least within a certain range. Does anyone have experience with such a plan?

coastalcop
10-06-2014, 05:45 PM
Law, Neat idea if I could get an eotech to survive general cop grungyness. I haven't tried the new smaller units only the linear mounted aa version ( though that turned me off the eotech route)

Gabriel Suarez
10-06-2014, 05:51 PM
IN RE Eotech: I would prefer something smaller that can be cowitnessed.

EEE
10-06-2014, 06:18 PM
I recall someone writing about using a particular model Eotech on a shotgun because it had a donut rather than a dot. And the donut roughly approximated the shot spread for his load, at least within a certain range. Does anyone have experience with such a plan?

Perhaps one of these
http://www.redringsight.com

Gabriel Suarez
10-06-2014, 06:35 PM
Perhaps one of these
http://www.redringsight.com

Well, the main issue with red dot sights coming into the market will be one of robustness. IMHO, anything that costs less than $400 tells me it is a cheap item. I have no idea what that unit costs, but everything sounds great on paper. The C-More (widely used in competition) is totally unsuitable for our uses. Same for the J-Point and the Burris Fastfire. I would need more info and a great deal of T&E time to tell you if it is GTG or a POS.

Moreover, I would avoid using a red dot only. Just as we have back up iron sights on rifles and hand guns, I think these are essential on a fighting weapon, and cowitnessing them with the red dot, an indisputable necessity.

Finally, uniformity makes a great deal of sense. You use a red DOT on the pistol...a red DOT on the rifle, but a red CIRCLE on the shotgun? I'd ratrher have a red dot to use on everything.

chad newton
10-06-2014, 06:50 PM
Shotguns eat up optics, you have to get something good or it will just be a liability.

EEE
10-06-2014, 06:53 PM
Finally, uniformity makes a great deal of sense. You use a red DOT on the pistol...a red DOT on the rifle, but a red CIRCLE on the shotgun? I'd ratrher have a red dot to use on everything.

I would respectfully argue to the contrary. On a pistol or rifle a red dot not only aids in speed, acquisition etc. but also in precision. Emphasis is often placed not only on the CQB type shot but also on the longer 100-200yd shots. In fact red dot manufacturers have been reducing the overall size of their red dots, with many users opting for these smaller versions.

A shotgun on the other hand is not a precision weapon even with the best ammo and therefore having an optic that lends itself to precision may not be the best choice. I could seem situation where a user, attempts a "precision" shot with a shotgun (as they would with a rifle) since the dot is clearly on the target. Based on this thinking, I can see the value of a ring style sight providing the benefits of the red dot as well as the "guard rails" for the weapon choice.

Gabriel Suarez
10-06-2014, 06:57 PM
A shotgun on the other hand is not a precision weapon even with the best ammo and therefore having an optic that lends itself to precision may not be the best choice. I could seem situation where a user, attempts a "precision" shot with a shotgun (as they would with a rifle) since the dot is clearly on the target. Based on this thinking, I can see the value of a ring style sight providing the benefits of the red dot as well as the "guard rails" for the weapon choice.

Restating: You use a red DOT on the pistol...a red DOT on the rifle, but a red CIRCLE on the shotgun? I'd ratrher have a red dot to use on everything.

chad newton
10-06-2014, 07:01 PM
Restating: You use a red DOT on the pistol...a red DOT on the rifle, but a red CIRCLE on the shotgun? I'd ratrher have a red dot to use on everything.
He dosnt get it is why it makes no sense to him. It's like jumping from ar sights to ak. Why not make everything the same while making the platform better in more ways then one.

LawDog
10-06-2014, 07:21 PM
Uniformity appeals to me, too. Part of my question is mere curiosity--I just want to know if it would work.

If you started from scratch building a shotgun optic, you might choose to include both a dot and a donut. Go full Star Trek and make the size of the donut adjustable, so it can be increased and decreased to match the spread of your pellets. And allow the dot to move independent of the donut, because slugs don't always strike directly in the middle of a shot pattern--you might want to set the dot for 100y (slugs) and the donut for 25y (shot).

Sounds complicated, huh? Yep. I never thought I'd be able to program the seat in my wife's car to automatically adjust, at the push of a button, to my preferred settings. The ability to create the optic I just described is within our grasp. The question remains: would we actually want it? I'm not sure I have an answer to that. Certainly some would opt for simple uniformity across platforms. But not everyone would choose that. If someone made such a sight, I'd want to try one. I might go back to the plain red dot afterward, but I like experimenting with new technology (so long as it doesn't break the bank and doesn't compromise reliability).

firebird6
10-06-2014, 07:35 PM
The dot diameter is measured in minutes of angle. A size that will appear larger relative to the target at a longer range. Is there a size of dot that gives a better indicator of shot pattern? Or would you even WANT the dot to have any relation to the pattern? Do not cylinder bore shotgun patterns expand at the rate of 1" per 10 feet? (30 inches at 300 feet) If so, would you want a dot 30 MOA across?

SinistralRifleman
10-06-2014, 07:38 PM
One of the sillier arguments against dots on shotguns is that it is harder to track moving targets. Totally bogus. Both eyes open swing to and pull as moving past the target. With both eyes open the dot is like a bead you can zero without regard for head placement.

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab131/SinistralRifleman/Firearms/2010-Saiga-12_zps7b0a789e.jpg

Dorkface
10-06-2014, 07:56 PM
The dot diameter is measured in minutes of angle. A size that will appear larger relative to the target at a longer range. Is there a size of dot that gives a better indicator of shot pattern? Or would you even WANT the dot to have any relation to the pattern? Do not cylinder bore shotgun patterns expand at the rate of 1" per 10 feet? (30 inches at 300 feet) If so, would you want a dot 30 MOA across?

I believe the rule of thumb is that shot spreads 1 inch every yard it travels with no choke. So at 100 yards the pattern would be a little over 8 feet hehe.

JRude
11-03-2014, 09:05 PM
Reviving this thread with a question;

Long story short, my shotgun RMR is likely moving to a (hot) twin sister of my current rmr17.

I would like to replace the RMR on my benelli m4 with an aimpoint micro t-1, t2, h2, or PRO. I have zero experience with aimpoint.

Due to admin policy I MUST use a QD mount, which will be an ADM of the lowest possible profile. Both options leave the dot at approximately the same height over bore, so the mount should be considered a non issue.

What do you guys suggest?

This shotgun will be used primarily for cqb inside structures with buck but will also need to be capable of pretending to be a rifle out to 100 with slugs.

Nods will be used occasionally but not often and I'm not sure this will even be possible with such a low profile setup unless a laser aiming device is used.

Price difference for the setups is $80-$120 with the PRO being the least costly. disregard the price, this is a work gun.

blastjv
11-04-2014, 03:59 AM
I just moved the Aimpoint Micro H1 from my AK to my Beretta 1301 using the ARMS #31 mount, which is the lowest QD mount available (to my knowledge). It allows a (just barely) co-witnessed sight picture (think lower 1/16th...which is fine) with the ghost ring rifle sights. I have not had it on the range since mounting, but in indoor dry fire I'm liking it a LOT so far! I really like ADM mounts, and if they made a lower version I'd go with them, but for this application I think the ARMS is the way to go. I have not tried an Aimpoint PRO, but think it would be a bit large for this purpose, though the bigger window might be nice, with the H1 sitting so far back it appears pretty big!

-John

coastalcop
11-04-2014, 04:20 AM
One of the sillier arguments against dots on shotguns is that it is harder to track moving targets. Totally bogus. Both eyes open swing to and pull as moving past the target. With both eyes open the dot is like a bead you can zero without regard for head placement.

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab131/SinistralRifleman/Firearms/2010-Saiga-12_zps7b0a789e.jpg



I notice that they are keeping the drone out of the line of fire to the right ;) ( I know its a spent shell, but it would make a great way to get cool BG perspective footage on a stage if someone did use the hobby type)

JRude
11-04-2014, 11:33 AM
That arms mount for the micro looks like it might ride a full 1/8" lower than the adm. Thanks for the heads up. Are they as durable?

blastjv
11-04-2014, 11:44 AM
I have not beaten up on either my ARMS or ADM mounts, so I can't really comment as to durability. The ADM definitely seems like a more durable method of attachment, but I believe Gabe has previously deemed the ARMS good to go on AK's, so I defer to him and others who have more experience with them.

SinistralRifleman
11-04-2014, 11:53 AM
I notice that they are keeping the drone out of the line of fire to the right ;) ( I know its a spent shell, but it would make a great way to get cool BG perspective footage on a stage if someone did use the hobby type)

Forgotten Weapons has one he has been using in some local matches. Neat stuff.

John Chambers
11-04-2014, 01:05 PM
The ARMS is a good mount as is the ADM. Best solution would be to try them both and see which one lines up to your eye the best since even with RDS, with a shotgun, FIT is everything. In the same vein, I would go with the T1 since the micro sights are much lighter compared to the PRO. With NODS, use either an IR laser, or alternative sighting methods to hit at close range, which I know for a fact you are able to do very well!


Reviving this thread with a question;

Long story short, my shotgun RMR is likely moving to a (hot) twin sister of my current rmr17.

I would like to replace the RMR on my benelli m4 with an aimpoint micro t-1, t2, h2, or PRO. I have zero experience with aimpoint.

Due to admin policy I MUST use a QD mount, which will be an ADM of the lowest possible profile. Both options leave the dot at approximately the same height over bore, so the mount should be considered a non issue.

What do you guys suggest?

This shotgun will be used primarily for cqb inside structures with buck but will also need to be capable of pretending to be a rifle out to 100 with slugs.

Nods will be used occasionally but not often and I'm not sure this will even be possible with such a low profile setup unless a laser aiming device is used.

Price difference for the setups is $80-$120 with the PRO being the least costly. disregard the price, this is a work gun.

Scott Vandiver
11-04-2014, 03:05 PM
With a proper load hitting with 00 at 100yds is repeatable. I have put accurate shots on steel at 125yds with Federal LE133.

You guys should know this can only be done with "00 buck " from certian manufactures that use the new FLight control wad. Tt is designed not to open up like a traditional 3 finger shot cup.

babue
11-04-2014, 07:51 PM
I used a replacement quick release lever and parts to replace the factory parts on my micro. You can not get any lower than that.
If you google " AIMPOINT MICRO LRP THROW LEVER MOUNT KIT" you should be able to find it. I use it on my FS2000 for a perfect co-witness with
the factory sights.

JRude
11-04-2014, 11:02 PM
I used a replacement quick release lever and parts to replace the factory parts on my micro. You can not get any lower than that.
If you google " AIMPOINT MICRO LRP THROW LEVER MOUNT KIT" you should be able to find it. I use it on my FS2000 for a perfect co-witness with
the factory sights.

Wow, that is an obvious solution.. And $38. How,do you feel about its durability?

babue
11-05-2014, 02:54 PM
Wow, that is an obvious solution.. And $38. How,do you feel about its durability?

It is the same type of setup I have on an EoTech and since the tightness is adjustable and the pieces seem to made heavy enough
I think it should hold up fine. I have had mine on and off only a few times but it has locked back down with the same tight feel each time.
Once I got it set the way I wanted I did put a small drop of purple Loctite on the screw threads just so it would not work it's way loose.
I also figured for $38 I could not go to far wrong. A shotgun probably will put more stress on the mount but the pieces seem strong enough
that it would be worth a try.

Topmaul
11-06-2014, 09:47 PM
I had one on my "bear" gun and one on my "game gun", swapped them back and forth but never really reaped huge benefits from them. They didn't look as slick as the setup you pictured. I am interested to see where this goes as well, but for now, I am just running rifle sights on mine for those longer shots that require aiming versus just pointing.
39859 My Saiga has a Delta Point mounted on the barrel up forward a few inches in front of the gas block. I can co-witness the sights with no problem.

barnetmill
01-19-2017, 05:15 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZxLU4fAjCk

mike135
01-19-2017, 08:17 AM
Haha I saw that as well and immediately thought of the conversations here!

Also, The Firearm Blog just ran a story on a mount for the Beretta 1301 designed to co-witness an AimPoint with the regular sights from Aridus Industries.

EDELWEISS
01-19-2017, 09:01 AM
Cant say I'm a fan of vent ribs (OK on a Python....) on shotguns. I know some guys swear by them and maybe theres even some actual use; but I don't like'em....That alone is why Ive stayed away from the new Remington autoloader and I just passes on a 11/87 (with a vent rib) at a good price. Although the 11/87 keeps calling me for a 7188 build. Shhhhh :shh: I know its silly but I want a 7188 even without the giggle switch

Rex G
01-19-2017, 01:09 PM
Cant say I'm a fan of vent ribs (OK on a Python....) on shotguns. I know some guys swear by them and maybe theres even some actual use; but I don't like'em....That alone is why Ive stayed away from the new Remington autoloader and I just passes on a 11/87 (with a vent rib) at a good price. Although the 11/87 keeps calling me for a 7188 build. Shhhhh :shh: I know its silly but I want a 7188 even without the giggle switch

My eyes have not liked Remington 870 vent ribs, and some other shotgun ribs, with bead sights in a way that is difficult to describe, but a vent rib barrel, with factory red fiber-optic bead, on a recently-bought pre-owned Benelli M2, works fine, as the rib does not play any tricks with my sight picture. I installed an 18.5" iron-sight barrel, from an M2 Tactical, anyway, but it is interesting that the ribbed Benelli barrel worked for me. (The M2 Tactical barrel was a like-new take-off I bought pre-owned several years ago.)

I had thought I might sell the ribbed Benelli barrel, but I may, instead, cut it to a fightin' length, and perhaps install an RDS, or one of the newly-announced Aimpoint Micro S-1 sights.

Gabriel Suarez
01-19-2017, 01:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZxLU4fAjCk


In my opinion a red dot needs to be much closer to the eye. One way in the %%%###%% out there is a waste and virtually useless.

barnetmill
01-19-2017, 03:57 PM
In my opinion a red dot needs to be much closer to the eye. One way in the %%%###%% out there is a waste and virtually useless.

Thanks, I was wondering about that. It is the way that I did setup my AK with an aim point with ultimak to get co-witness, but not so far out as they did with that shotgun .

blastjv
01-19-2017, 04:47 PM
Yeah, jeez, if you mount it out that far on the rib you basically just have a $600 red fiber optic bead...

Gabriel Suarez
01-19-2017, 05:50 PM
CLUE:

The closer to the eye, the bigger the window to look through.

Infidelarsenal1
01-19-2017, 09:38 PM
Red dot location (distance from my face) hasn't ever been an issue for me. Its not as if everything outside the sight window is blacked out.

Gabriel Suarez
01-20-2017, 04:46 AM
I put mine as far forward on the receiver as I can get it. I have a friend with one all the way at the end of a 10" SBR, and while you're not wrong, it's not nearly as fast to pick up and not forgiving at all if you're not centered. I also can't seem to keep the dot and target in focus the way I can with it closer to my eye.


Whatdoyouknow....I know a few things after all....even if I am not a millenial.

azDevilsFan
01-20-2017, 05:05 AM
I put mine as far forward on the receiver as I can get it. I have a friend with one all the way at the end of a 10" SBR, and while you're not wrong, it's not nearly as fast to pick up and not forgiving at all if you're not centered. I also can't seem to keep the dot and target in focus the way I can with it closer to my eye.
You mean to say that simple geometry actually has real world application!? Whoda thunk it? :facepalm2::facepalm2:

Gabriel Suarez
01-20-2017, 05:09 AM
You know...it is amazing when a true subject matter experts with a huge amount of life experience says "This is what I think is best", and a twenty-something whose nuts still haven't descended says, "Well...I like it this way instead".

Papa
01-20-2017, 05:17 AM
You know...it is amazing when a true subject matter experts with a huge amount of life experience says "This is what I think is best", and a twenty-something whose nuts still haven't descended says, "Well...I like it this way instead".

"Why don't we WALK down the hill and f--- them all?"