Questions for the lawyers

[Housertl]

Hey, not sure if this really fits into the Entrepreneur section, but figured it was better than the Open Sources forum.

I may be able to get into a Navy program that just started up that would put me through law school to be a JAG officer, while I get paid to do so. I believe that my personality/temperment would be well suited to being an attorney, and I have an idea of what I would like to work in (space law), but I wanted to ask for the input of the attorneys in the tribe. If I did this, I would end up doing 10 years as JAG lawyer in the Navy, and could then end up going to private practice or joining a firm.

If you had this opportunity, knowing what you know of the law industry now, would you take it? What are the things you like best about being a lawyer, and what do you like the least?

Thanks!

[TFA303]

I'm not a JAG, but I will tell you from a Navy standpoint that the JAG Corps is probably the worst-infected part of the Navy for politically-correct BS. I'm glad I'll be retiring soon; not sure I could stand ten years in what the military has become, and my community is more insulated from it. Only you can decide if you're ok with, say, prosecuting a case against a sailor who just said, "I think homos are gross" and refused to apologize- and I think it's clear that we're going to be seeing a lot of that stuff.

[Mr. Anthony]

My standard advice for ANYONE who asks if they should go to law school is:

"If you have a burning desire in your soul to be an attorney--if you can imagine no better career for yourself, and just KNOW deep down that that's what you're meant to do with your life, yes, by all means go to law school. If it 'seems like a good idea', or you 'think it will open some doors', or 'think you might like it', then NO. Emphatically no; do not go."

Law school is three years of your life that you have to treat like a full-time job. It's absurdly expensive and saddles you with debt, and most markets are flush with new attorneys looking for a very limited number of mediocre jobs.

In your case, if you can get through with zero debt, and get paid on the side, that changes the equation...but my first point still applies.

[Swab]

Just my opinion and not to denigrate or insult. Most causes of the social problems in this country fall on two professions. Psychologists and Lawyers.

[WinstonSmith]

Just my opinion and not to denigrate or insult. Most causes of the social problems in this country fall on two professions. Psychologists and Lawyers.

I guess "politicians" fall into the lawyer category.

[firebird6]

This is where you find out what kind of character you have. I have given a variation of this talk to many young people most of them do not listen.

Do you like petty squabbles between people who lie to you, can not afford to pay you, treat you like something stuck on their shoes, insult you and pretend its a joke? Do you enjoy hearing how you as the big shot attorney need to foot the bill for everything from lunch to their divorce because you make all this money? Are you ready to go to trial because your home owner association client thinks that all doors in the complex should be earth tones, some guy painted his red, your boss does not want to lose the client and makes you go to Trial so the boss doesn't look like a dumbass? And you lose and look like the dumbass for him. ( Saw THAT last week) When you use logic and facts to correctly dissuade a friend, relative, or loved one from a foolish course of action do you enjoy being told, that it is because you are a lawyer and like to argue and must always be right and thus are always WRONG? Do you enjoy filling out forms? Wearing a suit when it is 95 degrees outside and walking through the heat through a park full of bums to deliver papers to a Court in the worst part of town unarmed because of Court security so Mr. Deadbeat can keep the repo man from taking his truck, that he hasn't made payments on in a year? Are you prepared to answer a complaint to the bar association about your ethics because a client really does not want to pay your bill? What will you do when a sexy client offers sex to pay the bill and when you refuse, she blames you instead? Or you do take her to dinner, after the case, and a colleague finds out and reports you to the bar association so SHE, the colleague, can get your office? Are you a member of a recognized and privileged minority group? Are you a liberal democrat?

I will not recommend anyone go to law school unless their parents have a lucrative practice they can take over after graduation with a captive client list. You will not practice Space Law exclusively, if ever. To do so you will need the best school, best grades largest firm in LA or NY and you will need to be a privileged minority. A JAG who enters private practice has little experience that translates into civilian courts. If you will enjoy the above conditions and can do so driving a used Subaru you might have what it takes. If you think it will be anything like TV or the movies and expect to make 6 figures in less than 2 decades of practice. Think medical school. Think radiology, or pharmacy.

[LawDog]

Most days, I really like my job. On a bad day, my advice might sound like firebird's. But when I really consider the options, I'm pretty happy. Lawyers tend to tell their sons to be doctors; doctors tell their sons to be lawyers. I believe that this is just a product of how the grass looks on the other side of the fence. Notice that neither doctors nor lawyers tell their sons to skip college and get a stable job with a union or the government.

There is a wide, wide field of work for lawyers, but "space law" is new to me. I'm really not sure how many jobs exist in that market. Right after graduation (which is when the field is still wide open and you are looking around at all of the options), I expected to become kind of a small-town general practitioner. Part of my thought was that the variety of work would keep me interested. If I were in grade school today, I have no doubt that they would diagnose me with some 'disease' that includes multiple A's and D's. I have ended up as a specialist in criminal and constitutional law, doing just trial work. (If a case goes up on appeal, I send it along to someone else.) I have found that this field has plenty of variety for me. There is no end to the entertainment. Some days are frustrating. Clients are often unreasonable. But the work suits me. I have found a profession in which it is an attribute to be an overly-aggressive contrarian.

If you go to law school, it will be one-and-a-half of the toughest years of your life. I say one-and-a-half, not three, because of the realities of school. During the first year, you will want to die. Your head be constantly swimming. You will not have enough time to sleep. You will have no recreation. It is the equivalent of intellectual boot camp, but it goes on for a year. During your second year (assuming you make it through the first year), you will begin to feel like you are up on top of the wave. The professors will still be working you to death, but you will begin to realize that you can do it. By the second semester of your 2L year, you might actually be able to get a whole six hours of sleep occasionally. By the third year, you are coasting. There is still a lot of reading; there is still a lot of work, but you are now intellectually conditioned. The boot camp analogy is actually pretty close to reality. As we get older, the thought of strapping a 50-pound ruck to our backs and running up a mountain sounds pretty gruesome. But when you are fresh out of boot camp, it's no problem; you know that you can do it, because you have very recently done it. Your 3L year is when you are at the height of intellectual conditioning.

At no point in law school will you be spending hours sitting around bars or coffee shops with your friends, waxing philosophical and posing inane hypothetical questions to one another. That's Hollywood. Real life is work. When you get together with friends for study sessions, it's not all fun and games. You will also learn a painful lesson from your classmates: You are not as smart as you think you are. From kindergarten through college, I really cannot recall a time when I was not the smartest guy in the room. I know that sounds arrogant, but it is also true. When I look back on those teenage years, when every kid is convinced that he is smarter than his teachers, I now see that I faced an additional hurdle--I really was smarter than my teachers. In college, there were those kids who excelled in some specialized field (chemistry or calculus or something), but even if they smoked me in that class, I still knew that my base of knowledge was broader than theirs. But law school was an entirely new experience. I was suddenly the slow kid in class. I spent my college years drinking and playing and skipping class, and I still made A's and B's. In law school, I worked myself to the bone and prayed constantly to just not flunk out. When I look back on my classmates, they still amaze me.

If you can at all avoid it, do not take an "extended" program where you work part-time and go to law school part-time. Sort of like language classes benefit from "immersion," you really need to dive in all the way. Save your pennies, pare your life down to its economic essentials, quit your job, and go all in.

Regarding JAG, give it a lot of thought. If you are convinced that JAG is what you want, I would encourage you to talk to someone from the Air Force JAG. Their program differs in an important way. In the Army or Navy (which includes the Marines), you will be trained for one job and that will be your job. It can be something as mundane as preparing wills for servicemen and not being granted the discretion to make any meaningful changes to the form documents that you are given. That job would suck. The Air Force rotates people through different positions. So you will get more experience (broader experience) than you would with the other branches. I'm not trying to sell you on the Air Force, but that is something to look at. Personally, I would only join the military if my goal was to be a trained killer. (To quote Private Joker: to travel to exotic distant lands, meet exciting and unusual people, and kill them.) I see no other purpose for it. Also keep in mind--ten years is a long time. And they may assign you to a role that you hate, and when you leave and hang out a shingle you will be starting from square one with something more suited to you.

Overall, I like my profession and I would encourage law school. Another benefit (appropriate to the board) is that being a lawyer today is about as close as you can get to being a gunslinger. Nobody messes with us. Nobody dares threaten to sue me. Consider this: when Gabe Suarez wants to threaten a man, he doesn't thrust a pistol into his face; he threatens to call in his lawyers.

[Al Lipscomb]

I work for a pretty large law firm (not a lawyer, just a bit fiddler) and there are some impressive people in the field. I know some came from a military background but I don't know if any were JAGs. If you see something you like, go for it. But be careful about taking a path because it looks like a good idea and the government is paying for it.

[Mr. Anthony]

You are not as smart as you think you are. From kindergarten through college, I really cannot recall a time when I was not the smartest guy in the room. I know that sounds arrogant, but it is also true. When I look back on those teenage years, when every kid is convinced that he is smarter than his teachers, I now see that I faced an additional hurdle--I really was smarter than my teachers. In college, there were those kids who excelled in some specialized field (chemistry or calculus or something), but even if they smoked me in that class, I still knew that my base of knowledge was broader than theirs. But law school was an entirely new experience. I was suddenly the slow kid in class. I spent my college years drinking and playing and skipping class, and I still made A's and B's. In law school, I worked myself to the bone and prayed constantly to just not flunk out. When I look back on my classmates, they still amaze me.



I think this was the biggest revelation for me, also. I never, and I mean NEVER, had to study all the way up through college--maybe skim back over some stuff the night before the test. That first semester my 1L year was perhaps the biggest wakeup call of my life--I really thought I was studying harder than I ever had before, but that first round of finals was absolutely brutal and terrifying. And not nearly as successful as I expected. Studying with other people? Holy crap were some of them smarter.

In the end, that part of it was really good for me--I realized I could always work harder to get better results. And I got much better at the nuts and bolts of sitting down and working my academic butt off.

Although the last few years I've started noticing I DO think I know it all again...

[EDELWEISS]

Im inclined to say "Paper Chase"; but that may a bit dated. So how'bout this, have you taken the LSATs yet? What are the Navy's requirements for the program AND what happens if you don't graduate from Law School--Cook??? Take this from a former MP, the military NEEDS good lawyers, and since you've been around here for awhile youll be more "military oriented" then most of your colleagues; but they most likely wont appreciate you for it. Good Luck

[LawDog]

I was just reminded of a guy I met recently. I don't even remember his name, because he disappeared so soon. He came up to Alaska to clerk for a judge. He sat for the bar (and passed) while he was here. He had paid his own way (or borrowed his own way) through law school. Then he joined JAG (I'm not clear on what branch--I heard both Army and Navy) because they agreed to forgive all of his student loans. That was a six-figure number.

JAG doesn't stop being an option after law school. And you usually get more when you start from a stronger negotiating position.

[CaptBeach]

Travis,

You got a pretty damned good head on your shoulders son...if you want to be a lawyer jump all over it...you'd make a great one...

Capt Beach

[Housertl]

I'll clarify more later when I can type on a real keyboard, but I am currently active duty enlisted, already into the navy for at least 5 more years, and have the chance to apply for a new program that would pay for law school, bar exams, the whole kit and caboodle, and pay me full pay and allowances with essentially no responsibility other than school. I feel like I am SUITED to the work, just not sure if I would enjoy it or not. I won't be able to take the LSAT until Oct, and packages aren't due until Dec, so I have time.

[EDELWEISS]

The more my PD pisses me off with blatant violations of rights just to "make arrests"; the more Ive been thinking about the OTHER side of the LAW. Im seriously considering taking the LSATs, then maybe sit for the Bar exam. Imagine if I pass--what a Hoot that would be:bliss:. My attorney friends tell me it can be done; but no one would let me practice. Hell I don't want to practice, just sit in the back row of the District Court when I retire, to keep everyone honest.

[LawDog]

My attorney friends tell me it can be done; but no one would let me practice. Hell I don't want to practice, just sit in the back row of the District Court when I retire, to keep everyone honest.Go for it. With a license to practice law, no one "lets you" do anything. You just do it and smile at them. Even without a law degree, a small number of police trickle over to our side to work as investigators. They are invaluable.

Housertl, it sounds like you are in a good position for it. If you can get paid and be a full-time student, that's a sweet set-up. A law degree is simply a first step. Getting a job you like is the step beyond it. Will you find something you like? I don't know. I know plenty of miserable lawyers. But I also know happy ones. The advice I'd give you there follows the advice you would get for other jobs. Look at where you will be living, who you will be working with, and what you will be doing. Don't choose a job based just on salary. I could probably double my income if I was willing to be miserable. But I've found a position with adequate pay, a good working environment, colleagues that I enjoy working with, and a mission that I believe in. There are very few people who look back and say, "Damn. I wish I hadn't gotten that degree."

[jdonne]

I wrote a long missive and it went to the dungheap of the interwebs, so here is the shortened version...
I like being a lawyer. I LOVED being a public defender. I did not like being in private practice. I enjoy, but have a respectful fear of, being a prosecutor.
I have spent 16 years dealing with the public. Some people are nice, but a large portion are the kind of folk that knock you up from condition yellow when you see them out on the street. Seeing what I've seen is why I'm at WT, carry and train. I don't make friends.

The practice of law is a business, at the end of the day, if you hang out your shingle. Clients = the potential for money. Paying clients = $.

If I were doing law school with the thought of doing jag, I'd plan on staying in twenty years. I'd try to get whatever retirement I could vested and get myself on good footing to hang out my shingle. Lots of lawyers make lots of money. But, lots of lawyers also wait tables. Find a niche that fits for where you live, that you love and is very marketable. Also, the down side about law is that people come into contact with you when things are going wrong... not before they have gone wrong, nor after they are good again. That tells you who you're dealing with it. They have issues. Being stable financially means you don't have to take the crappy case with the crappy client at the end of the month just because the mortgage is due.

Some people don't like lawyers... *yawn* I've gotten dicked over more by my plumber and car mechanic than any attorney. I'd say most people in general have too, but that's not who they complain about. Bottom line, folks just like to complain. LawDog had it right with his gunslinger comment.

Like anything, it's fun if you love it and do it right. If you don't with either you might as well dig ditches.

[42Willys]

Houser,

These guys have some good advice. Only take on law school if you know you really want to be a lawyer. Only do it if you know what you want to do with it. I will say I have never regretted joining the Navy.

The great thing about the enlisted to JAG program is the fact that you won't have any student loans to pay back. Many of my peers are heavily weighed down with student loan debt. It is a heavy burden you wouldn't have to carry around if the Navy pays.

I think you'd be a swell Judge Advocate, and I wish there were more of them like you now. So out of blatant self interest, I say go for it.

As far as practicing in a specific speciality, etc., give me a call and I'll give you the latest and greatest.

R/

[cosmotopper]

Housertl: I agree completely with CaptBeach. Forget the naysayers and go for it. It's your time. We've trained with you and witnessed your growth and development and your travails. The past has made this a possibility. Doors open and close rapidly in life. If you let it go by you'll always wonder.