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bae4
01-20-2006, 06:13 AM
Question: Do you prefer a Pistol Grip with a buttstock or a standard buttstock setup on a shotgun?

DaveJames
01-20-2006, 08:15 AM
Depends on whats it for..

bae4
01-20-2006, 08:18 AM
What would be the advantages and disadvantages of each?

Erich
01-20-2006, 11:12 AM
Well, for bird hunting, I like a semi-pistol stock on my over-and-unders and a straight stock on my side-by-sides. I used to be an over-and-under kind of guy, but I'm beginning to feel that the side-bys have real merits that make them work better for gunning birds (at least in the hands of someone who knows what he's doing).

For shotgun gunfighting? By all means, a pistol-grip stock with a buttstock! I like the kind that fold, just for storage (but I would never advocate shooting a shotgun with a folded stock or just a pistol grip!).

I believe the advantage of this system is that it enables you to aim better with the pump or semiauto gun (pistol grips give you more of a "rifle" feel - which is why they're anathema to side-by-side shooting - shotgunning for birds is more art than science) at the short ranges with the fat buck or slug rounds you'll be spewing. I also believe it will help control recoil better in this sort of shooting and that it helps one wrest the gun through any necessary maneuvers (when one is bird-hunting, one doesn't have to worry about the bird attacking you from your flank - not so when one is clearing a building with an 870).

Anthony
01-20-2006, 11:20 AM
Now there is a post from somebody who IMHO really knows what he is talking about with reference this subject.
Thank you Erich.
So bae4, just as DaveJames asked, - "What's it for ?"
My 0.02 cents,
If you have and are well accustomed to rifles having a pistol grip ( ie: an AR/AK etc,) then it would make sense to have one on your fighting shotgun too.
But not on sport guns.
Regards,
Anthony.

Crucible
01-20-2006, 12:11 PM
Agreed Anthony; I find I like my 870 much more with the pistol grip on the SpecOps stock (pistol grip and CAR-like stock) as it relates to my experience with M16's while in the Corps....it's just natural for my hand to search for a pistol grip when picking up a long arm, and I'm more comfortable when there is one. (Not to say straight-stocked weapons are an enigma by any means, but you get the point.)

Also, I find it allows more consistant (back)force to be put on the weapon in holding back in the pocket of one's shoulder than with a straight stock alone.

Chris

MTS
01-20-2006, 01:02 PM
I have an AR15 buttstock adaptor with a "Sully" stock on my 870. It shortens the length of pull and provides better recoil management for me, YMMV.

banzai7
01-20-2006, 02:01 PM
Pistol Grip for combat shotguns. Makes the in-close type work easier. I can open doors or use a back up light much better when the SG has a pistol grip with a full stock.

DaveJames
01-20-2006, 02:10 PM
I kind of go for both , again depending,, I have one on my Auto-10 for turkey / deer hunting, and have used them on the departments 870's, but like Erich On bird guns I prefer the "english" open stock

Gabriel Suarez
01-20-2006, 02:36 PM
I have to ask what you will be using the shotgun for.

For general purpose I suggest there is more utility to a standard stock than a pistol grip stock. It also has advantages of commonality of skill (what our friend Crafty Dog calls consistecy across categories) when using the shotgun as an emergency impact weapon. Incidentally, this is something we plan to explore in our DVD projects.

If your plan is to keep the shotgun shouldered for long periods of time (as in a building search or a SWT event) a pistol grip stock will minimize muscular fatigue. Other than that, I find no advantages to that stock.

There is a third category - pistol grip only stock. I see these very often in Central America. They are at a disavantage for anything beyond room distances, but at those distances, in the hands of a strong person, it is as devastating as any other shotgun, and has the added advantages of extreme maneuverability.

Guantes
01-20-2006, 03:26 PM
I have one of each and I am equally comfortable with either. I agree with Gabe that the regular stock is somewhat more versatile. With the pistol grip, to manipulate the weapon one handed or hold it on line the stock must be tucked in the armpit. With the standard stock, it can be manipulated in that way or the stock can be tucked under the forearm and bone structure does most of the work holding the weapon up. You cannot do this with a pistol grip. Additionally, it is more difficult to deliver a butt stroke with a pistol grip. Perhaps small, but noticeable differences.

michael
01-20-2006, 03:42 PM
I prefer the standard stock, and agree completely with Gabe's assessment. I find no real advantage to a pistol grip with standard stock. I simply tuck the standard stock under my arm for up-close work, and find that manages the recoil nicely. I've used Binelli's with the pistol grip/stock set-up, but didn't really notice that they improved recoil management or ease of use over a standard stock.

Anthony
01-20-2006, 03:51 PM
I agree that a normal stock should not be a disadvantage, it is just that I believe in trying to be consistent.
So;
If we are more familiar with pistol grip rifles, why not fit one on our fighting shotguns ?
That is all. :)
Here in Brazil, the pistol gripped shotgun is commonly seen in the hands of security guards.
At really close distances ( across a room for example,) I can accept this.
But not any further out.
I like a full stock.
I have a full stock on my side by side 13" brl Rossi hammer gun.
It stands beside my bed.
It will be used at room distances if needed. - It has 2 x 3" magnum 000 buckshot rounds loaded in it.
I don't worry about a reload. - A reload will be a revolver or two. ;)
Regards,
Anthony.

Geezer
01-20-2006, 04:19 PM
The title line is a quote from V42 who characterized all of my posts as such. Perhaps he is right?

I've owned a Mossberg 500 for many years. When I was younger, and did a bunch of rock hounding & fossil hunting, I carried it with a pistol grip stock, slung over my back. That left my hands free for the rock hammer, picking up specimens and such. With the pistol grip stock, it was short enough not to get in the way when I would kneel down to check out something on the ground. Fossickers walk hunched over, hands behind their back, I don't know why, it just works out that way. A short relatively tight sling kept the gun on my back, and not sliding down around the side of my body.

When I gave that up, I took off the pistol grip and put on the standard stock, but chopped off 1", technique credits for the "gun smithing" go to Chuck Burnett.:D

My experience was that the pistol grip made it very hard to control the recoil. At that time I was a relatively strong fellow, but short..5'-8". In order to control the recoil and get any kind of accuracy past ten feet after the first round, i had to use the sling as a brace. It was punishing for me (OK, I'm a wuss, I've already admitted that elsewhere on this forum.) to shoot the gun, and my training ammo lasted a long time.

With the chopped stock, it is a pleasure to shoot, have done it all day long a couple of days in succession, hundreds of rounds of 00 and slugs, and found it a joy. It is my home defense weapon.

Apropos of Erich's comments, when an economical opportunity presented itself to shorten the stock on my BPS waterfowl gun, I did so and it improved my shooting immensely, also made 3" magnums a pleasure to shoot. Amazing how much easier it is for me to hit stuff when I'm not cringing in anticipation of the recoil!:eek:

Everybody is different, but that is my experience.

God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

Anthony
01-20-2006, 04:30 PM
I had to use the sling as a brace.
That is the way that Brit SFs use H&K MP5s. ( At least they did.)
Push the gun out against the pressure of the sling.
Not as good as a shouldered weapon, but it works Geezer, as you obviously know.
Regards,
Anthony.

Gabriel Suarez
01-20-2006, 04:42 PM
Gents,

The reality of use is that there is a possibility of having to use the SGN as an alternative force weapon. The idea that you'll use it at 25 yards is hopeful but unrealistic. Think of a building and using the SGN there. There is a likelihood of needing the butt stroke and muzzle strike. I used these a bunch back in the old days.

Go grab up your pistol gripped SGN and try it. Not so easy. Just something you should consider if you anticipate CQB use. Maybe we can do a segment on this at WTS3. WHo knows.

OTOH, Anthony's comment on weapon commonality has definite merit.

Erich
01-20-2006, 04:54 PM
Well, the "gun as cudgel" idea is something that I hadn't considered. What I was thinking about, though, was the idea that I might have to fire the gun at short ranges with either an imperfect or nonexistent shoulder weld on the buttstock. I think the pistol grip enables the shottie to be twisteed and fired a lot better in these "ohmyGodhe'schargingfromrightthere" situations than a standard buttstock.

On the other hand, as I said, I purely hate pistol-grip-only shotguns. Gabe is right, if the operator is very strong and very trained, it's a great and maneuverable short-range weapon. I just don't happen to be that well trained (I have this bizarre desire to shoulder my guns - too many live and clay birds, I guess) and I'm only moderately strong.

I do think that the pistol-grip-with-buttstock gun gives all the maneuverability and firing at odd angle advantages of the pistol-grip-only gun, although at the cost of the additional length messing up maneuverability (as I said, I like the folding kind, but only for storage - I would never suggest one should fold and unfold the stock while moving around with the weapon armed). And, I agree that the standard buttstock is a better set-up for cudgel duty.

Gabriel Suarez
01-20-2006, 05:07 PM
There is an alternate pistol grip only you might take a second look at. It was first seen on the Witness Protection Shotguns. We had one at the class in Atlanta.

The Standard PG Only stock puts the wrist in a disadvantaged position. Bad angle to absorb recoil. The WP Pistol Grip Only is basically a standard stock, cut off at the juncture of the buttstock. It is very pleasant to shoot and offers options the "regular" pistol grip does not.

Erich
01-21-2006, 06:38 AM
I've seen those!

But only in catalogs - I think the Speedfeed people make one.

I wondered how it would work/feel - thank you for the report! :)

alamo
01-21-2006, 07:03 AM
I have two Mossberg shotguns and use the standard stock.The safety ison top of the receiver.Ifyou use a pistolgrip stock you can`t handle it easily. Competition rules in Germany demand that the muzzle must show to the target everytime while you are reloading. So you have to turn the shotgun 180o to reload. The pistol grip obstructs this kind of reloading.

Cold War Scout
01-21-2006, 07:27 AM
I prefer a pistol grip, folding stock.

XMeister
01-21-2006, 10:04 AM
I prefer a simple, semi pistol grip/stock for my shotgun. I grew up with one in my hands and I feel far more comfortable with it. That being said, if I had to kick in doors for a living, the full stock with a pistol grip makes sense- easier control with one hand. For now, I'll stick with what I am the more comfortable with.

Will

JohnH11B
01-21-2006, 10:34 AM
I voted for standard.That's what I've been shooting shotguns with since I was old enough to start hunting with my own gun under dads watchful eye. We have pistol gripped shotguns at my PD, but I prefer the standard. Maybe I'm odd:rolleyes:

Anthony
01-21-2006, 12:44 PM
There is an alternate pistol grip only you might take a second look at. It was first seen on the Witness Protection Shotguns. We had one at the class in Atlanta.

The Standard PG Only stock puts the wrist in a disadvantaged position. Bad angle to absorb recoil. The WP Pistol Grip Only is basically a standard stock, cut off at the juncture of the buttstock. It is very pleasant to shoot and offers options the "regular" pistol grip does not.
Very interesting Gabe.
I've seen many pistol grips like this, on pump action shotguns used by security guards here in Brazil.
I had always assumed the companies just couldn't be bothered, or couldn't afford to buy real pistol grips.
Perhaps I was wrong. - Perhaps I am right, and that the companies have given their officers a better pistol grip without realising it.

A good friend of mine has cut his double brl Rossi stock down just this way that you describe.
He has also cut the brls down to just in front of the forend.
Before illegal carry became a crime instead of a misdomeanor, he carried it in his car as a first responce weapon to a carjacking.
I have fired this 'sawn off' of his, and it is comfortable to fire, and at close range ( a couple of yards,) is devestating on the targets with buckshot.
Fortunatly he never had to use the weapon on the street.
Regards,
Anthony.

firebird6
01-22-2006, 09:20 PM
Try a weapon rention drill with both types. I think youll find its easier to loose a pistol grip than a normal stock.

FB6

Shotgun
01-24-2006, 01:54 PM
I have a pistol grip only Mossberg 500. I installed a folding stock on it because the pistol grip only configuration was somewhat limiting. On the whole I would vote for a standard stock. I think there are some retention issues with pistol grip long guns. There is no perfect gun for every situation, so everything is a compromise.

Michael Biggs
01-24-2006, 07:30 PM
Get a cadet or bantam stock without the pistol grip.

coop158
01-24-2006, 08:17 PM
I have two Mossberg shotguns and use the standard stock.The safety ison top of the receiver.Ifyou use a pistolgrip stock you can`t handle it easily. Competition rules in Germany demand that the muzzle must show to the target everytime while you are reloading. So you have to turn the shotgun 180o to reload. The pistol grip obstructs this kind of reloading.

Agreed. With the 870 type safety the pistolgrip stock works fine but with the safety on top of the receiver I find the pistolgrip stock very ackward. I found this out when I put a pistolgrip stock on a mossberg 590. I quickly traded the stock for a standard speed feed stock.

Aries
02-05-2006, 02:29 PM
I have to ask what you will be using the shotgun for.

For general purpose I suggest there is more utility to a standard stock than a pistol grip stock. It also has advantages of commonality of skill (what our friend Crafty Dog calls consistecy across categories) when using the shotgun as an emergency impact weapon. Incidentally, this is something we plan to explore in our DVD projects.

If your plan is to keep the shotgun shouldered for long periods of time (as in a building search or a SWT event) a pistol grip stock will minimize muscular fatigue. Other than that, I find no advantages to that stock.

There is a third category - pistol grip only stock. I see these very often in Central America. They are at a disavantage for anything beyond room distances, but at those distances, in the hands of a strong person, it is as devastating as any other shotgun, and has the added advantages of extreme maneuverability.
One advantage I see you did not point out for a pistol grip stock is combat loading. I find I can keep the weapon pointed at the threat as I reload and can even keep it in the shoulder and reload.