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jackinfl
01-24-2004, 03:35 PM
I am putting a proposal together for my PD to carry the Glock Pistols in 9mm and .45 acp as that is the approved ammo.
Anyone with any comments good or bad would be appreciated.

Now we can carry Sigs, HK, S&W, Ruger. They have to be double/single or double action only.

I like the Glock for a few reasons. Feel, reliability, cost (we have to buy our own), magazine capacity, "safe action" system, one single consistent trigger pull, no decocking after firing. This one I have personal experience with. After a shooting I put my USP away in single action. I did not know I needed to decock until I tried to snap my holster. That wouls have been embarassing kill the bad guy but shoot myself..... No fine motor skills needed.

Thanks in advance.

David DiFabio and Gabe if you two have any insight please share.
Gabe I read the combative perspective in one sitting, awesome!!! Thank You for sharing your experience.
Jack

MACOP
01-24-2004, 05:11 PM
Does your proposal mean your PD would be restricted to Glocks alone, or would they be an additional choice?

Personally, I am required to carry a G22.

I would be very happy if we were allowed to carry some of the guns you listed as being currently available.

I am not speaking ill of Glocks. However, given my choice I would prefer a USP, or a Sig.

If you don't feel the decocking issues can be rectified with training, then think about the HK LEM trigger option, and the new Sig DAO trigger option they are offering with the 229R. I believe it is called the DAK trigger. Both systems do away with decocking.

I LIKE the 'these are your choices, pick one' school of thought. As quaint as it sounds, one size does not fit all, and I do better work with my USP and my P220 than I do with the G22.
************************
It's good to have a plan.
SteveB

MTS
01-24-2004, 05:41 PM
Is there some reason they have not been approved already?

You already allow a wide choice of pistols in DA/SA or SAO. Since officers furnish their own weapons cannot Glocks just be added to the list?

jackinfl
01-24-2004, 07:34 PM
The PD does have alot of choices. Which I think is great.
The proposal will just add these guns to the list. Not make it the only gun available.
I think the reason that they are not approved now is old thinking. When Glocks first came out I understand that Accidental discharges went way up, due to the box design or some crazy thing like that???? I also know we have alot of old way of thinking people arond that have to be spoon fed change.
Several years ago when an officer did a proposal for the USP the administrations view was "ok just because it is a high capacity 45 we will allow it, but what are we going to get rid of...." Thankfully for my preference we pushed in the 9mm also in the USP.

we also can carry Beretta's. We do have allot of guns available, and I am not even sure I will switch, but if someone down the road wants to carry one it is worth the effort.

As far as the decocking problem: I have trained alot, and in training I decock and holster, however I guess in real life my adreniline was so jacked up that this was not done as I moved in to cuff the suspect..... I am not the only one this has happened to am I? Any comments are appreciated.

DaveJames
01-24-2004, 08:25 PM
jack, can you give us any of the reason the others were approved?
What kind of training are you require to go thru before carry your pick of the litter?

For us Glocks are not approve for Duty carry, but are on the list for off duty, and this was done after the Chief sent me to the glock armour class, and then we set down and discussed the pistol and its safety features.

Have to ask, on the decock thing,you had him at gun point? Had you fired any rounds? If not why was the weapon cocked?

When we switched over to the SIG,we had to fire a 1000 rds per man, and part of the range practiced was that every round fired,was followed by the student yelling out DECOCK, and an instructor standing behind him verifing it was done,then we went onto doubles and other drills, the other thing we teach them to do,as the pistol is going back into the holster the thumb slides up next to or on top of the hammer, for that last tactile feel to know the hammer is down.

jackinfl
01-25-2004, 06:24 AM
Dave James,
I do not know the exact reason that the other guns were approved, however I am assuming firing pin safety, and other mechanical safety devices. Also, I would think alot weighs on what other BIG agencies carry i.e. FBI, LAPD the such.

I think the main problem with the GLOCK in the eyes of the admin. is that when the gun is cocked 70% of the trigger load is already cocked as opposedd to having the long heavy first double action pull.(I don't Know if this is true or not)

We had an incident years ago where muscular instability caused a death. An officer was patting down someone with his gun in his hand the guy pushed off and the cop slipped on a rock and the natural reaction is everything curls in and the gun was fired that sticks alot in peoples minds even though that was at least 10 years ago if not more.

As far as my situation I did fire then reloaded and had to fire more. I was ambushed on a search and a cop next to me was shot in the back. I have never had a problem in Training. Regular shooting and enduced stress shooting. I think I was just so jacked up on adreniline having just won a gunfight. I felt the symptons of stress: Tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and time distortion. This is just me. I read gabe's excellent book and he did not feel those items in his shootings. Different people I assume are effected differently.


What I am looking for I guess are PROS and Cons for why the Glock should be included on our list or disregarded given all the other excellent choices?????

Thanks guys,
Talking about things help

NewMedico
01-25-2004, 08:17 AM
Jack,
Now many of the Big agencies are issuing Glock or it is on there allowed list. FBI, DEA, LAPD, NYPD--maybe you can use that as ammo when you talk to your management. If they are still resistant maybe mention the "New York" trigger with a heavier pull. Seems to me the best firearms policy is to have a large "approved list" (with in common sense) and allow officers to carry what they have the most confidence in.

NM Eric

Skpotamus
01-25-2004, 10:11 AM
I don't know if it's true or just marketing BS, but Glock claims that something like 70% of the US law enforcement agencies carry a Glock.

Pros of the glock:
Accuracy: In last months Combat Handguns Chuck Taylor locked his Gen 1 Glock 22 in a ransom vice and recorded 25 yard groups. With Federal Hydrashocks, his groups were something like 0.73"

Reliability: Look at the Glock 17 "Torture Test" to see what the Glocks can go through and still fire.

Ease of use: There's one way and one way only to fire a glock, and that's by pulling the trigger. The gun cannot be fired any other way, no decockers, no external safeties to fumble with, nothing else but that trigger. If you have to get your gun out and use it quickly, all you have to do is draw and squeeze.

Interchangability of magazines: If a person has a glock 17 (fullsize 9mm) and goes down, another person with a smaller 9mm glock can still use his mags. Meaning the Glock 19 (compact) and Glock 26(baby or subcompact) can use the larger capacity mags, which means you can carry multiple guns that all fire the same round, out of the same mag. While it doesn't really sound all that useful, if the s**t really hits the fan, this might be the difference between life and death.

Quick/short reset on trigger pull: The shorter reset of the glock trigger means that you can follow up with quicker double and triple taps, How much quicker? Well, it's not going to be something that's hard to really measure with any type of standard equipment, but it does make a difference.

Cons of the glock:
Safety: There's one way and one way only to fire a glock, and that's by pulling the trigger. While this in itself isn't a bad thing, many of the accidental discharges are blamed on their lack of external safeties, the real issue, however is improper firearm safety and handling skills. Everybody knows the bsic firearm safety rules, Follow the rules and we'll all be fine.

Sights: The factory standard sights are plastic, which IMO is the main failing of the glock, get those replaced with Meprolights or Trijicons (I prefer mepro's) and you're in good shape. Also, the factory standard sights aren't the normal sights us Americans are used to. They are set up in what's called a "European Hold." We're used to lining up the tops of our front and rear sights for a perfect sight picture. Euro hold sights require you to line up the white line on the rear sight with the center of your front post's white dot. Meaning that sometimes you have to "search" for your perfect sight picture. Once again, that can be fixed by putting on Mepro's or Trijicons (which are American Hold).

Grips: Many people like to customize the grips of their handguns, since the glock frame is all one piece, the only thing you can do is add Agrip (best choice IMHO), skateboard tape, or a hogue/butler creek slip on grip. OR: send your glock to somebody and have them permenantly alter your grip. I actually find the standard glock grip comfortable, but did add Agrip to my gun to handle sweat on my hands/gun.


I hope that helps a little bit.

Comments or anything I missed?

MTS
01-25-2004, 11:24 AM
jackinfl,

I don't know if this would mean anything to your admin but as far as I know everyone of the Federal "Alphabets" (FBI, DEA, EPA, etc.) either issue or authorize Glocks.

They have been authorised by NYPD for 10 years(?) or so and LAPD is in the process of allowing their officers to switch to them.

If there was a problem with them I do not think you would see the wide spread use/acceptence of them.

Perhaps you could sit down with your admin and find out any specific questions they might have and post them here.

Or at your next range session have a few there and let your admin shoot them.

MACOP
01-25-2004, 02:20 PM
jackinfl wrote:

"As far as my situation I did fire then reloaded and had to fire more. I was ambushed on a search and a cop next to me was shot in the back. I have never had a problem in Training. Regular shooting and enduced stress shooting. I think I was just so jacked up on adreniline having just won a gunfight."

Let me start off by saying GOOD JOB, BROTHER. I am glad it was you who finished first.

Let me finish by saying that when I mentioned the training issues in my original reply, I was not making disparaging remarks about your gun handling. Many people don't like the decocking motion. Many people more knowledgeable than myself don't like it because of the same thing that happened to you-you put a cocked gun in your holster.

As far as what makes the Glock a good choice, Mark Swain and Skpotamus have listed very good reasons for making them optional.
********************************
It's good to have a plan.
SteveB

michael
01-25-2004, 02:53 PM
I don't think there is a problem with either a Glock or Sig, Beretta, etc. It is a training issue. In my shooting, after ascertaining that the threat was over, I decocked and holstered my Sig P226 as I had trained. It was not even a conscious decison, just something I did.

DaveJames
01-25-2004, 08:39 PM
jack, thanks for the answers, and I too am glad that you came out on top, I have lost to many brothers and sisters in 31 years, can't really add any thing to the pros and cons that others haven't listed.

The one thing that impressed the Chief was the ability to train on the Glock quicker than the others,, i.e. no extra bells and whistles, just reading you shooting in the department 10 years ago, point out to the Chief , that training at that time may have not stressed finger off the trigger, We had this problem for awhile in the 70's as we were still being trained to place our finger on the trigger as we cleared the holster{revolver carry}